Home Technical Talk

How The F*#% Do I Model This? - Reply for help with specific shapes - (Post attempt before asking)

Replies

  • perna
    Offline / Send Message
    perna quad damage
    @Filip5 , I don't know whether you're making hipoly, lowpoly, blockout, whether you're going to bake, what your target tricount is, texture resolution, etc. There are a million factors. You say "complicate the model", but what does that mean? I can see how complication would apply to a hipoly mesh, since you need control loops and that, but for a lowpoly mesh I don't know what that would mean, and it looks like you're making a lowpoly... and you talk about topology, which isn't really relevant for a lowpoly. So it's quite hard to know exactly what you want to know. Believe me, I'm trying.
  • final_fight
    Offline / Send Message
    final_fight polycounter lvl 6
    Does anybody know script analog of Turn to Poly standard modifier that doest the job better?
  • perna
    Offline / Send Message
    perna quad damage
  • perna
    Offline / Send Message
    perna quad damage
    Well anyway, I put together this script which will be quite handy if you're used to converting the base object to epoly manually. Works on multiple selections:

    macroScript PER_convert_selected_objects_to_epoly
    category: "per3d"
    toolTip:"convert selected objects to epoly"
    (
        on execute do
        (
            if selection.count > 0 then
            (
                with redraw off
                (
                    max modify mode
                    selection_bak = getCurrentSelection()
                    for obj in selection_bak do
                    (
                        modPanel.setCurrentObject obj.baseObject
                        modPanel.addModToSelection (Turn_to_Poly ()) ui:off
                        maxOps.CollapseNodeTo obj (obj.modifiers.count) off
                    )
                )
                select selection_bak
            )
        )
    )
    
    <br>
  • Nominous
    Offline / Send Message
    Nominous polycounter lvl 6

    perna said:



    Hi, I'm trying to recreate the quad sphere with flat sides (all the way back from pg. 20 of this thread, lol), but I can't seem to scale the secondary cube in order to avoid tris. For the quad sphere, I'm using a 4x4x4 cube with Spherify > Turbosmooth (1 iteration) > Spherify applied, which I believe is as round a sphere as it can get at that resolution.



    I tried deleting the last Spherify modifier, but it hardly changed the topology. You mentioned your method requires zero cleanup, so I'm curious how you created your quad sphere.
  • perna
    Offline / Send Message
    perna quad damage
    @Karnaj , it looks like if you scale down the cube you'll get all quads, but it'll be tight on the narrow parts.

    My QuadSphere script was written a long time ago and gives different results from "Spherize Box", which pinches near the edges.

    Try one of the QuadSphere scripts out there or experiment with a variation of this stack:

    • Spherize
    • Relax
    • Spherize
    • Cube





    Edit: This one looks good
  • Nominous
    Offline / Send Message
    Nominous polycounter lvl 6
    @perna Awesome, thanks a bunch for the help. It's a no-go for my original quad sphere since scaling the cube down as small as possible still results in tris. I tried the stack you suggested with various Relax values, but it still results in an imperfect sphere and tris. It's probably because I'm unaware of the magic values/combination of modifers.

    I saw the script page and the subdiv 1 sphere immediately reminded me of ZBrush, so I created a perfect quad sphere in there and exported an .obj to Max. With Turbosmooth on it, it seems to give the same results as yours. :)



    The only question I have left is how you scaled the ProBoolean cube down to line up perfectly with the quad sphere's vertices. I did this by selecting each face and vertex-snapping to the respective vertices around the poles. It's fast enough, but is there a way to do this faster?
  • perna
    Offline / Send Message
    perna quad damage
    @Karnaj , I just used the spinner while holding ALT to get more accurate values. I tried to work out a mathematical formula, but that needs custom handling based on whether or not the QuadSphere has an odd or even number of sides (since the shape is not an actual sphere, but polygons approximating one, the intersection with the cube varies based on the density of the quadSphere)

    Maybe I missed something, but since we don't make hundreds of these a minute it shouldn't matter, efficiency-wise.
  • musashidan
    Offline / Send Message
    musashidan high dynamic range
    perna said:

    Let's flip the question around: Why do you prefer OpenSubDiv? In my experience it has been very buggy and unreliable.



    @perna Just habit, as well, I suppose. Based on a few factors:

    When Turbosmooth was first introduced we all had shit ram and it was its namesake over MS. When OpenSD came along I was creating a lot of offline rendertime sub-div models at the time and the old problem of linear Vs smooth UVs in Max was better (somewhat)solved with OpenSD. I have had it added to my custom modifier stack since then. Also, the fact that OpenSD defaults to isoline display and collapses to Epoly.(although I have collapse to Epoly hotkeyed so not as much of an annoyance)



  • dlz
    Offline / Send Message
    dlz polycounter lvl 3
    any way to get rid of that artifacts ?
    should i change the topology or try a diferent aproach?
    what will be your process to make that in maya?
     

  • Frank Horrigan
    Offline / Send Message
    Frank Horrigan polycounter lvl 7
    Hello!
    Help me please with this shapes


    [spoiler]


    [/spoiler]
  • Klawd
    Offline / Send Message
    Klawd polycounter lvl 4
    Hello technical polycounters,
    first time asking for help, could you point me in the right direction in modeling this one? It's giving me an headache...

  • Neox
    Offline / Send Message
    Neox ngon master
    Klawd said:
    Hello technical polycounters,
    first time asking for help, could you point me in the right direction in modeling this one? It's giving me an headache...

    what do you expect people to do with this request?

    Whats your take on it so far?

    To me it looks like a bunch of primitives and some additive/subtractive bools to get the basic shape.
  • Klawd
    Offline / Send Message
    Klawd polycounter lvl 4
    Just asking for a hint in the right direction, like what technique you would use to approach it. How exactly would you go at it with basic booleans? What after the basic shape? I find the main piece that goes from cube to circle easy to obtain with subd, but then I'm lost as how to add the side cylinder. 

    Now after an hour or two of headaches I'm managing some basic results using modo mesh fusion... 

  • perna
    Offline / Send Message
    perna quad damage
    @Klawd , block it out first, without worrying about subd.

    The main shape here is a circle-to-square transition, a curved cutout from that, and then the simple extrusions. That's a very structured, clean process. Your modo result, however, indicates that you do not see the underlying structure and instead interpret the whole thing as small, discrete shapes, leading to a blobby, hand-tweaked result.

    In order to figure out the construction, imagine what the largest shape would be if you removed extrusions and cutouts, and then just reverse that process.

    Give that a shot, and if there's still struggle I'm sure someone will help out with more concrete advice.
  • perna
    Offline / Send Message
    perna quad damage
    Sorry, missed this part the first time around:

    "I find the main piece that goes from cube to circle easy to obtain with subd"

    Well, you're not even close. Just letting you know, otherwise you'll never get this done right. You complicate what is actually a clean, straight-forward form.
  • MisterWolfen
    Offline / Send Message
    MisterWolfen polycounter lvl 4
    I've got a quick question, glancing over the responses in the thread I see people saying that pentagons, and 8 sided faces are useful for this model, I'm more of a character modeller so I'm not really educated in advanced object modelling, but I thought pretty much any type of ngon was bad, maybe someone can shed some light on this for me?
  • Neox
    Offline / Send Message
    Neox ngon master
    I've got a quick question, glancing over the responses in the thread I see people saying that pentagons, and 8 sided faces are useful for this model, I'm more of a character modeller so I'm not really educated in advanced object modelling, but I thought pretty much any type of ngon was bad, maybe someone can shed some light on this for me?
    Why did you think so?

    There are cases where Ngons or tris are bad, there are cases where they are good. It all depends on the context.
  • Klawd
    Offline / Send Message
    Klawd polycounter lvl 4
    perna said:
    @Klawd , block it out first, without worrying about subd.

    The main shape here is a circle-to-square transition, a curved cutout from that, and then the simple extrusions. That's a very structured, clean process. Your modo result, however, indicates that you do not see the underlying structure and instead interpret the whole thing as small, discrete shapes, leading to a blobby, hand-tweaked result.

    In order to figure out the construction, imagine what the largest shape would be if you removed extrusions and cutouts, and then just reverse that process.

    Give that a shot, and if there's still struggle I'm sure someone will help out with more concrete advice.
    Thanks @perna I can see the wisdom in the advice, but still I struggle in imagining it as a whole piece, escpecially because of the right side. Its asymmetry is what makes it difficult for me. The extrusion on top that seems simple has the two sides also asymmetrical complicating things.
    Anyway, I managed this with modo mesh fusion and although not perfect it's close enough and will do for the model I'm working on:

  • musashidan
    Offline / Send Message
    musashidan high dynamic range
    I've got a quick question, glancing over the responses in the thread I see people saying that pentagons, and 8 sided faces are useful for this model, I'm more of a character modeller so I'm not really educated in advanced object modelling, but I thought pretty much any type of ngon was bad, maybe someone can shed some light on this for me?
    Someday.....someday soon this myth might just be dispelled once and for all.

    This is something that has been misunderstood by so many people for so many years. Yes, quads can be predictable. Quads can be nice. Quads can make your life easier. But, ngons can be nice too. 6+ valence poles.....not nice.

    As for hard-surface modeling. I don't build without n-gons.

    Here's an example of a very old(2003) Steven Stahlberg topology. See?  Nice n-gons.


  • MisterWolfen
    Offline / Send Message
    MisterWolfen polycounter lvl 4
    @musashidan hmm, ok fair enough, can't say I've ever really seen much stuff on ngons so it's really hard to know much about them haha
  • musashidan
    Offline / Send Message
    musashidan high dynamic range
    @perna I blame shitty 'CG colleges' and their ignorant 'professors' I never went to college for this stuff myself but the amount of emails/PMs I get from people learning telling me 'well, my lecturer said this......' Pure bullshit. And then that gospel spreads.

    As well as obviously self-experimentation (which is the best learning) we can also rely on our trusty 'times tables'......3x4=12....5x4=20...6×4=24....7×4=28......and on it goes....the theory of subdividing a non-quad face.
  • Dave_W
    Offline / Send Message
    Dave_W polycounter lvl 7
    perna said:
    ...why some people stop at the research stage and never, ever, try to actually just... do it.
    Fear of failure and it looking shit. Some people want to get it right first time.
  • musashidan
    Offline / Send Message
    musashidan high dynamic range
    Dave_W said:
    perna said:
    ...why some people stop at the research stage and never, ever, try to actually just... do it.
    Fear of failure and it looking shit. Some people want to get it right first time.
    How can you fail at experimenting on research? What other way is there to truly learn?
  • musashidan
    Offline / Send Message
    musashidan high dynamic range
    dlz said:
    any way to get rid of that artifacts ?
     
    N-gons!! Have you not been following the thread? ;)
  • Pedro Amorim
    Dave_W said:
    perna said:
    ...why some people stop at the research stage and never, ever, try to actually just... do it.
    Fear of failure and it looking shit. Some people want to get it right first time.

    That's called procrastination
  • perna
    Offline / Send Message
    perna quad damage
    Dave_W said:
    perna said:
    ...why some people stop at the research stage and never, ever, try to actually just... do it.
    Fear of failure and it looking shit. Some people want to get it right first time.
    I don't see how any of that pertains to a technical exercise; it can by definition never be a failure, neither can it look bad. Getting something right the first time is impossible, and even moreso if you don't bother doing the practical research first.

  • Neox
    Offline / Send Message
    Neox ngon master
    experience is something you can not shortcut. you have to experience it, be it through failure or success. 
  • JordanN
    Offline / Send Message
    JordanN interpolator
    @perna I blame shitty 'CG colleges' and their ignorant 'professors' I never went to college for this stuff myself but the amount of emails/PMs I get from people learning telling me 'well, my lecturer said this......' Pure bullshit. And then that gospel spreads.

    I think when it comes to professors, there's always a half story being retold by a student.

    When I was in school, modeling was often taught by the professor doing a real time demo. Or for teachers who did come from the industry, they personally showed us their models they had made for games/movies. There was nothing wrong with us asking questions or inquiring about the process. 

    I think when students take certain things for gospel, they themselves are not thinking about their own work. If I ever felt something was suspect, I actually hopped on Polycount during class and would cross examine course material with that of what I found on here. 

    On topic: I like that hand by Stalhberg. I want to box model something just like it for my game.  B)
  • bitinn
    Offline / Send Message
    bitinn polycounter lvl 3
    Hi all

    I have a chamfered edge and 2 intersecting grid lines, which forms a triangle shape.

    If I now want to add an actual triangle polygon there. Besides extruding the edge to the grid node, and cut out the extra part. What other faster option do I have?

    Can I add edges along the grid line?

    (Edit: I am using Maya 2017)


  • throttlekitty
    Offline / Send Message
    throttlekitty Polycount Sponsor
    @bitinn since it's on the grid, you can add an edge to the middle of your bevel and snap it to the grid if i understand you correctly. Then use Connect on the previous two.


  • Bek
    Offline / Send Message
    Bek greentooth
    Someday.....someday soon this [n-gon's are bad] myth might just be dispelled once and for all.
    One reason this myth is still alive and kicking is that quad's-only actually is a requirement — or so I'm told — for film (Pixar) with meshes that deform. So it's not unreasonable to assume that advice gets repeated out of context and you get people busting a gut trying to make a hard surface asset that's only for baking and won't deform with quads only. But like with anything you're told, the best thing you can do is put it to the test.
  • bitinn
    Offline / Send Message
    bitinn polycounter lvl 3
    @bitinn since it's on the grid, you can add an edge to the middle of your bevel and snap it to the grid if i understand you correctly. Then use Connect on the previous two.


    Sorry I should have qualified my question better. I meant going from my original picture to this:



    I usually do this by extruding the edge to point 2 grid line intersects, and use multi-cut tool to cut out the extra part. I was wondering there are any faster options:



  • [Deleted User]
    Offline / Send Message
    [Deleted User] insane polycounter
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • bitinn
    Offline / Send Message
    bitinn polycounter lvl 3
    extrude then merge verts to center then snap the vert to grid?
    Merge To Center is gold!
  • Nominous
    Offline / Send Message
    Nominous polycounter lvl 6
    @Klawd I gave it a shot, and that asymmetrical extrusion was indeed confusing. The solution would've been quickly apparent if there were any front view references online, but I couldn't find any for this object (Kriss Vector M4 Stock Adapter). I think it worked out okay besides the manual loop scaling in order to connect a few of the top-right corner edges of the front circle to the extrusion. I didn't use booleans except at the very end for the bottom cutout.





    Smoothing groups were a pain to get right for quad chamfer. There's also quad chamfer-specific pinching where the front circle meets the top extrusion. The tightness of the support loop behind the front circle results in a max quad chamfer amount of 0.19 as well.

  • Klawd
    Offline / Send Message
    Klawd polycounter lvl 4
    Very nice result @Karnaj! Much more true to the original than mine: 





  • musashidan
    Offline / Send Message
    musashidan high dynamic range
    @karnaj if you're having issues with q chamfer being too tight you can either switch to standard chamfer or as a last resort add an edit poly above q chamfer and below your tsmooth and do some tweaks to relieve it.
  • logosm
    Offline / Send Message
    logosm polycounter lvl 9
    Hello! I think its a good topic to ask that question. I have simple mesh and I want to make equal distance between edges without moving red verts. How to do that?
  • musashidan
    Offline / Send Message
    musashidan high dynamic range
    @logosm this is not the purpose of this thread. This is more a question on how to use the basic modeling tools in Max.

    Select the top/bottom edgeloops and use the 'space' tool in the loop tools dialogue in graphite modeling tools.(You may have to select each section and hit the 'make planar' button, and reapply smoothing groups, afterwards)
  • Doguib7
    Offline / Send Message
    Doguib7 polycounter lvl 5
    Hey folks! Anyone have an Idea how to get a shader ball like this! It can be downloaded for free but I want to model it for study purposes! I am thinking to start with the base. Look at the attachment and please give me a path to follow! The suspension en pistons are not necesary!

    Thanks in advance!
  • perna
    Offline / Send Message
    perna quad damage
    @Doguib7 , try to form a concise technical question as opposed to "how to model this plz". What specifically are you struggling with and what have you tried to overcome the problem?
  • throttlekitty
    Offline / Send Message
    throttlekitty Polycount Sponsor
    @Doguib7 The context of this thread is help with specific shapes, such as asking why you are getting pinching in a specific place, or how to model a particular detail. We also expect to see some effort and thought laid out first, if you're asking for how to get started, make a new thread, your question is too broad for this thread.
  • ActionDawg
    Offline / Send Message
    ActionDawg greentooth
    If you can download it for free why not do so and study the model itself rather than a picture?
  • Zablorg
    Offline / Send Message
    Zablorg polycounter lvl 4
    Hi all,

    I have a variation on the standard question in this thread about indenting a shape from a cylinder. Bear with me! I know about offsetting the cylinder side so that they act as edge loops. What I'm actually curious about is the subsequent control edges from the shape you're indenting.

    Say I want to indent a very sharp square into my cylinder. I'd therefore want to have control edges running alongside the corners of the square, so that subdivision leaves the corners nice and crisp. But you can't let them ever escape on to the cylinder (at least the ones that run parallel to the cylinder edges) because that would mess the curvature! So would the appropriate solution be to just have them meet up at a single point before the edges flow back to the cylinder proper? This would make a 6-sided star, so I'm curious if that's negligible or not, and if there's a cleaner way to go about it.

    I'd experiment with this myself but I'm not really in a position to do so right now: Instead I sketched out this 2D version of the topology (i.e. laying everything flat in the xy plane, with each z-axis layer scaled in the xy plane so you can see it)- I hope it gets across what I'm talking about. The dotted lines are those that define the cylinder (being used as control loops). You can see that the innermost square has 12 vertices- 4 for the regular points you'd want from a square, and 8 more for the associated control edges.



    Sorry if this has been covered before- I've seen cases similar but none that seem to address this explicitly. If the problem statement isn't clear enough I can wait until I can actually model it up.



  • admiralpixel15
    Offline / Send Message
    admiralpixel15 polycounter lvl 2
    @Zablorg Is this what you meant? Please give a clear explanation of what you're asking and straight to the point. Also please show us some of your 3D work because we don't know where you're struggling with. Thanks.
  • Zablorg
    Offline / Send Message
    Zablorg polycounter lvl 4
    @Zablorg Is this what you meant? Please give a clear explanation of what you're asking and straight to the point. Also please show us some of your 3D work because we don't know where you're struggling with. Thanks.
    Not quite! That's an indent in the flat side of a cylinder, whereas I'm more talking about a protrusion/indentation out of the curved face(s).

    I appreciate that my description was probably pretty abstract, mostly because I couldn't get to a computer. I probably should have waited, with that in mind. Anyway, now that I can show you, here's what I'm working with:



    As you can see, the actual interfacing between the protrusion and the cylinder is looking good, because of application of Perna's lessons. But, say I want the protrusion to look more cubic, like its cage mesh. To do that I'd need some edges around the corners to define them more sharply.

    Basically, how would I get route vertical control edges for this protrusion? The following mockup solution results in some intense pinching, which I'd show but it obscures the wireframe.



    I could probably have the left-most control edge run around the perimeter of the cylinder without issue, but I'm more interested in the right edge loop and how to terminate it appropriately.
  • Zablorg
    Offline / Send Message
    Zablorg polycounter lvl 4


    Here's another solution I've tried. It seems to perform better pinch-wise, but results in some pretty wild bulging:


    Keen eyes might notice that I've removed the lower edge loop running around the bottom of the would-be cube. Including it doesn't change the problem fundamentally, it just makes the bulge a bit tighter and more pronounced.

  • perna
    Offline / Send Message
    perna quad damage
    Zablorg: You can use as many segments around the cylinder as you want, and place them anywhere, without affecting the form. So in your last post, there's no reason to move both control points away from the corner like that.
Sign In or Register to comment.