Severance: Blade of Darkness, had great everything, the combat was really bolstered with good, dare I say it, intelligent AI. Sad that barely anyone has played it, and carried forward the mechanics.
@Ged: Die by the Sword... it didn't work out too well
This is not really related to the modeling aspect of The Elder Scrolls but recently I was looking into this area of research about dialogue generation and found out that with this Skyrim, they are using some dialogue generation software to better present the words used by the characters. It is really amazing how they could come up with such works. Though they still are writing their own dialogue because you can not just wrest too much control over the system.
Really? That's awesome, I'm always afraid to get inside random dungeons because I fear I might break future quests, but I'm glad the game has counter-measures against that, generally it's easy to break the scripting of these games.
Sorry can't really concentrate now right BUT you ought to do the theives guild quests earlier on becuae they do break in the future... I had to start a new game just to continue them. I noticed in my original game when I'd done just about everything, the theives guild were saying I was great before I'd already done stuff. Maybe their dialogue depended on my disposition and I'd already pleased them before joining which in turn broke their quests.
Either way, sorry to say, quests are broken by doing other things first.
No, they didn't remove every kind of number from Skyrim. Weapon damage, armor rating, health/stamina/magicka, enchanting, and skills are still all part of the numbers meta game. You can't purge numbers from a game entirely though.
Ok, so I have been playing on the easiest setting. Now the game is at least playable because it actually feels like I'm using weapons
The problem now though is that I cannot die
I do play Demons/Dark souls. It's the best RPG i've played so far. Even if they have many flaws (especially stats and levels )
but do you actually have any better alternative to stats, levels, xp and so on?
Yes. Remove them completely!
Stats and levels just gives an illusion of you getting better but what it actually does is changing the rules of the game world. Every battle should be a game of chess instead of a game of dice. Usually where one part have much better dices.
HP completely unecessary. "HP" should be determine by armor types. Flesh, leather, ringmail and plates. (just took 4 for simplify my explaination.) A ringmail protects agains slashes but would get completely shattered (and the bones inside) by a warhammer blow.
The dilemma between armor types are protection vs agility and stamina drain. So if you wear knight armor, you are fully protected but you can barely move. An enemy cannot hurt you with a sword but can easily take you out with a small dagger by sneaking up from behind and stab you in the armpit. Alternativly just make a shield bash so the knight falls helplessly on his back like a turtle.
This would work as "hp" since you can take 1-50+ hits depending on what armor and weapons that are involved. Also if you get a minor wound like stabbed in the arm, the arm would get crippled and useless. To heal it, you would have to apply bandage, drink a health potion and rest for 12h. (Instead of eating 800 apples )
Severed limb or penetration = death.
Weapons should differ depending on what the weapon it actually is. The way you weild it. Also take concideration of what armor the current enemy has. For example: One warrior has a two-hand greatsword and a thief has a rapier. The thief would have an advantage because the rapier is so much faster than the greatsword. But the roles would change if the warrior had a spear (longer range). The roles would change again if the thief had a shield which he can block the spear thrusts and can come close enough to attack. etc etc.
Since skyrim is a fps/tps, you have the ability to aim accurately at diffirent collision types.
This would add _loads_ of depth into every encounter since you have to concider what armor and weapons you and the enemy has.
It should be YOU vs the AI! Not your STATS vs the ai's STATS. Now add magic spells to that and you will have the best combat system ever made
The point is that YOU should gain experience as a player! Not your character.
If you play any non-rpg games for a long time, they become easy. Why? Not because you have much more health and do more damage, because you have learnt the AI's attcks, timing, abilities, patterns, speed and so on. You have REAL experience!! You are better than the AI, you outsmarted it! You'll get satisfaction after eatch encounter! No matter if it's a small goblin or if it's a huge dragon.
A classic example of xp/levels is you fight against a goblin with a sword and leather armor in the beginnig of the game at lvl1. He hurts you with 30dmg and you hurt the goblin with 50dmg. After playing some hours you're now lvl100. Now go back and fight the goblin again naked, armed with your bare fists. You do 600dmg and the goblin does 1dmg... That's just stupid and doesnt make any sense at all!
The worst thing you can do with a game is when you play at higher difficulty, it raise the enemies hp. That's just lazy and bad in every way.
It doesn't really make the game more difficult. It's just frustrating!
It's so heartbreaking that Skyrim (and the other elder scrolls and fallout) has such big and exciting world to explore, there's so much to do! Unfortunately the whole experience gets ruined because of the half-assed, stat based combat system...
TL;DR
Stats and experience points are outdated and boring
Carl, I think you could just word your whole argument in one sentence.
"I wish there was a an action game with a world as big and deep as an Elder Scrolls game"
I think the whole point of RPGs is that you are creating a character and your own skills should not limit you (or let you exploit the game). I mean this is the defining characteristic of an RPG. It's kinda like saying that Starcraft is stupid because you don't have enough control of each unit to effect the outcome of every encounter.
If you try to make a game that is an RPG without any kind of leveling/stats or whatever system you want to use there is no way to get the satisfying feeling of going from a nobody to the greatest warrior in the world in one game. Basicly you could only do this once if you are extremely fast at learning a game. Once you have mastered an action game you can't go back and redo that journey in the same game and probably not in an new game again.
A classic example of xp/levels is you fight against a goblin with a sword and leather armor in the beginnig of the game at lvl1. He hurts you with 30dmg and you hurt the goblin with 50dmg. After playing some hours you're now lvl100. Now go back and fight the goblin again naked, armed with your bare fists. You do 600dmg and the goblin does 1dmg... That's just stupid and doesnt make any sense at all!
The argument here is that you lvl 100 dude is more experienced in combat and therefore better at defending himself against the attacks of the goblin. Of course it would be totally awesome if this could be visualised in a more realistic way using different animations etc. Of course your example is extremely exaggerated.
Not saying Action games do it wrong because they require your own skills to improve. It is two different experience you want to create when you make an action game and an RPG.
Well the great thing about your complaints Carl, no matter how trite and inane and illogical they appear. You can make a mod for it, at least to do most of what your saying.
It sounds like your more talking about this, a completely different game. It was great I dont know why anyone hasnt redone something like it(I think its because people dont like failure).
This brings up the point of the weapons would not be able to be balanced at all. Halberds and Spears would completely rule over the other weapons(as they did in history). There would be no reason to use other weapons.
I'll start out by saying i dont mind the RPG genre at all.
RPG's and stats as a "Thing"... I guess a game like WoW or FF7 are clearer examples, whereby grinding is required in order for you to overcome problems. However its only really an issue in WoW when you play a meatshield kinda character, that has to trade blows... and likewise its a "problem" in FF or ANY turnbased game. Then again, turnbased games like FF tactics/disgaea have a big focus on strategy as the means to vanquish foes... so thats a shift of interest.
One of the things in WoW that I really liked when playing Mage and hunter was how you were then able to do elite quests by kiting, hell, there were cases when i could kill rogues significantly higher level than me because i could use all my abilities, which inturn means by abilities have MEANING and value!
I've been having this discussion recently in regards to the combat in Skyrim and why it's been a turn off for me. It basically boils down to choice of ability/approach and if its needed? Look at a game like deadspace, the most effective weapon in that game is the first one, by the mid point of that game I stopped getting the new weapons and just upgraded my main one (yes, im a boring cunt) but I consider this a bit bad. Yet on the flipside to this, if you look at PvP situation in WoW... Mage vs Rogue, you are given these abilities and they are nearlly all very important and they all play off each other very well.
Im skimming over these mechanics here... but again, in darksouls because of how the entire system is crafted and the way the damage is implemented, your life hangs in the balance. This places a massive importance on utilizing the mechanics you have available, you have to be meticulous and observant. I think its a very INTENTIONAL game, its not trying to be anything else.
Now back to Skyrim... which im a bit too ignorant about having not played it yet. I find the way the AI runs at you to be frustrating to view (ive watched about 5 hours of lets plays) I dont enjoy the way I can watch it be played on normal with a total disregard for blocking/dodging in the early stages of the game. Do headshots matter as an archer? Why cant they matter? Emphasis the arrows trajectory so that it becomes a defined skill not just a free pass.
Now, for the record i fucking LOVE torchlight/diablo but again, its a matter of whats important within those games. These arent games where youre pitted against low numbers of enemies in linear/designed environments (a chance to be deliberate and handcraft the experience). These are Random dungeons of you vs many, its about giving you a feeling of power with strong abilities and grand armour. And yet, there are still times when you need to play well, and utilize the choices it gives you...
Oh and Parkar, as for your Starcraft comparison.
SC2, Banelings "counter" marines... Yet you DO have COMPLETE control of EVERY unit;
So if you wear knight armor, you are fully protected but you can barely move. An enemy cannot hurt you with a sword but can easily take you out with a small dagger by sneaking up from behind and stab you in the armpit. Alternativly just make a shield bash so the knight falls helplessly on his back like a turtle.
You're aware that you can move and get up perfectly fine with full platemail, right?
This brings up the point of the weapons would not be able to be balanced at all. Halberds and Spears would completely rule over the other weapons (as they did in history). There would be no reason to use other weapons.
Nopenopenope. Halbreds ruled over history in a specific period, and in gigantic line battles with huge formations of troops -- spears permeate history because they're cheap and effective. No way are they the ultimate weapon in small fights, though. http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm
@ the discussion briefly above: You can move fine in full plate armor, by and large -- and you're probably not going to get cut on your own or an enemy's sword if you tie up and get close. Only full, strong swings, or precise, two handed (one hand on the blade) stabs have any risk of hurting you... Which means wrestling plays a major part of combat. Show me a game with a GOOD clinch/grappling system and I'll start to think realistic armored combat is a good idea.
I know this has nothing to do with skyrim, but i'm a fighting nerd.
Most combat involving plate armor was concluded when one was knocked down. The victor would put his weight down on the loser, flip open the visor and drive his sword through their face. A suit of armor is roughly 60 lbs., give or take. It is not as immobilizing as you would think. It just slows you down, but makes you a walking tank. Armored combat was a battle of attrition.
You're aware that you can move and get up perfectly fine with full platemail, right?
You have missed the point.
The point is that everything in a game must have some sort of credibility. Everything must be believable to a certain level. Otherwise it will break the immersion, which happends every single time you go into combat!
Imagine drawing a stylized cartoon character. To make it look good, you cannot ignore perspective, proportions, bonestructure, muscles etc. The same goes for game mechanics, animation, sound, music - everything!
You might as well fight dragons with a sausage since the only thing that matters is what stats the sausage has...
The point is that everything in a game must have some sort of credibility. Everything must be believable to a certain level. Otherwise it will break the immersion, which happends every single time you go into combat!
Imagine drawing a stylized cartoon character. To make it look good, you cannot ignore perspective, proportions, bonestructure, muscles etc. The same goes for game mechanics, animation, sound, music - everything!
You might as well fight dragons with a sausage since the only thing that matters is what stats the sausage has...
I do agree with your complaints about the stat driven gameplay in most RPG's, but it's clear that nobody is willing to create the type of RPG you're looking for. Perhaps it's just easier to create a game for a stats whore than to create a strategic hand-to-hand combat RPG that requires skill, timing, and technique? I'd love to play an RPG that doesn't require you to grind your ass off to get access to the most satisfying skills and abilities. It would be much more fun to start off with all skills and perks maxed out and require you to learn how to make the most of them (like combining elements for more powerful effects in Magicka, gotta love the arcane steam lightning!).
I think Yahtzee made a very good point about stat-based RPG's:
Rarely do you reach the case where you have to grind in a western singleplayer rpg though.
Minmaxing will be possible in anything with statistical freedom to mix and match, so it'll always be there though.
In a statsless rpg you'd end up with people finding the perfect combination of equipment, minmaxing the hell out of it, and eventually infusing the power of numbers back into the game, as balance doesn't exist in the real world.
You wouldn't slay dragons with puny arrows or crushing weapons, no matter the strength you had you wouldn't be able to melee to melee something that is essentially a fire breatheing t-rex with wings, it would chomp the most powerful man in the most expensive armour.
On top of that we have the case of mastering swordsmanship in one game and being master for life, you wouldn't develop a character without numbers when you are already a master at the start.
I think stats have their place. Stats like strength/dex increasing movement speed/dodging or enabling you to wield larger weapons or heavier armor while retaining mobility is something that can play a role without removing player skill from the get go.
But again, i dont really mind numbers as a system when a game its structured from the ground up to play a part.
I dunno if i can fully explain my point but it basically boils down defining a games focus, not what developers say it is, but what the focus becomes from the mechanics that are present. Chess is a strategy game, its turn based and theres no hidden information, so its about planning and how far you can read ahead, the implications of making it real time then emphasis speed/who can move the pieces the fastest.. whatever, bit of a bad analogy.
The way a game like Skyrim is played and the tools it has in place, to me, hint at a focus that the game doesnt pander to as well as it should. The sheer existance of things like real time/dodging as a gameplay tool have massive impacts on what the "focus", is, and when numbers come into play it begs the question of what purpose do they serve if they arent even explored properly.
Hypothetical situation but its like, why let people run around at all if it doesnt allow you to avoid an attack? The enemy runs at the same speed as you and will hit you regardless > basically, dont put in gameplay things for the sake of it.
Im sure what im saying is flawed in someway, but please do pick it apart
I agree with carl somewhat, i hate stat driven games, but when it's against other players but when it's just a single player game... i love whooping some NPC ass with my +5 NPC annihilation stick!
I think stats have their place. Stats like strength/dex increasing movement speed/dodging or enabling you to wield larger weapons or heavier armor while retaining mobility is something that can play a role without removing player skill from the get go.
But again, i dont really mind numbers as a system when a game its structured from the ground up to play a part.
I dunno if i can fully explain my point but it basically boils down defining a games focus, not what developers say it is, but what the focus becomes from the mechanics that are present. Chess is a strategy game, its turn based and theres no hidden information, so its about planning and how far you can read ahead, the implications of making it real time then emphasis speed/who can move the pieces the fastest.. whatever, bit of a bad analogy.
The way a game like Skyrim is played and the tools it has in place, to me, hint at a focus that the game doesnt pander to as well as it should. The sheer existance of things like real time/dodging as a gameplay tool have massive impacts on what the "focus", is, and when numbers come into play it begs the question of what purpose do they serve if they arent even explored properly.
Hypothetical situation but its like, why let people run around at all if it doesnt allow you to avoid an attack? The enemy runs at the same speed as you and will hit you regardless > basically, dont put in gameplay things for the sake of it.
Im sure what im saying is flawed in someway, but please do pick it apart
Firstly, stat reqs aren't enablers to more powerful gear, they are a barrier that keeps the player from getting ahead of the difficulty. It's meant to keep a lvl 1 player from being as strong as a lvl 50 simple by gear alone. It's not unheard or to provide a player with all the powers they will ever have at the start and challenge them to find ways to maximize their potential.
Armor, for example, can be limited to how much speed reduction it imposes and how much stamina drain it adds. The player can get stronger from moving in that armor and reduce the mobility and stamina penalty. Those are still stats, but they don't require any numbers to access their effects. What armor can provide is protection against injury (which disables limbs) to make it harder to land the killing blow, which disregards the need for a health bar. If the attacker staggers the target and penetrates the armor (by attacking a weak point like the armpit, groin, or visor or by using a weapon heavy enough to break the armor with a powerful blow), a killing blow is achieved, but the target cannot be injured and lose use of a limb (weapon arm or mobility penalty). So now combat is a battle of timing and stamina rather than who has the best numbers. Someone has to find an opening to land a kill.
For example:
Block with Shield> bash> step in and knock down with shield bash> power attack to the torso
Parry with sword>move to the side, turn> strike the back of the knee> strike the neck
You could disarm an opponent with a shield bash if it's an overhead blow. Just bash before the downswing.
Well, the way I see it, levels are a way of organizing the characters growing ability. If you go through the mountains, nailing wolves with maces, and jumping up rocks, you'll grow stronger- better with maces, better at jumping, and bigger muscles- it isn't just a question of reflexes and experience, but also accumulated strength. Your body gets better at doing stuff the more you do it- and your body makes the necessary physical changes to accommodate how often you do the said action. Mace wolves often? Strong arms. Kick rocks? Strong legs. Shoot flames at oil-puddles? Well, then, your fire muscles are pretty big.
Leveling happens in real life, too, we just don't have the numbers on a parchment in front of us.
You do get more movement-based skills in skyrim as you perk up,
blocking, quick reflexes which gives you time to dodge power-attacks and swing from another angle, directional power-attacks, a hard to achieve but more powerful back-powerattack, charging-swings where you run at the opponent, sprinting with shield to ram people, disarming shield-slams.
And if we're talking movement in combat generally, you have to move as to not get surrounded which happens quite a lot, you have to run around to get some space between you and a tougher enemy you just knocked down on the ground, you have to make sure you're pointing towards his direction and not leaving your back open, you might want to move to a better position to FUS RO DAH his whole being down a mountain.
There's a whole lot of spells, poisons and potions surrounding spending and gaining stamina, and a whole lot of reasons to level up stamina over health or magicka, as combat in skyrim has quite a bunch to do with it, as you can't power-attack, power-slam, or sprint around in combat without it, and you're much more likely to be staggered.
TL;DR
Stats and experience points are outdated and boring
Using Skyrim as the base gameplay, can you give an example of a system that you think would work better? Your new method has to work not just for weapon combat, but for magic combat, picking pockets, speech/dialogue skill checks, and crafting. It also has to allow all of the game's experiences to be accessible by all players, whether they have a high level of actual physical dexterity with a gamepad/mouse or are simply average.
My lydia died on some random necromancer quest. She got reanimated AGAINST me, so I had to murder her as well as the Douche-y necromancer... then root through her rotten ashes to reclaim all my stolen goods
RIP and all that, but I'm glad to now have a companion who is a little more appreciative of the opportunity to haul around my loot.
I kinda gave up on companions now... Lydia died on me after 20 minutes by a trap, then at a much later point I enlisted J'Zargo from the Winterhold College, I exit the Hall of Atainment; some blood dragon spawns in the college courtyard and burns the damn cat to a crisp.
That was a bit of a bummer.
Does having a companion raise your probability of being caught while sneaking?
sometimes, but more often my companion will rush to tank dmg while I sit back crouched and undetected - giving me more times to volley off some sneak attack arrows.
Walked along a path and found quite a rucus: an ancient vampire and her steward fighting some orcs. Lydia, the Dremora bros and myself wade in and cleaned up. Resurrected the vampire and her steward and continued. He died at one point and I couldn't find the body, so just replaced him with a Dremora. Ended up fighting a miniboss for an item I needed from her, up on a castle in the mountains. The deathblow was dealt by the ancient vampire, a lightning blast. Which sent the boss' corpse flying off the cliff.
This game is fantastic, but I really do wish they hadn't simplified the stats so much. I love it still, but can't help but wish they had kept in the more in-depth character customization of previous games.
I would love to make stuff for this game, but I don't know what to make Most of the mods I want to play are going to require a hell of a lot of coding, and that's definitely not my forte!
The patch for the PS3 cleared up most of those pesky dead dragons getting stuck in Winterhold and helped with the atrocious frame rate.
But now every random dragon I see in the world never attacks. They just bug out by flying in one spot and if I run closer to them they glitch a few hundred yards away and just stay motionless in the sky
Replies
Severance: Blade of Darkness, had great everything, the combat was really bolstered with good, dare I say it, intelligent AI. Sad that barely anyone has played it, and carried forward the mechanics.
@Ged: Die by the Sword... it didn't work out too well
[ame="
Sorry can't really concentrate now right BUT you ought to do the theives guild quests earlier on becuae they do break in the future... I had to start a new game just to continue them. I noticed in my original game when I'd done just about everything, the theives guild were saying I was great before I'd already done stuff. Maybe their dialogue depended on my disposition and I'd already pleased them before joining which in turn broke their quests.
Either way, sorry to say, quests are broken by doing other things first.
Yeah, I know, I was just hyperboling it up a bit.
The problem now though is that I cannot die
I do play Demons/Dark souls. It's the best RPG i've played so far. Even if they have many flaws (especially stats and levels
Yes. Remove them completely!
Stats and levels just gives an illusion of you getting better but what it actually does is changing the rules of the game world. Every battle should be a game of chess instead of a game of dice. Usually where one part have much better dices.
HP completely unecessary. "HP" should be determine by armor types. Flesh, leather, ringmail and plates. (just took 4 for simplify my explaination.) A ringmail protects agains slashes but would get completely shattered (and the bones inside) by a warhammer blow.
The dilemma between armor types are protection vs agility and stamina drain. So if you wear knight armor, you are fully protected but you can barely move. An enemy cannot hurt you with a sword but can easily take you out with a small dagger by sneaking up from behind and stab you in the armpit. Alternativly just make a shield bash so the knight falls helplessly on his back like a turtle.
This would work as "hp" since you can take 1-50+ hits depending on what armor and weapons that are involved. Also if you get a minor wound like stabbed in the arm, the arm would get crippled and useless. To heal it, you would have to apply bandage, drink a health potion and rest for 12h. (Instead of eating 800 apples
Severed limb or penetration = death.
Weapons should differ depending on what the weapon it actually is. The way you weild it. Also take concideration of what armor the current enemy has. For example: One warrior has a two-hand greatsword and a thief has a rapier. The thief would have an advantage because the rapier is so much faster than the greatsword. But the roles would change if the warrior had a spear (longer range). The roles would change again if the thief had a shield which he can block the spear thrusts and can come close enough to attack. etc etc.
Since skyrim is a fps/tps, you have the ability to aim accurately at diffirent collision types.
This would add _loads_ of depth into every encounter since you have to concider what armor and weapons you and the enemy has.
It should be YOU vs the AI! Not your STATS vs the ai's STATS. Now add magic spells to that and you will have the best combat system ever made
The point is that YOU should gain experience as a player! Not your character.
If you play any non-rpg games for a long time, they become easy. Why? Not because you have much more health and do more damage, because you have learnt the AI's attcks, timing, abilities, patterns, speed and so on. You have REAL experience!! You are better than the AI, you outsmarted it! You'll get satisfaction after eatch encounter! No matter if it's a small goblin or if it's a huge dragon.
A classic example of xp/levels is you fight against a goblin with a sword and leather armor in the beginnig of the game at lvl1. He hurts you with 30dmg and you hurt the goblin with 50dmg. After playing some hours you're now lvl100. Now go back and fight the goblin again naked, armed with your bare fists. You do 600dmg and the goblin does 1dmg... That's just stupid and doesnt make any sense at all!
The worst thing you can do with a game is when you play at higher difficulty, it raise the enemies hp. That's just lazy and bad in every way.
It doesn't really make the game more difficult. It's just frustrating!
It's so heartbreaking that Skyrim (and the other elder scrolls and fallout) has such big and exciting world to explore, there's so much to do! Unfortunately the whole experience gets ruined because of the half-assed, stat based combat system...
TL;DR
Stats and experience points are outdated and boring
"I wish there was a an action game with a world as big and deep as an Elder Scrolls game"
I think the whole point of RPGs is that you are creating a character and your own skills should not limit you (or let you exploit the game). I mean this is the defining characteristic of an RPG. It's kinda like saying that Starcraft is stupid because you don't have enough control of each unit to effect the outcome of every encounter.
If you try to make a game that is an RPG without any kind of leveling/stats or whatever system you want to use there is no way to get the satisfying feeling of going from a nobody to the greatest warrior in the world in one game. Basicly you could only do this once if you are extremely fast at learning a game. Once you have mastered an action game you can't go back and redo that journey in the same game and probably not in an new game again.
The argument here is that you lvl 100 dude is more experienced in combat and therefore better at defending himself against the attacks of the goblin. Of course it would be totally awesome if this could be visualised in a more realistic way using different animations etc. Of course your example is extremely exaggerated.
Not saying Action games do it wrong because they require your own skills to improve. It is two different experience you want to create when you make an action game and an RPG.
It sounds like your more talking about this, a completely different game. It was great I dont know why anyone hasnt redone something like it(I think its because people dont like failure).
[ame="
This brings up the point of the weapons would not be able to be balanced at all. Halberds and Spears would completely rule over the other weapons(as they did in history). There would be no reason to use other weapons.
RPG's and stats as a "Thing"... I guess a game like WoW or FF7 are clearer examples, whereby grinding is required in order for you to overcome problems. However its only really an issue in WoW when you play a meatshield kinda character, that has to trade blows... and likewise its a "problem" in FF or ANY turnbased game. Then again, turnbased games like FF tactics/disgaea have a big focus on strategy as the means to vanquish foes... so thats a shift of interest.
One of the things in WoW that I really liked when playing Mage and hunter was how you were then able to do elite quests by kiting, hell, there were cases when i could kill rogues significantly higher level than me because i could use all my abilities, which inturn means by abilities have MEANING and value!
I've been having this discussion recently in regards to the combat in Skyrim and why it's been a turn off for me. It basically boils down to choice of ability/approach and if its needed? Look at a game like deadspace, the most effective weapon in that game is the first one, by the mid point of that game I stopped getting the new weapons and just upgraded my main one (yes, im a boring cunt) but I consider this a bit bad. Yet on the flipside to this, if you look at PvP situation in WoW... Mage vs Rogue, you are given these abilities and they are nearlly all very important and they all play off each other very well.
Im skimming over these mechanics here... but again, in darksouls because of how the entire system is crafted and the way the damage is implemented, your life hangs in the balance. This places a massive importance on utilizing the mechanics you have available, you have to be meticulous and observant. I think its a very INTENTIONAL game, its not trying to be anything else.
Now back to Skyrim... which im a bit too ignorant about having not played it yet. I find the way the AI runs at you to be frustrating to view (ive watched about 5 hours of lets plays) I dont enjoy the way I can watch it be played on normal with a total disregard for blocking/dodging in the early stages of the game. Do headshots matter as an archer? Why cant they matter? Emphasis the arrows trajectory so that it becomes a defined skill not just a free pass.
Now, for the record i fucking LOVE torchlight/diablo but again, its a matter of whats important within those games. These arent games where youre pitted against low numbers of enemies in linear/designed environments (a chance to be deliberate and handcraft the experience). These are Random dungeons of you vs many, its about giving you a feeling of power with strong abilities and grand armour. And yet, there are still times when you need to play well, and utilize the choices it gives you...
Oh and Parkar, as for your Starcraft comparison.
SC2, Banelings "counter" marines... Yet you DO have COMPLETE control of EVERY unit;
This is where the magic happens;
[ame="
(fuck yes, bushido blade... i thought about posting that, interesting game)
You're aware that you can move and get up perfectly fine with full platemail, right?
>coc qasmoke
Nopenopenope. Halbreds ruled over history in a specific period, and in gigantic line battles with huge formations of troops -- spears permeate history because they're cheap and effective. No way are they the ultimate weapon in small fights, though. http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm
@ the discussion briefly above: You can move fine in full plate armor, by and large -- and you're probably not going to get cut on your own or an enemy's sword if you tie up and get close. Only full, strong swings, or precise, two handed (one hand on the blade) stabs have any risk of hurting you... Which means wrestling plays a major part of combat. Show me a game with a GOOD clinch/grappling system and I'll start to think realistic armored combat is a good idea.
I know this has nothing to do with skyrim, but i'm a fighting nerd.
AS FOR games with low health being fun, there is a long history of games that primarily based around evasion in combat. Even ones driven by stats.
You have missed the point.
The point is that everything in a game must have some sort of credibility. Everything must be believable to a certain level. Otherwise it will break the immersion, which happends every single time you go into combat!
Imagine drawing a stylized cartoon character. To make it look good, you cannot ignore perspective, proportions, bonestructure, muscles etc. The same goes for game mechanics, animation, sound, music - everything!
You might as well fight dragons with a sausage since the only thing that matters is what stats the sausage has...
If it is an rpg, and that sausage is the sausage of dragon slaying, then yes, I should be able to pummel a dragon to death with a sausage.
I do agree with your complaints about the stat driven gameplay in most RPG's, but it's clear that nobody is willing to create the type of RPG you're looking for. Perhaps it's just easier to create a game for a stats whore than to create a strategic hand-to-hand combat RPG that requires skill, timing, and technique? I'd love to play an RPG that doesn't require you to grind your ass off to get access to the most satisfying skills and abilities. It would be much more fun to start off with all skills and perks maxed out and require you to learn how to make the most of them (like combining elements for more powerful effects in Magicka, gotta love the arcane steam lightning!).
I think Yahtzee made a very good point about stat-based RPG's:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/2634-World-of-Warcraft-Cataclysm
Skip ahead to 4:30 if you are impatient.
Minmaxing will be possible in anything with statistical freedom to mix and match, so it'll always be there though.
In a statsless rpg you'd end up with people finding the perfect combination of equipment, minmaxing the hell out of it, and eventually infusing the power of numbers back into the game, as balance doesn't exist in the real world.
You wouldn't slay dragons with puny arrows or crushing weapons, no matter the strength you had you wouldn't be able to melee to melee something that is essentially a fire breatheing t-rex with wings, it would chomp the most powerful man in the most expensive armour.
On top of that we have the case of mastering swordsmanship in one game and being master for life, you wouldn't develop a character without numbers when you are already a master at the start.
But again, i dont really mind numbers as a system when a game its structured from the ground up to play a part.
I dunno if i can fully explain my point but it basically boils down defining a games focus, not what developers say it is, but what the focus becomes from the mechanics that are present. Chess is a strategy game, its turn based and theres no hidden information, so its about planning and how far you can read ahead, the implications of making it real time then emphasis speed/who can move the pieces the fastest.. whatever, bit of a bad analogy.
The way a game like Skyrim is played and the tools it has in place, to me, hint at a focus that the game doesnt pander to as well as it should. The sheer existance of things like real time/dodging as a gameplay tool have massive impacts on what the "focus", is, and when numbers come into play it begs the question of what purpose do they serve if they arent even explored properly.
Hypothetical situation but its like, why let people run around at all if it doesnt allow you to avoid an attack? The enemy runs at the same speed as you and will hit you regardless > basically, dont put in gameplay things for the sake of it.
Im sure what im saying is flawed in someway, but please do pick it apart
Firstly, stat reqs aren't enablers to more powerful gear, they are a barrier that keeps the player from getting ahead of the difficulty. It's meant to keep a lvl 1 player from being as strong as a lvl 50 simple by gear alone. It's not unheard or to provide a player with all the powers they will ever have at the start and challenge them to find ways to maximize their potential.
Armor, for example, can be limited to how much speed reduction it imposes and how much stamina drain it adds. The player can get stronger from moving in that armor and reduce the mobility and stamina penalty. Those are still stats, but they don't require any numbers to access their effects. What armor can provide is protection against injury (which disables limbs) to make it harder to land the killing blow, which disregards the need for a health bar. If the attacker staggers the target and penetrates the armor (by attacking a weak point like the armpit, groin, or visor or by using a weapon heavy enough to break the armor with a powerful blow), a killing blow is achieved, but the target cannot be injured and lose use of a limb (weapon arm or mobility penalty). So now combat is a battle of timing and stamina rather than who has the best numbers. Someone has to find an opening to land a kill.
For example:
Block with Shield> bash> step in and knock down with shield bash> power attack to the torso
Parry with sword>move to the side, turn> strike the back of the knee> strike the neck
You could disarm an opponent with a shield bash if it's an overhead blow. Just bash before the downswing.
Leveling happens in real life, too, we just don't have the numbers on a parchment in front of us.
blocking, quick reflexes which gives you time to dodge power-attacks and swing from another angle, directional power-attacks, a hard to achieve but more powerful back-powerattack, charging-swings where you run at the opponent, sprinting with shield to ram people, disarming shield-slams.
And if we're talking movement in combat generally, you have to move as to not get surrounded which happens quite a lot, you have to run around to get some space between you and a tougher enemy you just knocked down on the ground, you have to make sure you're pointing towards his direction and not leaving your back open, you might want to move to a better position to FUS RO DAH his whole being down a mountain.
There's a whole lot of spells, poisons and potions surrounding spending and gaining stamina, and a whole lot of reasons to level up stamina over health or magicka, as combat in skyrim has quite a bunch to do with it, as you can't power-attack, power-slam, or sprint around in combat without it, and you're much more likely to be staggered.
http://www.gamebanshee.com/skyrim/mapofskyrim.php#null
I can't even count the number of times...
Using Skyrim as the base gameplay, can you give an example of a system that you think would work better? Your new method has to work not just for weapon combat, but for magic combat, picking pockets, speech/dialogue skill checks, and crafting. It also has to allow all of the game's experiences to be accessible by all players, whether they have a high level of actual physical dexterity with a gamepad/mouse or are simply average.
ps: r.i.p lydia
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/11/21/skyrim-lydia-death/
LOL. thats awesome.
My lydia died on some random necromancer quest. She got reanimated AGAINST me, so I had to murder her as well as the Douche-y necromancer... then root through her rotten ashes to reclaim all my stolen goods
RIP and all that, but I'm glad to now have a companion who is a little more appreciative of the opportunity to haul around my loot.
That was a bit of a bummer.
I celebrated by turning into a werewolf and killing every last soul in Whiterun. I then picked up the earl and hung him up on a wall for all to see.
sometimes, but more often my companion will rush to tank dmg while I sit back crouched and undetected - giving me more times to volley off some sneak attack arrows.
<sigh>
Reloaded.
http://www.bethblog.com/index.php/2011/11/28/skyrim-1-2-update/
Love the swearing mudcrab, I might have to pick that mod up.
But now every random dragon I see in the world never attacks. They just bug out by flying in one spot and if I run closer to them they glitch a few hundred yards away and just stay motionless in the sky
Fail patch is total fail IMO.