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How The F*#% Do I Model This? - Reply for help with specific shapes - (Post attempt before asking)

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  • NoRank
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    NoRank polycounter lvl 3
    For real, I actually like when a model comes at least clean the way it was presented, even if someone used some "useless" effort doing that by hand. Because hell how I hate to get a model that I simply can't work with, and that happens all the time.

    I know that many times you don't need to do any manual work, and by not doing that you can benefit of using parametric stuff to make changes easly, but I would rather see a decent model done by hand than a bad one made by someone who doesn't even know how to build a decent topology and just used some booleans and nurbs and called it done.
  • philipp.bogdanovskiy
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    philipp.bogdanovskiy polycounter lvl 5
    Oh maya setting was making triangles with the open edges in my smooth setting. So yes one sub-d makes quads from ngons or tris.  

    I don't suffer ill effects from ngons - and I dont work in film.  But you also said there's no difference from games or film.  So why can't an ILM guy use ngons?  What's the quad situation in film?  I know what problems ngons can cause if used incorrectly but it seems like bad advice just to say - don't ever use them.  Better for people to know why they are bad and why you can bend the rules in rare cases (imo)  But whatever I'll just continue to squeak by with my nasty meshes!

    As far as the examples - Thought they were nice examples people learning to model would be interested to see.  But this thread is pretty typically hostile I'll just try and help elsewhere.  
    Usually, if particular asset is a static prop, or won't be involved in sim, it might get away with being decimated mesh for example. Some render engines use render time subdivision, so the mesh is better be quad and clean, especially if it's a foreground asset. Others may handle huge polycounts in a single scene, so the mesh density is not an issue.  

    As long as you can UV your mesh properly, you are half-way there with a static asset. As for sim and fx, it usually depends on a type of simulation you're doing. If you're using mesh as a fluid source, it doesn't matter what topology it has, it just better to be airtight. If it's RBD's, there might be certain criteria you'll have to fit.
  • Justo
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    Justo polycounter
    perna said:
    @Justo , just to clear up the first question: The intersection point is where the two boolean operators line up. So the question is - why did you decide to make the subtraction exactly there, as opposed to a bit to the left or right or whatever.

    Because generally, whenever I try to do boolean ops with objects that have faces that coincide, sometimes the operation will create bad, super thin faces that force me to just delete the whole area and bridge/cap. So I guess I've grown used to avoid that, and prefer to just bool stuff that doesn't snap exactly at the same places. Would you disagree with this?

    In any case, tried what you said and voila, no super thin faces were created and it seems to me it looks good enough.


    However, I had to eyeball some stuff, and I wanted to ask if I'm just doing it wrong. I'm talking about the bevel, which, much like moving verts along their normal axis/Push modifier, behave badly with complex shapes. Thus, I eyeball the corners:



    I don't know if the bevel moves verts using the same formula as Pushing, where it's multiplying the vertex coordinate by a number, and by the avegare vertex normal direction, and maybe what I'm having trouble with is mathematically not possible?
  • CafeNight
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    CafeNight polycounter lvl 5
    Justo said:
    perna said:
    @Justo , just to clear up the first question: The intersection point is where the two boolean operators line up. So the question is - why did you decide to make the subtraction exactly there, as opposed to a bit to the left or right or whatever.

    Because generally, whenever I try to do boolean ops with objects that have faces that coincide, sometimes the operation will create bad, super thin faces that force me to just delete the whole area and bridge/cap. So I guess I've grown used to avoid that, and prefer to just bool stuff that doesn't snap exactly at the same places. Would you disagree with this?

    In any case, tried what you said and voila, no super thin faces were created and it seems to me it looks good enough.


    However, I had to eyeball some stuff, and I wanted to ask if I'm just doing it wrong. I'm talking about the bevel, which, much like moving verts along their normal axis/Push modifier, behave badly with complex shapes. Thus, I eyeball the corners:



    I don't know if the bevel moves verts using the same formula as Pushing, where it's multiplying the vertex coordinate by a number, and by the avegare vertex normal direction, and maybe what I'm having trouble with is mathematically not possible?
    reset x-form in 3dmax always after boolen operations 
  • Justo
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    Justo polycounter
    Really really amazing stuff Perna, thank you. Really intrigued on that Bevel bit you wrote; I'll make some meshes trying to apply what you just did in a few hours.  
  • Justo
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    Justo polycounter
    Again, thank you @Perna. Most of these questions I ask are really simple, but I ask them anyway because sometimes these are just unproven perceptions, and a confirmation from a pro always seal the deal. Plus I always get to pick up some fun phrases like "Garbage in, garbage out."

    Like you said, not using bools and making the shape from the cylinder would be best. Not only you skip any possible errors with the bool ops, but you also end up naturally making the geo needed for the right bevel.

    Following what I was saying on the Push stuff, how do you go about modeling panel lines? It always drives me up the wall whenever I have to move something along its normal and because of the interpolation it looks like crap and I have to go in an manually tweak those little fckers. If, say, I was baking a real big panel line in a 4k map, that little detail would look awful if I just left it like that. Do you even bother moving that?


  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    Justo: Edge Extrude then Chamfer? Not important or really relevant, but if they're supposed to be panel lines they should indent the surface, not stick out though?


    If your question regards the bent shape you get when you've subdivided the shapes like that.. well you could avoid that or fix it. Avoid it simply by making the panel lines before you subdivide the sides. Fixing it.. many solutions. This would be my go-to:



    I'm pretty sure Max has this functionality out of the box. If not, there's surely some free scripts out there.
  • Justo
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    Justo polycounter
    Yeah, panel lines was the wrong term, since like you say they wouldn't stick out. As you guessed, the real question is dealing with the bent shapes a normal Edge Extrude gives. 

    You say I should avoid subdividing before doing that. Yeah, normally I would. I just subdivided to try give an example of a more complex thing that'd have some lines going through that area, sorry if it wasn't good enough. What if, say, you needed that geo for something else? In cases like this, would you not agree that'd slow things down?



    You talk about booleans to fix this? You lost me there haha. Booleans would surely be unnecessarily convoluted to use just for this? Isn't Straighten Edge enough?  
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    @Justo
    boolean selections, not the boolean mesh op. A boolean is just a logical operation. I even included an image showing what I'm talking about. Selecting every single partial loop manually would take forever.

    https://www.computerhope.com/jargon/b/boolean.htm

    Here. "Stored Selections Panel".
    https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/3ds-max/learn-explore/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/2018/ENU/3DSMax-Modeling/files/GUID-117A5359-61FD-46A3-A1CB-25D8271F5ACC-htm.html



    Copy Store 1 A in my illustration (which still is selected after the extrusion).
    Copy Store 2 B (simply edge ring selection after picking 4 edges manually).
    Now hit the "Intersect" button.
    etc.

    EDIT: all of that said, for indents that curvature is mostly irrelevant and I wouldn't bother fixing it in most cases. I don't know what you mean about your indent going against the surface flow; it looks fine to me.
  • Justo
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    Justo polycounter
    @perna
    Thanks again for all the info man. It's good to hear that you wouldn't bother fixing that in most cases, I do agree it's an extreme level of anal precision I'm talking about. Just wanted to talk about the subject and hear your thoughts on it. 

    As for the whole boolean talk, well yeah, I would normally assume if anyone mentions it they're talking about adding or substracting meshes, or talking about a true/false variable when coding. My peanut brain hasn't quite figured out what your image was supposed to be telling me, but if I wanted to make that selection, I would just select a middle edge>Grow Loop>Ring. Hopefully some day I'll look back at it and realize the Per wisdom inside those pixels. 
  • Justo
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    Justo polycounter
    Well well well...I know what I'll be studying this lunch break and possibly later tonight!! 
  • aset1106
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    aset1106 null
    Subdivision mouse modeling

  • Udjani
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    Udjani greentooth
    Hi, i was modeling those examples here http://imgur.com/a/dEWXP. one of them, i did like in the SS, but at some angles you can see some pinching, and i can't fix it. I think that this mesh was done in this topic, but i couldn't find.  

    So, if someone knows if it can be fixed, please let me know. I can't upload obj.



  • gfelton
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    gfelton polycounter lvl 6
    dchani said:
    snip that mf thaang
    You're missing a supporting loop here:


     
  • perna
  • Udjani
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    Udjani greentooth
    gfelton said:
    You're missing a supporting loop here:
    Another weird stuff happen when i do that. 
    -----
    Perna,



    With that topology that i posted yesterday i can't see those pinching when using the grey matcap, maybe are the reflective matcaps the problem? 
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    dchani said:
    With that topology that i posted yesterday i can't see those pinching when using the grey matcap, maybe are the reflective matcaps the problem? 

    The material is fine. Shiny materials simply show shading errors more clearly than matte materials do since there's more contrast.

    The problem happens because you have two surfaces side-by-side with different curvature, so naturally there's going to be a break in shading between them.

    The easiest solution here is to do what I did above and not have the transitions happen on the curve. You have it happening on the part that's just barely curving, so the visual difference will be minimal.

    The second solution, which I keep preaching, is to widen the area of influence. This works the same as changing material does - lowering local shading contrast. The solution below works without any hand-made fencing whatsoever.



    Third solution: Add more segments to the curve. This has the same effect, reducing the visibility of the transition. This time by limiting the angle range the transition needs to go through.

  • Udjani
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    Udjani greentooth
    perna said:
    Got it now, thank you perna! 
  • admiralpixel15
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    admiralpixel15 polycounter lvl 2
    Hi all! Can somebody please explain the terms "triple/tripple edging and fencing?" I was doing some research about subdivision modelling and I encountered these terms. I tried looking for definition but can't find any on Google. I'm sorry if the question is not about modelling specific shapes. Thanks in advance. 
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    Hi all! Can somebody please explain the terms "triple/tripple edging and fencing?" I was doing some research about subdivision modelling and I encountered these terms. I tried looking for definition but can't find any on Google. I'm sorry if the question is not about modelling specific shapes. Thanks in advance. 

    It just means control loops.
  • admiralpixel15
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    admiralpixel15 polycounter lvl 2
    @perna Oh OK thanks for the quick response. Are they some kind of special technique for maintaining hard edges? Here's the one I found on ArtStation.

    Link: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/mYVE1
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    @perna Oh OK thanks for the quick response. Are they some kind of special technique for maintaining hard edges? Here's the one I found on ArtStation.

    Link: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/mYVE1
    It's literally just a synonym for control loops, nothing else, no special method. Methods in that link are very oldschool.
  • admiralpixel15
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    admiralpixel15 polycounter lvl 2
    @perna Oh I get it now. Thanks perna! You're the boss! 
  • Revel
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    Revel interpolator
    He called it "triple edge" because it involve 3 edges, 1 for main and 2 for support loops. But I never heard that term before, ha!
  • heyeye
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    heyeye polycounter lvl 6
    Revel said:
    He called it "triple edge" because it involve 3 edges, 1 for main and 2 for support loops. But I never heard that term before, ha!
    Wait 'til you see this new sword....

  • Udjani
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    Udjani greentooth
    Any tip about how to make this transition? https://prnt.sc/gg0262 wouldn't be so hard to just make a square that goes up, but is too tight there, i don't understand what is happening there, i did some different stuff but always end up having to do it from the start. 
  • NoRank
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    NoRank polycounter lvl 3
    If I got your question right, those two pieces are separated, there is no need to model them as one piece.
  • iacdxb
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    iacdxb polycounter lvl 4
    Hi,
    Trying to do this base but I don't think its with hypernurbs. anyone can me with this...? Thanks.


  • Udjani
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    Udjani greentooth
    NoRank said:
    If I got your question right, those two pieces are separated, there is no need to model them as one piece.
    That explains, still having problem deciding when to use more than one piece, thanks! 
  • triton
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    triton polycounter lvl 4
    Hi guys,
    How do you scale the faces every face on its own place? locally in Maya? I tried everything but none of the methods is working!
    I wanted to do it simultaneously to have same scale value on all faces. Thanks


  • eXeshechka
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    eXeshechka polycounter lvl 5


     edit mesh>transform or shift+rmb in component mode >transform component
  • triton
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    triton polycounter lvl 4


     edit mesh>transform or shift+rmb in component mode >transform component
    woow thank you so much dude
  • admiralpixel15
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    admiralpixel15 polycounter lvl 2
    @triton You can also change the pivot to "Component" in the Modelling Toolkit. 
  • PancakeMSTR
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    PancakeMSTR polycounter lvl 4
    Hi, 
    I'm trying to model keyboard space bar and having some trouble. Hoping you guys can help me model this. See attached image, happy to clarify anything unclear. Thanks! 
  • triton
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    triton polycounter lvl 4
    @triton You can also change the pivot to "Component" in the Modelling Toolkit. 
    I tried that before but it's not working.
    Thank you for your reply.
  • Carabiner
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    Carabiner greentooth
    Help with this shape?


    My not ideal progress so far, I tried boolean-ing and adjusting the topology after. Not ideal because it's hard to bevel after.



  • sheheryar_noor
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    sheheryar_noor polycounter lvl 8


     edit mesh>transform or shift+rmb in component mode >transform component
    How do we do that in Max if you know?
  • Revel
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    Revel interpolator
    In Max you can just simply change your "Reference Coordinate System" to "Local" or "Local Align".
  • carlbat
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    carlbat polycounter lvl 3
    Hello guys, sorry for my english is medium, i need orientation for this topology, is that correct?I have seen all the pages of this publication (+100 pages), and copied all cases for topology, help me please. Thanks for your participation.
  • rage288
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    rage288 polycounter lvl 4
    @carlbat
    looks fine to me, what seems to be the issue?

  • carlbat
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    carlbat polycounter lvl 3
    Oh no no problem, just i want comments for this model, i correct polygons for this part. here is what i want to achieve, thanks for you comment.
  • rage288
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    rage288 polycounter lvl 4
    carlbat said:
    Oh no no problem, just i want comments for this model, i correct polygons for this part. here is what i want to achieve, thanks for you comment.
    Looks good to me, but I would tell you to post for help if you see an issue not just for comments.
    This thread is for advice on specific shapes not critique.

    Cheers!

  • carlbat
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    carlbat polycounter lvl 3
    ok, sorry friend.
  • snakedogman
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    snakedogman polycounter lvl 4
    Carabiner said:
    Help with this shape?


    My not ideal progress so far, I tried boolean-ing and adjusting the topology after. Not ideal because it's hard to bevel after.







    How about something more like this?



    I know that's not perfect, but I think it's the right direction :)
    You might need some more faces in the big vertical cylinder shape.
    Personally I would practice on some simpler shapes first. Instead of something with 4 or 5 cylinder shapes merging at add angles, try something with just two.
  • ebi
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    ebi polycounter lvl 4
    Hard edge rectangle extrusion on a curved surface with a subsurface modifier.
    I'm going mental, I'm trying to extrude a rectangle shape out of a cylinder, (also I try to get hard edges on the extrusion) when using the subsurface modifier I'm getting a pinch at the edges if I'm trying to give it another edge loop I get this ugly line going from top to bottom.
    The only way that works for me is CGMaster's video . (also obviously create two separate meshes)

    My question is: Is there any way to create a single mesh hard edge extrusion on a curved surface (with subsurface), only with edge loops or topology manipulation??

    pls help.


  • Joao Sapiro
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    Joao Sapiro polycounter
    ebi said:
    Hard edge rectangle extrusion on a curved surface with a subsurface modifier.
    I'm going mental, I'm trying to extrude a rectangle shape out of a cylinder, (also I try to get hard edges on the extrusion) when using the subsurface modifier I'm getting a pinch at the edges if I'm trying to give it another edge loop I get this ugly line going from top to bottom.
    The only way that works for me is CGMaster's video . (also obviously create two separate meshes)

    My question is: Is there any way to create a single mesh hard edge extrusion on a curved surface (with subsurface), only with edge loops or topology manipulation??

    pls help.


    i dont want to be that guy to mention this, but this has been answered literally hundreds of times on this thread, first and second page already have good pointers.
  • snakedogman
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    snakedogman polycounter lvl 4
    ebi said:
    Hard edge rectangle extrusion on a curved surface with a subsurface modifier.
    I'm going mental, I'm trying to extrude a rectangle shape out of a cylinder, (also I try to get hard edges on the extrusion) when using the subsurface modifier I'm getting a pinch at the edges if I'm trying to give it another edge loop I get this ugly line going from top to bottom.
    The only way that works for me is CGMaster's video . (also obviously create two separate meshes)

    My question is: Is there any way to create a single mesh hard edge extrusion on a curved surface (with subsurface), only with edge loops or topology manipulation??

    pls help.


    You need to keep even distribution of edges on the cylinder, otherwise you ruin your cylinder shape. So use the original vertical edges of the cylinder as control loop, without adding more or moving them. If you need to edge to more defined you may need more edges on the cylinder.
  • ebi
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    ebi polycounter lvl 4
    i dont want to be that guy to mention this, but this has been answered literally hundreds of times on this thread, first and second page already have good pointers.
    I've looked and I tried the different ways and still didn't get the right result.
    that's why I'm asking for help

    basically I'm trying to achieve hard edge, extrusion on the curved surface without pinches and deforms with one mesh. 
    works easily with two meshes and hard edge crease, but just want to know..
    not sure it's possible...

    example with separate meshes and mean crease:
     
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