How The F*#% Do I Model This? - Reply for help with specific shapes - (Post attempt before asking)

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  • Prime8
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    Prime8 polycounter lvl 4
    Rekov said:
    ... I like my meshes to be mathematically precise, and it helps to have an actual model when baking panels that extend across multiple UV islands.
    ...

    @Rekov not sure what "mathematically precise" means in this case. I personally care more about the result, usability and speed.

    Your can try this as well. A very quick solution using bevel.



  • King Mango
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    King Mango polycounter lvl 10
    I found a great topology guide here
    https://topologyguides.com/
    Couldn't find it in the Wiki and wasn't sure where to/if appropriate to add it
  • JohnAugust
    Hello people! Please, I really need help. How do I can solve these problems ? :|
  • rage288
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    rage288 polycounter lvl 3
    Maybe stop using cinema?  :D
  • JohnAugust
    rage288 said:
    Maybe stop using cinema?  :D
       I thought about it.)
  • Lómerel
    Is that blender? If it is I might go back to it. Learning maya because is "industry standard" but the modelling workflow is sloooow.
    Amiminoru said:
     :) 



  • Rolfisway
    Lómerel said:
    Is that blender? If it is I might go back to it. Learning maya because is "industry standard" but the modelling workflow is sloooow.
    Amiminoru said:
     :) 



    Yes, it is. But he used addon "HardOps".
  • shunen
    Hello everyone. I'm trying to do some hard-surface modeling, and I'm trying to understand how should I approach these. I already tried modeling them, but had some problems.



    This is the box I tried to model. The thing is, its a pain in the ass. I dont know how to approach. I'll explain, first, here's the breakdown of what I understood in Photoshop.



    Now, here's the thing. Let's ignore the texture parts. It's easy to do the blockout model. The hardest thing is the panels. As you can see, it stops on a curved surface. I basically cut the model, then bevel it with 3 segments. Then, extrude in. Normally, this should work if the edge loop was "looped" , but it stops abrubtly in the right top corner as you can see in the image. This creates a very annoying triangle that I cant get rid of. One more thing, as you can see, theres also 2 holes on the front piece and one is actually cutting in the panels. If I try to model the circle first then panel, a lot of artifacts occur and I cant find a way to fix the topology.

    Also, when you are extruding in, it extrudes in along normals. Some of them extrude in very weirdly. This is actually not the model I tried to do and it has n-gons, but I tried to do this a lot but it didnt work so I did not save any of them, I made this really quick for demonstration. Normally, I fix them up in all quads, though I dont care about how it loops when I do so. Should I? Okay, here's the triangle I'm talking about also the extrusion.

    This is the triangle:



    This is the extrusion. As you can see, its petruding out for demonstrating purposes, but when you petrude it in, in doesnt go inside normally, it goes the center, like you are scaling it down (??? I actually dont know how to explain this.)



    So, here's my 3 questions after this long ass post (sorry :./)

    1-Should I not care about SUBD modelling at all and just go full on boolean modeling and beveling on pieces like these? Is this piece possible with SUBD? Because I feel like if I try out boolean modeling, this could work, but is this the right approach?
    2-How can I fix this triangle issue on a surface like that?
    (One of the best things I could think of fixing it was continuing the bevel on it but not extruding in the curved part. It again created weird artifacts.)
    3-How can I fix this extrusion problem?
  • sacboi
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    sacboi polycounter

    Change your pivot point to median, which will average out alignment for the selected vertex points when inset but IMO I don't think that region of the drawing would have a panel, seems to me more like a design for a decal?!

    I'd also suggest persistence if this is a learning exercise, because best practice fundamentals are often learnt through trial and error via cage modelling to begin with, prior too eventually moving onto other techniques.   

  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx greentooth
    shunen said:
    Hello everyone. I'm trying to do some hard-surface modeling, and I'm trying to understand how should I approach these. I already tried modeling them, but had some problems.



    This is the box I tried to model. The thing is, its a pain in the ass. I dont know how to approach. I'll explain, first, here's the breakdown of what I understood in Photoshop.



    Now, here's the thing. Let's ignore the texture parts. It's easy to do the blockout model. The hardest thing is the panels. As you can see, it stops on a curved surface. I basically cut the model, then bevel it with 3 segments. Then, extrude in. Normally, this should work if the edge loop was "looped" , but it stops abrubtly in the right top corner as you can see in the image. This creates a very annoying triangle that I cant get rid of. One more thing, as you can see, theres also 2 holes on the front piece and one is actually cutting in the panels. If I try to model the circle first then panel, a lot of artifacts occur and I cant find a way to fix the topology.

    Also, when you are extruding in, it extrudes in along normals. Some of them extrude in very weirdly. This is actually not the model I tried to do and it has n-gons, but I tried to do this a lot but it didnt work so I did not save any of them, I made this really quick for demonstration. Normally, I fix them up in all quads, though I dont care about how it loops when I do so. Should I? Okay, here's the triangle I'm talking about also the extrusion.

    This is the triangle:



    This is the extrusion. As you can see, its petruding out for demonstrating purposes, but when you petrude it in, in doesnt go inside normally, it goes the center, like you are scaling it down (??? I actually dont know how to explain this.)



    So, here's my 3 questions after this long ass post (sorry :./)

    1-Should I not care about SUBD modelling at all and just go full on boolean modeling and beveling on pieces like these? Is this piece possible with SUBD? Because I feel like if I try out boolean modeling, this could work, but is this the right approach?
    2-How can I fix this triangle issue on a surface like that?
    (One of the best things I could think of fixing it was continuing the bevel on it but not extruding in the curved part. It again created weird artifacts.)
    3-How can I fix this extrusion problem?
    floaters. 
  • shunen
    sacboi said:

    Change your pivot point to median, which will average out alignment for the selected vertex points when inset but IMO I don't think that region of the drawing would have a panel, seems to me more like a design for a decal?!

    I'd also suggest persistence if this is a learning exercise, because best practice fundamentals are often learnt through trial and error via cage modelling to begin with, prior too eventually moving onto other techniques.   

    Yeah, I thought so as well, but I really wanted to do what I initially thought because "what if I need to model something like that in the future?" so I am trying to model it with panels atm.

    wirrexx said:
    floaters. 
    I honestly didnt know something like this existed. Saw it on tutorials, but didnt think it would work that way. Thanks for the awesome tip, this works quite well in the "circle divots on panels" case. I have one last question, I have some weird normal map bake problems after this, is this because I have geometry on seams? I have a cage, I softened everything selected only the hard edges, marked them as sharp, and I cut my hard edges in UVs. But still things like these happen pretty often in my models. Am I missing something?

    Thanks a lot by the way!





    EDIT: After some research, I found another technique that could be used for this kind of geometry:
    https://polycount.com/discussion/168610/proboolean-dynamesh-hardsurface-workflow-tutorial

    This makes a lot of sense, and I'm currently trying to do it this way, but theres a lot of clean-up to do in Zbrush. If there are better ways to do it, please tell me so. I'm still doing it, but cleaning up in Zbrush is very annoying to do :/

    UPDATE: I finally did it! Thanks you two. I will not retopo and texture it, but I finally modeled it with subd and booleans combined. Here's a screenshot:


  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx greentooth
    shunen said:
    sacboi said:

    Change your pivot point to median, which will average out alignment for the selected vertex points when inset but IMO I don't think that region of the drawing would have a panel, seems to me more like a design for a decal?!

    I'd also suggest persistence if this is a learning exercise, because best practice fundamentals are often learnt through trial and error via cage modelling to begin with, prior too eventually moving onto other techniques.   

    Yeah, I thought so as well, but I really wanted to do what I initially thought because "what if I need to model something like that in the future?" so I am trying to model it with panels atm.

    wirrexx said:
    floaters. 
    I honestly didnt know something like this existed. Saw it on tutorials, but didnt think it would work that way. Thanks for the awesome tip, this works quite well in the "circle divots on panels" case. I have one last question, I have some weird normal map bake problems after this, is this because I have geometry on seams? I have a cage, I softened everything selected only the hard edges, marked them as sharp, and I cut my hard edges in UVs. But still things like these happen pretty often in my models. Am I missing something?

    Thanks a lot by the way!





    EDIT: After some research, I found another technique that could be used for this kind of geometry:
    https://polycount.com/discussion/168610/proboolean-dynamesh-hardsurface-workflow-tutorial

    This makes a lot of sense, and I'm currently trying to do it this way, but theres a lot of clean-up to do in Zbrush. If there are better ways to do it, please tell me so. I'm still doing it, but cleaning up in Zbrush is very annoying to do :/

    UPDATE: I finally did it! Thanks you two. I will not retopo and texture it, but I finally modeled it with subd and booleans combined. Here's a screenshot:


    good job, my only concern is that the white part seems to be painted and not a panel :D
  • Mudoxy
    Hi guys!
    I'm new to poly-modeling, and most of my theory I got from this exact thread, so I want to say thank you for the awesome advise and the time all of you spend teaching noobs like me and helping each other. <3

    So here's my problem:
    I am modeling an old soviet airplane with a cylindrical fuselage (body), and at one point it has an indent, shaped like a smaller cylinder has been pushed in.

    Kind of like this



    Seems simple, but as soon as I start adding loops to harden the edges, I get all sorts of patterns, but none of them end up looking smooth.



    The most obvious way out is to add two horizontal lines to finish the loops like this


    But then the roundness of the cylinder is destroyed


    I've tried indenting other shapes into a cylinder, but i just can't figure out a pattern that would work, leaving me with pretty 4-sided polygons.

    Please, help!
  • Zi0
  • Udjani
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    Udjani polycounter lvl 2
    @Mudoxy This topology works almost all of the time for cylindrical shapes, is preferable to maintain the edge loop around the hole somewhat the same to get less pinching. You can see that the topology of the cylinder below has a cut in between 2 edges and the the one at the top left the cut is closer to one edge, i did that to show one of the reasons why maintaining the loop aroud the hole with the same thickness is good. 

    No trying to be rude here, but there are plenty of examples like that and explanations in this thread. 
  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx greentooth
    Mudoxy said:
    Hi guys!
    I'm new to poly-modeling, and most of my theory I got from this exact thread, so I want to say thank you for the awesome advise and the time all of you spend teaching noobs like me and helping each other. <3

    So here's my problem:
    I am modeling an old soviet airplane with a cylindrical fuselage (body), and at one point it has an indent, shaped like a smaller cylinder has been pushed in.

    Kind of like this



    Seems simple, but as soon as I start adding loops to harden the edges, I get all sorts of patterns, but none of them end up looking smooth.



    The most obvious way out is to add two horizontal lines to finish the loops like this


    But then the roundness of the cylinder is destroyed


    I've tried indenting other shapes into a cylinder, but i just can't figure out a pattern that would work, leaving me with pretty 4-sided polygons.

    Please, help!

  • Mudoxy
    Thanks for the reply!
    So, I guess you are saying that i should increase the subdivisions on the "cylinder"?

    Right now it looks something like this


    So with the horizontal edges so far apart I wouldn't get the same result you have.

    If I understood this correctly, by how much do you think I should I increase the subdiv (now its 18 edges)? Cause adding edges manually and adjusting them to the plane's profiles would take me ages.

    I thought about splitting the mesh into 2 parts, with the front circular bit separate, so i could subdiv (or add edges) to them separately. But on the reference images the fuselage looks very smooth and seamless, so I thought I better leave it as a whole.
  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx greentooth
    Mudoxy said:
    Thanks for the reply!
    So, I guess you are saying that i should increase the subdivisions on the "cylinder"?

    Right now it looks something like this


    So with the horizontal edges so far apart I wouldn't get the same result you have.

    If I understood this correctly, by how much do you think I should I increase the subdiv (now its 18 edges)? Cause adding edges manually and adjusting them to the plane's profiles would take me ages.

    I thought about splitting the mesh into 2 parts, with the front circular bit separate, so i could subdiv (or add edges) to them separately. But on the reference images the fuselage looks very smooth and seamless, so I thought I better leave it as a whole.
    The main body is ok (primary shape), you could use less Segments, but secondary and threshery details usually tend to use more Edges. So for example, you start shaping out the main body without panels and indents. And notice (holy shit i need a panel here that is smaller then the body but larger then the screw hole next to it). What to do? 

    You could use the floating technique i Invented.. (joke aside, but check out Floaters). Or you could, subdivide the main body you already have to get more segments to Work with. 
  • Mudoxy
    I'm not sure about the whole floating holes idea... can't quite imagine how I'd go around it, so I'll just cut more segments.
    The floating technique could work really well for other bits, so ill give it a try too.
    Cool, thanks!
  • Zablorg
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    Zablorg polycounter lvl 3
    I sometimes see attempts made in this thread where an appropriate topology for subdivision isn't found, and may even be impossible- the Princess Peach crown a while back comes to mind. Is the last resort in these cases to use your software's creasing tool to create the sharper details where you need them to be?

    I get the impression supporting topology is vastly preferred because creasing tools aren't reliably transferable across programs- but you've gotta use what works and ditch what doesn't right?
  • iacdxb
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    iacdxb polycounter lvl 2
    Hi,
    Anyone can help me... how can I get sharp edges....? Thanks.



  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx greentooth
    iacdxb said:
    Hi,
    Anyone can help me... how can I get sharp edges....? Thanks.




     would you mind sending the obj or fbx? Could help better when  i see it. otherwise here's a little ex. 


  • BI0H0G
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    BI0H0G polycounter lvl 7
    hi i been having problems making this shape smooth 



    here is the reference on what im modeling


  • Zi0
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    Zi0 greentooth
    @BI0H0G Next time show us your wireframe as well :smile:

    You should try something more like this:



  • PixelMagic
    I got a question if you can help me figure it out. I have an area that needs holding edges to keep a sharp panel line (marked in red). On the other side, I have a large cylinder that needs to smooth properly, so it can only have one edge running out (green). My solution for edge loop termination (blue) produces pinching and folding of the geometry after subdivision, as you can see. Any suggestions?






  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx greentooth
    I got a question if you can help me figure it out. I have an area that needs holding edges to keep a sharp panel line (marked in red). On the other side, I have a large cylinder that needs to smooth properly, so it can only have one edge running out (green). My solution for edge loop termination (blue) produces pinching and folding of the geometry after subdivision, as you can see. Any suggestions?






    cant really make out what it is you are making and therefore hard too help you with it. The pinching is very small it seems like.. When baked down it may even be less visible?

  • VinnyAle
    hi guy´s
    im trying make some diagonal cuts in a cilinder  but don't success.

    I researched somes soluctions here but i did not find it :neutral:

    Im tryed 3x


    My ref.



    First try:




    Second fry:



    Third try:





  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx greentooth
    VinnyAle said:
    hi guy´s
    im trying make some diagonal cuts in a cilinder  but don't success.

    I researched somes soluctions here but i did not find it :neutral:

    Im tryed 3x


    My ref.



    First try:




    Second fry:



    Third try:





    modell it straight and use a twist modifier? 

  • rage288
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    rage288 polycounter lvl 3
    Exactly model them straight and then twist my dude

  • CGStephanN
    Hi! I'm a bit stuck on how I should go about modeling the sleeves for this tunic. What should I be looking out for in terms of topology? Does it need any extra bones aside from the ones assigned to the main body(Clavicle, shoulder, elbow, wrist, etc)?

    Something I haven't considered is using corrective shapes but I've never used those before. (Are corrective shapes just blend shapes with a different name and purpose? Because if that's the case then I HAVE used blendshapes before :D ). Thank you in advance for all the help!


  • King Mango
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    King Mango polycounter lvl 10
    I got a question if you can help me figure it out. I have an area that needs holding edges to keep a sharp panel line (marked in red). On the other side, I have a large cylinder that needs to smooth properly, so it can only have one edge running out (green). My solution for edge loop termination (blue) produces pinching and folding of the geometry after subdivision, as you can see. Any suggestions?






    Add your loops then starting from the cylinder edge weld/collaps the loops you added to the original cylinder edge until you get a triangle just before the edges you want to keep. then delete the small edge inside the triangle (that is a small part of the original cylinder radial edge)
  • iacdxb
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    iacdxb polycounter lvl 2
    wirrexx said:
    iacdxb said:
    Hi,
    Anyone can help me... how can I get sharp edges....? Thanks.




     would you mind sending the obj or fbx? Could help better when  i see it. otherwise here's a little ex. 


    wirrexx said:
    iacdxb said:
    Hi,
    Anyone can help me... how can I get sharp edges....? Thanks.




     would you mind sending the obj or fbx? Could help better when  i see it. otherwise here's a little ex. 



  • iacdxb
  • iacdxb
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    iacdxb polycounter lvl 2
    Hi,
    Any know knows any good tutorial of shoes 3d modeling...?

    Thanks.


  • Zablorg
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    Zablorg polycounter lvl 3
    iacdxb said:
    Hi,
    Any know knows any good tutorial of shoes 3d modeling...?

    Thanks.


    First image looks pretty good to me, and it looks like you're using that as reference. Are you having any specific problems?
  • Elarionus
    I'm trying to learn Modo, and my go-to when learning a new software is to try and model a gun, but this is making me want to put my head through a wall and give up. I used booleans to punch out all of the rectangular sections as well as the big cylinders. I've been going back through and triangulating it, but when I try to use Add Loop to give myself loops to connect to, it just destroys everything. I tried the auto triangulate method, and it gave me this insane topology. I'm not really sure what to do here.


  • sacboi
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    sacboi polycounter
    Best non destructive workflow, is to add a continuous edge (Add Loop) when an object/shape is made up of quads not tri's or ngon's also unsure why you're triangulating in the first place, if I assume this is an initial blockout?! 
  • annee
    Hi, everyone! I have a problem with these holes (stars). I need to make them on a spherical shape, and I don't know how to do it correctly. After my attempts there are always some distortions. Guys, how would you model it?

    Thank you!
  • EdToShred
    I'm a chronic topology murderer. I'm workin' on it... my question today is... I've got this piece where I cut some straight insets in that go against the direction of the cylinder lines. I redirected them for the deeper cut section. That seemed to work. What I'm wondering, what would be a more elegant way of joining the lines where the are intersecting at the edges of the insets? My current topology looks like finger painting in kindergarten.

  • EdToShred
    annee said:
    Hi, everyone! I have a problem with these holes (stars). I need to make them on a spherical shape, and I don't know how to do it correctly. After my attempts there are always some distortions. Guys, how would you model it?

    Thank you!
    My guess is you need to start with more segments on the cylinder. The distance from the points of the star to the edges is too far. That is what is causing the warping. The topology looks like it could work if you had more geometry.  If you look back through this thread there are a ton of examples of this kind of thing.
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    I'm Per and I've been here since long before it became here. I have no idea what I'm doing, but there's a Google Hangouts call. If anyone wants some words with grampa, tips, techniques, anything, just don't make fun of me, I'm camera awkward/shy/whatever.
    Well if you're one the the many I pissed off over the years I suppose you can make a little fun of me.

    I don't have 3D tools up and running here, no screenshare. It's just me here now.

     https://hangouts.google.com/call/V3EjYSSftff2jIN4sV5HAEEI


  • Zi0
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    Zi0 greentooth
    EdToShred said:
    I'm a chronic topology murderer. I'm workin' on it... my question today is... I've got this piece where I cut some straight insets in that go against the direction of the cylinder lines. I redirected them for the deeper cut section. That seemed to work. What I'm wondering, what would be a more elegant way of joining the lines where the are intersecting at the edges of the insets? My current topology looks like finger painting in kindergarten.

    If it smooths alright this way then there is nothing to worry about
  • sacboi
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    sacboi polycounter

    Hi Per, haven't seen you around here for a while plus awesome might take up your offer, always willing too learn and I promise to not take the piss :) so duly bookmarked...oh and Happy New Year, by the way :)

    @annee your mesh is too low poly to support the cut, I'd advise adding more edge loops and segments.      

    @EdToShred yeah ZIO is correct.

    Also a tip learnt from an experienced artist kind enough to point me in the right direction, when I had an 'all quad' topology fixation:

    ""Any topology or wireframe that achieves your goals, is a good topology. Always consider what you are trying to achieve and time and resources you have."  - Ali Ismail

    So really the sole intent of a hi res mesh is to bake down smoothing to a proxy (...low-poly) in other words if the topo looks like a horror show but at the same time no shading errors are thrown, then all good. There are a number of recent related discussions on this board that'll shed further light, anyways here's a sample:

    https://polycount.com/discussion/208575/topology-standards-for-hard-surface-modeling#latest

    Cheers.     

  • iacdxb
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    iacdxb polycounter lvl 2
    Hi,

    Bottle cap part it is. Any idea how can I fix this without making cut up... and getting this small humps also...!

    Thanks.

  • HixaLupa
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    HixaLupa triangle
    Hey, is it alright to ask about something gone weirdly wrong in Zbrush? Not topology related. if it's not by all means delete this post
    I imported some shapes from Maya and noticed a small gap between them when there is none in the maya scene. This turned out to be a real problem for texturing as it means there are blank spaces where the meshes have almost shrunk? Very odd, If anyone know why this might've happened or a fast solution that doesn't involve doing it all again (Kill me) please lmk! So far I only have scaling the tools in zbrush :confounded:

  • ZeroBiit
  • sacboi
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    sacboi polycounter

    Guys seriously!

    There are a range of solutions thoughtfully posted that are relevant to your particular issues on the previous half a dozen pages alone, so please I implore you too **STUDY** them thoroughly and the answer will I guarantee reveal itself in due course...

    I don't always get it right first go, when sometimes not paying attention, that there are relative differences between planar and curved surface topology :blush:

  • matt881
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    matt881 polycounter lvl 5
    I've always had problems with these hard surface organic-look shapes. The problem is how to start with it, from bigger shapes, more subdivided or create it extruding vertex by vertex? It's hard to make moar geo cylinder and match his edges with all cuts visible on referenced object. Also how to make those holes (marked with red arrows) without techniques like floating mesh? 

  • mveb1
    Hi, 
    Help me pls!

    Thanks.
  • Thanez
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    Thanez polycounter lvl 4
    @HixaLupa Those "gaps" shading looks awfully similar to your lowpoly's shading. I would guess that during your bake process, your cage (or lack thereof) is starting to capture the sculpted bits not at the edge of the lowpoly, but further into it. Check your cage and come back to me.
    @mveb1 and @iacdxb M8s these are classic "cutting a hole in cylinder" problems. There are no less than 10 solutions on the previous page of this thread :)
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