How The F*#% Do I Model This? - Reply for help with specific shapes - (Post attempt before asking)

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  • dlz
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    dlz polycounter lvl 2
    any way to get rid of that artifacts ?
    should i change the topology or try a diferent aproach?
    what will be your process to make that in maya?
     

  • Frank Horrigan
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    Frank Horrigan polycounter lvl 5
    Hello!
    Help me please with this shapes


    [spoiler]


    [/spoiler]
  • Klawd
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    Klawd polycounter lvl 3
    Hello technical polycounters,
    first time asking for help, could you point me in the right direction in modeling this one? It's giving me an headache...

  • Neox
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    Neox ngon master
    Klawd said:
    Hello technical polycounters,
    first time asking for help, could you point me in the right direction in modeling this one? It's giving me an headache...

    what do you expect people to do with this request?

    Whats your take on it so far?

    To me it looks like a bunch of primitives and some additive/subtractive bools to get the basic shape.
  • Klawd
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    Klawd polycounter lvl 3
    Just asking for a hint in the right direction, like what technique you would use to approach it. How exactly would you go at it with basic booleans? What after the basic shape? I find the main piece that goes from cube to circle easy to obtain with subd, but then I'm lost as how to add the side cylinder. 

    Now after an hour or two of headaches I'm managing some basic results using modo mesh fusion... 

  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    @Klawd , block it out first, without worrying about subd.

    The main shape here is a circle-to-square transition, a curved cutout from that, and then the simple extrusions. That's a very structured, clean process. Your modo result, however, indicates that you do not see the underlying structure and instead interpret the whole thing as small, discrete shapes, leading to a blobby, hand-tweaked result.

    In order to figure out the construction, imagine what the largest shape would be if you removed extrusions and cutouts, and then just reverse that process.

    Give that a shot, and if there's still struggle I'm sure someone will help out with more concrete advice.
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    Sorry, missed this part the first time around:

    "I find the main piece that goes from cube to circle easy to obtain with subd"

    Well, you're not even close. Just letting you know, otherwise you'll never get this done right. You complicate what is actually a clean, straight-forward form.
  • MisterWolfen
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    MisterWolfen polycounter lvl 3
    I've got a quick question, glancing over the responses in the thread I see people saying that pentagons, and 8 sided faces are useful for this model, I'm more of a character modeller so I'm not really educated in advanced object modelling, but I thought pretty much any type of ngon was bad, maybe someone can shed some light on this for me?
  • Neox
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    Neox ngon master
    I've got a quick question, glancing over the responses in the thread I see people saying that pentagons, and 8 sided faces are useful for this model, I'm more of a character modeller so I'm not really educated in advanced object modelling, but I thought pretty much any type of ngon was bad, maybe someone can shed some light on this for me?
    Why did you think so?

    There are cases where Ngons or tris are bad, there are cases where they are good. It all depends on the context.
  • Klawd
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    Klawd polycounter lvl 3
    perna said:
    @Klawd , block it out first, without worrying about subd.

    The main shape here is a circle-to-square transition, a curved cutout from that, and then the simple extrusions. That's a very structured, clean process. Your modo result, however, indicates that you do not see the underlying structure and instead interpret the whole thing as small, discrete shapes, leading to a blobby, hand-tweaked result.

    In order to figure out the construction, imagine what the largest shape would be if you removed extrusions and cutouts, and then just reverse that process.

    Give that a shot, and if there's still struggle I'm sure someone will help out with more concrete advice.
    Thanks @perna I can see the wisdom in the advice, but still I struggle in imagining it as a whole piece, escpecially because of the right side. Its asymmetry is what makes it difficult for me. The extrusion on top that seems simple has the two sides also asymmetrical complicating things.
    Anyway, I managed this with modo mesh fusion and although not perfect it's close enough and will do for the model I'm working on:

  • musashidan
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    musashidan insane polycounter
    I've got a quick question, glancing over the responses in the thread I see people saying that pentagons, and 8 sided faces are useful for this model, I'm more of a character modeller so I'm not really educated in advanced object modelling, but I thought pretty much any type of ngon was bad, maybe someone can shed some light on this for me?
    Someday.....someday soon this myth might just be dispelled once and for all.

    This is something that has been misunderstood by so many people for so many years. Yes, quads can be predictable. Quads can be nice. Quads can make your life easier. But, ngons can be nice too. 6+ valence poles.....not nice.

    As for hard-surface modeling. I don't build without n-gons.

    Here's an example of a very old(2003) Steven Stahlberg topology. See?  Nice n-gons.


  • MisterWolfen
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    MisterWolfen polycounter lvl 3
    @musashidan hmm, ok fair enough, can't say I've ever really seen much stuff on ngons so it's really hard to know much about them haha
  • musashidan
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    musashidan insane polycounter
    @perna I blame shitty 'CG colleges' and their ignorant 'professors' I never went to college for this stuff myself but the amount of emails/PMs I get from people learning telling me 'well, my lecturer said this......' Pure bullshit. And then that gospel spreads.

    As well as obviously self-experimentation (which is the best learning) we can also rely on our trusty 'times tables'......3x4=12....5x4=20...6×4=24....7×4=28......and on it goes....the theory of subdividing a non-quad face.
  • Dave_W
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    Dave_W polycounter lvl 7
    perna said:
    ...why some people stop at the research stage and never, ever, try to actually just... do it.
    Fear of failure and it looking shit. Some people want to get it right first time.
  • musashidan
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    musashidan insane polycounter
    Dave_W said:
    perna said:
    ...why some people stop at the research stage and never, ever, try to actually just... do it.
    Fear of failure and it looking shit. Some people want to get it right first time.
    How can you fail at experimenting on research? What other way is there to truly learn?
  • musashidan
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    musashidan insane polycounter
    dlz said:
    any way to get rid of that artifacts ?
     
    N-gons!! Have you not been following the thread? ;)
  • Pedro Amorim
    Dave_W said:
    perna said:
    ...why some people stop at the research stage and never, ever, try to actually just... do it.
    Fear of failure and it looking shit. Some people want to get it right first time.

    That's called procrastination
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    Dave_W said:
    perna said:
    ...why some people stop at the research stage and never, ever, try to actually just... do it.
    Fear of failure and it looking shit. Some people want to get it right first time.
    I don't see how any of that pertains to a technical exercise; it can by definition never be a failure, neither can it look bad. Getting something right the first time is impossible, and even moreso if you don't bother doing the practical research first.

  • Neox
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    Neox ngon master
    experience is something you can not shortcut. you have to experience it, be it through failure or success. 
  • JordanN
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    JordanN interpolator
    @perna I blame shitty 'CG colleges' and their ignorant 'professors' I never went to college for this stuff myself but the amount of emails/PMs I get from people learning telling me 'well, my lecturer said this......' Pure bullshit. And then that gospel spreads.

    I think when it comes to professors, there's always a half story being retold by a student.

    When I was in school, modeling was often taught by the professor doing a real time demo. Or for teachers who did come from the industry, they personally showed us their models they had made for games/movies. There was nothing wrong with us asking questions or inquiring about the process. 

    I think when students take certain things for gospel, they themselves are not thinking about their own work. If I ever felt something was suspect, I actually hopped on Polycount during class and would cross examine course material with that of what I found on here. 

    On topic: I like that hand by Stalhberg. I want to box model something just like it for my game.  B)
  • bitinn
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    bitinn polycounter lvl 2
    Hi all

    I have a chamfered edge and 2 intersecting grid lines, which forms a triangle shape.

    If I now want to add an actual triangle polygon there. Besides extruding the edge to the grid node, and cut out the extra part. What other faster option do I have?

    Can I add edges along the grid line?

    (Edit: I am using Maya 2017)


  • throttlekitty
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    throttlekitty Polycount Sponsor
    @bitinn since it's on the grid, you can add an edge to the middle of your bevel and snap it to the grid if i understand you correctly. Then use Connect on the previous two.


  • Bek
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    Bek greentooth
    Someday.....someday soon this [n-gon's are bad] myth might just be dispelled once and for all.
    One reason this myth is still alive and kicking is that quad's-only actually is a requirement — or so I'm told — for film (Pixar) with meshes that deform. So it's not unreasonable to assume that advice gets repeated out of context and you get people busting a gut trying to make a hard surface asset that's only for baking and won't deform with quads only. But like with anything you're told, the best thing you can do is put it to the test.
  • bitinn
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    bitinn polycounter lvl 2
    @bitinn since it's on the grid, you can add an edge to the middle of your bevel and snap it to the grid if i understand you correctly. Then use Connect on the previous two.


    Sorry I should have qualified my question better. I meant going from my original picture to this:



    I usually do this by extruding the edge to point 2 grid line intersects, and use multi-cut tool to cut out the extra part. I was wondering there are any faster options:



  • [Deleted User]
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    [Deleted User] insane polycounter
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • bitinn
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    bitinn polycounter lvl 2
    extrude then merge verts to center then snap the vert to grid?
    Merge To Center is gold!
  • Nominous
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    Nominous polycounter lvl 5
    @Klawd I gave it a shot, and that asymmetrical extrusion was indeed confusing. The solution would've been quickly apparent if there were any front view references online, but I couldn't find any for this object (Kriss Vector M4 Stock Adapter). I think it worked out okay besides the manual loop scaling in order to connect a few of the top-right corner edges of the front circle to the extrusion. I didn't use booleans except at the very end for the bottom cutout.





    Smoothing groups were a pain to get right for quad chamfer. There's also quad chamfer-specific pinching where the front circle meets the top extrusion. The tightness of the support loop behind the front circle results in a max quad chamfer amount of 0.19 as well.

  • Klawd
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    Klawd polycounter lvl 3
    Very nice result @Karnaj! Much more true to the original than mine: 





  • musashidan
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    musashidan insane polycounter
    @karnaj if you're having issues with q chamfer being too tight you can either switch to standard chamfer or as a last resort add an edit poly above q chamfer and below your tsmooth and do some tweaks to relieve it.
  • logosm
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    logosm polycounter lvl 9
    Hello! I think its a good topic to ask that question. I have simple mesh and I want to make equal distance between edges without moving red verts. How to do that?
  • musashidan
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    musashidan insane polycounter
    @logosm this is not the purpose of this thread. This is more a question on how to use the basic modeling tools in Max.

    Select the top/bottom edgeloops and use the 'space' tool in the loop tools dialogue in graphite modeling tools.(You may have to select each section and hit the 'make planar' button, and reapply smoothing groups, afterwards)
  • Doguib7
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    Doguib7 polycounter lvl 5
    Hey folks! Anyone have an Idea how to get a shader ball like this! It can be downloaded for free but I want to model it for study purposes! I am thinking to start with the base. Look at the attachment and please give me a path to follow! The suspension en pistons are not necesary!

    Thanks in advance!
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    @Doguib7 , try to form a concise technical question as opposed to "how to model this plz". What specifically are you struggling with and what have you tried to overcome the problem?
  • throttlekitty
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    throttlekitty Polycount Sponsor
    @Doguib7 The context of this thread is help with specific shapes, such as asking why you are getting pinching in a specific place, or how to model a particular detail. We also expect to see some effort and thought laid out first, if you're asking for how to get started, make a new thread, your question is too broad for this thread.
  • somedoggy
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    somedoggy greentooth
    If you can download it for free why not do so and study the model itself rather than a picture?
  • Zablorg
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    Zablorg polycounter lvl 4
    Hi all,

    I have a variation on the standard question in this thread about indenting a shape from a cylinder. Bear with me! I know about offsetting the cylinder side so that they act as edge loops. What I'm actually curious about is the subsequent control edges from the shape you're indenting.

    Say I want to indent a very sharp square into my cylinder. I'd therefore want to have control edges running alongside the corners of the square, so that subdivision leaves the corners nice and crisp. But you can't let them ever escape on to the cylinder (at least the ones that run parallel to the cylinder edges) because that would mess the curvature! So would the appropriate solution be to just have them meet up at a single point before the edges flow back to the cylinder proper? This would make a 6-sided star, so I'm curious if that's negligible or not, and if there's a cleaner way to go about it.

    I'd experiment with this myself but I'm not really in a position to do so right now: Instead I sketched out this 2D version of the topology (i.e. laying everything flat in the xy plane, with each z-axis layer scaled in the xy plane so you can see it)- I hope it gets across what I'm talking about. The dotted lines are those that define the cylinder (being used as control loops). You can see that the innermost square has 12 vertices- 4 for the regular points you'd want from a square, and 8 more for the associated control edges.



    Sorry if this has been covered before- I've seen cases similar but none that seem to address this explicitly. If the problem statement isn't clear enough I can wait until I can actually model it up.



  • admiralpixel15
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    admiralpixel15 polycounter lvl 2
    @Zablorg Is this what you meant? Please give a clear explanation of what you're asking and straight to the point. Also please show us some of your 3D work because we don't know where you're struggling with. Thanks.
  • Zablorg
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    Zablorg polycounter lvl 4
    @Zablorg Is this what you meant? Please give a clear explanation of what you're asking and straight to the point. Also please show us some of your 3D work because we don't know where you're struggling with. Thanks.
    Not quite! That's an indent in the flat side of a cylinder, whereas I'm more talking about a protrusion/indentation out of the curved face(s).

    I appreciate that my description was probably pretty abstract, mostly because I couldn't get to a computer. I probably should have waited, with that in mind. Anyway, now that I can show you, here's what I'm working with:



    As you can see, the actual interfacing between the protrusion and the cylinder is looking good, because of application of Perna's lessons. But, say I want the protrusion to look more cubic, like its cage mesh. To do that I'd need some edges around the corners to define them more sharply.

    Basically, how would I get route vertical control edges for this protrusion? The following mockup solution results in some intense pinching, which I'd show but it obscures the wireframe.



    I could probably have the left-most control edge run around the perimeter of the cylinder without issue, but I'm more interested in the right edge loop and how to terminate it appropriately.
  • Zablorg
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    Zablorg polycounter lvl 4


    Here's another solution I've tried. It seems to perform better pinch-wise, but results in some pretty wild bulging:


    Keen eyes might notice that I've removed the lower edge loop running around the bottom of the would-be cube. Including it doesn't change the problem fundamentally, it just makes the bulge a bit tighter and more pronounced.

  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    Zablorg: You can use as many segments around the cylinder as you want, and place them anywhere, without affecting the form. So in your last post, there's no reason to move both control points away from the corner like that.
  • admiralpixel15
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    admiralpixel15 polycounter lvl 2
    @Zablorg Here's the one from Perna's SubD tutorials. Hope that helps your issue.

  • Zablorg
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    Zablorg polycounter lvl 4
    perna said:
    Zablorg: You can use as many segments around the cylinder as you want, and place them anywhere, without affecting the form. So in your last post, there's no reason to move both control points away from the corner like that.

    Interesting. Not quite sure what this means, though - could you clarify what segments you're referring to? Are you suggesting I increase the resolution of the main cylinder and allow its edges to become the controls? That's what your tutorial that Pixel posted seems to do, at any rate. I had considered doing that, but I thought it might be overkill and was holding out for something else.

    Or are you referring to edges that flow around the perimeter of the cylinder? I'm aware I can add those as I wish, but routing both controls in that direction seems difficult. One is already flowing in that direction, however, so routing it is trivial.

    Anyway, the tutorial addresses what I was after, so I'd consider this "solved". Thanks all!
  • HAWK12HT
  • Justo
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    Justo interpolator
    What's a non-destructive, simple way of making a woven basket? I got it working with 4 instanced strips, 2 vertical and 2 horizontal  (one going underneath, one going outwards) . The problem with this is that I wouldn't be able to adjust the pattern size if I wanted without some manual work, like even replacing the whole base strips. Is there a more efficient way of doing this? 


  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    @Justo ,

    For actual games production I would just take two minutes to add some 2D bump noise to a normal map and avoid an over-complicated solution. Is there any reason that's not good enough, like for example is this some kind of theoretical exercise?
  • Justo
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    Justo interpolator
    Hi Per, yeah, I usually do that too for game art :) And yes, there is a special reason I'm doing this, and it's because it was supposed to be for a render, where I was required to model the micro detail. 
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    If you're not required to make a specific wicker design, pick the one with the best balance of ease of production and aesthetics. A quick search gave me this, which should be straight-forward: 

    If on the other hand you're bound to an exact design, do you have refs for that?

    Also it's important to establish to which degree you want the object to be parametric. Which would the parameters be exactly?

    What I'm trying to say is that the task should be strictly defined. If your posts here were from a client, I would tell them the task is too vaguely defined.
  • Justo
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    Justo interpolator
    Thank you for sharing the video Per, I can't see it from this PC because YT is blocked, but I'll check it at home. It's a small background thing based from a low res image from the client so I don't think they're asking for anything too specific, and of course I chose something that was easier to do. 

    Also it's important to establish to which degree you want the object to be parametric. Which would the parameters be exactly?
    EVERYTHING PAPA. I mean, that'd be the biggest dream, right? If not, it'd be nice to be able to adjust only the tiling of the effect.
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