How The F*#% Do I Model This? - Reply for help with specific shapes - (Post attempt before asking)

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  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    @Doguib7 , try to form a concise technical question as opposed to "how to model this plz". What specifically are you struggling with and what have you tried to overcome the problem?
  • throttlekitty
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    throttlekitty Polycount Sponsor
    @Doguib7 The context of this thread is help with specific shapes, such as asking why you are getting pinching in a specific place, or how to model a particular detail. We also expect to see some effort and thought laid out first, if you're asking for how to get started, make a new thread, your question is too broad for this thread.
  • somedoggy
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    somedoggy greentooth
    If you can download it for free why not do so and study the model itself rather than a picture?
  • Zablorg
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    Zablorg polycounter lvl 3
    Hi all,

    I have a variation on the standard question in this thread about indenting a shape from a cylinder. Bear with me! I know about offsetting the cylinder side so that they act as edge loops. What I'm actually curious about is the subsequent control edges from the shape you're indenting.

    Say I want to indent a very sharp square into my cylinder. I'd therefore want to have control edges running alongside the corners of the square, so that subdivision leaves the corners nice and crisp. But you can't let them ever escape on to the cylinder (at least the ones that run parallel to the cylinder edges) because that would mess the curvature! So would the appropriate solution be to just have them meet up at a single point before the edges flow back to the cylinder proper? This would make a 6-sided star, so I'm curious if that's negligible or not, and if there's a cleaner way to go about it.

    I'd experiment with this myself but I'm not really in a position to do so right now: Instead I sketched out this 2D version of the topology (i.e. laying everything flat in the xy plane, with each z-axis layer scaled in the xy plane so you can see it)- I hope it gets across what I'm talking about. The dotted lines are those that define the cylinder (being used as control loops). You can see that the innermost square has 12 vertices- 4 for the regular points you'd want from a square, and 8 more for the associated control edges.



    Sorry if this has been covered before- I've seen cases similar but none that seem to address this explicitly. If the problem statement isn't clear enough I can wait until I can actually model it up.



  • admiralpixel15
    @Zablorg Is this what you meant? Please give a clear explanation of what you're asking and straight to the point. Also please show us some of your 3D work because we don't know where you're struggling with. Thanks.
  • Zablorg
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    Zablorg polycounter lvl 3
    @Zablorg Is this what you meant? Please give a clear explanation of what you're asking and straight to the point. Also please show us some of your 3D work because we don't know where you're struggling with. Thanks.
    Not quite! That's an indent in the flat side of a cylinder, whereas I'm more talking about a protrusion/indentation out of the curved face(s).

    I appreciate that my description was probably pretty abstract, mostly because I couldn't get to a computer. I probably should have waited, with that in mind. Anyway, now that I can show you, here's what I'm working with:



    As you can see, the actual interfacing between the protrusion and the cylinder is looking good, because of application of Perna's lessons. But, say I want the protrusion to look more cubic, like its cage mesh. To do that I'd need some edges around the corners to define them more sharply.

    Basically, how would I get route vertical control edges for this protrusion? The following mockup solution results in some intense pinching, which I'd show but it obscures the wireframe.



    I could probably have the left-most control edge run around the perimeter of the cylinder without issue, but I'm more interested in the right edge loop and how to terminate it appropriately.
  • Zablorg
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    Zablorg polycounter lvl 3


    Here's another solution I've tried. It seems to perform better pinch-wise, but results in some pretty wild bulging:


    Keen eyes might notice that I've removed the lower edge loop running around the bottom of the would-be cube. Including it doesn't change the problem fundamentally, it just makes the bulge a bit tighter and more pronounced.

  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    Zablorg: You can use as many segments around the cylinder as you want, and place them anywhere, without affecting the form. So in your last post, there's no reason to move both control points away from the corner like that.
  • admiralpixel15
    @Zablorg Here's the one from Perna's SubD tutorials. Hope that helps your issue.

  • Zablorg
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    Zablorg polycounter lvl 3
    perna said:
    Zablorg: You can use as many segments around the cylinder as you want, and place them anywhere, without affecting the form. So in your last post, there's no reason to move both control points away from the corner like that.

    Interesting. Not quite sure what this means, though - could you clarify what segments you're referring to? Are you suggesting I increase the resolution of the main cylinder and allow its edges to become the controls? That's what your tutorial that Pixel posted seems to do, at any rate. I had considered doing that, but I thought it might be overkill and was holding out for something else.

    Or are you referring to edges that flow around the perimeter of the cylinder? I'm aware I can add those as I wish, but routing both controls in that direction seems difficult. One is already flowing in that direction, however, so routing it is trivial.

    Anyway, the tutorial addresses what I was after, so I'd consider this "solved". Thanks all!
  • HAWK12HT
  • Justo
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    Justo polycounter lvl 5
    What's a non-destructive, simple way of making a woven basket? I got it working with 4 instanced strips, 2 vertical and 2 horizontal  (one going underneath, one going outwards) . The problem with this is that I wouldn't be able to adjust the pattern size if I wanted without some manual work, like even replacing the whole base strips. Is there a more efficient way of doing this? 


  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    @Justo ,

    For actual games production I would just take two minutes to add some 2D bump noise to a normal map and avoid an over-complicated solution. Is there any reason that's not good enough, like for example is this some kind of theoretical exercise?
  • Justo
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    Justo polycounter lvl 5
    Hi Per, yeah, I usually do that too for game art :) And yes, there is a special reason I'm doing this, and it's because it was supposed to be for a render, where I was required to model the micro detail. 
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    If you're not required to make a specific wicker design, pick the one with the best balance of ease of production and aesthetics. A quick search gave me this, which should be straight-forward: 

    If on the other hand you're bound to an exact design, do you have refs for that?

    Also it's important to establish to which degree you want the object to be parametric. Which would the parameters be exactly?

    What I'm trying to say is that the task should be strictly defined. If your posts here were from a client, I would tell them the task is too vaguely defined.
  • Justo
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    Justo polycounter lvl 5
    Thank you for sharing the video Per, I can't see it from this PC because YT is blocked, but I'll check it at home. It's a small background thing based from a low res image from the client so I don't think they're asking for anything too specific, and of course I chose something that was easier to do. 

    Also it's important to establish to which degree you want the object to be parametric. Which would the parameters be exactly?
    EVERYTHING PAPA. I mean, that'd be the biggest dream, right? If not, it'd be nice to be able to adjust only the tiling of the effect.
  • Justo
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    Justo polycounter lvl 5
    My God, I should never doubt how crazy and simple and beautfiful you make even the simplest of assets. Thank you Perna, can't access DB here either so I'll check it out at home, where I'll probably reply back with some questions. This is crazy good stuff, thank you for your time.  
  • musashidan
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    musashidan polycount lvl 666
  • Justo
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    Justo polycounter lvl 5
    @perna
    Tried opening this in 2015 and 17, no luck. So how did you make the baskets Per? Since you used a special modifier/plugin that's not native in Max, all I get when I open the scene are "Missing OSM" in the modifier stack where you used the mysterious tool. 



    @musashidan
    Thanks Dan, I'll check it out :) And don't worry, deadline's over. All this is to learn how to do a better job next time. 
  • supaclueless
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    supaclueless polycounter lvl 7
  • Justo
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    Justo polycounter lvl 5
    Thank you Super, you were right :) 

    @perna , I wanted to ask you some Yes/No questions if you have the time to answer:

    1-The first FFD box you called WIDE stretch, which doesn't really look like it does anything, you put there in order to adjust the width of the segment in order for it to later bend correctly into a circular shape?
    2-You use the Clone modifier and not object instances because this way you can weld and do mesh operations with all clones, which you wouldn't be able to do with instances?
    3-Unrelated subject, but I keep hearing meshsmooth is slower yet I see you frequently use it. I don't see the difference, in this case, with using TS. Did you use this simply because you're used to it and performance-wise it wouldn't affect a scene this small?
    4-Do you have a dog and is he cute?
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    1. it's a leftover - doesn't do anything, I decided to go the epoly route for variation
    2. clone mod is parametric, instances are not, and of course separate objects can't cross-weld or -subdivide
    3. turbosmooth is generally faster as it resolves to emesh, but that also means it collapses to emesh
    4. I would if I knew what to do with the dog when I'm out of country

    Just a heads-up not to read too much from my max files and screenshot during 2017. My setup is distributed among 5 different Max installs at the moment, and it'll take some months to pool it all.

    Check my sig for extension recommendations, including Clone.
  • iacdxb
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    iacdxb polycounter lvl 2
    Hi, getting some hard line in cylinder shape. Any idea how can I fix this....? Thanks.

       
  • Justo
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    Justo polycounter lvl 5
    You mean you don't want that hard edge in the cylindrical side? Just delete those supporting edges, you don't need those. 
  • NoRank
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    NoRank triangle
    By removing the control loops?

    Tbh your question is really vague...
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    @iacdxb
    Try running the control loop around the cylinder instead of down its side:



  • iacdxb
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    iacdxb polycounter lvl 2
    @perna
    Its like round cut, but thanks for that, I will give a try by keeping same cutting looping system.

  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    @iacdxb the shape of the cut has zero relevance on the effectiveness of the solution.
  • Kerotronic
    Hi :)

    Can anybody help me by telling me how this animation was created ? 



    thank you :)
  • gfelton
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    gfelton polycounter lvl 4
    snip
     This isn't the really thread for a question like that dude
  • admiralpixel15
    @Kerotronic This thread is mainly for 3D artists who are struggling with MODELING shapes etc. not Animation. Please read the thread title. :) If you're looking for Animation threads try visiting this link : "http://wiki.polycount.com/wiki/Animation" and look for tutorials you see fit.  
  • throttlekitty
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    throttlekitty Polycount Sponsor
    That said, it's a clouds texture + levels driving displacement.
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    @Shinigami

    links in my sig







  • Justo
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    Justo polycounter lvl 5
    How would you guys make a diamond-patterned bag with the least manual tweaking? I tried creating a bag from a quadsphere and twist it at the top, then convert that to splines, then mirror it for the opposite cross line. 

    The problem with this is the bag loses its pattern shapes at the bottom, plus it requires quite a lot of vert pulling. I also just created a subdivided plane and pulled the center down using soft selection, but it deforms awfully. 


  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    @Shinigami , no, the principle is to not align the cutouts with the existing topology, which is what most people do automatically. The cutout is midway across the segment, leaving more space for shading correction. I've made a bunch of posts on this.
  • EarthQuake
    Justo said:
    How would you guys make a diamond-patterned bag with the least manual tweaking? I tried creating a bag from a quadsphere and twist it at the top, then convert that to splines, then mirror it for the opposite cross line. 

    The problem with this is the bag loses its pattern shapes at the bottom, plus it requires quite a lot of vert pulling. I also just created a subdivided plane and pulled the center down using soft selection, but it deforms awfully. 


    Well I assume the bag would be tied at the bottom? So start with a regular sphere rather than a quad sphere so the strands connect at the center. Do a sphere, then delete the top half and extrude up to get the base shape before twisting.
  • Justo
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    Justo polycounter lvl 5
    @EarthQuake Hey Joe, thanks for answering. Your suggestion is perfectly viable, though I was thinking of trying to keep the pattern even at the bottom, as if the thing was tied at the top instead. Got any ideas?
     

  • reereen
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    reereen polycounter lvl 2
    I'm trying to model a low-poly bird that will be rigged for a game, but I'm not sure whether the topology would be sufficient for rigging. I've done google searches on bird topology and wing topology, but most of them were above my poly limit. I'm trying to keep the model under 1k polys. I do know that the wings should be able to flap, the beak should able to open and close, and the eye should be able to open and close. The eye not need to be able to rotate.

    Basically how do I keep the wings, eye, and mouth riggable while still staying within the 1k poly limit?


    Here is also the reference I was looking at: 

  • musashidan
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    musashidan polycount lvl 666
    @reereen  why not just rig it and see for yourself?  Has the age of CG self-experimentation died........?

    Also, not a modeling problem as per the thread.
  • cptSwing
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    cptSwing polycounter lvl 7
    Put a texture on it (checker if need be), rig it quickly, and you'll find out where you'd need more edge loops etc. ;)
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    @Justo: Are you saying you're incapable of modeling criss-crossing diagonal lines?

    @reereen: there's no such thing as "bird topology". Just use general principles of modeling and optimizing organic subjects. Geometry should be evenly distributed and equally contribute to silhouette, except where serving a specific purpose for deformation. When it comes to optimization, just make the lowest-cost reductions until you are at the tricount you seek.


  • Justo
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    Justo polycounter lvl 5
    @perna Sorry if I wasn't clear. Yes, I am incapable to do that shape correctly, though I'm still thinking on how to do it. The ideas I came up with were lame and pathetic. 
  • delisun
    Hey dudes and dudettes, i was trying to model a fox trapper knife cause of the interesting shape, BUT I DONT GET TO MODEL DEM SHAPE.

    The first try:

    the second try:

    a quick render for seeing the problems:


    with ngons:


    you can clearly see sharp edges where i not want them to appear if i wont use ngons ._. this is very frustrating.

    hope one of you wants to help me :>

    edit: the reference is: http://www.foxcutlery.com/n/files/u01e41/fox_trapper.jpg
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    delisun said:
    i wont use ngons
    Prepare to be roasted
  • EarthQuake
    I wont ngons either my brother died that way
  • gfelton
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    gfelton polycounter lvl 4
    My dad used to beat me if he found n-gons or triangles in my high polies so I understand where you're coming from delisun
  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx greentooth
    BEWARE OF THE NGONS, those bastard once stole my 3D model and made it better. 
  • Justo
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    Justo polycounter lvl 5
    @perna that is crazy, Norway is crazy, you are awesome. Thank you.

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