How The F*#% Do I Model This? - Reply for help with specific shapes - (Post attempt before asking)

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  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx greentooth
    Hello Folks, im just wondering how the heck would you model this part super fast? What I know it was created in Modo and screenshot is taken from maya. Im wondering if are there any suppa fast tricks you can use to provide shapes like that? For example Sub-d modelling - and making a turbo smooth, or procedural bridging etc.  If there are any PROs who could explain me this example, would be great and really thankfull. Im always trying to solve this kind of riddles to incerase my speed workflow insead of each-poly modelling. Thanks!
    firstly model all parts seperatly. Dont attach them. Just the big shape, secondary and threshery. When you have put them in place. You can see how many segments the big cylinder needs to hold the Secondary shape. And when that is done, see if those segments are enough to hold the smaller part. if not, subdivide the mesh once and then add the smallest.
  • Paskuihernandez
    Also another thing you can do to be a bit faster but maybe with no so good results is to apply a chamfer to the hard edges so they create some support loops that will helps you to get the sub-d result in less time. But, with round shapes you'll need to fix some n-gons for sure manually.
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    That shape is literally just a cylinder.
  • sacboi
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    sacboi polycounter
    @Przerywnik for an optimised polygonal workflow, research for example a combined technique implementing boolean operands for hard surface subd content creation however results will tend to vary dependant upon object complexity plus alongside personal finesse working with your app/s of choice.
  • Przerywnik
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    Przerywnik polycounter lvl 3
    @Paskuihernandez
    @perna
    @sacboi
    @wirrexx
     Thank you for your reply folks!!  

    @sacboi
     thanks for the tip, gonna google that! English is not my native language, sometime i coudnt find a good technical keywords to put into google to find it :D briliant tip!
  • sacboi
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    sacboi polycounter
    ...you're welcome, I'll also link a couple of resources as a kind of guide, that may help shed some light as to Boolean intergration or perhaps 'acceptence' as a viable technique for use in game res HS asset generation nowadays, as opposed to when I first started out:

    https://polycount.com/discussion/168610/3ds-max-zbrush-proboolean-dynamesh-hardsurface-workflow-tutorial/p1

    https://blendermarket.com/products/hard-surface-modeling-in-blender

    (...if you've time and can afford the fee, I'd strongly recommend checking out the Blender stuff, if nothing else there's some really interesting workflow demo's covering a wide array of methods, either common and uncommon)


  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    No, seriously. It's a cylinder.




  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx greentooth
    perna said:
    No, seriously. It's a cylinder.




    Move aside Piccasso.. WE GOT PERNASSO IN THE HOUSE!
  • sacboi
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    sacboi polycounter
    Lol...took the words right out of my mouth :)
  • zachagreg
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    zachagreg interpolator
    sacboi said:
    ...you're welcome, I'll also link a couple of resources as a kind of guide, that may help shed some light as to Boolean intergration or perhaps 'acceptence' as a viable technique for use in game res HS asset generation nowadays, as opposed to when I first started out:

    https://polycount.com/discussion/168610/3ds-max-zbrush-proboolean-dynamesh-hardsurface-workflow-tutorial/p1

    https://blendermarket.com/products/hard-surface-modeling-in-blender

    (...if you've time and can afford the fee, I'd strongly recommend checking out the Blender stuff, if nothing else there's some really interesting workflow demo's covering a wide array of methods, either common and uncommon)



    That blender one is a gold mine of information.
  • Przerywnik
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    Przerywnik polycounter lvl 3
    perna said:
    No, seriously. It's a cylinder.




    emm, i was more thinking about that angle connector between the extruded part and main cylinder shape. How do you do that? :D sorry if you guys felt trolled, i should somehow mark it with red circle to be more exact : P
  • Klunk
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    Klunk polycounter lvl 3
    I think gusset is the word you're looking for :)

  • sacboi
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    sacboi polycounter
    @Przerywnik apologies if that was the impression given, so to be clear your query was totally legit by the way.

    Additionally these types of objects are typically cast (via mold) due too engineered CNC specific tasks they're designed too perforn under load in certain environments hence the additional 'gusset' for extra strength. An engine block also perfectly illustrates this process to full effect, in fact I'll link a Tutes+ series authored by Laurens Corijn, Modeling/UV Mapping/Texturing/Real-Time render a low poly game res Hot Rod in 3ds Max/Photoshop/IDE.

    It was actually one of the first 'class A' project's end to end I'd attempted back when initially published in 2009 and IMHO still relevant nowadays as then.

    Anyway if interested check out these vids relating to the engine which describes in detail a straight forward workflow wirrexx noted upthread, where simple shapes/primitives can be used to represent a complex object.

    https://cgi.tutsplus.com/tutorials/creating-a-next-gen-video-game-hot-rod-the-complete-workflow-part-3--cg-2247

    Cheers
  • Madeira3d
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    Madeira3d polycounter lvl 3
    Hi there,

    What do you think is the best topology? 
    Also would you model it like this topology wise?

    Cheers


  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    Madeira: When you say "best", what do you mean? What is your definition of a good model? Do you feel that perhaps you've missed some rules and someone else could compliment your knowledge by pointing out mistakes? What are your own goals? I mean, the obvious ones. Is it uncertainty that prompts you to ask or is it that you seek the resolution to a specific issue? Sorry for this "answer" - I'm trying to understand the mental process and what goes into your deciding that a mesh is good enough.
  • Madeira3d
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    Madeira3d polycounter lvl 3
    Hi @perna, thank you for your help. So I’m modelling for smooth subdivision surfaces and if I subdivide the left geometry,it creates non smooth areas because of the spacing is far from regular, on the right results are good because polygons  are more uniform, but I also wanted maybe other modelling  topology alternatives to what I have done. Thanks
  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx greentooth
    Madeira3d said:
    Hi there,

    What do you think is the best topology? 
    Also would you model it like this topology wise?

    Cheers


    knockout version of your shoe base. base mesh as few polys as possible. Turbo smoothed using Smoothing groups. and look at how direction of the edgeflow on the extruded edges. 
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    @Madeira3d

    See how this design is really just three quads, and you can subdivide and subdivide that as you need more.

    I tend to think in terms of these very simple 3d grids/voxels. Flow control happens down at the polygon level, so it means that even a coarse mesh of this style has a lot of control.

    To accompany this approach try practising transitioning between different numbers of sides and segments in an n-gon. Say a rectangle with its sides divided into 3, 12, 3 , and 7 .The 3 from the left needs to flow into the 12 on the right and the 3 up top needs to flow into 7 on the bottom. This practice will unlock many secrets of modeling if you really pay attention to what you're doing.

    another advantage of the grid approach is localised error (c). If a vert is out of place, you don't get bad shading over a large area, you get something which may even look like a natural depression or defect, wear and tear, whatever.

    Just to make it clear - the idea isn't to make these big, dense quad meshes, but to resolve all main flow issues when the mesh is just a bunch of crude boxes. Every time you subdivide this to add detail it will resolve beautifully, you can just keep dumping in as much detail as you want. 
    This kind of thing in conjunction with the chamfer modifier becomes very powerful, as it allows your these meshes that are super-crude cages, like 3d pixel art, but the final rendered items are just pristine, perfect curves and rounded corners.

    I don't even know if I'm helping, I just said a bunch of stuff. Here's the image. Check out that red. I made the wireframe red like that because it really hurts my head, it's so trippy.



    A - means, I'm too bored to write this part
    B - Chicago yo whats up eyyyyy





  • Yogev
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    Yogev node
    Hello there,

    I have this piece that I'm working on, and I was wondering if you guys have any idea on how to fix the topology/ edge flow. 


     I beveled it to be able to hold the shape when smoothing it. As I expected, the three lines that resulted made a sharp edge appear when smoothing it.
    So what I tried to do was to connect the edges in a different way, to eliminate that sharp edge. That however, didn't go very well, as there is still a bit of a weird shape going on, smooth or not.

    It is especially noticeable when putting next to another shape.

    Any ideas on how to fix this issue? Should I use something other than bevel to hold the shape? (I tried just putting some edge loops, but it gave a similar result)
  • Paskuihernandez
  • Yogev
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    Yogev node
    This should work: 
    Thank you for your comment. I had an attempt at connecting the edges like you suggested, though there is still a weird edge in there. 

  • Kanni3d
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    Kanni3d polycounter lvl 4
    Yogev said:
    This should work: 
    Thank you for your comment. I had an attempt at connecting the edges like you suggested, though there is still a weird edge in there. 

    Your edges are too tight, and too few. Add more supporting geometry so your polygons aren't so large/stretched apart, and make sure your support loop edges/chamfers aren't super tight. :)
  • sacboi
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    sacboi polycounter

    @Yogev Yeah, as the previous poster commented. Evenly spaced topology will enable correct shading behaviour under most lighting conditions especially on curved surfaces, not the 'bumpy uneveness' as displayed in your posted images.    

  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx greentooth
    sacboi said:

    @Yogev Yeah, as the previous poster commented. Evenly spaced topology will enable correct shading behaviour under most lighting conditions especially on curved surfaces, not the 'bumpy uneveness' as displayed in your posted images.    

    You cant kill the entire "issue" or artifact with your topology. Curved surfaces need to be Consistent. You know, almost even spacing between edges. 

    i have the same issue but less visible.  Ignore the edge in the middle just added it for fun. 
  • Yogev
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    Yogev node
    wirrexx said:
    sacboi said:

    @Yogev Yeah, as the previous poster commented. Evenly spaced topology will enable correct shading behaviour under most lighting conditions especially on curved surfaces, not the 'bumpy uneveness' as displayed in your posted images.    

    You cant kill the entire "issue" or artifact with your topology. Curved surfaces need to be Consistent. You know, almost even spacing between edges. 

    i have the same issue but less visible.  Ignore the edge in the middle just added it for fun. 
    I see what you mean. I thought not enough edges might be the problem, I was hoping to avoid messing with the shape too much. I'll definitely look at your example when I go and fix this shape.
    Thanks for the help.
  • blastframe
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    blastframe polycounter lvl 5

    Hello,

    I am having some issues beveling an inset for subd and was hoping someone out there could teach me.


    The first is a corner that includes an open face. The open face creates a nasty transition when subdivided:



    The second is advice on how to terminate the bevel for a triangle that flows into a flat shape:


    My model is attached if needed.

    Thank you!

  • Rolfisway
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    Rolfisway polycounter lvl 2

    Hello,

    I am having some issues beveling an inset for subd and was hoping someone out there could teach me.


    The first is a corner that includes an open face. The open face creates a nasty transition when subdivided:



    The second is advice on how to terminate the bevel for a triangle that flows into a flat shape:


    My model is attached if needed.

    Thank you!

    Hello. I think, you could do smth like this.

  • mrgkirq
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    mrgkirq polycounter lvl 3

    any idea how to get this on Curved Surface?

  • blastframe
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    blastframe polycounter lvl 5
    @Rolfisway, thank you, I'll give that a shot!
  • Kanni3d
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    Kanni3d polycounter lvl 4
    @mrgkirq

    Model the pieces flat. project them onto the helmet using ShapeMerge/FFD (in max atleast, probably equivalent in other packages)


    @ 5:40

  • AlexanderLawrence
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    AlexanderLawrence polycounter lvl 12
    I'm almost done modeling a collaborative robotic arm, but I've hit a roadblock. I cannot for the life of me figure out how to model the blue cap on the last joint of the arm. It looks like it should be made from the intersection of a cylinder and a tapered capsule-like shape, but what exactly?

    The grooves that give access to the screws are not a problem for me. It's just the overall shape of that weird cap that's giving me fits. Could one of you hard-surface experts give me some hints?


  • sacboi
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    sacboi polycounter
    @AlexanderLawrence studying this shape which for me there's a clear indication of it's CAD (solid double precision) design ethos, basically akin too most manufactured machined products in the modern era however that said for a 'close' approximation via a parametric workflow, probably a combination of techniques i.e. Boolean operands, proportional editing, modifier stack and a bit of manual tweaking, non-destructively of course.

    So for simplicity's sake I'd quad model each facet of the object separately then merge/transition them without hopefully throwing shading/distortion errors once subd is applied. No doubt a challenge for sure, any way I'll have a look at it and post a result in a couple of days or so just snow'd under with work ATM.
  • Yogev
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    Yogev node


    So I made this shape, and I was just wondering if the topology look okay, especially around the half cylinder area. I'm not 100% this is the best it can be. Should I change modify it somehow to make it look better, or is it good just the way it is?
  • Kanni3d
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    Kanni3d polycounter lvl 4
    Yogev said:
    Should I change modify it somehow to make it look better, or is it good just the way it is?


    Looks okay. Could remove some dense edges, and flow the edges a bit better for subdivision, which I'm assuming this is for.  Highlighted edges were added to assist in maintaining shapes too.


  • Yogev
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    Yogev node
     So I think I might be missing something here with this new piece. Another curved surface with shading issues. I thought maybe the problem might be not enough edges at first, but despite adding more the problem still seem to be there, so maybe I just need to cut it differently?



    And this is the base shape, which I cute into the different pieces:

  • Revel
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    Revel greentooth
    Just did a quick and dirty edit roughly 3-4 mins on the mesh. Please try to understand the concept of subd before attempting to do hard surface stuff, this thread literally filled with similar questions over and over again and people doesn't seem to read any of the fundamental basics being explained many times before.

  • Yzii
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    Yzii null
    Hi guys ! I have encountered this interesting topology issue ( at least for me ) when working on one of concept from Oscar Cafaro. How would you properly model this kind of spherical indent on sharp edge?  I kinda struggle with clean topology here ...
  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx greentooth
    Yogev said:
     So I think I might be missing something here with this new piece. Another curved surface with shading issues. I thought maybe the problem might be not enough edges at first, but despite adding more the problem still seem to be there, so maybe I just need to cut it differently?



    And this is the base shape, which I cute into the different pieces:

    My Mesh is by all means not perfect. But the steps are there to make you understand. I started with a plane and extruded it using Turbosmootmodifier. This to see that the curve is Both even in spacing and too see that the curve is correct. 

    I Then Applied a edit poly on top of it to work with what i have. And noticed in this case, that the curve needed more segments. This is where i added another turbosmooth and another edit poly on top of it. AS you see i cut my "panels" inbetween my existing topology. 



    You could also model it flat and cut in the bevels. When done, you add a turbosmooth modifier and then bend modifier. I do not recommend this mostly because your mesh probably would land on a higher account. But i will recommend it, cause sometimes it gets you a faster results.
  • Yogev
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    Yogev node
    wirrexx said:

    My Mesh is by all means not perfect. But the steps are there to make you understand. I started with a plane and extruded it using Turbosmootmodifier. This to see that the curve is Both even in spacing and too see that the curve is correct. 

    I Then Applied a edit poly on top of it to work with what i have. And noticed in this case, that the curve needed more segments. This is where i added another turbosmooth and another edit poly on top of it. AS you see i cut my "panels" inbetween my existing topology. 



    You could also model it flat and cut in the bevels. When done, you add a turbosmooth modifier and then bend modifier. I do not recommend this mostly because your mesh probably would land on a higher account. But i will recommend it, cause sometimes it gets you a faster results.
    Just to be sure I follow you, is "edit poly" the same as using the "multi cut" tool in Maya?
    What I fail to understand, is why do you cut inbetween the existing topology, instead of using the edges you already have? What is the advantage of that?
    I thought about cutting a flat plane and the apply a modifier of sort to bend it. I might give that a go too, but it might actually be more complicated. I try to not goo to high with the poly count if I can. 
  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx greentooth
    Yogev said:
    wirrexx said:

    My Mesh is by all means not perfect. But the steps are there to make you understand. I started with a plane and extruded it using Turbosmootmodifier. This to see that the curve is Both even in spacing and too see that the curve is correct. 

    I Then Applied a edit poly on top of it to work with what i have. And noticed in this case, that the curve needed more segments. This is where i added another turbosmooth and another edit poly on top of it. AS you see i cut my "panels" inbetween my existing topology. 



    You could also model it flat and cut in the bevels. When done, you add a turbosmooth modifier and then bend modifier. I do not recommend this mostly because your mesh probably would land on a higher account. But i will recommend it, cause sometimes it gets you a faster results.
    Just to be sure I follow you, is "edit poly" the same as using the "multi cut" tool in Maya?
    What I fail to understand, is why do you cut inbetween the existing topology, instead of using the edges you already have? What is the advantage of that?
    I thought about cutting a flat plane and the apply a modifier of sort to bend it. I might give that a go too, but it might actually be more complicated. I try to not goo to high with the poly count if I can. 
    I think in Maya it is when you subdivide the mesh and continue working on it. In 3Ds max its just a modifier i can put above the smoothed version so it is none destructive workflow. And i cut in between those edges because the mesh itself does not contain enough segments to work with to get the wanted results. This was just to show you how i would to it. i Couldve easly gone up to as many segments as in your shot to work with existing edges. But with my mesh, i have less control points therefore easier to work with. It is always good to work with as less control points as possible. 
  • Elarionus
    I'm working on a ship based off of some concept art, and the shapes are very bubbly, and I'm having a hard time both creating them and putting them together. I've been trying to get the engine to look right especially, with how one side of it sorta curves inward to a sphere at the front of the engine intake. It seems like it would be super simple, but it's proving to be the hardest thing I've ever modeled.



  • Yogev
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    Yogev node
    wirrexx said:
    I think in Maya it is when you subdivide the mesh and continue working on it. In 3Ds max its just a modifier i can put above the smoothed version so it is none destructive workflow. And i cut in between those edges because the mesh itself does not contain enough segments to work with to get the wanted results. This was just to show you how i would to it. i Couldve easly gone up to as many segments as in your shot to work with existing edges. But with my mesh, i have less control points therefore easier to work with. It is always good to work with as less control points as possible. 
    Well I tried changing the topology on the higher mesh a bit, and I think it looks a bit better now.


    I also had a go at making it with less edges, and when smoothing, there is a noticeable gap between the panels.

  • Kanni3d
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    Kanni3d polycounter lvl 4
    Yogev said:
    wirrexx said:
    I think in Maya it is when you subdivide the mesh and continue working on it. In 3Ds max its just a modifier i can put above the smoothed version so it is none destructive workflow. And i cut in between those edges because the mesh itself does not contain enough segments to work with to get the wanted results. This was just to show you how i would to it. i Couldve easly gone up to as many segments as in your shot to work with existing edges. But with my mesh, i have less control points therefore easier to work with. It is always good to work with as less control points as possible. 
    Well I tried changing the topology on the higher mesh a bit, and I think it looks a bit better now.


    I also had a go at making it with less edges, and when smoothing, there is a noticeable gap between the panels.

    Less edges, the worse it is. Have more geometry to support those details is what everyone was getting at :)
  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx greentooth
    Modell it flat and bend it. 

  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    @Elarionus
    easy-peasy:
    -model out everything as flat shapes, just like in the concept
    -extrude all the shapes.
    -modify profiles to be either smooth or flat according to the shading in the concept
    -mode the parts on the depth axis until they are in the correct relative position

    You've started much too soon with detail work. Block out first, unless you want to spend ten to twenty times as much time as other artists making the exact same thing.

    Also keep in mind that this is not a concept. It's a bunch of blobs. 
  • sacboi
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    sacboi polycounter

    AlexanderLawrence said:

    I'm almost done modeling a collaborative robotic arm, but I've hit a roadblock. I cannot for the life of me figure out how to model the blue cap on the last joint of the arm. It looks like it should be made from the intersection of a cylinder and a tapered capsule-like shape, but what exactly?

    The grooves that give access to the screws are not a problem for me. It's just the overall shape of that weird cap that's giving me fits. Could one of you hard-surface experts give me some hints?

    Apologies for the very late feedback on your issue, modelling this piece. Basically starting from a low poly cubesphere, then minor manual tweaks with proportional editing alongside mirror/symmetry modifier too create a close enough match:


  • Mad_Rabbit
    Has anyone ever tried to make corn husk objects or have any idea how to model them to look as close to reality as possible?

    The main cage (metal parts) is easy peasy, but I find myself struggling with all the weaving/ bending parts :s
    Any ideas how to approach all those crazy parts?

  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx greentooth
    Has anyone ever tried to make corn husk objects or have any idea how to model them to look as close to reality as possible?

    The main cage (metal parts) is easy peasy, but I find myself struggling with all the weaving/ bending parts :s
    Any ideas how to approach all those crazy parts?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2r7jA6EAlg4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t-oCeApEI8
  • Mad_Rabbit
    wirrexx said:
    Has anyone ever tried to make corn husk objects or have any idea how to model them to look as close to reality as possible?

    The main cage (metal parts) is easy peasy, but I find myself struggling with all the weaving/ bending parts :s
    Any ideas how to approach all those crazy parts?


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2r7jA6EAlg4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t-oCeApEI8
    Thanks for the links, but this takes care only partly of the challenge I'm facing.
    You see all those additional bendings and differences in sizes of "rope"? That's where my struggles are (I might not clearly stated my problem before).
    For example I've used helix for the handle and the bottom part, but it's extremely uniform. Maybe the good quality texture would help? Or would you model mode detailed "ropes" and then would add not that detailed texture on top of it?
    Also, the main weaving part - it's very diverse in sizes and forms. Should the texture take care of this or it should be my input to model every single part to look realistic and non-repeating? I wonder how other, more experienced people would approach this stuff.
    ps. I'm modeling in 3ds max and can't use any other modeling software (has to be model history stack).
  • zachagreg
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    zachagreg interpolator
    Just grab some edge loops and scale them up and down. It only takes a minute to double click like 30 edge loops and scale them. Then repeat for some other random edge loops. Then just check for blatant overlap or clipping geometry. Or since you're in max you can try dropping a noise modifier on the stack and set the scale correctly. 
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