If I had a daughter, I wouldn't want her seeing that her gender was typically displayed as needlessly scantily clad, big knockered, "sex sells" devices.
Well too late, that's what she would be going to grow up with because I'm quite sure it won't be going away. You'd be better off providing her an educated upbringing and nurture her own sense of self-confidence and esteem; also making a point of fiction versus fact, marketing and social cultural changes. Sex will just keep selling, but it will get better with more conscientiouswomen and men giving a bit of thought to the issue.
A bit of thought is all that's needed.
Being ignorant and creating shallow stereotypes is not the answer.
Being overly concerned about offence and compromising on artistic vision is not the answer.
The best designs I've seen maintain their artistic vision while embracing an understanding of the intended communication with their audience.
The other issue for me is plausibility. The idea of someone running around in a thong and fishnets to do battle seems completely implausible, even within the realm of fiction.
I suppose that's just personal preference in terms of suspense of disbelief. For me it takes very little to completely unhinge my disbelief, the small justifications of Quiet's skin-powers combined with the exaggerated and quirky world of MGS is enough for me to be completely at easy with her design.
Well, since then ... people got access to Facebook. It's pretty much as simple as that ...
It has always been about kojimas own words here, it started with him talking about intentionally erotic characters for more cosplay and better selling figurines, this has been the thing people reacted to.
That outfit has no place in a war zone . That could make sense in reality, but in a game??? a game that portrays fictional characters?
I mean, let me ask you this, can you differentiate reality from fiction?
Are you really so insulted by a bunch of polygons?
A real woman != bunch of polys that look like a woman, or a drawing of a woman, even a picture on a porn mag it is not a woman, its a fantasy
Its just fantasy, nothing more, everyone fantasize so many things, some of these fantasies are considered bad
like killing people, do you think it is ok to have a fantasy about killing something or someone?
Let me put it this way, if you design a weapon that is a part of a fantasy game, where the player could use it to kill and mutilate fictional people,
dont you think that is bad taste, a despicable work?, or it is perfectly fine because its just a fantasy?
What about a game of war, where the only purpose is to kill people, I could say, weell, its a lazy game because the killing games always sell,
they have no merit it all
That´s totally wrong, if you work in this industry you know that every model you make, even if its a semi naked chick, cost a lot of time, money
and effort to produce , and the Japanese people are known for the dedication to their work, calling this design lazy...
I dont think this over sexualized characters alienates women from games, they clearly have different taste of games, probably what alienates
women , particularly in these games, Its the killing, maybe they dont find particularly interesting or exciting to kill things
I don't know if I should be involved in this conversation, but I see what point Ubeor is making.
I just want to play this game for the action. The characters and story of MGS has always been too over the top for me, to the point of being flat out impossible to endure. MGS3 and 4 went over the line, I've never skipped a cutscene on my first playthrough in my LIFE until I played those games. No regrets, I just can't handle the style of storytelling.
I'm surprised that people aren't up in arms about the female characters in MGS4! That stuff was just MESSED UP. If you recall the cutscenes when you defeated any of the 4 beasts, you will remember how messed up they were. I just started skipping them when I couldn't take anymore.
Really, Makkon? I always felt that MGS3 had the most compelling story, and was almost as grounded as MGS1. MGS4 was a giant clusterfuck, though. I don't think anyone will argue that.
If she has chameleon powers, why wear awful torn stockings at all? Clearly showing all the skin she has to show is the way to go, right, you guys? Give her X stickers on her nipples.
I understand that she has the same photosynthesis ability as "The End" in MGS3, and it would make sense for her to have large areas of bare skin but that doesn't mean she has to look like some crack addict hooker that looks like she belongs standing on street corners in a red light district.
Even so in that attire in a war zone she should be covered in cuts and scars lol.
why does it matter though? there are people out in the real world who choose to wear the same and LESS, just because they feel like it, it's their own personal expression.
if you've got the balls to judge those people the same way, fantastic... i look forward to hearing about your black eye.
ultimately we know nothing about the character, only how she looks. we don't know the motivation behind that appearance, and i'm sure there is one. you can use the argument "but this is a computer game character, we can choose to make her look however we want!" but that really is no different to telling a real person to dress the way that makes you more comfortable around them.
and to those who argue about the stupidity of design...
i wonder how many of you love playing games about exploring ancient forgotten tombs that just conveniently happen to have upgrades to your modern weapons, or ammo. or maybe after opening a door that's been sealed for a couple of hundred years you find bad guys crawling all over it.
there are plenty of asinine development choices out there that are equally and more abhorant than the choice of clothing for a character we know nothing about.
If she has chameleon powers, why wear awful torn stockings at all? Clearly showing all the skin she has to show is the way to go, right, you guys? Give her X stickers on her nipples.
As mentioned previously: torn stockings may be a stereotype of, but not exclusive to stripper/prostitues/sluts and I think it's pretty poor that people jump to such stereotypes just for the sake of rubbishing another stereotype they disapprove of.
Stockings are completely acceptable and normal female attire. Admittedly they are a bit silly to wear on the battlefield, but MGS is not afraid of silly. As for being torn, I doubt wearing them in such conditions prevents wear and tear.
Why does she wear them? Who knows? Stockings are definitely feminine and she may wish to wear something over her legs. Stockings are also practically transparent and will function with her skin-powers. Why not wear X stickers? Because she's still meant to be a person with a sense of dignity and or modesty - she may be overtly sexy and eroticised in her design, but that's no reason to completely dehumanise the character because of that.
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Also guys don't forget she is MUTE. She's not going to stand out as a character in the MGS universe with her fantastic prose.
But on a more serious note: Kojima made it clear from the beginning, sex sells, amd the female gamers will just have to live through yet another game of tactical camera angles and character equipment that justifies titillation.
I think there are some pretty harsh comments describing this character, and people are forgetting that the model is composed almost entirely of scan data and mocap data from a real person. So you are essentially insulting an actress and her portrayal of a character, and the concept art and costume of which she most likely saw before taking on the role. I highly doubt she would get the same vitriol and knee jerk offense if she was appearing in a sci-fi/fantasy military movie.
The woman who might be offended by this bikini girl are the same who couldn't wear it.
There's a lot of people crying about sexualization of women, I don't know where you live, but did someone force girls to use makeup, or light/tight wear?
And don't tell you don't look at sexy girls in the streets/autobus/school/whatever, because you can't say you like that girl for her personality if you have never talked to her, just like Quite, expect she doesn't talk, but you can't say she's a whore, a cheap prostitute because she wear bikini and torn pantacollant. Do you realize that you're are offending more people than you think you are protecting with your windmill fight?
The woman is sexualized and will be sexualized in the future, just a few examples:
They could have portrayed her in a different way? Sure, you don't have to make a female soldier almost naked to be sexy or appealing:
You're acting like is the evil man, who think about perverted things every ms, completely ignoring that they are perverted too, and like to show what they have:
This is for the "real female soldiers doesn't wear that", I think if they let them wore what they want, there is a possibility that someone will chose bikini and pantacollant.
Anyway, really think that there is an explanation of why she is almost naked, it could really be a prostitute (or posing as) after all, also, I find the glove she wear in her left arm quite interesting:
Is it part of an NBC suit, or other kind of chemical warfare protections?
The last few pages of this thread are entirely dedicated to exploring the complex nature of this character that we know almost nothing about and how it plays with her controversial image. Hardly simple.
But on a more serious note: Kojima made it clear from the beginning, sex sells, amd the female gamers will just have to live through yet another game of tactical camera angles and character equipment that justifies titillation.
Nobody is refuting this, everyone here justifying her design knows that sex appeal is a major component of it. Female gamers don't have to play it and if that's how they feel then like you I am sad that these particular women feel excluded as an audience for very particular games of which they may not have been part of the intended audience. Indeed they have few options in the greater gaming world, but I feel optimistic as every day I see more diverse games for more diverse people.
Meanwhile both men and women who do not care about that and are also the audience of MGS games will likely have all their needs fulfilled.
I also completely disagree that her powers and/or equipment are designed solely to justify titillation. I pretty confident those who designed her didn't start with a naked woman and then purposefully gave her only so much character and depth that would allow her to be as naked as possible. In fact considering MGS character designs, I theorise that her gender wasn't even the first thing on the drawing board.
I think there are some pretty harsh comments describing this character, and people are forgetting that the model is composed almost entirely of scan data and mocap data from a real person.
Did they do her whole body? In that video I watched I thought I only saw them scan her face.
Is it part of an NBC suit, or other kind of chemical warfare protections
I assumed that if she always holds her gun the way she does in those pics, then as a sniper she would be leaning/lying on it a lot and maybe need protection.
Then again, arms in MGS have often become symbolic or a part of the story. Maybe she is disfigured/scarred there? Perhaps it might be the only part of her body she can't change the colour of? I'm also reminded of Mystique from X-Men. She was practically naked although her powers allowed her to feel/look clothed at her whim. Maybe this is similar and Quiet may not feel as exposed as she looks.
I think there are some pretty harsh comments describing this character, and people are forgetting that the model is composed almost entirely of scan data and mocap data from a real person. So you are essentially insulting an actress and her portrayal of a character, and the concept art and costume of which she most likely saw before taking on the role. I highly doubt she would get the same vitriol and knee jerk offense if she was appearing in a sci-fi/fantasy military movie.
so far i only see a scanned face, which is also the best part of her - well she looks tired but thats allright, together with the outfit it looks pretty strange, but oh well.
The woman is sexualized and will be sexualized in the future, just a few examples:
because it was that way it has to stay this way? maybe we should start stoning women to death again because they have a lover
They could have portrayed her in a different way? Sure, you don't have to make a female soldier almost naked to be sexy or appealing:
actually i think that image has so much more appeal and would be pretty refreshing to see.
Could of given her granny pants or something. Camouflage skin or not, still looks like she was designed by a 20 year old male. I can't imagine an outfit like that holds up well in some harsh desert terrain.
so far i only see a scanned face, which is also the best part of her - well she looks tired but thats allright, together with the outfit it looks pretty strange, but oh well.
If their GDC presentation is any indication then everything in the game is based on photogrammetric scan data, including small props. In general the metal gear series has always introduced characters with the actor's name and tried to mimic the stature and realism of film.
So it's certainly intended by Kojima that you identify and respect the characters as actors portraying roles rather than just pieces of art. The 3D model is just an artistic vehicle for the actor, much like a costume or makeup in film. This is why he's promoting videos of their setup with Kiefer Sutherland talking about the role and Stefanie Joosten getting her face scanned, in hopes probably to lend the genre the same legitimacy that film has as a storytelling device.
With Quantic Dreams' and probably many other games in the next console generation going this hyper-realistic route, we should at the very least take this into account when critiquing the art. If you were to say that Ellen Page's model in Beyond Two Souls is "Disgusting", you would in effect be saying Ellen Page herself is "Disgusting".
so far i only see a scanned face, which is also the best part of her - well she looks tired but thats allright, together with the outfit it looks pretty strange, but oh well.
i believe it is full body scan, being "next-gen" and all......
well there are still artists involved and there are still mistakes beeing made, scans are no guarantee for great art (and i don't claim i am any better) but the chest is clearly sculpted beeing nude in mind, if the images are right she was scanned with a bra. Now that was changed and a bra simulated on top, with no interaction between, bra, skin and overall tissue whatsoever.
a perfect example of that interaction is in the image MM just posted
So yeah even if all is scanned, that data isn't untouched and artists, me included make mistakes. Be it due to lack of knowledge or lack of time, i can't say.
However i still think the whole thing looks stupid and i think it's a waste of ressources to use all that tech for this result. But thats just my oppinion, lots of people like slutty chicks in games - i'm sick of seeing them all the time.
yea, agreed. it is like the introduction of calculators. while calculators are great for doing basic math it soon creates a generations of kids who cant do basic math at all without relying on machines. why learn anatomy/skin deformation/sculpting etc. when you can just scan and clean up and call it a day. artists become lazy and stop learning and making simple mistakes like the one you posted above.
I dont think this over sexualized characters alienates women from games, they clearly have different taste of games, probably what alienates
women , particularly in these games, Its the killing, maybe they dont find particularly interesting or exciting to kill things
Now look, I can't speak for everybody, but after being in the same room as someone who played MSG 4, it's not the violence at all that put me off from wanting to play it. It was being subjected to dialogue and storytelling that felt like a teenage Uwe Boll's homework for his creative writing class.
Originally Posted by Neox View Post
actually i think that image has so much more appeal and would be pretty refreshing to see.
yes she would appear directly as generic background enemy soldier.
when the developer make a male character anything but generic bald guy. they would never make other important character look like boring other military shooter game.
the whole design in mgs never try to mimic real world practical equipment and uniform anyway. .
Just google 'Stephanie Joosten' and you'll see she's tiny. compare these with the final renders.
From what I can tell, they resized her head, thickened up her arms and waist, and filled out her back. I can't see many pics of Stephanie's lower half, but I'm sure that is touched up as well.
Either way, they left her face almost untouched, and it looks really bad on the idealized body below. That's my main gripe with this model.
What I wonder and what I ask people defending this is ... what do you think, honestly, came first? The outfit or the story justification for it?
What you said here,
People saw the trailer first, they raised an eyebrow at the bikini desert sniper but didn't think more of that, it's the ridiculous kojima type characters again.
It was when he started talking about reasons for doing this and that when it came to design-choices which acted as an eyeopener for a lot of people, what kind of attitude was Kojima bringing to the table of game-development?
I agree she's a pretty terrible character design. But from Kojima it's to be expected. Doesn't make it okay, but it is what it is.
I'm solution oriented. We've identified the problem. Kojima isn't going to change his mind, so what can we do?
Make better character designs ourselves.
That's what PC is here for, right? Let's learn from the mistakes of the industry and APPLY what we've learned, because as long as threads like "3d girls thread" can get away with pointless titillating character designs and receive nothing but praise, we have learned nothing.
I assumed that if she always holds her gun the way she does in those pics, then as a sniper she would be leaning/lying on it a lot and maybe need protection.
Then again, arms in MGS have often become symbolic or a part of the story. Maybe she is disfigured/scarred there? Perhaps it might be the only part of her body she can't change the colour of? I'm also reminded of Mystique from X-Men. She was practically naked although her powers allowed her to feel/look clothed at her whim. Maybe this is similar and Quiet may not feel as exposed as she looks.
That's one possibility, also her collant are warned out near her knee, but in this case was better to wear knee pads, some people called it "lazy" but I find her design interesting.
because it was that way it has to stay this way? maybe we should start stoning women to death again because they have a love
That's not what I said, stoning people is not one of the "low level" needs of the human brain, it's a collateral effect of our (in this case their) society, that made you believe that's it's right to stone people to death, just because that's god's will.
Also, just because she's a female character, doesn't mean that all the character in the game are supersexy bikini models, and doesn't mean that's how they see all women, usually in Metal Gear there are various characters (some exaggerated too), look at Sniper Wolf with her jacket opened, showing her "stuff" and then the other female characters, are they portrayed the same way? Or they represent various type of women?
In this case she looks like the "slutty" character, what's the problem? They can't made all the characters like puritan + Human Rights activists.
actually i think that image has so much more appeal and would be pretty refreshing to see.
I chose that because I like it too, she's more balanced and natural, but well, they have made this character to please the majority of people, as they are targeting to sell a lot of copies, I don't know how many people would have chose to make a niche game just to please few people, not counting the money they had invested in the project, unfortunately (depends of how you look at it) this is not our character nor our game, and speaking for myself, the first thing I'd have changed is the breast size, they look like futsal balls, but that's probably just me, other people may prefer even larger one.
I must say that even the actress dislike how they portrayed her in the game, but she believes that Kojima had an explanation to that, otherwise, for me, it's just a cheap trick to sell more copies, but I believe in Kojima.
I didn't want to comment here, but I have a honest question that my curiosity needs to satisfy.
When I look at this character, out of context, I see a regular metal gear character. None of her "features", as in her physique, are "sexualized" for the sake of sexy; it all looks possible for someone out there to have a similar body. Her attire may be questionable in real life, but its a game.
May question is, why all the fuss about this particular character out of context?
When a game like, for example, Borderlands 2 is riddled with sexual innuendos, has one character(Mad Moxxi) that is mainly there for all the sex jokes and look sexy, and Borderlands 2 was well received from many, I heard nary a complaint of "overly sexualized" characters, etc...As well as not hearing any complaints of Mad Moxxi, and I've seen many female cosplayers/gamers that just love Mad Moxxi.
What is so different about this case? Excluding Kojima's comment, just the game itself.
Also with the Borderlands 2 example, don't tell me "It works for that game's setting" because I've seen comments in here that state context doesn't justify it.
I am honestly curious about the strong adamant feelings towards this character.
Mad Moxxi is a genuinely interesting character, that is fun to play as, and has a creative design and enjoyable personality. The "over" in the word Over-Sexualization hints to me that when a character's sexual appeal supersedes her personality and character, she become unbalanced. It's perfectly acceptable to have a sexy, sultry, scantily dressed lady character if her design makes sense in the story, and she's a character written with some honest thought and depth. Compelling characters are well loved by many, no matter how sexy they may be. One-dimensional characters are irritating and insulting, because they are treated as plot devices and means to an end (like the prize at the end) rather than a human being with aspirations, flaws, and agency.
But valid question because we really don't know anything about Quiet.
It's perfectly acceptable to have a sexy, sultry, scantily dressed lady character if her design makes sense in the story, and she's a character written with some honest thought and depth.
I agree completely. Yet still people complained about Bayonetta and Lollipop Chainsaw to high heaven.
May question is, why all the fuss about this particular character out of context?
The fuss is irregular. Due to this controverial topic these days, there were plenty of people who 'noticed' Quiets outfit but were like "oh whatever". Once Kojima talked about making her erotic, this blew the hell up.
because it was that way it has to stay this way? maybe we should start stoning women to death again because they have a love
It's not black and white, it's not black and white, it's not black and white. Please don't lets this turn out like the tropes thread.
because as long as threads like "3d girls thread" can get away with pointless titillating character designs and receive nothing but praise, we have learned nothing.
Does the entire community need to represent that level of thinking? Learning about depth and technical thinking can improve designs, but I hope *not* making pointless titillating characters designs isn't going to be a marker for progress. Artists can do what they want.
What I wonder and what I ask people defending this is ... what do you think, honestly, came first? The outfit or the story justification for it?
Defnitely the story/character came first. MGS characters are more about symbolism/metaphor/relationship than about looks - that's their purpose.
what kind of attitude was Kojima bringing to the table of game-development?
The best attitude IMO. The designers I respect the most are the ones making the games they want to make. His ability to craft a serious series this beloved and full of quirks and fancies is great in this day and age.
But he's not. He specifically said this character was designed to promote cosplay and sell figurines.
Not under duress.
He said he specifically asked his artists to make her more sexier for that reason. Unless some evidence comes out to the contrary, it's completely his decision to make those changes and if they were directly against his intentions for the character he wouldn't have done it.
(I suppose these are being translated by an assistant, as the picture links send to japanese versions of the tweets, making me think that many of these were originally written in japanese)
The one that started it all :
I've been ordering to Yoji to make the character more erotic, and he did it well. Recently I've been making characters this way. (cont)
(note that the sentence in not ending here. The period is actually more to be read as a semicolon, to be followed by an explanation of his recent way of creating characters, detailled in his following post)
I create the setting thoroughly, how he/she spent early life, name, style, favorite phrase, fashion, action to stand the character out.
Followed by :
The initial target is to make u want to do cosplay or its figurine to sell well.
He then proceeds to explain details of the reveal for cosplayers who asked for the info.
Then :
The character I asked Yoji to make it more erotic, this one may not be cosplayable.
From there, my guess would be that there might have been a misunderstanding around the word "initial". It would be great to hear the opinion of japanese speakers. I think that he actually means "initial" as in, "at first sight". Just like how everyone has been seeing the character (the appearance of a rather bland sex doll)
It seems to me that indeed, his intent has always been to create the character this way in order to smartly troll the audience and make people believe that she might be just a dumb sex doll, just like many female characters have been designed for years. Like these : http://www.hlj.com/top/Fig
But in the game, there might very well be much more to it than what it seems.
His last post on the subject :
I know there's people concerning about "Quiet" but don't worry. I created her character as an antithesis to the women characters appeared in the past fighting game who are excessively exposed. "Quiet" who doesn't have a word will be teased in the story as well.
But once you recognize the secret reason for her exposure, you will feel ashamed of your words & deeds. Theme of "MGSV" is "GENE"⇒"MEME"⇒"SCENE"⇒"PEACE"⇒"RACE". Story touches the misunderstanding, prejudice, hatred, conflict caused by the difference of language, race, custom, culture, and preference.
The response of "Quiet" disclosure few days ago incited by the net is exactly what "MGSV" itself is.
Considering the themes for MGSV and the clear downfall of Big Boss, I've got a feeling that with Quiet being the one character who can't talk, will be the most morally centred of them all.
MM and Eld, thanks for taking time out to respond. I think I made an illogical leap and assumed that because people are offended by a virtual bikini clad female they would also be offended by a real one. Hence the comparison to Victoria Secret and porn.
People saw the trailer first, they raised an eyebrow at the bikini desert sniper but didn't think more of that, it's the ridiculous kojima type characters again.
It was when he started talking about reasons for doing this and that when it came to design-choices which acted as an eyeopener for a lot of people, what kind of attitude was Kojima bringing to the table of game-development?
This clarifies it a bit more, and that its more a discussion of Kojima's argument for justifying a poorly clothed soldier. Instead of saying, "Guys wait and play the game to understand my choices" it was "I want people to cosplay her and sell figures." I do agree they could do a better design, perhaps along the lines of the recently debuted female in BF4. I'm curious to see if Quiet will be in a bikini through the whole game or just in a certain segment.
Either way, interesting points by all, glad I could be part of the discussion even if I was off a bit.
The lighting looks pretty nice at times, though the buildings look really basic are medium far draw distances for some reason. The specular reflections look good though. But the shadowed areas seem a bit flat and boring.
I'm not sure if they have God mode on in that demo or not, but that doesn't look like sneaking to me. It probably is God mode, but the last bit with the slow motion car in the air cutscene made it look like it was their intention to show so much action. And yeah, the lighting is pretty nice at times.
the 360/ps3 versions still hold up quite well though, they look fantastic!
the only real difference you can see is the increased output resolution on the ps4, the xbox one has slightly sharper textures but the lack of resolution makes it almost unnoticeable in a still shot, so in moving gameplay it'll probably be less noticeable.
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Well too late, that's what she would be going to grow up with because I'm quite sure it won't be going away. You'd be better off providing her an educated upbringing and nurture her own sense of self-confidence and esteem; also making a point of fiction versus fact, marketing and social cultural changes. Sex will just keep selling, but it will get better with more conscientiouswomen and men giving a bit of thought to the issue.
A bit of thought is all that's needed.
Being ignorant and creating shallow stereotypes is not the answer.
Being overly concerned about offence and compromising on artistic vision is not the answer.
The best designs I've seen maintain their artistic vision while embracing an understanding of the intended communication with their audience.
I suppose that's just personal preference in terms of suspense of disbelief. For me it takes very little to completely unhinge my disbelief, the small justifications of Quiet's skin-powers combined with the exaggerated and quirky world of MGS is enough for me to be completely at easy with her design.
Aye, people on Reddit are predicting that she's got some sort of skin-based Octocamo.
It has always been about kojimas own words here, it started with him talking about intentionally erotic characters for more cosplay and better selling figurines, this has been the thing people reacted to.
I mean, let me ask you this, can you differentiate reality from fiction?
Are you really so insulted by a bunch of polygons?
A real woman != bunch of polys that look like a woman, or a drawing of a woman, even a picture on a porn mag it is not a woman, its a fantasy
Its just fantasy, nothing more, everyone fantasize so many things, some of these fantasies are considered bad
like killing people, do you think it is ok to have a fantasy about killing something or someone?
Let me put it this way, if you design a weapon that is a part of a fantasy game, where the player could use it to kill and mutilate fictional people,
dont you think that is bad taste, a despicable work?, or it is perfectly fine because its just a fantasy?
What about a game of war, where the only purpose is to kill people, I could say, weell, its a lazy game because the killing games always sell,
they have no merit it all
That´s totally wrong, if you work in this industry you know that every model you make, even if its a semi naked chick, cost a lot of time, money
and effort to produce , and the Japanese people are known for the dedication to their work, calling this design lazy...
I dont think this over sexualized characters alienates women from games, they clearly have different taste of games, probably what alienates
women , particularly in these games, Its the killing, maybe they dont find particularly interesting or exciting to kill things
I just want to play this game for the action. The characters and story of MGS has always been too over the top for me, to the point of being flat out impossible to endure. MGS3 and 4 went over the line, I've never skipped a cutscene on my first playthrough in my LIFE until I played those games. No regrets, I just can't handle the style of storytelling.
I'm surprised that people aren't up in arms about the female characters in MGS4! That stuff was just MESSED UP. If you recall the cutscenes when you defeated any of the 4 beasts, you will remember how messed up they were. I just started skipping them when I couldn't take anymore.
http://www.gamesradar.com/metal-gear-solid-5-news-release-date/
Even so in that attire in a war zone she should be covered in cuts and scars lol.
if you've got the balls to judge those people the same way, fantastic... i look forward to hearing about your black eye.
ultimately we know nothing about the character, only how she looks. we don't know the motivation behind that appearance, and i'm sure there is one. you can use the argument "but this is a computer game character, we can choose to make her look however we want!" but that really is no different to telling a real person to dress the way that makes you more comfortable around them.
and to those who argue about the stupidity of design...
i wonder how many of you love playing games about exploring ancient forgotten tombs that just conveniently happen to have upgrades to your modern weapons, or ammo. or maybe after opening a door that's been sealed for a couple of hundred years you find bad guys crawling all over it.
there are plenty of asinine development choices out there that are equally and more abhorant than the choice of clothing for a character we know nothing about.
As mentioned previously: torn stockings may be a stereotype of, but not exclusive to stripper/prostitues/sluts and I think it's pretty poor that people jump to such stereotypes just for the sake of rubbishing another stereotype they disapprove of.
Stockings are completely acceptable and normal female attire. Admittedly they are a bit silly to wear on the battlefield, but MGS is not afraid of silly. As for being torn, I doubt wearing them in such conditions prevents wear and tear.
Why does she wear them? Who knows? Stockings are definitely feminine and she may wish to wear something over her legs. Stockings are also practically transparent and will function with her skin-powers. Why not wear X stickers? Because she's still meant to be a person with a sense of dignity and or modesty - she may be overtly sexy and eroticised in her design, but that's no reason to completely dehumanise the character because of that.
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Also guys don't forget she is MUTE. She's not going to stand out as a character in the MGS universe with her fantastic prose.
But on a more serious note: Kojima made it clear from the beginning, sex sells, amd the female gamers will just have to live through yet another game of tactical camera angles and character equipment that justifies titillation.
There's a lot of people crying about sexualization of women, I don't know where you live, but did someone force girls to use makeup, or light/tight wear?
And don't tell you don't look at sexy girls in the streets/autobus/school/whatever, because you can't say you like that girl for her personality if you have never talked to her, just like Quite, expect she doesn't talk, but you can't say she's a whore, a cheap prostitute because she wear bikini and torn pantacollant. Do you realize that you're are offending more people than you think you are protecting with your windmill fight?
The woman is sexualized and will be sexualized in the future, just a few examples:
They could have portrayed her in a different way? Sure, you don't have to make a female soldier almost naked to be sexy or appealing:
You're acting like is the evil man, who think about perverted things every ms, completely ignoring that they are perverted too, and like to show what they have:
This is for the "real female soldiers doesn't wear that", I think if they let them wore what they want, there is a possibility that someone will chose bikini and pantacollant.
Anyway, really think that there is an explanation of why she is almost naked, it could really be a prostitute (or posing as) after all, also, I find the glove she wear in her left arm quite interesting:
Is it part of an NBC suit, or other kind of chemical warfare protections?
The last few pages of this thread are entirely dedicated to exploring the complex nature of this character that we know almost nothing about and how it plays with her controversial image. Hardly simple.
Nobody is refuting this, everyone here justifying her design knows that sex appeal is a major component of it. Female gamers don't have to play it and if that's how they feel then like you I am sad that these particular women feel excluded as an audience for very particular games of which they may not have been part of the intended audience. Indeed they have few options in the greater gaming world, but I feel optimistic as every day I see more diverse games for more diverse people.
Meanwhile both men and women who do not care about that and are also the audience of MGS games will likely have all their needs fulfilled.
I also completely disagree that her powers and/or equipment are designed solely to justify titillation. I pretty confident those who designed her didn't start with a naked woman and then purposefully gave her only so much character and depth that would allow her to be as naked as possible. In fact considering MGS character designs, I theorise that her gender wasn't even the first thing on the drawing board.
Did they do her whole body? In that video I watched I thought I only saw them scan her face.
I assumed that if she always holds her gun the way she does in those pics, then as a sniper she would be leaning/lying on it a lot and maybe need protection.
Then again, arms in MGS have often become symbolic or a part of the story. Maybe she is disfigured/scarred there? Perhaps it might be the only part of her body she can't change the colour of? I'm also reminded of Mystique from X-Men. She was practically naked although her powers allowed her to feel/look clothed at her whim. Maybe this is similar and Quiet may not feel as exposed as she looks.
so far i only see a scanned face, which is also the best part of her - well she looks tired but thats allright, together with the outfit it looks pretty strange, but oh well.
because it was that way it has to stay this way? maybe we should start stoning women to death again because they have a lover
actually i think that image has so much more appeal and would be pretty refreshing to see.
If their GDC presentation is any indication then everything in the game is based on photogrammetric scan data, including small props. In general the metal gear series has always introduced characters with the actor's name and tried to mimic the stature and realism of film.
So it's certainly intended by Kojima that you identify and respect the characters as actors portraying roles rather than just pieces of art. The 3D model is just an artistic vehicle for the actor, much like a costume or makeup in film. This is why he's promoting videos of their setup with Kiefer Sutherland talking about the role and Stefanie Joosten getting her face scanned, in hopes probably to lend the genre the same legitimacy that film has as a storytelling device.
With Quantic Dreams' and probably many other games in the next console generation going this hyper-realistic route, we should at the very least take this into account when critiquing the art. If you were to say that Ellen Page's model in Beyond Two Souls is "Disgusting", you would in effect be saying Ellen Page herself is "Disgusting".
i believe it is full body scan, being "next-gen" and all......
http://www.metalgearsolid.be/analyse_du_trailer_de_metal_gear_solid_v_e3_2013_157.html
a perfect example of that interaction is in the image MM just posted
So yeah even if all is scanned, that data isn't untouched and artists, me included make mistakes. Be it due to lack of knowledge or lack of time, i can't say.
However i still think the whole thing looks stupid and i think it's a waste of ressources to use all that tech for this result. But thats just my oppinion, lots of people like slutty chicks in games - i'm sick of seeing them all the time.
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH gosh that's a good point. Quality thread, you guys! (✿◠‿◠)*:･ﾟ✧
Now look, I can't speak for everybody, but after being in the same room as someone who played MSG 4, it's not the violence at all that put me off from wanting to play it. It was being subjected to dialogue and storytelling that felt like a teenage Uwe Boll's homework for his creative writing class.
Like Meryl, Olga and Boss?
No but why would they suddenly start designing characters differently after all these other successful games.
when the developer make a male character anything but generic bald guy. they would never make other important character look like boring other military shooter game.
the whole design in mgs never try to mimic real world practical equipment and uniform anyway.
that's not her body at all.
Just google 'Stephanie Joosten' and you'll see she's tiny. compare these with the final renders.
From what I can tell, they resized her head, thickened up her arms and waist, and filled out her back. I can't see many pics of Stephanie's lower half, but I'm sure that is touched up as well.
Either way, they left her face almost untouched, and it looks really bad on the idealized body below. That's my main gripe with this model.
What you said here,
People saw the trailer first, they raised an eyebrow at the bikini desert sniper but didn't think more of that, it's the ridiculous kojima type characters again.
It was when he started talking about reasons for doing this and that when it came to design-choices which acted as an eyeopener for a lot of people, what kind of attitude was Kojima bringing to the table of game-development?
I'm solution oriented. We've identified the problem. Kojima isn't going to change his mind, so what can we do?
Make better character designs ourselves.
That's what PC is here for, right? Let's learn from the mistakes of the industry and APPLY what we've learned, because as long as threads like "3d girls thread" can get away with pointless titillating character designs and receive nothing but praise, we have learned nothing.
That's one possibility, also her collant are warned out near her knee, but in this case was better to wear knee pads, some people called it "lazy" but I find her design interesting.
That's not what I said, stoning people is not one of the "low level" needs of the human brain, it's a collateral effect of our (in this case their) society, that made you believe that's it's right to stone people to death, just because that's god's will.
Also, just because she's a female character, doesn't mean that all the character in the game are supersexy bikini models, and doesn't mean that's how they see all women, usually in Metal Gear there are various characters (some exaggerated too), look at Sniper Wolf with her jacket opened, showing her "stuff" and then the other female characters, are they portrayed the same way? Or they represent various type of women?
In this case she looks like the "slutty" character, what's the problem? They can't made all the characters like puritan + Human Rights activists.
I chose that because I like it too, she's more balanced and natural, but well, they have made this character to please the majority of people, as they are targeting to sell a lot of copies, I don't know how many people would have chose to make a niche game just to please few people, not counting the money they had invested in the project, unfortunately (depends of how you look at it) this is not our character nor our game, and speaking for myself, the first thing I'd have changed is the breast size, they look like futsal balls, but that's probably just me, other people may prefer even larger one.
I must say that even the actress dislike how they portrayed her in the game, but she believes that Kojima had an explanation to that, otherwise, for me, it's just a cheap trick to sell more copies, but I believe in Kojima.
You forgot "chuuu~" at the end of your sentence.
When I look at this character, out of context, I see a regular metal gear character. None of her "features", as in her physique, are "sexualized" for the sake of sexy; it all looks possible for someone out there to have a similar body. Her attire may be questionable in real life, but its a game.
May question is, why all the fuss about this particular character out of context?
When a game like, for example, Borderlands 2 is riddled with sexual innuendos, has one character(Mad Moxxi) that is mainly there for all the sex jokes and look sexy, and Borderlands 2 was well received from many, I heard nary a complaint of "overly sexualized" characters, etc...As well as not hearing any complaints of Mad Moxxi, and I've seen many female cosplayers/gamers that just love Mad Moxxi.
What is so different about this case? Excluding Kojima's comment, just the game itself.
Also with the Borderlands 2 example, don't tell me "It works for that game's setting" because I've seen comments in here that state context doesn't justify it.
I am honestly curious about the strong adamant feelings towards this character.
But valid question because we really don't know anything about Quiet.
I agree completely. Yet still people complained about Bayonetta and Lollipop Chainsaw to high heaven.
The fuss is irregular. Due to this controverial topic these days, there were plenty of people who 'noticed' Quiets outfit but were like "oh whatever". Once Kojima talked about making her erotic, this blew the hell up.
It's not black and white, it's not black and white, it's not black and white. Please don't lets this turn out like the tropes thread.
Does the entire community need to represent that level of thinking? Learning about depth and technical thinking can improve designs, but I hope *not* making pointless titillating characters designs isn't going to be a marker for progress. Artists can do what they want.
Defnitely the story/character came first. MGS characters are more about symbolism/metaphor/relationship than about looks - that's their purpose.
The best attitude IMO. The designers I respect the most are the ones making the games they want to make. His ability to craft a serious series this beloved and full of quirks and fancies is great in this day and age.
Not under duress.
He said he specifically asked his artists to make her more sexier for that reason. Unless some evidence comes out to the contrary, it's completely his decision to make those changes and if they were directly against his intentions for the character he wouldn't have done it.
https://twitter.com/HIDEO_KOJIMA_EN
(I suppose these are being translated by an assistant, as the picture links send to japanese versions of the tweets, making me think that many of these were originally written in japanese)
The one that started it all :
(note that the sentence in not ending here. The period is actually more to be read as a semicolon, to be followed by an explanation of his recent way of creating characters, detailled in his following post)
Followed by :
He then proceeds to explain details of the reveal for cosplayers who asked for the info.
Then :
From there, my guess would be that there might have been a misunderstanding around the word "initial". It would be great to hear the opinion of japanese speakers. I think that he actually means "initial" as in, "at first sight". Just like how everyone has been seeing the character (the appearance of a rather bland sex doll)
It seems to me that indeed, his intent has always been to create the character this way in order to smartly troll the audience and make people believe that she might be just a dumb sex doll, just like many female characters have been designed for years. Like these :
http://www.hlj.com/top/Fig
But in the game, there might very well be much more to it than what it seems.
His last post on the subject :
Can't frigging wait to play the game !!
So basically, what I am seeing is none of the arguments in this thread has any merit, yet, because the game isn't even out to judge it by.
Anyways, I'm looking forward to MGS V, I always have fun and some good laughs while playing it.
This clarifies it a bit more, and that its more a discussion of Kojima's argument for justifying a poorly clothed soldier. Instead of saying, "Guys wait and play the game to understand my choices" it was "I want people to cosplay her and sell figures." I do agree they could do a better design, perhaps along the lines of the recently debuted female in BF4. I'm curious to see if Quiet will be in a bikini through the whole game or just in a certain segment.
Either way, interesting points by all, glad I could be part of the discussion even if I was off a bit.
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The lighting looks pretty nice at times, though the buildings look really basic are medium far draw distances for some reason. The specular reflections look good though. But the shadowed areas seem a bit flat and boring.
Metal Gear Solid V Res Confirmed: Sub-720p (PS3/360), 720p (XB1), 1080p (PS4)
More comparisons here.
http://www.konami.jp/mgs5/gz/en/products/compare.html
the only real difference you can see is the increased output resolution on the ps4, the xbox one has slightly sharper textures but the lack of resolution makes it almost unnoticeable in a still shot, so in moving gameplay it'll probably be less noticeable.