Wow - some "interesting" and very black and white responses here to what is undoubtadely an area of varying shades of grey. People linking news from Stormfront - a known far right, extremist, racist skinhead organisation seems to be a bit far to me personally, on an open, multi-cultural board such as this.
I think the background of the situation needs to be taken into account here. The Met police have quite an abhorrent recent track record for unlawful killings, with a number of high profile cases such as Jean Charles De Menez, Smiley Culture, Steven Lawrence and Ian Tomlinson being played out in the media, and high court, and exposing wide spread, high level police corruption in such cases, and even systematic racism. The Iain Tomlinson case especially, is chilling to read about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ian_Tomlinson - and shows the rampant subterfuge which exists in the Met.
Take into account the first news reports that the man shot dead was an armed drug dealer who shot at officers, to the details which we are now seeing, that the IPCC was on the case almost immediately afterwards, the balistics report saying that the bullet fired at the officer was actually from a police issue handgun, and therefore seems to be a colleague who could have misfired, and the heavy handed tactics shown by police during the original, peaceful protest outside the constabulary station
Some of the highest levels of unemplyment in recent years, the disparity in wealth between the "rich" and "poor", political apathy, huge public sector budget cuts, banking and economic crises where the architects aren't ever held accountable, widepspread journalistic and police collusion and corruption by one of the biggest news ocroprations, and a general feeling of disenfranchisement of the youth that are rioting all need to be taken into account. Couple this with channels like MTV showing people who started out in the same situation as many of the kids involved in teh riots boasting about their enormous levels of wealth, a society where immense physical wealth and possesions are lusted after, sports stars making more in a week than most of these people could hope to make in a year and you can start to see where problems could stem from.
Is most of the rioting and looting as a direct result of the killing of Mark Duggan? Probably not. Most of the people involved are probably opportunists, taken an opportunity to get some free swag with no repurcussions, hiding behind a legitimate cause. The fact that theose involved are undoubtadely disenfranchised with their current situation is unarguable though, and this is the bigger picture that society has to deal with to stop this sort of thing happening in the future. People calling for martial law and vigilantism are missing the wider issues which have to be dealt with for a fully functioning society in my opinion.
Bloody hell. So its spreading a bit. This morning I heard it had spread to Nottingham.
Why aren't the police using the "loud toys"? Stun guns, water cannons, etc... I can see this ending in innocent people dying, probably in a fire. Might be the only thing that stops this.
Not really the time for humour but, Someone posted on Facebook that they should send in Gazza with his fishing rod...made me giggle a little.
nobody is going to acknowledge the spark of this? A black man was shot by police which was the last straw for a black population in London who feel marginalized and discriminated against.
.....Really?
That guy was a known gangster who opened fire on the cops when they shouted at him to stop. He hit one of their radios, and they returned fire. A lowlife thug got killed because hes a stupid waste of air and these rioters are no better in my book.
fat_cap - all police shootings are immediately referred to the IPCC, don't read much into that.
here's a nice little microcosm of the social malaise we're dealing with. ... sorry, when i said social malaise i did of course mean 'bunch of unbelievable fucking cunts'
That guy was a known gangster who opened fire on the cops when they shouted at him to stop. He hit one of their radios, and they returned fire.
Except that the prelimanary ballistics reports are saying the bullet lodged in the police radio was from a police issue handgun, meaning the first reports are at least somehwat misleading. Read up on the cases I highlighted above, and how the first reports of similar recent cases (given by the police) are often deliberately obfuscatory or downright lies.
@Danr - Ah - I didn't know that all police shootings are immediately referred to the IPCC, rather than just after a specific accusation was made. Thanks for clearing that up, as it does shed a slightly different light on things.
The original rioting appears to have stemmed from the heavy handed use of force against the original peaceful protestors outside the police station - not as a direct reponse to the original shooting. There is still no excuse for what is going on, how the rioting is spreading, or the opportunist thugs who have joined in and turned their anger onto honest, normal, working class people, property and businesses though.
~ I don't want to speak too much on this matter; as 1. I'm black and pretty fucking offended at white supremacy links and the talk of Mark Duggan being a 'known gangster' when I actually know people who are related to him.
I don't even want to go into detail about the fact that his so called 'gunshots' were police issue bullets and they haven't found a weapon for him.
I'm just gonna update with pictures of last night.
Right now in many areas the streets are fucking dead outside.
Nobody is going anywhere and everything smells of burning. Its much much worse than the media is making out, but the police have completely lost control now.
Almost all stores have closed or barricaded their fronts alongside the danger areas.
Except that the prelimanary ballistics reports are saying the bullet lodged in the police radio was from a police issue handgun, meaning the first reports are at least somehwat misleading. Read up on the cases I highlighted above, and how the first reports of similar recent cases (given by the police) are often deliberately obfuscatory or downright lies.
Right, and all of the rioters somehow knew about this before the investigation was made public?
Right, and all of the rioters somehow knew about this before the investigation was made public?
Even if they did it doesn't justify jack shit.
nobody is justifying anything;
but you are talking about him as if his family doesn't deserve answers. You're condemning him as a 'guilty scumbag' and you don't any facts or have any affiliation to anyone concerned in the matter.
Right, and all of the rioters somehow knew about this before the investigation was made public?
Even if they did it doesn't justify jack shit.
Are you deliberately not reading parts of people's posts, or specifically only referring to selected portions to try and take their comments out of context?
The original rioting appears to have stemmed from the heavy handed use of force against the original peaceful protestors outside the police station - not as a direct reponse to the original shooting. There is still no excuse for what is going on, how the rioting is spreading, or the opportunist thugs who have joined in and turned their anger onto honest, normal, working class people, property and businesses though.
Just before [CNN correspondent Dan] Rivers suggested to viewers of CNN that the rioters in London seemed to be more interested in looting than protesting, Zeinobia [Egyptian blogger and activist who took part in the protests that forced ex-Egyptian leader Hosni Mubarak from power] made a similar observation from a much greater distance, writing: "I am sorry but you do not loot to object the murder of a young man, you are using his murder."
and this.. oh the irony..
Isna students news agency (in English), Iran
Iran called for London police to exercise self-restraint in dealing with protesters in Tottenham, north of London. Iranian Foreign Ministry Spokesman Ramin Mehmanparast referred to Saturday night's massive protests in Tottenham, which came following [the killing] of a young black man by Scotland Yard police and called for the UK government to avoid any police's harsh treatment with protesters. He stressed return of peace and calm to London through talks and examining demands of the demonstrators. Mehmanparast expressed hope independent human rights bodies would take measures to make clear facts behind murder of the black man soon.
I dont think the shooting has much to do with the outcome. Its people looking for an excuse. When people are targetting random houses, flats, shops. Thats not targetting the cause of their anger. There just shitting in their own garden(although there not because there probably from different areas).
"I am sorry but you do not loot to object the murder of a young man, you are using his murder."
^ this.
Maybe it started out as a protest, but now it's just a bunch of people abusing the chaos to profit from it and cause shit tons of damage to others.
Perhaps we can set up an exchange program with the arab-states such as Libya and Syria? They take these lot off of us who clearly think living in a police state is a good idea, and we'll have the people who want to live in a democracy. Win-win!
Definitely people taking advantage. NO EXCUSE.
But the Police have also managed the whole situation very badly.
And the Duggan killing is all a bit suspicious.
I live a 10 minute walk from Wood Green high street which was damaged pretty badly on Saturday night when the rioters moved from the worst him Tottenham Hale area. At the bottom of Wood Green high street I get the tube to work every day travelling further to the centre at Piccadilly. Most shops are closed with their shutters down in my area. Funny how some of the shops are staying open and have had a massive influx in business. My apartment looks over Tottenham and there was a very large fire ablaze last night and all the smoke from it this morning. I've been hearing constant sirens, day and night, for the past 2 days. It feels like a small taster for if/when things REALLY go bad.
I hope it doesn't continue or get worse tonight.
I can see some serious restrictions on London and possibly peoples freedoms for the Olympics next year.
Joy.
Wow - some "interesting" and very black and white responses here to what is undoubtadely an area of varying shades of grey. People linking news from Stormfront - a known far right, extremist, racist skinhead organisation seems to be a bit far to me personally, on an open, multi-cultural board such as this.
I think the background of the situation needs to be taken into account here. The Met police have quite an abhorrent recent track record for unlawful killings, with a number of high profile cases such as Jean Charles De Menez, Smiley Culture, Steven Lawrence and Ian Tomlinson being played out in the media, and high court, and exposing wide spread, high level police corruption in such cases, and even systematic racism. The Iain Tomlinson case especially, is chilling to read about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ian_Tomlinson - and shows the rampant subterfuge which exists in the Met.
Take into account the first news reports that the man shot dead was an armed drug dealer who shot at officers, to the details which we are now seeing, that the IPCC was on the case almost immediately afterwards, the balistics report saying that the bullet fired at the officer was actually from a police issue handgun, and therefore seems to be a colleague who could have misfired, and the heavy handed tactics shown by police during the original, peaceful protest outside the constabulary station
Some of the highest levels of unemplyment in recent years, the disparity in wealth between the "rich" and "poor", political apathy, huge public sector budget cuts, banking and economic crises where the architects aren't ever held accountable, widepspread journalistic and police collusion and corruption by one of the biggest news ocroprations, and a general feeling of disenfranchisement of the youth that are rioting all need to be taken into account. Couple this with channels like MTV showing people who started out in the same situation as many of the kids involved in teh riots boasting about their enormous levels of wealth, a society where immense physical wealth and possesions are lusted after, sports stars making more in a week than most of these people could hope to make in a year and you can start to see where problems could stem from.
Is most of the rioting and looting as a direct result of the killing of Mark Duggan? Probably not. Most of the people involved are probably opportunists, taken an opportunity to get some free swag with no repurcussions, hiding behind a legitimate cause. The fact that theose involved are undoubtadely disenfranchised with their current situation is unarguable though, and this is the bigger picture that society has to deal with to stop this sort of thing happening in the future. People calling for martial law and vigilantism are missing the wider issues which have to be dealt with for a fully functioning society in my opinion.
Crazy, I used to rent a room in the Seven Sisters area when I was living in London a few years ago. Strangely, Tottenham never struck me as a dangerous place, so seeing it in this kind of state is quite shocking.
Last night I sat down and watched BBC, around 3 AM I heard an alarm in the neighbouring Halford's shop next to my house, I looked out through my window, it was attacked by a group of people, all young too, they did not manage to break into it, instead they set the alarm off, police showed up in about 5 minutes, 3 of them ran into the street next of it and walked into private property parking lot which is just in front of my window, they sat there and simply walked off after couple of minutes.
What pennyred says is interesting, if not a bit romanticised. But I think it's time for more action now, not enough force has allowed it to go on longer as well as to spread across england.
the burning of unrelated family houses and building happened after a shooting of 1 guy. is this a justice?
riot is no stranger to me, what happen is london is very mild compared to what
me and my families ve experience ... and it is definitely not a justice solution.
its a proof that zombie does exist
Oh man, things got so complicated I don't know what to say. They don't have any idea what they are doing in the first place. I agree the commercialized education system and unemployment are big affectors here but it is too simple a mistake to take part in such acts. I feel sorry for both sides
I dont believe those people think that burning down their neigbours' shops and houses is going to do anything against police brutality. This is really just a few guys breaking stuff for fun and looting the shit out of anything they find.
Well, i was coming back from my Bros wedding to Birmingham, didnt realise it hit us up here. I live in the city centre - least my place is gated up!!!
But its crazy why this is going on and it cant be from the shooting there has always been a big margin from the poor and rich - teenagers are standing up as they feel that they dont have a future in the society we know of.
Professor Gus John of the Moss Side Defence Committee in Manchester tells the BBC News Channel the young people involved in the unrest have lost hope in their futures. "We're dealing with a betrayed generation of young people," he says. "They have been marginalized from any debate about the country's future and they are making themselves heard on the streets."
Kinda agree with him above!
I am also a youth group leader for a long time - I have seen a change in the kids we get, but also in the kids that we have had for awhile they want more dependence they dont want to listen to what we have to say - its difficult!
"its the governments fault! .... yeah! ... consaahvatives ... whoever it is, i dannaah'
jesus fucking wept
It's the governments fault!
Wait. We're showing the police we can do what we want!
No. Hold on...It's the RICH people!
Arrest all these motherfuckers and put them on monitored community service, cleaning all this shit up, in front of the people they've scared, harmed and hurt.
Absolutely disgusting, attacking your own community and destroying local businesses and property, all for causes even the rioters don't really understand (if any real cause exists at this point in the rioting/looting).
wow... unbelievable. Seriously? help the guy who is bleeding and in some kind of shock, only to go through his backpack? this is ridiculous. This are the kind of people that don't have any conscience at all.
"showing the police we can do anything that we want... because of the rich people"
the only thing they showed is how stupid they are, and how there is no awareness and that their points of view are all invalid as soon as they started to cause mayhem within their own communities.
Seriously... why within their communities? firemen trying to put out a fire are attacked! some drunk stupid girls talking about the good ol' fun. I really hope this settles soon, and that the people responsible are hold accountable for this disaster. I am so sorry for any people that is involved involuntary because of peoples selfishness and serious un educated reactions, motivations and behaviors.
Hang on though... that kid that got 'mugged'. What was taken out of his bag seemed to be still in a plastic shell, missing the outer packaging. What if he was also a looter?
hmm... maybe. I don't condone the fact that he might be a looter. But i guess the action of someone else helping to loot or take advantage of someone in that condition is pretty despicable.
I just think the whole thing overall is disgusting. The young people there that behave this way, "rebelling" because they have no hope, or whatever reason, is just unacceptable.
Wait. We're showing the police we can do what we want!
No. Hold on...It's the RICH people!
I don't think you have thought this through if you don't think these three groups are connected. The rich fund the government and get what they want, and the police are the arm of the government to enforce it's policies. It's entirely consistent to be angry at all 3. (I know I am)
Hang on though... that kid that got 'mugged'. What was taken out of his bag seemed to be still in a plastic shell, missing the outer packaging. What if he was also a looter?
actually if you look... it looks like a tupperware box.
Replies
I think the background of the situation needs to be taken into account here. The Met police have quite an abhorrent recent track record for unlawful killings, with a number of high profile cases such as Jean Charles De Menez, Smiley Culture, Steven Lawrence and Ian Tomlinson being played out in the media, and high court, and exposing wide spread, high level police corruption in such cases, and even systematic racism. The Iain Tomlinson case especially, is chilling to read about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ian_Tomlinson - and shows the rampant subterfuge which exists in the Met.
Take into account the first news reports that the man shot dead was an armed drug dealer who shot at officers, to the details which we are now seeing, that the IPCC was on the case almost immediately afterwards, the balistics report saying that the bullet fired at the officer was actually from a police issue handgun, and therefore seems to be a colleague who could have misfired, and the heavy handed tactics shown by police during the original, peaceful protest outside the constabulary station
Some of the highest levels of unemplyment in recent years, the disparity in wealth between the "rich" and "poor", political apathy, huge public sector budget cuts, banking and economic crises where the architects aren't ever held accountable, widepspread journalistic and police collusion and corruption by one of the biggest news ocroprations, and a general feeling of disenfranchisement of the youth that are rioting all need to be taken into account. Couple this with channels like MTV showing people who started out in the same situation as many of the kids involved in teh riots boasting about their enormous levels of wealth, a society where immense physical wealth and possesions are lusted after, sports stars making more in a week than most of these people could hope to make in a year and you can start to see where problems could stem from.
Is most of the rioting and looting as a direct result of the killing of Mark Duggan? Probably not. Most of the people involved are probably opportunists, taken an opportunity to get some free swag with no repurcussions, hiding behind a legitimate cause. The fact that theose involved are undoubtadely disenfranchised with their current situation is unarguable though, and this is the bigger picture that society has to deal with to stop this sort of thing happening in the future. People calling for martial law and vigilantism are missing the wider issues which have to be dealt with for a fully functioning society in my opinion.
Why aren't the police using the "loud toys"? Stun guns, water cannons, etc... I can see this ending in innocent people dying, probably in a fire. Might be the only thing that stops this.
Not really the time for humour but, Someone posted on Facebook that they should send in Gazza with his fishing rod...made me giggle a little.
.....Really?
That guy was a known gangster who opened fire on the cops when they shouted at him to stop. He hit one of their radios, and they returned fire. A lowlife thug got killed because hes a stupid waste of air and these rioters are no better in my book.
Simple as that. Don't even try to justify this.
here's a nice little microcosm of the social malaise we're dealing with. ... sorry, when i said social malaise i did of course mean 'bunch of unbelievable fucking cunts'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gex_ya4-Oo&feature=youtu.be
http://www.riotcleanup.com/
No excuse or explanation will justify this behavior.
Pay attention to the news before making inflammatory posts please.
Except that the prelimanary ballistics reports are saying the bullet lodged in the police radio was from a police issue handgun, meaning the first reports are at least somehwat misleading. Read up on the cases I highlighted above, and how the first reports of similar recent cases (given by the police) are often deliberately obfuscatory or downright lies.
@Danr - Ah - I didn't know that all police shootings are immediately referred to the IPCC, rather than just after a specific accusation was made. Thanks for clearing that up, as it does shed a slightly different light on things.
The original rioting appears to have stemmed from the heavy handed use of force against the original peaceful protestors outside the police station - not as a direct reponse to the original shooting. There is still no excuse for what is going on, how the rioting is spreading, or the opportunist thugs who have joined in and turned their anger onto honest, normal, working class people, property and businesses though.
"200 youths in masks in the Toxteth area"
So where are the rest of them? I shit you not, i was mugged at knife point in toxteth for a Bigmac meal. So 200 is pretty dam shy of a shitstorm.
I don't even want to go into detail about the fact that his so called 'gunshots' were police issue bullets and they haven't found a weapon for him.
I'm just gonna update with pictures of last night.
Right now in many areas the streets are fucking dead outside.
Nobody is going anywhere and everything smells of burning. Its much much worse than the media is making out, but the police have completely lost control now.
Almost all stores have closed or barricaded their fronts alongside the danger areas.
Right, and all of the rioters somehow knew about this before the investigation was made public?
Even if they did it doesn't justify jack shit.
nobody is justifying anything;
but you are talking about him as if his family doesn't deserve answers. You're condemning him as a 'guilty scumbag' and you don't any facts or have any affiliation to anyone concerned in the matter.
Are you deliberately not reading parts of people's posts, or specifically only referring to selected portions to try and take their comments out of context?
Just before [CNN correspondent Dan] Rivers suggested to viewers of CNN that the rioters in London seemed to be more interested in looting than protesting, Zeinobia [Egyptian blogger and activist who took part in the protests that forced ex-Egyptian leader Hosni Mubarak from power] made a similar observation from a much greater distance, writing: "I am sorry but you do not loot to object the murder of a young man, you are using his murder."
and this.. oh the irony..
Isna students news agency (in English), Iran
Iran called for London police to exercise self-restraint in dealing with protesters in Tottenham, north of London. Iranian Foreign Ministry Spokesman Ramin Mehmanparast referred to Saturday night's massive protests in Tottenham, which came following [the killing] of a young black man by Scotland Yard police and called for the UK government to avoid any police's harsh treatment with protesters. He stressed return of peace and calm to London through talks and examining demands of the demonstrators. Mehmanparast expressed hope independent human rights bodies would take measures to make clear facts behind murder of the black man soon.
^ this.
Maybe it started out as a protest, but now it's just a bunch of people abusing the chaos to profit from it and cause shit tons of damage to others.
But the Police have also managed the whole situation very badly.
And the Duggan killing is all a bit suspicious.
I live a 10 minute walk from Wood Green high street which was damaged pretty badly on Saturday night when the rioters moved from the worst him Tottenham Hale area. At the bottom of Wood Green high street I get the tube to work every day travelling further to the centre at Piccadilly. Most shops are closed with their shutters down in my area. Funny how some of the shops are staying open and have had a massive influx in business. My apartment looks over Tottenham and there was a very large fire ablaze last night and all the smoke from it this morning. I've been hearing constant sirens, day and night, for the past 2 days. It feels like a small taster for if/when things REALLY go bad.
I hope it doesn't continue or get worse tonight.
I can see some serious restrictions on London and possibly peoples freedoms for the Olympics next year.
Joy.
This is a really great post.
With all due respect and love, what complete horseshit. That is a completely incorrect statement. Europe, and the UK, are ANYTHING but monocultural.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/8563886.stm
"capital of culture" awards contridict you there
Agreed.
An interesting write up:
http://pennyred.blogspot.com/2011/08/panic-on-streets-of-london.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8690416/London-riots-bleeding-boy-robbed-by-passers-by.html
If these thugs get caught and sentenced I hope they drop the soap in jail.
Even the birds are at it:
riot is no stranger to me, what happen is london is very mild compared to what
me and my families ve experience ... and it is definitely not a justice solution.
its a proof that zombie does exist
Hope all you British Polycounters are safe.
Stay safe guys.
But its crazy why this is going on and it cant be from the shooting there has always been a big margin from the poor and rich - teenagers are standing up as they feel that they dont have a future in the society we know of.
Professor Gus John of the Moss Side Defence Committee in Manchester tells the BBC News Channel the young people involved in the unrest have lost hope in their futures. "We're dealing with a betrayed generation of young people," he says. "They have been marginalized from any debate about the country's future and they are making themselves heard on the streets."
Kinda agree with him above!
I am also a youth group leader for a long time - I have seen a change in the kids we get, but also in the kids that we have had for awhile they want more dependence they dont want to listen to what we have to say - its difficult!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424
"its the governments fault! .... yeah! ... consaahvatives ... whoever it is, i dannaah'
jesus fucking wept
...
It's the governments fault!
Wait. We're showing the police we can do what we want!
No. Hold on...It's the RICH people!
Arrest all these motherfuckers and put them on monitored community service, cleaning all this shit up, in front of the people they've scared, harmed and hurt.
Absolutely disgusting, attacking your own community and destroying local businesses and property, all for causes even the rioters don't really understand (if any real cause exists at this point in the rioting/looting).
"showing the police we can do anything that we want... because of the rich people"
the only thing they showed is how stupid they are, and how there is no awareness and that their points of view are all invalid as soon as they started to cause mayhem within their own communities.
Seriously... why within their communities? firemen trying to put out a fire are attacked! some drunk stupid girls talking about the good ol' fun. I really hope this settles soon, and that the people responsible are hold accountable for this disaster. I am so sorry for any people that is involved involuntary because of peoples selfishness and serious un educated reactions, motivations and behaviors.
I just think the whole thing overall is disgusting. The young people there that behave this way, "rebelling" because they have no hope, or whatever reason, is just unacceptable.
00:38 9/8/2011: Camden Town, London by pixel.eight, on Flickr
Awesome.
More here:
http://photoshoplooter.tumblr.com/
no, he's spun that in his favour so badly. he's used this as a political opportunity to get in as mayor next year instead of actually trying to help.
I don't think you have thought this through if you don't think these three groups are connected. The rich fund the government and get what they want, and the police are the arm of the government to enforce it's policies. It's entirely consistent to be angry at all 3. (I know I am)
actually if you look... it looks like a tupperware box.
it really looks like they stole his lunch.