whatttt? I don't want to make this turn into a debate about it, but honestly, I don't think anything out there is anywhere near as powerful as blenders hotkey workflow on polygons. A LOT of blender is not up to par, true, but poly modeling isn't one of them - I Enjoy making models again, because it is so slick with handling vertexes, edges, and faces... It more and more becomes a part of my own pipes saving me time in a few areas of content creation. It is very very powerful, and it is quickly becoming popular and favored amongst people who use things like autodesk products already. I couldn't even make a box in this program, for what it's worth - but I also didn't look at how to before trying, and I wouldn't be able to make one in blender without looking first as well, to be fair.
Paid addons are great funding for a program with limitless install base out of all interested people since it's free with options for commercial licenses. See what I'm saying there? Scripting may be covered, but that is like, expected. I'm talking about products that compliment this, the gateway app.
It was just a loose off the top set of things to consider.
Training material + paid add ons as a set of options for people who install and use the free program is big bucks for a new market that really "one shot sales" are not enough to stay afloat in anyway.
Unreal is free, unity uses a free model, autodesk is free for students, blender is free and more popular than ever, lots of other free engines. All of them making big bucks with training material or add ons or both. the reasoning for it is because the market is changed and now you gotta gain a userbase THEN sell them things, because you don't make enough money selling someone one-off anymore. I mean, this is all throughout the entire market, all the way into end user dlc lol.
It's like, he can make more money teaching people how to use it + making a market for add ons when million people install his application and then 100 thousand of them buy something 1 time than he ever will make selling the program to 1 out of every 100 who ever takes the plunge and buys it.
And people do not like demos anymore :P Unity is so ugly with it's limited offering, and I've already been told from the previous post I made in a PM it's so true about unity, why bother with it, UDK is unlimited. Why bother with anything when .edu email = free autodesk and blender is now awesome and has always been free.
Enter the market free, can't go wrong with information technology like this, you can make so much money on the side with the addons and training material, and create professions for your advanced users who train and make add ons as well.
Sell for installation instead of money is the motive behind what I'm talking about here, because it opens a doorway to a much more versatile shop to setup than just "the program itself, one time". Instead, it could be free to use with a whole bungaload of add ons and training material that rakes in $$ multiple times from multiple happy to pay pleased users of the software.
r_fletch_r: scripting feature is always in mind, but: 1. The programe isn't mature enough so it's too early to create a set of API. 2. I even don't know how to make this feature happen yet in programing.
mmwizard: The program is built and runs upon directx and .net frame work. It these two things can be installed into Mac, it may be possible for VW to run in Mac if I can find replacements for some codes which use Window's API directly like keyboard hooking.
passerby: The performance is a big concern. I am currently updating the documentation. Once finish that, I will look into the performance issue. I have some ideas but not sure it will work or not. May take a couple of weeks as the data structure will be changed that leads to changes every where across the whole program.
mortalhuman: Thanks for such detailed advice!
It seems to me the funding model you described isn't pratical for this propram at its current stage. VW currently only focused in modeling and not having scripting feature, so try to get funding from addons is not possible. Only if the program is popular enough If I try to get some returns from training material. I have no control over people use it for commercial or not since there is no water mark in common model files.
If Blender's modeling feature is so awsome as you mentioned. I might be too silly if I still continue this project. As I can see not all people agree with you at this point. It is impossible to tell who's right and who's not as it seems to me personal likings may play a big part in it, left-handed and right-handed people for example.
I will feel like a failure if you can't even create a box without any learning as I thought that most people should be able to do it without a question unless it is that complicated that you want specific orientation and dimentions controlled by snapping...
The cools thing about blender modeling, and what makes it so fast is it's way of hotkeys. In vw you have to:
- press w, e or r to go into transform mode (but no actual transformation happens)
- point you mouse directly over gizmo (center or arrow for constraint); it ofter require to rotate view for clear view of gizmo's arrow and selecting small arrow in not that easy/fast
- click and drag to start move (so 2 previous steps didn't actually do anything, just now we start to deform mesh)
- relase
In blender it is similar but no need to point your mouse over gizmo:
- so pres g,r or s for entering transform mode, you already are moving, scling rotating your model in screen space (no need to click)
- if you want to constraint just tap x,y or z (no need to rotate view to see gizmo from 'better' side)
- right click to cancel, left click to apply transform (no need for ctrl-z)
So while some may say blender hotkeys are weirdly chosen, but it steps are much faster.But obviously blender lack inset, bevel and proper knife, and it is way back in those aras
Actually there is a quicker way to do the transforming operation similar to the demo you described.
Here is my demo
1.create a box.
2.press down w key. from the drop down Instant Help tooltip, you should be able to see the LMB/MMB/RMB tool for this streamline tool.
3.press down LMB and drag to transform. No need to hilghlight the manipulator. (Alternatively, you can use RMB if you want single axis constraint, but you need to drag in a direction that is most parallel the axis you want compare to the other two axis.)
4.Release LMB to accept or Right click to cancel. ( If you are using LMB, hit Escape key for cancel).
Note:
1, if you don't want to see the manipulator, clear the On Activated event function of this streamline tool also make sure all the transform button tools are off.
2. If you assign a transform tool to the NMB function, you will not need to click any mouse button, just press down W key, drag, realse key.
What I feel is I can do more with a hotkey and I don't need to tap x/y/z so I don't have this worry: I may get confused when I try to distinguish x/y/z axis and I may tap the wrong key.
IStonia, wow thanks, It works for scale too. cool, much better and faster imo. And hiding gizmo is no problem, I actually like it to show.
Cool thing is if I hold w, and drag mosue with rmb it constraint to axis, as you said. No need to select gizmo arrow anymore.
I think rotate should constraint to axis with rmb as well, to make it consistent.
ya im not sure why the other guy couldn't figure out how to make primitives right away seems obvious since there is a create menu, and it can be done with a marking menu similar to maya for maya users too.
thanks for taking a look into performance for the coming weeks/months, i know that can be a big job.
also a minar thing is it possible to get a gradient background colour for the viewport, i find it is easer to pick out shape silhouettes on one, and it's just something i just grown accustomed to on maya over the years.
in vw you can add a box either through the top menu (Create>primitives) or through the rmb-menu.
In blender, you press shift-a to get a menu(space in previous versions), or the 'Add' menu up top.
Not exactly a world of difference. Not sure why Mortalhuman was so confused, or why he felt the need to weigh in with the classic 'I couldn't even do X without trying'.
You can indeed move things without using the gizmos, as Istonia mentions. I should know because I requested it
I'm a big fan of Gizmo-less transformations as in Wings/Blender.
While I like the mmb-constraining in Blender though, I'm not a big fan of the xyz shortcut keys, since y is clearly not in an ideal spot. I think this is a big problem with their shortcuts anyway, there's only so much you can do by assigning tools to the first letter of their name. Personally I much prefer the way vw does it, which bundles thematically related tools under one hotkey, and consistently uses the lefthand side of the keyboard.
Same thing with Blender's grs shortcuts. And even then, they renamed move to grab because the m was so far away (the tool is even called move internally, if I'm not mistaken).
@MightyPea aggreed, i always found the Y constraint a pain in the ass to hit, i also prefer VW's way of doing orthograhpic views, using shift+space to snap to the closnet 2d view of where you camara is setup is faster than having to use the numpad or going into a quad-view and focus the one you want.
also i think blender is considered to be more key orientated since it forces you to use keys, when in reality most keys are bound to popup menus, like the W and control+V,F,E menus and control+tab when most things in in Vw Silo Max and other 3d packages can be done via keys or GUI and in most cases people redo there own keys anyways.
I didn't knew about shift space. That is usefull.
I will be doing some modeling, and probably adding found bugs here:
a) when using tools that have preview, eg. inset, bevel clicking apply on 'visual tool' palett won't work. I need to click apply, on popup.
b) when creating box, or other primitive, mouse scroll won't zoom in/out. It just swithes snapping modes for me. When I apply mesh scorll works ok.
c) selecting with mmb problem (kinda random), when I have selected one polygon, and then use mmb to select few more polygons, selection get lost/unselected. Happens usually when I drag with mmb over previously selected polygon.
I didn't knew about shift space. That is usefull.
I will be doing some modeling, and probably adding found bugs here:
a) when using tools that have preview, eg. inset, bevel clicking apply on 'visual tool' palett won't work. I need to click apply, on popup.
b) when creating box, or other primitive, mouse scroll won't zoom in/out. It just swithes snapping modes for me. When I apply mesh scorll works ok.
for your 2nd problem does alt+scrolling still work.
cause why you explained sounds more like a feature than a bug considering im pretty sure alt+rmb and alt+scroll still work in creation mode.
and for problem 1 which i never came across since i do everything via keys and never even seen a pallet for tools till i tested it, you can just press "q" which is the same as applying, the q key in VW works like Maya, it puts it in selection mode and backs you out of any tool you got active.
alt+scroll works. Thanks. But it is weird feature that scrool stuck to swithing snapping mode, even if I turn snap off.
About a) it is small thing, q wont work. It is just that there is apply button that is kinda off. Not huge deal.
ya i actuly never use scroll to zoom always use alt+rmb so i never noticed, and though it could be a feature since enabling/disabling snapping and change the mode can be usefull when trying to place a object
JoseConseco:
The Apply button in extrude/inset/chamfer visual tools is used to create extrusion by the value in the input field. If that input value is zero, a dialog will appear to make sure you won't create a zero extrusion by mistake.
The snapping option changing can be usefull in primitive creation. e.g. use grid snap to create the base of a box then change to vertex snap to make the box have the the same height as a nearby cylinder. I will do some changes so WMB zoom as usual and Alt + WMB will change snapping option, just a swap.
Shift+Space is suggested by Elte, it is actually a view toggle tool. If you use image planes for background reference image holding, you may find it more convenient if you change the key setting to just Space. Also there is an alternative way, Alt+LMB rotate the view and while Alt and LMB still down hit Shift key. This method is suggeted by Pior.
When you find something cool or usefull, it could be my humble invention, but in most of cases it will be someone's contribution up along this thread somewhere.
I still can make a rough list of that from my fading memory whithout searching back in the thread.
Elte -visual primitive creation.
PolyHertz -selection preview, modify preview.
r_fretch_r -the early forming of streamline tool, selection focusing view rotation.
BeatKitano -radial menu, unit setup.
Greg3D -edge/vertex base smooth group control.
CheeseOnToast -Redirect modify hotkey
ghib -the full potential of streamline tools.
polyxo -3D-Coat applink.
MightyPea - stepping transform.
thedaemon -crease subdivision.
rooster -snapping control in primitive creation.
passerby -realtime modify value presentation.
...
...
...
Wow that list goes long.
About snapping I get your point, but when someone have snapping disabled and scroll swiches snapping mode, it makes no sens imo. I also would like to make feature requests:
- merge scene -> I would like to rename it to import object, cos that is what it does, and would be more standard way co call it that way.
- also it would be cool to have list of last opened files under file menu.
- and last - ctrl+d context sensitive (for face, mesh, object), for duplication of selection
As it seems voidword is going to be a paid software. I want to know if I can use one of these WIP versions to complete my "dominance war" challenge entry? it sould be fun and easy (and unfortunately little bit slow in performance) to do retopology using voidworld..
PS. I decided to do my entry all by using free applications.. yet I hope to find voidworld to be free for personal use.
As it seems voidword is going to be a paid software. I want to know if I can use one of these WIP versions to complete my "dominance war" challenge entry? it sould be fun and easy (and unfortunately little bit slow in performance) to do retopology using voidworld..
PS. I decided to do my entry all by using free applications.. yet I hope to find voidworld to be free for personal use.
i think someone already asked, i dont believe istonia cares how the beta's used(commercial/private use), but you might want the official word on that.
Istonia, there seems to be something screwy going on with rotation in the viewport. I was under the impression that it should work like this if 'interest point tumbling' is on:
rotate around contact point of object surface under mouse
if rotating outside mesh use current selection (including subobject selection)
if nothing selected rotate around origin of world
At the moment it will sometimes rotate around selected object but a lot of the time it seems to use the world origin or some arbitrary point. I'm not sure if it's related to Set View Focusing & Selection Focussing.
Istonia, there seems to be something screwy going on with rotation in the viewport. I was under the impression that it should work like this if 'interest point tumbling' is on:
rotate around contact point of object surface under mouse
if rotating outside mesh use current selection (including subobject selection)
if nothing selected rotate around origin of world
At the moment it will sometimes rotate around selected object but a lot of the time it seems to use the world origin or some arbitrary point. I'm not sure if it's related to Set View Focusing & Selection Focussing.
cheers
Em, just to butt in here: if you add this IStonia, please make it an option. It's how silo works and I hate it :P. I hugely prefer the 'invisible camera focus point' method
rooster could you explain the 'invisible camera focus point' please. Also I think the interest point tumbling is already an option.
instead of it always being stuck on a object or element it stays where you put it.
if you select something and hit F6 it will zoom in and make that object the pivot for the camara.
similar to hitting f in maya.
F6 sets the pivot to the selection and zooms in F7 sets the pivot and zooms so all is visible.
how it works now is my prefered interaction for that since i really didnt like how it was always set to your selection in Silo, which made it hard to work zoom in really far.
yeah, it's basically like you have a targeted camera, and the target is where the camera points at/rotates around. so if you pan left, the target moves left with the camera. f6 aligns the target to your object, but you can still move the target off the object by panning (probably the cause of your frustration)
It's completely a personal preference though. I get annoyed in silo, because if I've got the camera centered on an object and do some work on verts, I still want to be able to spin round the model not the verts I'm editing. Or spin around the head not the center of the model. I find it more free to have the camera target wherever I move it, and if I need to have it centered on an object use the focus command
If Blender's modeling feature is so awsome as you mentioned. I might be too silly if I still continue this project. As I can see not all people agree with you at this point. It is impossible to tell who's right and who's not as it seems to me personal likings may play a big part in it, left-handed and right-handed people for example.
I will feel like a failure if you can't even create a box without any learning as I thought that most people should be able to do it without a question unless it is that complicated that you want specific orientation and dimentions controlled by snapping...
Nah, you should keep going. For these reasons: One, you already have a supportive budding userbase, and two, that is the age old question of all 3D software: Which is better - when at the end of the day, it comes to preference. I like blender, I like max, I would prolly like your program if I could come to grips with it, and prolly will over time as it becomes more accessible and more tuts and stuff exist for it - other people hate blender, hate max, only like maya and zbrush, but may also like your app. It's a preferences thing, it's good to offer another option like you have there.
As for making a box, I need to try it more, and get an idea of what you have going on in there, it was complicated to my eyes that are already set in other ways - but this kind of software is always like that.
Mortal : seriously ?
VV is clearly made for the Max/Maya/Silo/Modo audience. Basically, programs relying on hotkeys and marking menus.
Just press right click, and look around a little.
also things like creating a box are in the marking menu just like maya, but there is also a create menu which a lot of 3d packages have and use for primitives.
im not sure i really get the point of needing tuts directed at VW since any technique you learn can be applied to pretty much any 3d package anyways.
and just spend a hour with the app and rebind some keys to your likeing, which you should do with any app.
passerby, Rooster - Thanks for the explanation. You're totally right about giving users options as there are loads of methods for navigating around our models. I think the topic definitely deserves some discussion though. I merely brought it up because I was getting frustrated with the rotation point jumping back to the Origin everytime I was 'off the mesh'. My (quickly thought out) idea was to try and get some layering with the viewport navigation, lowest local level right up to world origin.
I personally prefer the 'use current pick point' (Interest Point tumbling) because it's fairly transparent as you work; no need to make a selection & press a key to focus. It keeps you in the rough region that you're working on.
I wonder if there would be a way to have the various methods work together.
One way could be (if Interest Point tumbling is on):
Rotate around interest point if mouse is over the surface of the mesh
Rotate around last interest point if mouse is off the mesh.
Rotate around invisible camera focus point if selection has been made and F6/7 has been pressed & mouse is off the mesh.
Whatever happens the last thing the camera should do is make a huge jump away from the area of interest that you're working on.
One more thing that I quite like from using Mudbox loads is without having anything selected; hovering over the mesh and pressing F will jump to and zoom in to that point. The level of zoom is dictated by the size of your brush. It works quite well when you get used to it. Also zoom speed scales depending on the distance from the surface of the mesh. This stops the mad zoom speed at close quarters.
Got up with projects, but hey I tried the 'new' VW, with a mix of like and hate.
Consider this as a feedback from refreshed user.
The new UI layout is nice that you can have ability to rearrange anywhere in the app. However, for new users that just got started with this app will feel a little intimidated by lots of buttons on the top, right, and bottom, PLUS the streamline on the left. I'd wonder if we can simplify this buttons to just essential stuffs.
VW in this phase is just a modeling program, but judging from its layout seems more like a complete package. I'd still prefer silo minimal UI but easy to learn and adapt. Please note that not everyone have the luxury of working in 23" or larger display, some still work with 19" or 21" with lower resolution. I have no problem working in 23' at work but when I got home and fire up this app in 21' everything seems so packed up.
Sorry for ranting, but here's my opinion..
Simple is better.
Well i'm amazed by how quick i was up and running... Maybe it's because the ui looks like 3ds max and i have a max background. And since i want to abandon autodesk out of my workflow. i have tried a few other modeling apps. And nothing was so easy to learn as this. But this program still needs some polishing and futures so i will stick to max for a while.
BTW Istonia...
Why don't you add some kind of "issue and future request" form in the program instead of posting it to the forum...
And i found a issue: When i select a textbox to enter a value and i my cursor enters the viewport the textbox loses focus and changes to value....
(btw this happens when i'm in edit mode)
@elit well you got full control over what shows in the toolbar and can just remove redundant things.
and not everyone will be using the visualtool and have the menubar and have there streamline hints visble
thats the way i keep it setup and the only time i open one of the the other tool shelfs is when i need to edit a material or light.
edit though i would like your changes to make the bottom shelf thinner since it does waste a lot of screen space off to the right, and is used enough that it would be cumbersome to show and hide all the time.
and is it possible to get symmetry to work somewhat like it does in silo.
in silo it is possible to toggle off symmetry and add extra geometry to one side of the mirror than turn symmetry back on and symmetry still works.
in VW it is possible to turn symmetry off and make tweaks to existing geo on one side and re-enable it and still have symmetry working on the components you didn't tweak, and it jumps things to be symmetrical if you edit one that you tweaked but if you add more geo to one side it just messes it up and kills symmetry all together.
i do realize that this would prolly be a hard bit of logic to write but it was a feature i really liked from silo, and from what the fanboys tell me Modo can do the same thing, though i have never used modo so i don't know for sure.
I bound all these to hotkeys so they're in a neat line on the keyboard:
x axis 8 y axis 9 z axis 0 show symmetry plane - cycle symmetry axis =
One suggestion I would give to Istonia is that when you press the keys for each axis it would flash up temporarily what that the axis is. At the moment if Symmetry has been calculated you have to make an educated guess as to which axis you're about to commit.
I brought up the subject of a siloesque non-destructive symmetry calculation in this post. I haven't given proper feedback and bugreport for Istonia's implementation yet as it doesn't quite work right.
To calculate symmetry do this:
Select 2 vertices
Modify > Calculate symmetry from Two Vertices.
*edit* Actually reading back over portions of this thread is like an archaeological dig, I wonder if a lot of suggestions and bug reports get lost. I can imagine it's a bit of a headache for Istonia to keep on top of it all. Is there a better way to keep everything together in some sort of checklist of things to look into? I know that those 3DCoat guys use the online web based Mantis bug tracking. Andrew seems to really appreciate testers using that. Just a thought.
thanks for the notes, i just stared doing the calc with the 2 verts since i don't always want to cut down the middle first.
and for bug tracking i could setup something like bugzilla or a other bug tracker, on one of my servers, or could see if IStonia current webspace can support it.
Summary of changes:
* Documentation is updated. Help > Contents.
* In primitive creation, WMB = zoom and Alt+WMB = snap-option- cycling.
* After File > Merge Scene, a dialog will show up for option to replace the current filename.
* File > Recent Files
* Gradient background. Edit > Preference > Form Color Scheme > Viewport Color1/2.
* "Interest Point Tumbling" view navigation is improved.
* One more view rotation pivot style is added. View > View Rotation Pivot Style > Camera Point Tumbling. More detail can be found in Help > Contents > User Interface > View Navigation Scheme > Use Mouse > Rotation Pivot STyle.
* X ray button is added into viewport buttons.
Thanks!
JoseConseco: Don't understand what's the problem in mmb selection. mmb drag is paint selection by default.
ctrl+d is context sensitive already. Do you mean it should not be context sensitive?
omid3098: You can use the WIP versions in any purpose.
I have do some snapping improvement. Please let me know if it's getting better or not.
mortalhuman: There is a tutorial in the online book, Help > Tutorials. Hope that helps.
elte: Welcome back mate! How's Mars? I bet it must be chili hot as I have to explain myself a bit now. hehe.
>Agree people may feel intimidated if the ui is too complicated. But the ui can be simplified by customizing, and if the ui is too simple at startup things may get worse. Try to dig through the documentation? 50 pages or more. Try to find tuts? The programe is too new.
>The undo/redon showup in SmartTip is neccessary. New 3D users may not have ctr+Z/ctrl+Y in mind and even it can be different in other apps, e.g. ctrl+shift+z for redo in silo. ALSO, YOU CAN REMOVE IT FROM SMARTTIPS VIA HOTKEY EDITOR, EDIT > CUSTOMIZE TOOLS > UNCHECK THE SHOW IN SMARTTIPS OPTION.
>There is no 1 on 1 mapping between Visual tools and streamline tools, so I don't link the hotkeys between them. But you can use the streamline tool's Tapped event to open a visual tool.
>I will and a Vertex-Chamfer visual tool.
>I will see if I can thinner the Manipulat Panel.
mmwizard: Good to know that you found VW easy to learn. Is it easy to use? If you use the visual tool, it's similar to Max.But if you use the streamline tool, the work flow should be better.
In the design, if you change something, a digit value or a name, you can hit Enter key or move the cursor into scene to let the changes take effect. Why does that bother you?
I don't know what's the best way to collect feedbacks. So far it works alright using the forum thread.
Honestly I can't believe you guys haven't been scouted yet, your group would be perfect to hire as "freelancing" developer power and I think that VW can become big in the future.
I was quite surprised when I downloaded the software and right out of the box it just worked perfectly, no unexpected behaviors and no slowdowns, nowadays I always have notepad up for quick bug reporting whenever I try a new app but this time I didn't need it The only thing I have problems with is importing which doesn't always work.
NinthJake: If you can give the file which can't import properly I may be able to fix it. When I did the importing implementation, I had very few sample files.
nabeelaejaz: Glad you love it. me too.
mald: I have no idea how that happen. One thing you can do is to open this help file manually. App folder > Help > VoidWorld 2.4 Help.chm.
Does it work on those older updates??? There is some changes in this update.
I have tried to open the help file manually as suggested but I still get the same messages. In previous versions I have sometimes been able to access the help file from the program and at other times not. I have raised the query now because you have indicated there are some new changes to the documentation. Would it be possible to have a separate manual file(say in .pdf format) for downloading?
mald: Currently can't afford to take time for another help file format.
Maybe it is the internet expolorer you are using. Is it possible you can install different IEs and choose between them?
It's okay - I know you will be busy with VoidWorld programming. I have managed to download a chm file converter which converted the help file to htm so I can read the documentation now. It's a bit inconvenient as I can't access help from within the program but it's better than not being able to access the info at all.
BTW, I tried also using Google Chrome with the help file but I got the same error messages.
Thanks for your help. In spite of this problem, I still enjoy using your program and look forward to future developments.
i noticed a little bug with the double click loop select and double click right select.
if your just selecting 1 loop or ring it works as expected, but if you try to loop select multiple rings or loops by holding shift and doable clicking edges, on all but the first selection, it will select the loop than de-select the edge you doable clicked.
not a huge problem but it does add some more clicks having to reselect 1 edge on every loop you try to add to the selection.
I feel the slicing tool is really slowing down my flow a bit for now. Arranging the plane and all. Is there a way to get a loop slice and cut on the fly like in Blender or Modo, because this speeds up the modelling process a lot.
passerby: I don't have the problem on muliti-loop edge selection as you described.
Can you do this test:
1. create a sphere.
2. goto edge mode.
3. double click to select one edge loop.
4. press down and hold Shift key.
5. double click to select another edge loop.
6. choose menu 'Edit > Show Undo Stack'. There should be 4 'Edge selection' on top of the stack. In your case, it seems it may be 5, the fifth one is a deselect action.
nabeelaejaz: There are two slice functions in the streamline Cut tool C. Drag LMB from empty space to slice, Drag RMB to slice and split.
Also you can do quick slice in the visuall slice tool by press down X key and drag LMB.
passerby, RE: Shift double click loop select. I get the same result but only if I hold Ctrl Shift and double click. Full loop minus the edge I double clicked on.
All works well if just Shift is held down. Is it possible there is some setting somewhere where you have swapped the selection behaviour around or with one of the presets.
Replies
Paid addons are great funding for a program with limitless install base out of all interested people since it's free with options for commercial licenses. See what I'm saying there? Scripting may be covered, but that is like, expected. I'm talking about products that compliment this, the gateway app.
It was just a loose off the top set of things to consider.
Training material + paid add ons as a set of options for people who install and use the free program is big bucks for a new market that really "one shot sales" are not enough to stay afloat in anyway.
Unreal is free, unity uses a free model, autodesk is free for students, blender is free and more popular than ever, lots of other free engines. All of them making big bucks with training material or add ons or both. the reasoning for it is because the market is changed and now you gotta gain a userbase THEN sell them things, because you don't make enough money selling someone one-off anymore. I mean, this is all throughout the entire market, all the way into end user dlc lol.
It's like, he can make more money teaching people how to use it + making a market for add ons when million people install his application and then 100 thousand of them buy something 1 time than he ever will make selling the program to 1 out of every 100 who ever takes the plunge and buys it.
And people do not like demos anymore :P Unity is so ugly with it's limited offering, and I've already been told from the previous post I made in a PM it's so true about unity, why bother with it, UDK is unlimited. Why bother with anything when .edu email = free autodesk and blender is now awesome and has always been free.
Enter the market free, can't go wrong with information technology like this, you can make so much money on the side with the addons and training material, and create professions for your advanced users who train and make add ons as well.
Sell for installation instead of money is the motive behind what I'm talking about here, because it opens a doorway to a much more versatile shop to setup than just "the program itself, one time". Instead, it could be free to use with a whole bungaload of add ons and training material that rakes in $$ multiple times from multiple happy to pay pleased users of the software.
fwiw, that's all.
mmwizard: The program is built and runs upon directx and .net frame work. It these two things can be installed into Mac, it may be possible for VW to run in Mac if I can find replacements for some codes which use Window's API directly like keyboard hooking.
passerby: The performance is a big concern. I am currently updating the documentation. Once finish that, I will look into the performance issue. I have some ideas but not sure it will work or not. May take a couple of weeks as the data structure will be changed that leads to changes every where across the whole program.
mortalhuman: Thanks for such detailed advice!
It seems to me the funding model you described isn't pratical for this propram at its current stage. VW currently only focused in modeling and not having scripting feature, so try to get funding from addons is not possible. Only if the program is popular enough If I try to get some returns from training material. I have no control over people use it for commercial or not since there is no water mark in common model files.
If Blender's modeling feature is so awsome as you mentioned. I might be too silly if I still continue this project. As I can see not all people agree with you at this point. It is impossible to tell who's right and who's not as it seems to me personal likings may play a big part in it, left-handed and right-handed people for example.
I will feel like a failure if you can't even create a box without any learning as I thought that most people should be able to do it without a question unless it is that complicated that you want specific orientation and dimentions controlled by snapping...
- press w, e or r to go into transform mode (but no actual transformation happens)
- point you mouse directly over gizmo (center or arrow for constraint); it ofter require to rotate view for clear view of gizmo's arrow and selecting small arrow in not that easy/fast
- click and drag to start move (so 2 previous steps didn't actually do anything, just now we start to deform mesh)
- relase
In blender it is similar but no need to point your mouse over gizmo:
- so pres g,r or s for entering transform mode, you already are moving, scling rotating your model in screen space (no need to click)
- if you want to constraint just tap x,y or z (no need to rotate view to see gizmo from 'better' side)
- right click to cancel, left click to apply transform (no need for ctrl-z)
So while some may say blender hotkeys are weirdly chosen, but it steps are much faster.But obviously blender lack inset, bevel and proper knife, and it is way back in those aras
Actually there is a quicker way to do the transforming operation similar to the demo you described.
Here is my demo
1.create a box.
2.press down w key. from the drop down Instant Help tooltip, you should be able to see the LMB/MMB/RMB tool for this streamline tool.
3.press down LMB and drag to transform. No need to hilghlight the manipulator. (Alternatively, you can use RMB if you want single axis constraint, but you need to drag in a direction that is most parallel the axis you want compare to the other two axis.)
4.Release LMB to accept or Right click to cancel. ( If you are using LMB, hit Escape key for cancel).
Note:
1, if you don't want to see the manipulator, clear the On Activated event function of this streamline tool also make sure all the transform button tools are off.
2. If you assign a transform tool to the NMB function, you will not need to click any mouse button, just press down W key, drag, realse key.
What I feel is I can do more with a hotkey and I don't need to tap x/y/z so I don't have this worry: I may get confused when I try to distinguish x/y/z axis and I may tap the wrong key.
Cool thing is if I hold w, and drag mosue with rmb it constraint to axis, as you said. No need to select gizmo arrow anymore.
I think rotate should constraint to axis with rmb as well, to make it consistent.
thanks for taking a look into performance for the coming weeks/months, i know that can be a big job.
also a minar thing is it possible to get a gradient background colour for the viewport, i find it is easer to pick out shape silhouettes on one, and it's just something i just grown accustomed to on maya over the years.
in vw you can add a box either through the top menu (Create>primitives) or through the rmb-menu.
In blender, you press shift-a to get a menu(space in previous versions), or the 'Add' menu up top.
Not exactly a world of difference. Not sure why Mortalhuman was so confused, or why he felt the need to weigh in with the classic 'I couldn't even do X without trying'.
You can indeed move things without using the gizmos, as Istonia mentions. I should know because I requested it
I'm a big fan of Gizmo-less transformations as in Wings/Blender.
While I like the mmb-constraining in Blender though, I'm not a big fan of the xyz shortcut keys, since y is clearly not in an ideal spot. I think this is a big problem with their shortcuts anyway, there's only so much you can do by assigning tools to the first letter of their name. Personally I much prefer the way vw does it, which bundles thematically related tools under one hotkey, and consistently uses the lefthand side of the keyboard.
Same thing with Blender's grs shortcuts. And even then, they renamed move to grab because the m was so far away (the tool is even called move internally, if I'm not mistaken).
also i think blender is considered to be more key orientated since it forces you to use keys, when in reality most keys are bound to popup menus, like the W and control+V,F,E menus and control+tab when most things in in Vw Silo Max and other 3d packages can be done via keys or GUI and in most cases people redo there own keys anyways.
I will be doing some modeling, and probably adding found bugs here:
a) when using tools that have preview, eg. inset, bevel clicking apply on 'visual tool' palett won't work. I need to click apply, on popup.
b) when creating box, or other primitive, mouse scroll won't zoom in/out. It just swithes snapping modes for me. When I apply mesh scorll works ok.
c) selecting with mmb problem (kinda random), when I have selected one polygon, and then use mmb to select few more polygons, selection get lost/unselected. Happens usually when I drag with mmb over previously selected polygon.
for your 2nd problem does alt+scrolling still work.
cause why you explained sounds more like a feature than a bug considering im pretty sure alt+rmb and alt+scroll still work in creation mode.
and for problem 1 which i never came across since i do everything via keys and never even seen a pallet for tools till i tested it, you can just press "q" which is the same as applying, the q key in VW works like Maya, it puts it in selection mode and backs you out of any tool you got active.
About a) it is small thing, q wont work. It is just that there is apply button that is kinda off. Not huge deal.
The Apply button in extrude/inset/chamfer visual tools is used to create extrusion by the value in the input field. If that input value is zero, a dialog will appear to make sure you won't create a zero extrusion by mistake.
The snapping option changing can be usefull in primitive creation. e.g. use grid snap to create the base of a box then change to vertex snap to make the box have the the same height as a nearby cylinder. I will do some changes so WMB zoom as usual and Alt + WMB will change snapping option, just a swap.
Shift+Space is suggested by Elte, it is actually a view toggle tool. If you use image planes for background reference image holding, you may find it more convenient if you change the key setting to just Space. Also there is an alternative way, Alt+LMB rotate the view and while Alt and LMB still down hit Shift key. This method is suggeted by Pior.
When you find something cool or usefull, it could be my humble invention, but in most of cases it will be someone's contribution up along this thread somewhere.
I still can make a rough list of that from my fading memory whithout searching back in the thread.
Elte -visual primitive creation.
PolyHertz -selection preview, modify preview.
r_fretch_r -the early forming of streamline tool, selection focusing view rotation.
BeatKitano -radial menu, unit setup.
Greg3D -edge/vertex base smooth group control.
CheeseOnToast -Redirect modify hotkey
ghib -the full potential of streamline tools.
polyxo -3D-Coat applink.
MightyPea - stepping transform.
thedaemon -crease subdivision.
rooster -snapping control in primitive creation.
passerby -realtime modify value presentation.
...
...
...
About snapping I get your point, but when someone have snapping disabled and scroll swiches snapping mode, it makes no sens imo. I also would like to make feature requests:
- merge scene -> I would like to rename it to import object, cos that is what it does, and would be more standard way co call it that way.
- also it would be cool to have list of last opened files under file menu.
- and last - ctrl+d context sensitive (for face, mesh, object), for duplication of selection
PS. I decided to do my entry all by using free applications.. yet I hope to find voidworld to be free for personal use.
i think someone already asked, i dont believe istonia cares how the beta's used(commercial/private use), but you might want the official word on that.
At the moment it will sometimes rotate around selected object but a lot of the time it seems to use the world origin or some arbitrary point. I'm not sure if it's related to Set View Focusing & Selection Focussing.
cheers
Is there a 'Thicken' or 'Solidify' function in here yet? Thanks.
ya it's called shell just go into mesh mode select a mesh and grab it from the tools menu of the main marking menu.
Em, just to butt in here: if you add this IStonia, please make it an option. It's how silo works and I hate it :P. I hugely prefer the 'invisible camera focus point' method
instead of it always being stuck on a object or element it stays where you put it.
if you select something and hit F6 it will zoom in and make that object the pivot for the camara.
similar to hitting f in maya.
F6 sets the pivot to the selection and zooms in F7 sets the pivot and zooms so all is visible.
how it works now is my prefered interaction for that since i really didnt like how it was always set to your selection in Silo, which made it hard to work zoom in really far.
It's completely a personal preference though. I get annoyed in silo, because if I've got the camera centered on an object and do some work on verts, I still want to be able to spin round the model not the verts I'm editing. Or spin around the head not the center of the model. I find it more free to have the camera target wherever I move it, and if I need to have it centered on an object use the focus command
Nah, you should keep going. For these reasons: One, you already have a supportive budding userbase, and two, that is the age old question of all 3D software: Which is better - when at the end of the day, it comes to preference. I like blender, I like max, I would prolly like your program if I could come to grips with it, and prolly will over time as it becomes more accessible and more tuts and stuff exist for it - other people hate blender, hate max, only like maya and zbrush, but may also like your app. It's a preferences thing, it's good to offer another option like you have there.
As for making a box, I need to try it more, and get an idea of what you have going on in there, it was complicated to my eyes that are already set in other ways - but this kind of software is always like that.
VV is clearly made for the Max/Maya/Silo/Modo audience. Basically, programs relying on hotkeys and marking menus.
Just press right click, and look around a little.
As for a help file :
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74005
Tadaaa!
im not sure i really get the point of needing tuts directed at VW since any technique you learn can be applied to pretty much any 3d package anyways.
and just spend a hour with the app and rebind some keys to your likeing, which you should do with any app.
I personally prefer the 'use current pick point' (Interest Point tumbling) because it's fairly transparent as you work; no need to make a selection & press a key to focus. It keeps you in the rough region that you're working on.
I wonder if there would be a way to have the various methods work together.
One way could be (if Interest Point tumbling is on):
Whatever happens the last thing the camera should do is make a huge jump away from the area of interest that you're working on.
One more thing that I quite like from using Mudbox loads is without having anything selected; hovering over the mesh and pressing F will jump to and zoom in to that point. The level of zoom is dictated by the size of your brush. It works quite well when you get used to it. Also zoom speed scales depending on the distance from the surface of the mesh. This stops the mad zoom speed at close quarters.
Got up with projects, but hey I tried the 'new' VW, with a mix of like and hate.
Consider this as a feedback from refreshed user.
The new UI layout is nice that you can have ability to rearrange anywhere in the app. However, for new users that just got started with this app will feel a little intimidated by lots of buttons on the top, right, and bottom, PLUS the streamline on the left. I'd wonder if we can simplify this buttons to just essential stuffs.
VW in this phase is just a modeling program, but judging from its layout seems more like a complete package. I'd still prefer silo minimal UI but easy to learn and adapt. Please note that not everyone have the luxury of working in 23" or larger display, some still work with 19" or 21" with lower resolution. I have no problem working in 23' at work but when I got home and fire up this app in 21' everything seems so packed up.
Sorry for ranting, but here's my opinion..
Simple is better.
BTW Istonia...
Why don't you add some kind of "issue and future request" form in the program instead of posting it to the forum...
And i found a issue: When i select a textbox to enter a value and i my cursor enters the viewport the textbox loses focus and changes to value....
(btw this happens when i'm in edit mode)
and not everyone will be using the visualtool and have the menubar and have there streamline hints visble
thats the way i keep it setup and the only time i open one of the the other tool shelfs is when i need to edit a material or light.
edit though i would like your changes to make the bottom shelf thinner since it does waste a lot of screen space off to the right, and is used enough that it would be cumbersome to show and hide all the time.
and is it possible to get symmetry to work somewhat like it does in silo.
in silo it is possible to toggle off symmetry and add extra geometry to one side of the mirror than turn symmetry back on and symmetry still works.
in VW it is possible to turn symmetry off and make tweaks to existing geo on one side and re-enable it and still have symmetry working on the components you didn't tweak, and it jumps things to be symmetrical if you edit one that you tweaked but if you add more geo to one side it just messes it up and kills symmetry all together.
i do realize that this would prolly be a hard bit of logic to write but it was a feature i really liked from silo, and from what the fanboys tell me Modo can do the same thing, though i have never used modo so i don't know for sure.
I bound all these to hotkeys so they're in a neat line on the keyboard:
x axis 8
y axis 9
z axis 0
show symmetry plane -
cycle symmetry axis =
One suggestion I would give to Istonia is that when you press the keys for each axis it would flash up temporarily what that the axis is. At the moment if Symmetry has been calculated you have to make an educated guess as to which axis you're about to commit.
I brought up the subject of a siloesque non-destructive symmetry calculation in this post. I haven't given proper feedback and bugreport for Istonia's implementation yet as it doesn't quite work right.
To calculate symmetry do this:
*edit* Actually reading back over portions of this thread is like an archaeological dig, I wonder if a lot of suggestions and bug reports get lost. I can imagine it's a bit of a headache for Istonia to keep on top of it all. Is there a better way to keep everything together in some sort of checklist of things to look into? I know that those 3DCoat guys use the online web based Mantis bug tracking. Andrew seems to really appreciate testers using that. Just a thought.
thanks for the notes, i just stared doing the calc with the 2 verts since i don't always want to cut down the middle first.
and for bug tracking i could setup something like bugzilla or a other bug tracker, on one of my servers, or could see if IStonia current webspace can support it.
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/VoidWorld-may-29-11.rar
Summary of changes:
* Documentation is updated. Help > Contents.
* In primitive creation, WMB = zoom and Alt+WMB = snap-option- cycling.
* After File > Merge Scene, a dialog will show up for option to replace the current filename.
* File > Recent Files
* Gradient background. Edit > Preference > Form Color Scheme > Viewport Color1/2.
* "Interest Point Tumbling" view navigation is improved.
* One more view rotation pivot style is added. View > View Rotation Pivot Style > Camera Point Tumbling. More detail can be found in Help > Contents > User Interface > View Navigation Scheme > Use Mouse > Rotation Pivot STyle.
* X ray button is added into viewport buttons.
Thanks!
JoseConseco: Don't understand what's the problem in mmb selection. mmb drag is paint selection by default.
ctrl+d is context sensitive already. Do you mean it should not be context sensitive?
omid3098: You can use the WIP versions in any purpose.
I have do some snapping improvement. Please let me know if it's getting better or not.
mortalhuman: There is a tutorial in the online book, Help > Tutorials. Hope that helps.
elte: Welcome back mate! How's Mars? I bet it must be chili hot as I have to explain myself a bit now. hehe.
>Agree people may feel intimidated if the ui is too complicated. But the ui can be simplified by customizing, and if the ui is too simple at startup things may get worse. Try to dig through the documentation? 50 pages or more. Try to find tuts? The programe is too new.
>The undo/redon showup in SmartTip is neccessary. New 3D users may not have ctr+Z/ctrl+Y in mind and even it can be different in other apps, e.g. ctrl+shift+z for redo in silo. ALSO, YOU CAN REMOVE IT FROM SMARTTIPS VIA HOTKEY EDITOR, EDIT > CUSTOMIZE TOOLS > UNCHECK THE SHOW IN SMARTTIPS OPTION.
>There is no 1 on 1 mapping between Visual tools and streamline tools, so I don't link the hotkeys between them. But you can use the streamline tool's Tapped event to open a visual tool.
>I will and a Vertex-Chamfer visual tool.
>I will see if I can thinner the Manipulat Panel.
mmwizard: Good to know that you found VW easy to learn. Is it easy to use? If you use the visual tool, it's similar to Max.But if you use the streamline tool, the work flow should be better.
In the design, if you change something, a digit value or a name, you can hit Enter key or move the cursor into scene to let the changes take effect. Why does that bother you?
I don't know what's the best way to collect feedbacks. So far it works alright using the forum thread.
passerby: There is also a Calculate Symmetry visual tool in vertex mode.
Contact MightyPea. He has done something already.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WSOsPp-JpYrzULDILaHZjYh12wxVdVCgKv8gMKKyyqY/edit?hl=en&authkey=CK7U2vMN&pli=1#
The problem is each time I visit it I always have to read them all again. It's better if something has been done, remove it.
I was quite surprised when I downloaded the software and right out of the box it just worked perfectly, no unexpected behaviors and no slowdowns, nowadays I always have notepad up for quick bug reporting whenever I try a new app but this time I didn't need it
Whenever I try to access the help file I get an error message "Web navigation is cancelled" or "the address is not valid".
Any thoughts on how I can fix this?
Thanks
Mal
nabeelaejaz: Glad you love it. me too.
mald: I have no idea how that happen. One thing you can do is to open this help file manually. App folder > Help > VoidWorld 2.4 Help.chm.
Does it work on those older updates??? There is some changes in this update.
I have tried to open the help file manually as suggested but I still get the same messages. In previous versions I have sometimes been able to access the help file from the program and at other times not. I have raised the query now because you have indicated there are some new changes to the documentation. Would it be possible to have a separate manual file(say in .pdf format) for downloading?
Thanks for the response.
Cheers
Mal
Maybe it is the internet expolorer you are using. Is it possible you can install different IEs and choose between them?
It's okay - I know you will be busy with VoidWorld programming. I have managed to download a chm file converter which converted the help file to htm so I can read the documentation now. It's a bit inconvenient as I can't access help from within the program but it's better than not being able to access the info at all.
BTW, I tried also using Google Chrome with the help file but I got the same error messages.
Thanks for your help. In spite of this problem, I still enjoy using your program and look forward to future developments.
Cheers
Mal
just right click the chm and reset it to use winhelp32.exe for the application to open it.
if your just selecting 1 loop or ring it works as expected, but if you try to loop select multiple rings or loops by holding shift and doable clicking edges, on all but the first selection, it will select the loop than de-select the edge you doable clicked.
not a huge problem but it does add some more clicks having to reselect 1 edge on every loop you try to add to the selection.
Can you do this test:
1. create a sphere.
2. goto edge mode.
3. double click to select one edge loop.
4. press down and hold Shift key.
5. double click to select another edge loop.
6. choose menu 'Edit > Show Undo Stack'. There should be 4 'Edge selection' on top of the stack. In your case, it seems it may be 5, the fifth one is a deselect action.
nabeelaejaz: There are two slice functions in the streamline Cut tool C. Drag LMB from empty space to slice, Drag RMB to slice and split.
Also you can do quick slice in the visuall slice tool by press down X key and drag LMB.
All works well if just Shift is held down. Is it possible there is some setting somewhere where you have swapped the selection behaviour around or with one of the presets.