I don't really think it's far to rag on a recent graduates work.
what is fair to make fun of is the sleazy opened shirt chest hair with gold chain look that the guy is rocking while promoting this game like the second coming of christ.
Don't take the piss out of the art of that character. It looks like student work, and probably is, so blame who declares it as an actual releasable game standard model.
10000 hours! thats almost 5 years of full time work lol. ...right?
It takes 30 minutes to fully smooth out and tweek the prophet from crysis. So my guess is about 20 or 30 mins.
And whoever thinks emailing that guy was unprofessional, should read the first post of this thread. Oniram did say that he and his group are fresh out of college. Even than he detailed out the email stating why he refused the offer. Posting the email here isnt really unprofessional if it is telling us the guy's true nature.
Look, Jim, I don't care for Steve Jobs most of the time, but don't you fucking dare insult his spirit with what you're offering and what you're wearing.
And whoever thinks emailing that guy was unprofessional, should read the first post of this thread. Oniram did say that he and his group are fresh out of college. Even than he detailed out the email stating why he refused the offer. Posting the email here isnt really unprofessional if it is telling us the guy's true nature.
Just because the guy is a douche doesn't make posting private shit in public professional behavior. Others on this forum have done the same with far stronger cases for doing so and been criticized for it. Furthermore this is basically a public smear.
Maybe it's justified, I mean the guy did threaten to do the same to him. But there's still nothing professional about racing him to the lowest stoop.
I do think you could've been more professional yourself in your email to him. Doing some research on the guy makes it obvious he doesn't know what he's talking about, he's like so many other "idea"/business guys out there.
Still, he's really not worth justifying your actions to. Probably just should've sent a polite "While we're thankful for your attention and consideration, after discussing it with my team we've decided pursuing this project is not in our best interest at the moment," etc, etc.
I think it's fine to post here warning others to avoid them getting into a similar position.
ok i feel that its time for me to respond, as it seems a lot of your are sort of missing the scenario. yes, i do agree that it was unprofessional of me to post a private email on here, but i do agree with those who said that people need to be aware of experiences and people like this.
im not outright trying to be a dick by posting here, im just sharing an experience i had and maybe hoping some people can give feedback or comments that will help others who encounter scenarios like this.
when it comes to me writing the big long email to him.. im sorry but i had no choice to be blunt. when the conversations between jim and me were nothing but
Jim: "give me your level, give me your level, give me your level, give me your level"
Me: "can we see a test."
Jim: "Epic & Reverb, Epic & Reverb, Epic & Reverb, Epic & Reverb,Give me your level"
Me: "we dont feel like just giving our work away"
Jim: "Epic & Reverb, NDA, Give me your level"
after all of that he told me to take some time to think about it. my friends and i took an hour and discussed this and make a final decision. we did give him a "we thank you for the opportunity but we will have to pass" or something of the like....
it was only yesterday that he emailed me back asking why. he said both he and Epic were curious as to why we were interested one minute but uninterested the next. thats the reason i told him all of that.. he asked.
but as i said before, i know i did step out of line at some points mentioning the 10k man hours (even if you're all getting a kick out of it) and the skyline comment but i did try to keep it as clean and professional as i possibly could aside from those bits. i admit that i dont know everything there is to know when it comes to business etiquette and professionalism, but at least i own up to it and dont go cursing at him and giving him threats..
In the future, send people like that a short email respectfully declining to participate. It's not worth your time to write a long, winding email and it's more professional to be brief and polite.
I wouldn't sweat it....This guy is a tool looking to exploit the unsuspecting by throwing around names like EPIC...calling him out on his bullshit is fine IMO
I don't think anyone here thinks you're the bad guy. Just pointing out it could have been done differently. I know everybody says its a great cautionary tale but you didn't really need to post the emails or mention the guys name to tell the story.
In regards to the email itself I'd have just told him I didn't want to accept a royalty deal (and omitted the fact that it was because his project was a sham) and insisted if he wanted the level he would have to pay for it.
If you wanted to be blunt you could have just summarized it by saying the project doesn't seem credible enough with only his word to go off of and left it at that.
Don't worry about ti Oniram. Polycount is like the video game art wikileaks.
Thanks for the info. I think it's very professional to call someone out as a scammer or someone like this as they only pull our profession down. My professional opinion of course.
While it 'nice' to think of the idea that getting into a Indie team which has no goals, which is a mess to say the least, and leaves you with a hardened skin, some people can't afford that leap of faith.
This is why forums are great, we can all warn each other to watch out for things like this. It is kind of ironic this guy is going to "warn" his connection not realizing we are polycount :-)
I have a feeling the "connections" with Epic are the just bought an Unreal license to sell the game commercially and using it as a slimy marketing ploy to get people to pay attention to their game. Although I do feel bad for the recent grad in the video.
I think you were unprofessional a bit in your communication with him, you spend a lot of time getting digs in that are not necessary or beneficial. He wasn't asking you for critique, telling him the art sucks and they take too long in any sense is really unnecessary unless you're on the team. Using words like "laughable" when describing their game to them is not appropriate.
Additionally, posting the whole thing here, and having your team chime in, is also unprofessional as hell.
This guy is not professional, is a joke, and is obviously a slimy "Unfinanced Entrepreneur" (this article should be required reading for anyone pursuing a creative career, btw. Written in '98 and still just as relevant), but that doesn't make your actions professional, either.
Agree completely with this. You've just egged the guy on instead of just saying the projects not for you.
Also If you are unsure of a companies credentials then you could ask for a large deposit upfront before work begins. Most Indy companies that pretend to be big shot developers will avoid this like the plague and their response to this will also show you their true intentions.
Agree completely with this. You've just egged the guy on instead of just saying the projects not for you.
Also If you are unsure of a companies credentials then you could ask for a large deposit upfront before work begins. Most Indy companies that pretend to be big shot developers will avoid this like the plague and their response to this will also show you their true intentions.
I agree with this as well. Not worth haggling with someone you don't want to work with. If they aren't meeting basic criteria everything else is irrelevant.
Agree with the others that said you were egging them on, telling them how full of shit they were. I know people can be crazy, sometimes there is no reasoning with them, there is no point in fighting or even telling them, they will not listen.
Just be as diplomatic and as concise as possible, otherwise they will get angry with you, you've just made an enemy unneccesarily.
Good job in unveiling this company for what it truly is. :poly127:
Not everybody knows how to spot these and it is important to call these types of scammers out before someone wastes a substantial amount of time on bullcrap.
Cheers, Oniram. I guess not everybody on Polycount can really be appreciative in regards to what you were really trying to accomplish here; which was to steer people clear from these scammers.
Shame on anyone who would want to keep this a secret. We need the scammers known. :thumbup:
Just be as diplomatic and as concise as possible, otherwise they will get angry with you, you've just made an enemy unneccesarily.
A professional would have had no issues with Oniram's very correct observations, and would be able to respond accordingly... in an equally professional manner.
Oniram's words may come across as harsh... but that's because those words are true.
Good job in unveiling this company for what it truly is. :poly127:
Not everybody knows how to spot these and it is important to call these types of scammers out before someone wastes a substantial amount of time on bullcrap.
Cheers, Oniram. I guess not everybody on Polycount can really be appreciative in regards to what you were really trying to accomplish here; which was to steer people clear from these scammers.
Shame on anyone who would want to keep this a secret. We need the scammers known. :thumbup:
A professional would have had no issues with Oniram's very correct observations, and would be able to respond accordingly... in an equally professional manner.
Oniram's words may come across as harsh... but that's because those words are true.
Thats the thing the person clearly wasnt a proffesional, which garnered the appropriate(to him) unproffesional response.
I agree these people should be exposed and all, but you have to be careful, I'm pretty sure they have slander laws in the US and Canada.
This information could have been presented more politely instead of having private emails exposed to everyone.
Like a summary of point of how to spot a scammer instead of this point scoring peer method.
A storyline where one panel explains the aliens built the pyramids, but that has nothing to do with anything because the whole comic is about punching robots
I don't think you fully appreciate the scope of such an epic tale....he's looking for answers...he was chosen from among the worlds most masterful warriors...he must defeat ...someone ...and some aliens ...also a werewolf....I'm pretty sure this is what heaven is.
Cheers, Oniram. I guess not everybody on Polycount can really be appreciative in regards to what you were really trying to accomplish here; which was to steer people clear from these scammers.
Shame on anyone who would want to keep this a secret. We need the scammers known. :thumbup:
You can be appreciative and critical. Those who are pointing out Oniram's lack of professionalism aren't "siding" with the other side or trying to hide anything.
He posted it to look for responses from the community and that's what he got. Anyone reading this thread should be able to learn a thing or two on how not to be professional, which is perfect since that is the name of the thread.
If the thread was named something like "Our experience with xxx studio", and the goal was to share their experience rather than listing all the "laughable" things that the company said/did, then there would be no talk of lacking professionalism.
You could just post a thread to discuss the company/game and how legit it was and get the same cheap laughs at the "CEO" and their team's work, without posting private emails.
Agree with the others that said you were egging them on, telling them how full of shit they were. I know people can be crazy, sometimes there is no reasoning with them, there is no point in fighting or even telling them, they will not listen.
Just be as diplomatic and as concise as possible, otherwise they will get angry with you, you've just made an enemy unneccesarily.
Seems he made an enemy by just by not wanting to work with, or give away their map to him.
Of all outings, this seems the most proper one. This guy is tricking naive people into working for free for his own gains.
It contradicts the constitution, so it does not apply. :thumbup:
There is a law. The law is enforced. People do win defamation cases. The US constitution does allow for some differences to other countries libel/defamation laws. But it still applies.
The constitution cannot change because someone interprets it differently. The meanings it contains are very clear and are only up for debate when personal biases and emotions come into play, ruining the purpose of the constitution entirely.
These are my beliefs and I stand by them. Judges are tainted by a broken system, they do not have the mental capacity to make unbiased decisions because of the influence money plays in actually winning cases.
I think the important part is: defamations are about false statements.
While free speech is and should be protected due to the very fact that on one should be able to stop someone from talking about the truth and honest facts, even if it makes someone look rightfully bad.
To those of you accusing Oniram's posting of the private email as unprofessional. Unless you consider being professional a code of ethics to be used in all aspects of your life, and not limited to your profession, then you are using the term out of context.
And lets face it, i'm sure none of you are professional in every aspect of your life.
Although I do agree that the message could have been shorter, that guy was in desperate need of a reality check, and Oniram couldn't have done it better.
of course no one is professional in every aspect of life, people are professional with things that relate to their profession.
Thats basically the definition of acting professional isnt it??
this was to do with his profession, hence people are expecting oniram to act professionally.
im confusing myself now. For the record i think oniram is def in the right even if he/she went about it in a slightly unprofessional way!
Replies
what is fair to make fun of is the sleazy opened shirt chest hair with gold chain look that the guy is rocking while promoting this game like the second coming of christ.
(EDIT) oooh beat me.
If this had a Comedy Central ident st the start or something of the ilk it would be totally understandable.
It takes 30 minutes to fully smooth out and tweek the prophet from crysis. So my guess is about 20 or 30 mins.
And whoever thinks emailing that guy was unprofessional, should read the first post of this thread. Oniram did say that he and his group are fresh out of college. Even than he detailed out the email stating why he refused the offer. Posting the email here isnt really unprofessional if it is telling us the guy's true nature.
Read the original post again sir.
Look, Jim, I don't care for Steve Jobs most of the time, but don't you fucking dare insult his spirit with what you're offering and what you're wearing.
Maybe it's justified, I mean the guy did threaten to do the same to him. But there's still nothing professional about racing him to the lowest stoop.
Still, he's really not worth justifying your actions to. Probably just should've sent a polite "While we're thankful for your attention and consideration, after discussing it with my team we've decided pursuing this project is not in our best interest at the moment," etc, etc.
I think it's fine to post here warning others to avoid them getting into a similar position.
im not outright trying to be a dick by posting here, im just sharing an experience i had and maybe hoping some people can give feedback or comments that will help others who encounter scenarios like this.
when it comes to me writing the big long email to him.. im sorry but i had no choice to be blunt. when the conversations between jim and me were nothing but
Jim: "give me your level, give me your level, give me your level, give me your level"
Me: "can we see a test."
Jim: "Epic & Reverb, Epic & Reverb, Epic & Reverb, Epic & Reverb,Give me your level"
Me: "we dont feel like just giving our work away"
Jim: "Epic & Reverb, NDA, Give me your level"
after all of that he told me to take some time to think about it. my friends and i took an hour and discussed this and make a final decision. we did give him a "we thank you for the opportunity but we will have to pass" or something of the like....
it was only yesterday that he emailed me back asking why. he said both he and Epic were curious as to why we were interested one minute but uninterested the next. thats the reason i told him all of that.. he asked.
but as i said before, i know i did step out of line at some points mentioning the 10k man hours (even if you're all getting a kick out of it) and the skyline comment but i did try to keep it as clean and professional as i possibly could aside from those bits. i admit that i dont know everything there is to know when it comes to business etiquette and professionalism, but at least i own up to it and dont go cursing at him and giving him threats..
Yeah, also a valuable lesson.
so a short not interested would have worked, and not wasted your time on BS.
In regards to the email itself I'd have just told him I didn't want to accept a royalty deal (and omitted the fact that it was because his project was a sham) and insisted if he wanted the level he would have to pay for it.
If you wanted to be blunt you could have just summarized it by saying the project doesn't seem credible enough with only his word to go off of and left it at that.
Thanks for the info. I think it's very professional to call someone out as a scammer or someone like this as they only pull our profession down. My professional opinion of course.
I laughed :P
While it 'nice' to think of the idea that getting into a Indie team which has no goals, which is a mess to say the least, and leaves you with a hardened skin, some people can't afford that leap of faith.
So yeah, Blacklist-o-rama it is.
Agree completely with this. You've just egged the guy on instead of just saying the projects not for you.
Also If you are unsure of a companies credentials then you could ask for a large deposit upfront before work begins. Most Indy companies that pretend to be big shot developers will avoid this like the plague and their response to this will also show you their true intentions.
I agree with this as well. Not worth haggling with someone you don't want to work with. If they aren't meeting basic criteria everything else is irrelevant.
This is a good reference if you really want to work as or with a startup studio. [ame="http://www.amazon.ca/Game-Development-Business-Legal-Guide/dp/1592000428/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1319308982&sr=8-1"]Game Development Business and Legal Guide: Amazon.ca: Ashley Salisbury: Books[/ame]
Just be as diplomatic and as concise as possible, otherwise they will get angry with you, you've just made an enemy unneccesarily.
Not everybody knows how to spot these and it is important to call these types of scammers out before someone wastes a substantial amount of time on bullcrap.
Cheers, Oniram.
Shame on anyone who would want to keep this a secret. We need the scammers known. :thumbup:
A professional would have had no issues with Oniram's very correct observations, and would be able to respond accordingly... in an equally professional manner.
Oniram's words may come across as harsh... but that's because those words are true.
seriously though...did anyone read the comic?...you must, your life is incomplete without it.
Thats the thing the person clearly wasnt a proffesional, which garnered the appropriate(to him) unproffesional response.
I agree these people should be exposed and all, but you have to be careful, I'm pretty sure they have slander laws in the US and Canada.
This information could have been presented more politely instead of having private emails exposed to everyone.
Like a summary of point of how to spot a scammer instead of this point scoring peer method.
I think his version of epic connection is indeed, buy Udk license from epic, mooch off other freshmen artists' arts and get filthy rich.
Completely missing out the break even part. <.<
A storyline where one panel explains the aliens built the pyramids, but that has nothing to do with anything because the whole comic is about punching robots
aaaarrgg indeed
No such thing in the US anyways.
Free speech is free speech. Anything that tries to contradict constitutional rights are not valid.
Also, slander isn't slander when it's actually facts. :thumbup:
You can be appreciative and critical. Those who are pointing out Oniram's lack of professionalism aren't "siding" with the other side or trying to hide anything.
He posted it to look for responses from the community and that's what he got. Anyone reading this thread should be able to learn a thing or two on how not to be professional, which is perfect since that is the name of the thread.
If the thread was named something like "Our experience with xxx studio", and the goal was to share their experience rather than listing all the "laughable" things that the company said/did, then there would be no talk of lacking professionalism.
You could just post a thread to discuss the company/game and how legit it was and get the same cheap laughs at the "CEO" and their team's work, without posting private emails.
it's called defamation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_defamation_law
Seems he made an enemy by just by not wanting to work with, or give away their map to him.
Of all outings, this seems the most proper one. This guy is tricking naive people into working for free for his own gains.
It contradicts the constitution, so it does not apply. :thumbup:
There is a law. The law is enforced. People do win defamation cases. The US constitution does allow for some differences to other countries libel/defamation laws. But it still applies.
I know very well that the law exists, but that law is invalid and treating it as if it is valid is willfully giving away your rights.
Anyways, there was no defamation since it was all facts....
Did you read the case history in the wikipedia article? I think several judges disagree with you.
These are my beliefs and I stand by them. Judges are tainted by a broken system, they do not have the mental capacity to make unbiased decisions because of the influence money plays in actually winning cases.
While free speech is and should be protected due to the very fact that on one should be able to stop someone from talking about the truth and honest facts, even if it makes someone look rightfully bad.
And lets face it, i'm sure none of you are professional in every aspect of your life.
Although I do agree that the message could have been shorter, that guy was in desperate need of a reality check, and Oniram couldn't have done it better.
Thats basically the definition of acting professional isnt it??
this was to do with his profession, hence people are expecting oniram to act professionally.
im confusing myself now. For the record i think oniram is def in the right even if he/she went about it in a slightly unprofessional way!