How The F*#% Do I Model This? - Reply for help with specific shapes - (Post attempt before asking)

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  • Vent
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    Vent polycounter lvl 7
    Long time lurker, first time poster.

    This might seem like a fairly simple shape, but I'm having some trouble with it. I'm pretty bad with topology.

    This is what I'm attempting.



    And this is my attempt. It feels messy, and wrong. I've been doing this for a while, but I'm a novice when it comes to subdivision modelling. 



    Any help is much appreciated, thanks!

    Edit: I attempted to fix the triangle problem, but I still feel like I'm going about this wrong. With this flow how would I place edge loops without disrupting the curve of the front of the receiver?

  • GhostDetector
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    GhostDetector polycounter lvl 5
    @Vent

    The most important part is to make sure the edge of the cylinder is creases the 1/2 cylinder.  This preserves the circle.

    I did make a mistake on this and I didn't notice that the edge is beveled.  Nonetheless you should be able to figure out the rest.



  • perna
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    perna ngon master
    Vent: Simply draw, in 2d, lines on where the hard edges go on the photo ref. Now do the same on your model. You'll find they don't match at all. What you're having here is not a technical modeling problem, you have a problem seeing the ref.

    Once you've seen what the shape actually is you will find it easy to model.

    If you run into problems after this, post your overpaints and I'll let you know what's going wrong.
  • sheheryar_noor
  • heklis
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    heklis polycounter lvl 8
    sheheryar_noor

    Not super correct with some friendly ngons maybe someone show you better topo...
  • sheheryar_noor
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    sheheryar_noor polycounter lvl 4
    I appreciate your [email protected] But the problem (either i am seeing and understanding it wrong) is the top area.
    I see this part as " " Bottom part(cylinder) and the top part are attached/welded till red line .In your result http://prntscr.com/f0bs9v top and bottom parts are attached till small red line, and green line shows to have the attachment below i will have to extrude more polygon till green line.
    After seeing your result an idea just hit me, will post my another try. Thanks for helping


  • perna
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    perna ngon master
    @sheheryar_noor & @heklis

    Image below.

    Imagine how long it would take to weld every single line you indicated in red, for every single link on every single ammo belt produced...


  • heklis
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    heklis polycounter lvl 8
    @perna
    yep u are right i just check one picture and dont understand it. Its just one bended sheet of metal... I hope its right now.



  • sheheryar_noor
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    sheheryar_noor polycounter lvl 4
    Ty Perna and Heklis. Heklis i think your first attempt was OK.  Following Perna pattern(yellow line) i finally did it but single face (without shell). Now going to apply shell before extruding wings. Thanks [email protected] and Kelis
  • TheWiredFrame
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    TheWiredFrame polycounter lvl 5
    I've been trying to get back into modelling lately with Blender and decided to try doing a MiG-21 because I thought it looked reasonably straightforward as far as fighter jets go. The canopy is giving me major problems tho and despite many different approaches I just can't get my head around how to accurately reproduce the shape of the forward section.

    You can see what I'm talking about here:



    And also in a very nice 3D render from an angle to get a better idea of the exact shape here:



    Clearly, the canopy begins at the rear by being a simple cylinder shape extending from that "spine" or whatever on top of the aircraft. Going forward it gets more complicated. There's a kind of metal band going around the cylinder, then after that it appears the sides continue the cylindrical shape of the rear while tapering inward, with a flat section facing the pilot surrounded by a rounded metal frame.
    This front section is surprisingly complex and I'm especially not sure how to make the metal frame look right once I've approximated the shape. I found this video, which helped a bit...

    ...but I still can't create and position a cylinder where if I cut the front plane the sides will also look about right. Then I'm not sure about the complicated corners of the frame either and I'm not sure where I'd begin to do those properly.

    Whenever I try, it usually ends up looking like on the left here and then I'm not sure where to go. Probably more vertices would help, but I was originally planning to do it as low poly as I could, hoping it wouldn't take as long. Ironically going higher poly might make it easier to approximate...

    On the right is the same with Subdivision Surface and a 1.0 Edge Crease on the front face. That always seems to make the area around the crease look weird with the lighting etc. How should it be done to make it look somewhat like in the previous render? I'm not even aiming for a particularly high quality or level of realism here TBH, just something that looks recognizably like it portrays the general shape with some accuracy.
  • perna
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    perna ngon master
    @TheWiredFrame , I struggled a bit to understand what the issue is. I believe it can be boiled down to the topology of the triangular part of the canopy, which you now have represented as a triangle and quad (not going to subdivide too well).

    The following shows clean triangle topology. You'll have good flow and all-quads as long as at least two of the sides have the same number of edges.



  • GhostInTheShell
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    GhostInTheShell polycounter lvl 2
     Hi guys, i was attempting model muscles and trying to get the shapes of the fiber correctly, i have tons and tons of reference that i could get, i did a lot of alphas too, tryed nanomesh too, but i don't think that i get the aspect that i want yet, so if possible could you guys give me some insight on how i can approuch this?

     Thanks in advance.

    >some alphas that i did


    >some nanomesh attempting

  • Callisto
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    Callisto vertex
    Hello again, thank you very much for the answer, and I'm sorry for being inaccurate with rules. I have another question, about these corners. They get arcs when smoothed, what is an appropriate way to avoid that? I would also take any advices to make my geometry better. Thank you again.

  • NegInfinity
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    NegInfinity vertex
    Need advice with something. I'm using blender 3d.

    How do I model an "anime" head based on extremely stylized reference? 

    Example (please ignore messed up hair):
    model
    References used:

    Basically... heavily stylyzed head shape gives me grief and I'm not sure how to produce this kind of effect:
    With polygons.

    Any advice?  My issue is anatomy - I'm not sure how to deal with huge eyes while still having some semblance of proper face structure. Original image is flat and has parts that subtly ignores anatomy/perspective. Also, typical recommendation to "insert sphere and use it as eyeball" doesn't exactly work in this case due to eye size. 

  • perna
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    perna ngon master
    @Callisto , see my last reply to filip5 above. You're missing fundamental knowledge of sub-division modeling.

    @NegInfinity, there's no technical answer to your question. Getting those shapes right is a matter of artistry and proper anatomy study. Oh, and mostly ignoring the reference as it's 2D, and you want to make a 3D shape. Two very different things.
  • NegInfinity
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    NegInfinity vertex
    @perna Erm... did I ask this question in a wrong forum/thread? If so, my apologies. This is something that has been bothering me for quite some time, and this thread looked like the right place to ask about it.... 
  • Neox
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    Neox sublime tool
    @perna Erm... did I ask this question in a wrong forum/thread? If so, my apologies. This is something that has been bothering me for quite some time, and this thread looked like the right place to ask about it.... 
    study the guys who do this great. you will not be able to translate this 1:1 into 3d as the reference doesn't care about correct perspective from any angle.

    https://sketchfab.com/search?q=anime

    just searching anime on sketchfab gives you a ton of reference to check out :)
  • NegInfinity
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    NegInfinity vertex
    Neox said:
    @perna Erm... did I ask this question in a wrong forum/thread? If so, my apologies. This is something that has been bothering me for quite some time, and this thread looked like the right place to ask about it.... 
    study the guys who do this great. you will not be able to translate this 1:1 into 3d as the reference doesn't care about correct perspective from any angle.

    https://sketchfab.com/search?q=anime

    just searching anime on sketchfab gives you a ton of reference to check out :)
    Thanks.
    Somehow I keep forgetting that sketchfab models made by other people can be used as learning material/reference. :-\

    Back to the "drawing board", as they say.
  • 8th_Scepter
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    8th_Scepter polycounter lvl 3
    Hello, I'm having trouble with rounded shapes. 

    The nail:




    Ref: (sort of)


    If I may ask for a bonus model. Halo prop:




    Ref:


    Thanks.



  • Neox
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    Neox sublime tool
    8th_Scepter  please do everyone a favor and read a bit into this thread. this topic has been tackled in here probably a few dozen times. i know it's a bit of work and you might learn a trick or two which you did not ask about, but thats not a bad thing :)
  • 8th_Scepter
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    8th_Scepter polycounter lvl 3
    Neox said:
    8th_Scepter  please do everyone a favor and read a bit into this thread. this topic has been tackled in here probably a few dozen times. i know it's a bit of work and you might learn a trick or two which you did not ask about, but thats not a bad thing :)
    Thanks and will do.  :#
  • HAWK12HT
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    HAWK12HT polycounter lvl 7
    8th Scepter yes you ll thank us later, I have made a full reference folder filled with cool tricks posted here from page 1 to 146 took me couple of hours to do so. Would suggest you do so same ;) Also someone shared all the pics too from this thread somewhere here. 
  • sheheryar_noor
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    sheheryar_noor polycounter lvl 4
    8th spencer, http://prntscr.com/f4bqlo <might help you.
    A suggestion ( i could be wrong) http://image.prntscr.com/image/159eac11504146c1852b905a35f056a1.png In ref image red dot surface and green line surface are not of same height. Give supporting loops like blue line rather than making triangle.

    Edit: In most cases beginners like me see things wrong or incorrect because of less ref images study. Just few days ago i had problem with with gun belt, perna and one another guy helped me to put on path, it took me hours to model what i wanted. Practice,practice and practice makes a man perfect :)
  • perna
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    perna ngon master
    @8th_Scepter , the idea is to be able to break down an issue. To identify what it actually is on a conceptual level.

    Issue #1: Curve/hard intersection. This issue comes up every 2-3 days.

    Issue #2: Simply ignoring the basic principle that smoothly curved patches need edges of equal length. Yours are not as the segments next to the cutout get thinner towards the top, and all the quads are stretched. 


  • mverta
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    mverta vertex
    Being both brand-new to sub-d's and thoroughly intimidated by the responses in the thread, I'll ask my regrettably basic question as a simple yes or no:




    It's all quads, but it's leading to pinching in the reflection.  Is the only way to avoid this simply having a denser base mesh so the distance between vertexes is shorter? 

    (However, even increasing the base mesh resolution substantially doesn't fully address the problem:)




    I keep seeing the principle that on curved surfaces, use existing base geometry as control loops, but this would appear to need an insanely high level of detail to accomplish that.  Is this nonetheless the solution?

  • perna
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    perna ngon master
    @mverta, you should include a link as not everyone is aware of what Peter Stammbach's cavities are about or how they relate to your question.
  • mverta
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    mverta vertex
    Thank you - in retrospect it was an entirely irrelevant detail so I've edited it out.  Simply looking at the quads I've modeled suffices. I will endeavor to be more efficient in the future.
  • Algecir
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    Algecir null
    Hey guys, any thoughts on how to improve this twisted cord edge topology? Because my current attempt looks terrible:

    Ref:


    Thanks.
  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx polycounter lvl 8
    Algecir said:
    Hey guys, any thoughts on how to improve this twisted cord edge topology? Because my current attempt looks terrible:

    Thanks.
    pretty straight forward. i have to go to work so here is a 3 min try. 
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/56y0wymjl3832sv/hereyougo.max?dl=0
    and the file there, to see how i broke it down. 

  • HAWK12HT
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    HAWK12HT polycounter lvl 7
    @mverta  hope this help you understand and solve your problem. Also removing this kind of detail wont help you learn mate! put it back on. Also note that in order to get mine L corner on curve super smooth I manually adjusted vertices on edge constraints. 


  • mverta
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    mverta vertex
    Thank you - but I'm not sure how it directly applies.  My dilemma is that I have dozens of cylinders to make, each with notches cut out of the ends as seen above.  The notches are of all different sizes and depths, so if I was to attempt to use base geometry as control loops, I'd need to start with a cylinder with about 1000 sides just to make sure I was covered, which is retarded.  But the cylinders will ultimately be reflective, so it needs to have as little distortion in it as possible. So far increasing the base mesh's subdivisions doesn't really solve it.  I have also tried using a high-res target mesh to snap points to after the notches are cut out, but this too fails.  
  • perna
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    perna ngon master
    @mverta , yours is a question which comes up and is answered up to several times a week here. See this thread for a discussion on the issue.
  • Thanez
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    Thanez polycounter lvl 4
    @8th_Scepter, part of why you're having a hard time is that you're modeling two separate pieces as one, so you're either suffering because you didn't study your references well enough or simply didn't find good ones. In future, try this: http://deicidenbf.thanez.net/
    Credits to anything found there go to DeicideNBF. I just host the pix.
  • sheheryar_noor
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    sheheryar_noor polycounter lvl 4
    Algecir
    Sliced cylinder http://prntscr.com/f5th54
    Pull vertices and shell,http://prntscr.com/f5thmw
    Turbosmooth http://prntscr.com/f5thze

    Not sure if it looks same as this.



  • mverta
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    mverta vertex
    @perna  Thank you, and yes I've seen it asked and answered in various ways, none of which seem to make sense enough to me to directly apply.  As I said, the first suggestion (more base resolution) is impractical, and when it comes to things like you've illustrated in that link, they seem to point to early termination and n-gons/triangles/whatever to localize the problem.  I've tried that, too, and seem to come up with artifacts, so perhaps it's just that I'm not terminating things the right way.  I suppose I'll just have to keep playing.  I have to learn to do this and can't give up.
  • perna
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    perna ngon master
    @mverta, good call on realizing that simply increasing base res is not the way to go.

    Subdivision modeling is all about approximation. That means you won't achieve the precision found in CAD, but it also means you have the highest levels of freedom and efficiency. In approximating a shape you choose the approach most suitable for each specific case. You're always at the mercy of surrounding geometry, which means there are a lot of these cases and it takes a while to build a good repertoire of solutions.

    Below are two approaches, out of many, for your case.




  • perna
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    perna ngon master
    Here's a couple which use QuadChamfer. In other words no manual tweaking of control loops. The cylinder uses 24 segments.
    stack:
    • meshsmooth
    • quad chamfer
    • smooth
    • shell
    • radial symmetry


    edit: The last version allows for a very soft edge without breaking the smoothing.


  • admiralpixel15
    Hey everyone. Second time posting a problem here. I'm practicing some hard-surface shapes and I encounter this type of shape and I have no idea how to block out the shape. I tried different methods but they don't work perfectly. Thanks in advance. 

    Link: http://imgur.com/a/0tONk (I can't upload images I don't know why)




  • Neox
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    Neox sublime tool


    take a box, angle it, subtract bool it from your shape, clean up, profit
  • perna
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    perna ngon master
    @admiralpixel15 , just boolean subtract a box from the base shape.

    edit: Ninja'd by Neox. To expand on the advice, it seems you need to practice booleans and get used to thinking in terms of which operands make up a shape. Do a ton of quick hard-surface block-outs, or simply look at machined shapes and try to figure them out in your head, etc
  • admiralpixel15
    @perna @Neox Hey there Sir, sorry for the late reply. Thanks for solving my problem with the shape. Here's my attempt of making it. I tried to increase the loops to compensate with the shading problem for the corners. Is that bad? and please critique my work in case there's flaws with it.

    @perna Yes sir I do really need more practice with booleans as I rarely use them. I will definitely do some hard-surface block-outs as well. Thanks for the advice Sir PER.





  • admiralpixel15
    @perna Hey there sir and sorry for late reply. I just want to say your methodologies/techniques are the most easiest and most efficient way of modeling shapes. Before I posted my problem I did try your method with the three edges but I was having difficulties getting  the hard edge in the middle and I was desperate to perfect it but fails every time. I tried to use booleans as you told me solves it, but not the most efficient but it's effective. I keep forgetting the fundamental part of subD and that increasing the resolution of the model is not the right path to go to. Anyways thanks for making an effort solving my problem and showing your way of approaching the shape.

    Seeing your model makes me wanna kill myself. I wonder how did you get the hard edge in the middle part. Was it one of your modifiers? I used Maya instead of 3DS Max because it's the university's main tool for 3D stuffs. Sorry to bother you.
  • perna
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    perna ngon master
    @admiralpixel15 , which hard edge?

    OK, you use Maya. Well, the modifiers just do stuff automatically which you would do by hand in Maya. Most importantly Max has a quad-chamfer modifier ( either the one in recent versions of max called "chamfer", or this one by Marius Silaghi: https://mariussilaghi.com/products/quad-chamfer-modifier) which automatically creates control edges based on smoothing groups (equivalent of hard/soft edges in Maya). I believe there may be something similar for your software but I'm not sure.
  • admiralpixel15
    @perna The edge with the boolean cut-out, the one circled in the image from the post above. I was really hoping that some features in Max is implemented in Maya. Like the Quad-chamfer for edges instead of Bevel and Shell for thickness instead of Extrude because it gives you more control in my opinion. I need practice in terms of edge loop efficiency like how Vitaly Bulgarov do to his 3D models and some block-outs. Blocking out the shape is my enemy especially if there is a complex/complicated cut/inset. Any tips/advice from that one? 

    Anyways here's a sample of Bulgarovs 3D stuffs from his Ultraborg kitbash. Currently studying edge loops efficiency to make the shape but also terminating tris to make it quads. Anyways thanks for your time. I won't ask anymore and abuse you.
  • fearian
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    fearian Polycount Sponsor
    I really liked the simplicity of Perna's approach so I decided to have a go at it without the Quad Chamfer modifier, and using again using Open Sub-Div. I'm trying to get used to using Open SubDiv so this was a learning experiment!



    Without Quad chamfer both required a fair about of cleanup to control edge hardness. Using Max's chamfer modifier I was really limited to how soft I could get the edges in tight spots without the chamfers overlapping each other. Using open subdiv there wasn't enough mesh density around the 'slice' to give a nice bevel. I ended up adding loops later on to clean this up.



    The other problem with Open Subdiv I found was editing the poly added new hard edges that I had to clean up, or it messed up my crease settings. I also had to really fine tune my creasing on an edge by edge basis that was quite tedious.


    @perna by the way, do you have anything set up to stop max from smoothing the entire mesh by default when you chamfer an edge? having to always uncheck that box is annoying as hell. Especially when if I miss it I might not notice for a while.

    anyway this shape is fun, I'm going to detail it out!
  • perna
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    perna ngon master
    @fearian, with regards to the smoothing option I use custom scripts for everything. I wrote a simple one for you (end of post). It sets a number of default options then opens either the chamfer or the inset dialog depending on subobjectlevel.

    Options
    • Chad Chamfer ON
    • Chamfer Open OFF
    • Quad Intersections ON
    • Tension 0.5
    • Smooth ON
    • Smooth Type CHAMFERS ONLY
    • Smooth Treshold 180
    • Inset Type GROUP

    Context behaviour
    • Vertex CHAMFER
    • Edge CHAMFER
    • Border CAP & INSET
    • Face INSET
    • Element INSET


    So the Border SO level fills the hole, then performs an INSET on the resulting geometry.

    There are all sorts of tricks and approaches to avoid overlapping chamfers, so you should strive to learn those instead of turning to Creases, which is an absolute nightmarish disaster for hard-surface and I strongly recommend against using it for anything but unimportant background objects.


    Evaluate the following in the MAXScript editor:
    MacroScript M_PER3D_FearianChamferInset
    ButtonText:"FearianChamferInset"
    Category:"PER3D"
    Tooltip:"FearianChamferInset: Chamfer in vert, edge modes. inset in Border, poly modes. Custom Options."
    (
    	On IsEnabled Return ((Filters.Is_EditPolySpecifyLevel #{2..6}))
    	On IsVisible Return ((Filters.Is_EditPolySpecifyLevel #{2..6}))
    	On Execute do
    	(
    		local obj = Filters.GetModOrObj()
    		obj.edgeChamferType = 1					-- quad chamfer ON
    		obj.edgeChamferOpen = off
    		obj.edgeChamferQuadIntersections = on
    		obj.edgeChamferTension = 0.5
    		obj.edgeChamferSmooth = on
    		obj.edgeChamferSmoothType = 1				-- Smoothing Options: Chamfers Only
    		obj.edgeChamferSmoothThreshold = 180
    		obj.insetType = 0							-- Inset Type: Group
    		case subobjectlevel of
    		(
    			1: (obj.PopupDialog #Chamfer)
    			2: (obj.PopupDialog #Chamfer)
    			3: (obj.capHoles #Edge
    				obj.ConvertSelection #Border #Face requireAll:on
    				subobjectLevel = 4
    				obj.popupDialog #Inset
    				)
    			4: (obj.popupDialog #Inset)
    			5: (obj.popupDialog #Inset)
    		)
    	)
    )
  • fearian
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    fearian Polycount Sponsor
    @perna you absolute saint. Yes setting all those up manually is constant annoyance. I can't wait to give this a run!  <3

    Yeah in reality I could get more consistent edges at the smoothness I wanted if I just built the model with that in mind. But I wasn't really paying attention to proportions when I threw it together and stuck in some too-thin bevels. Mind you, having consistent edges is something I always struggle with!!
    There are all sorts of tricks and approaches to avoid overlapping chamfers, so you should strive to learn those instead of turning to Creases, which is an absolute nightmarish disaster for hard-surface and I strongly recommend against using it for anything but unimportant background objects.
    What a ringing endorsement! /s. Ha! Yes, from detailing out the rest of the model yesterday I eventually started getting sick of having to constantly reset crease values on edges, remove creasing from flat edges that where adjacent to a creased edge I had chamfered. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a disaster, but the Open SubDiv tool in max are not solid enough IMO, and it definitely lacks the control you get from support geo, to the point that I ended up putting in loops in place regardless. 
  • perna
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    perna ngon master
    fearian said:
    What a ringing endorsement! /s. Ha! Yes, from detailing out the rest of the model yesterday I eventually started getting sick of having to constantly reset crease values on edges, remove creasing from flat edges that where adjacent to a creased edge I had chamfered. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a disaster, but the Open SubDiv tool in max are not solid enough IMO, and it definitely lacks the control you get from support geo, to the point that I ended up putting in loops in place regardless. 
    @fearian, Interface is not actually the problem at all. I don't have time to get into detail, but for anyone to say Creases are not a disaster, for the kind of hard surface challenges we deal with here, they simply don't understand the math behind creases nor Pixar's intended purpose for Creases. In our context they're a joke, a silliness and an insult to my family four generations back.
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