true
i was thinking that the goal would be to accept the fact u've got a certain level of ai and build the gameplay around that so it remains effective and cannot be easily exploited
I assume this is the leaked version?
One can hope things will change. Hope. I doubt it will... but I'll hope!
No spoilers really. Just a guy shooting AI in the face, then another AI comes to check on his dead buddy, gets shot in the head, another guy comes to check, etc
I was just thinking that leaks might have some positive sideeffect, that people who plays the leaks and comes out pointing at the weak points, might help the company to narrow down on them before actually releasing the game and might quickly fix them.
Wonder how 'quickly' they can rewrite the entirity of the AI...
It's easy! Currently their AI code looks like this:
READY
10 AI HEADSHOT BY PLAYER
20 IF AI DISCOVER DEAD COMRADE SHOUT 'WHAT HAPPENED?!?'
30 GO TO 10
All they need to do is add this additional code:
20 IF AI DISCOVER DEAD COMRADE SHOUT 'WHAT HAPPENED?!?'; SHOOT WILDLY IN GENERAL DIRECTION OF PLAYER; BACK AWAY SLOWLY TO COVER WHILE CALLING FOR BACK-UP.
Seriously though, it's really disappointing when a studio goes to such lengths to create a believable world in terms of visuals - fake brands, intricately realised technology, impressive viral campaigns etc. - but neglects to put the same effort into the actual mechanics of the game. Creating convincing and reactive AI should be a higher priority than how shiny your guns are.
40 back away to where?
50 waypoint required
60 cover waypoint/object could not be found since game designer haven't put it yet in this area.. yet.
70 ai decission fight between back away or idle
80 idle win
unfinished build never meant to be judged by public
40 back away to where?
50 waypoint required
60 cover waypoint could not be found since game designer haven't put it yet in this area.. yet.
70 ai decission fight between back away or idle
80 idle win
unfinished build never meant to be judged by public
I think you may have missed the point. I wasn't suggesting that rewriting the code was easy, or that this was a finished build. Sarcasm never does work too well on the internet though does it...
Yeah, apologies for coming across as snarky. I don't mean to single out Deus Ex Revolution either. It's more a reaction to the general trend in games with super high production values that have disappointingly simplistic AI (Crysis 2, Splinter Cell Conviction etc.). I'm hopeful that the AI in this game in the final build will match the visual excellence of the game.
If they don't make AI behave as that, how are BradyGames gonna sell their exclusive special edition game guides?!
Deus Ex Invisible War had idiotic AI too, mostly running into turrets for ragdoll show and i've even silence pistol'd someone point blank up front... and they went investigating where they got shot from.
If I ever have kids, I'll force them to play this and everyother triple AAA game, and tell them; "See kids, this is what you look like to other people in terms of Intelligence when you act like a bunch of pillocks! Now go and make me some good AI darn it".
Ontopic: I'm so getting this game...for the design alone...wonder if we will get modding tools for us beautiful master PC gaming race...hmm.
I'm under the impression there is no good AI for combat oriented games. I play a LOT of games and i can't think of these magical titles you guys are holding this up against. A game with ai that is not either easily confused or omniscient, and remains interesting to fight against? No stealth games or shooters are coming to mind. Definitely not FEAR or Thief. I think some of the people who criticize mechanical parts of games like AI have rose tinted glasses about the games they played before they became overcritical dicks.
Yeah. I remember behaviour in Thief III to be pretty much the same, where a guard would find a dead body, go on alert for 20 seconds, audibly say "Oh. Must have been the wind", then forget all about it and return to his post/patrol.
I don't remember this being so obvious in the first Deus Ex title. There isn't anything coming to mind. The enemies seemed to detect you pretty easily, and they'd either chase you down until someone died, or they'd go sound an alarm.
I think the MGS games do it pretty well, with an audible commanding officer barking the current alert status at the troops, so you know what mode they're in. They get backup, they can take cover, they search for you, etc.
I always remembered being impressed with Half Life, when you first meet the soldiers, too.
Anyway. Still looking forward to this game. Still trying desperately not to get my hopes up.
Yeah this whole AI thing ... I either remember them being really dumb like in that trailer, always walking up to the same body, or either instantly being able to pinpoint you when they notice a buddy has been shot (eg Far Cry 2 was so disturbing in this aspect).
I think some of the people who criticize mechanical parts of games like AI have rose tinted glasses about the games they played before they became overcritical dicks.
For the record, I've ALWAYS been an overcritical dick. Ask anyone.
I'm not saying that triple A games have particularly bad AI, just that it often lags behind the cutting edge nature of the rest of the experience and drags down the believability of the game as a result.
I think that good AI doesn't have to be super intelligent, but there are a couple of things that make enemy AI seem more advanced than it necessarily is. Firstly that it reacts satisfyingly to your actions, and secondly that there is an escalation of response depending on how many enemies you kill.
I think The Metal Gear Solid games and Arkham Asylum for example do a great job on both of these points and so the enemies feel like people that experience fear and anger etc. rather than simply bots with very obvious alert and cool-down phases. I found Arkham Asylum really satisfying to play because the AI goons would get progressively more freaked out as you picked off more and more of their companions. Now I don't know if this is genuine AI or just clever scripting, but it's certainly a lot more immersive than having a parade of AI enemies all behave exactly the same way on discovering fallen enemies regardless of whether there's one corpse or five.
yea the point is how many leaps and bounds DX (for this example) has taken since its original in terms of graphics and what not, while the AI has been improved relatively little.
My assumption has always been that companies just don't wonna make AI so clever as to not turn down the vast majority of gamers - who r rather average players. Certainly, hardcore gamers and online competitors find the AI poor if not laughable but they r only an insignificant minority to the money & decision makers.
I watched the dumbass ai, and i disliked too many things that i ended cancelling my preorder.
A bad AI makes the gameplay very poor, and i can't tolerate this for this kind of game. By the way, a good AI does not make the game harder, just more credible.
I watched the dumbass ai, and i disliked too many things that i ended cancelling my preorder.
A bad AI makes the gameplay very poor, and i can't tolerate this for this kind of game. By the way, a good AI does not make the game harder, just more credible.
You're canceling your pre-order on the strength of a 38-second video of leaked beta gameplay?
well the reviews are pouring in. 9/10 on IGN, 8.7 on gametrailers, A on 1up. looks pretty awesome from everything I have seen so far. I would be going in as someone new to the franchise, played maybe 10 mins or so of 1 and also 2 but never got into them. I like the visual style, and while the graphics themselves dont look amazing, the art direction and visual design looks stellar. You guys grabbing it tomorrow?
This is my most anticipated game of the yaer, more than skyrim and batman! So excited! Pixelmasher, you've probably heard this before but the first Deus Ex is soooo worth a full play through. You gotta give it some time before you get into it though, the begining sucks in comparison to the rest of the game.
Dead tired, have to get up in four hours, going to be dragging all day. Still couldn't sleep without seeing it. Just a half an hour in, and it's absolutely beautiful. "Give me Deus Ex"
Goods:
1. Interesting so far.
2. Nice environments and future tech.
3. Good music.
4. The hiding behind corners bit works well.
5. Weapons have "pull" to them.
Bads.
1. Poor Facial Animation, (can forgive)
2. Buggy Release. Sometimes it freezes when attempting to load levels or load moves. (update quick)
3. Absolutely HORRIBLE load times, from quick save. Literally 15+ seconds each time. This is on a SSD as well. (update quick)
THE BOMB
4. REAL PISSER: Unless Im mistaken and its something in my system.. They took the cheap way out on the PC. IT HAS THE CONSOLE GAMEPAD CONTROL DELAY WITH MOUSE. Like it takes 1/4 second from when I move my mouse initially for it to show on screen. (Unacceptable on a AAA release.. Totally unacceptable.)
Oxy - if I remember correctly, this lag is actually partly caused by the heavy graphics postprocessing. Disabling it made the game more responsive for me (on the "press" demo/beta version)...
Replies
i was thinking that the goal would be to accept the fact u've got a certain level of ai and build the gameplay around that so it remains effective and cannot be easily exploited
Well it is an early build but damn... same problem with Crysis. Programming doods need to do another year or two in college it seems!
It's easy! Currently their AI code looks like this:
READY
10 AI HEADSHOT BY PLAYER
20 IF AI DISCOVER DEAD COMRADE SHOUT 'WHAT HAPPENED?!?'
30 GO TO 10
All they need to do is add this additional code:
20 IF AI DISCOVER DEAD COMRADE SHOUT 'WHAT HAPPENED?!?'; SHOOT WILDLY IN GENERAL DIRECTION OF PLAYER; BACK AWAY SLOWLY TO COVER WHILE CALLING FOR BACK-UP.
Seriously though, it's really disappointing when a studio goes to such lengths to create a believable world in terms of visuals - fake brands, intricately realised technology, impressive viral campaigns etc. - but neglects to put the same effort into the actual mechanics of the game. Creating convincing and reactive AI should be a higher priority than how shiny your guns are.
50 waypoint required
60 cover waypoint/object could not be found since game designer haven't put it yet in this area.. yet.
70 ai decission fight between back away or idle
80 idle win
unfinished build never meant to be judged by public
I think you may have missed the point. I wasn't suggesting that rewriting the code was easy, or that this was a finished build. Sarcasm never does work too well on the internet though does it...
Deus Ex Invisible War had idiotic AI too, mostly running into turrets for ragdoll show and i've even silence pistol'd someone point blank up front... and they went investigating where they got shot from.
Ontopic: I'm so getting this game...for the design alone...wonder if we will get modding tools for us beautiful master PC gaming race...hmm.
It's ok, we all hate Mr. Carver. Handsome bastard.
I'm so excited about this game that i gave up being cautiously optimistic and am probably going to be horrendously disappointed.
Same here!
I don't remember this being so obvious in the first Deus Ex title. There isn't anything coming to mind. The enemies seemed to detect you pretty easily, and they'd either chase you down until someone died, or they'd go sound an alarm.
I think the MGS games do it pretty well, with an audible commanding officer barking the current alert status at the troops, so you know what mode they're in. They get backup, they can take cover, they search for you, etc.
I always remembered being impressed with Half Life, when you first meet the soldiers, too.
Anyway. Still looking forward to this game. Still trying desperately not to get my hopes up.
For the record, I've ALWAYS been an overcritical dick. Ask anyone.
I'm not saying that triple A games have particularly bad AI, just that it often lags behind the cutting edge nature of the rest of the experience and drags down the believability of the game as a result.
I think that good AI doesn't have to be super intelligent, but there are a couple of things that make enemy AI seem more advanced than it necessarily is. Firstly that it reacts satisfyingly to your actions, and secondly that there is an escalation of response depending on how many enemies you kill.
I think The Metal Gear Solid games and Arkham Asylum for example do a great job on both of these points and so the enemies feel like people that experience fear and anger etc. rather than simply bots with very obvious alert and cool-down phases. I found Arkham Asylum really satisfying to play because the AI goons would get progressively more freaked out as you picked off more and more of their companions. Now I don't know if this is genuine AI or just clever scripting, but it's certainly a lot more immersive than having a parade of AI enemies all behave exactly the same way on discovering fallen enemies regardless of whether there's one corpse or five.
My assumption has always been that companies just don't wonna make AI so clever as to not turn down the vast majority of gamers - who r rather average players. Certainly, hardcore gamers and online competitors find the AI poor if not laughable but they r only an insignificant minority to the money & decision makers.
A bad AI makes the gameplay very poor, and i can't tolerate this for this kind of game. By the way, a good AI does not make the game harder, just more credible.
You're canceling your pre-order on the strength of a 38-second video of leaked beta gameplay?
There are more videos
Ah, I've only seen the one. trying to avoid them for spoiler reasons
shame on anyone who read any other reviews first.
Btw, someone said 13 hours? My steam says 3 days. :poly117:
Never played a Deus Ex game though, or seen any footage of this one for that matter. (Barely seen screenshots)
We don't get it tomorrow in Europe?
Nope, sorry, seem you won't get it until Friday.
hells yeah-
So far the other issues have been a nice setup/preview for the game.
Goods:
1. Interesting so far.
2. Nice environments and future tech.
3. Good music.
4. The hiding behind corners bit works well.
5. Weapons have "pull" to them.
Bads.
1. Poor Facial Animation, (can forgive)
2. Buggy Release. Sometimes it freezes when attempting to load levels or load moves. (update quick)
3. Absolutely HORRIBLE load times, from quick save. Literally 15+ seconds each time. This is on a SSD as well. (update quick)
THE BOMB
4. REAL PISSER: Unless Im mistaken and its something in my system.. They took the cheap way out on the PC. IT HAS THE CONSOLE GAMEPAD CONTROL DELAY WITH MOUSE. Like it takes 1/4 second from when I move my mouse initially for it to show on screen. (Unacceptable on a AAA release.. Totally unacceptable.)
Better be.
I need my new PC - stat!
^ This.