A new modeling tool released
VoidWorld Forums: http://voidworld.cmcproductions.co.uk/index.php
http://www.digitalfossils.com
Hi guys
I have recently released a 3d modeling and animation tool. It has no plug-in and script features and the hot-keys can not be customized. But It has intuitive interface and the tools are plenty. Modeling, retopogizing, uv unwraping, normal map baking, vertex coloring, 3D texture painting, skeleton animating etc. Compare to other modeling applications, some of the tools could be new or improved versions to provide more possibilities. For example
The polygon Extrude tool allows creating extrusions manually along cursor directions or a spline.
The Hinge tool has more options.
The Lathe and Slide tool can utilize a number of splines to create meshes with more complex shapes.
The uv Pelt tool automatically selects the longest border as the pulling border when the uv island to be pulled has holes.
The uv Symmetry tool can perform symmetry operation either within one uv island or btw two islands.
The edge Connect tool provides a flexible way to create loop edges.
You are welcom to check it out. Feed backs, criticisms and suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Slide Tool Video
[ame="
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S2kMaR6lcU"]SlideTool.avi - YouTube[/ame]
Bevel Tool Video
[ame="
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VRfbFuiKr8"]Bevel Tool.avi - YouTube[/ame]
http://www.digitalfossils.com
Hi guys
I have recently released a 3d modeling and animation tool. It has no plug-in and script features and the hot-keys can not be customized. But It has intuitive interface and the tools are plenty. Modeling, retopogizing, uv unwraping, normal map baking, vertex coloring, 3D texture painting, skeleton animating etc. Compare to other modeling applications, some of the tools could be new or improved versions to provide more possibilities. For example
The polygon Extrude tool allows creating extrusions manually along cursor directions or a spline.
The Hinge tool has more options.
The Lathe and Slide tool can utilize a number of splines to create meshes with more complex shapes.
The uv Pelt tool automatically selects the longest border as the pulling border when the uv island to be pulled has holes.
The uv Symmetry tool can perform symmetry operation either within one uv island or btw two islands.
The edge Connect tool provides a flexible way to create loop edges.
You are welcom to check it out. Feed backs, criticisms and suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Slide Tool Video
[ame="
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S2kMaR6lcU"]SlideTool.avi - YouTube[/ame]Bevel Tool Video
[ame="
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VRfbFuiKr8"]Bevel Tool.avi - YouTube[/ame]
Replies
Yeah videos would be nice.
My first impression is that this software feels more like a toy.
Not much information provided (screenshot, video, feature).
If most of the features are already in the common used package, I won't bother to give it a try though.
Sorry for being honest.
Yeah, a video showing its features would be better.
When using the various tools (including weld, extrude, bevel/etc) sometimes it freaks out and gives you a wireframe version, and other times it makes the model invisible and all you're left with is this tiny thing at the origin:
This is my opinion, but - I would recommend looking at Silo as an example of a streamlined modeler. It is a very comfortable modeling application not only because it has customizable shortcuts - the tools are context-sensitive and behave in a 'sticky' way. For example, holding the extrude hotkey with an edge selected will immediately begin an extrusion that changes with the movement of the mouse (in a straight line). With a face selected, it will extrude that face; multiple faces get the same, etc. Releasing the key applies the command. It also has an integrated tweak tool that works in most settings, on your selected geometry type with the currently selected tool (translate/rotate/scale); you simply hold down the tweak shortcut and left-click to perform operations.
Silo's primary flaw at this time is crashiness and apparent developmental abandonment. If you can create a stable application that functions as fluidly without dropping development in a crashy/buggy state, your program could potentially become very loved.
Here is a treasure trove of ideas if you truly desire to create an application people will want to use, hope it helps: http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70977
ps: the about page made me laugh
I am working on the video stuff now. I hope I can get it out very soon.
Hi Vrav,
I am not able to reproduce the bug you came across, can you tell me how it happened if you have a spare time.
And by the way, if you press down Alt key then middle click an edge, the whole loop will be selected. To see more options, while in edge mode and no tools is on, click menue "Help">"Show Help on Current Operation" to access the edge simple operation help file.
Thanks for the link, I can see the main point is easy and quick work flow, and different apps use different approachs.
Silo does it so well its ridiculous. I learnt silo in no more than 30 minutes.
I learnt silo in 15 minutes.
Its going to be a requirement before long for software to have no learning curve. I mean so that you dont have to look at a manual to find out what this does and how to do that.
What with ipods and that, its going to be led/provoked by consumers.
An intelligent help system, you ask it how to do something and you get several answers.
An intelligent, tool tip system that fades after use, if your hunting around without clicking on something, then it asks you what you are looking for or brings up the tool tips.
Just my thoughts.
You may want to consider making the program free until you have something that's actually worth being sold, something like what Ryan did with CrazyBump. You could honestly have a great tool here if you only put things in that people need without the unnecessary garbage that large software suites have.
The century old website needs a makeup urgently.
Down to the sreamline modeling work flow. I need to plan it carefully. I will check out other people's ways.
But more importantly, I need you artists' advice, as you are the ones who can tell it is good or not and fresh ideas may jump out of you anytime.
Currently in my thought, tools can be grouped into two groups. the first one are those used less often and they are mode sensitve.
The second group are those most often used and they only perform simple operations like delete/extrude/loopcut/etc. They are context sesitive. The operation performed depands on the under cursor element and hotkey, and is mode independent. These tools are for vertex/edge/polygon only.
Do I get it right?
By the way, I have made two videos. They are in the first post of this thread. The pictures are very foggy, I hope you can tell what I was doing.
Calabi sounds like twice smarter. I may believe in you more than anyone else! lol
With multi-features tools like 3DCoat appearing recently, I see that it could be tempting to try and do the same. However this niche is already taken, and trying to compete in that field would be a huge/near impossible undertaking.
Judging from the videos it seems like your program has a few basics right (the viewport navigation does not try to reinvent the wheel, and so on)
However if you want things to catch on you need to focus on what folks like us are looking for. Wich is, efficient mesh modeling and editing tools. Thats the thing you want to work on, and get up to the level of Silo/Nendo/Mirai. If you manage to top these guys, your stuff will be a success. If not, no one would even consider it.
Things I think you need, in order to appeal to the one specific target audience around here (3d artists in need of a good, clean basemesh to sculpt on later in either ZBrush or Mud) :
- Screen mode manipulation of components
- local, parent, world and user-defined manipulator reference systems
- being able to put and orient the action center anywhere and in any direction (maya fails at this and its a pain)
- being able to convert a selection between verts, edges, faces
- loop and ring selection
- loop slide
- add loop
- connect components
- detach to shell and detach to new object
- push selected along normal direction
- thickness modifier (shell in max)
- bend, ffd, twist
- symetry mode (with and without center weld)
- weld components
- extrude
- inset
- bevel (all these 3 need a decent preview and slider or spinners)
- soft selection with curve adjustement
- flatten selected
- untangle poly (makes a perfect ngon out of an arbitrary ngon)
- straighten edge selection
After that, you could add non destructive modifiers just like max
Also, if you want your app to be a success you NEED customizable navigation scheme and custom shortcuts, available for all of the above.
Good luck!
http://www.nevercenter.com/silo/
Modo is also a good inspiration for some Interface and interaction design.
I read in .net page:
Important: You cannot install two different language versions of the .NET Framework on the same machine. Attempting to install a second language version of the .NET Framework will cause the following error to appear: "Setup cannot install Microsoft .NET Framework because another version of the product is already installed." If you are targeting a non-English platform or if you wish to view .NET Framework resources in a different language, you must download the appropriate language version of the .NET Framework language pack. isn't win7 preloaded with 3.5 already? Will it create conflict?
I agree with Pior and the rest here. Some basic tools are necessary. However the important part is getting them streamlined so the workflow become efficient and get things done faster. Customization is key. Do not introduce new tool that's never or rarely used at this point.
In your video, I saw repetitive vertex/poly selection by hovering and clicking the icon. Isn't that time wasting? Artists deals with these daily and it would efficiently save their time by using hotkey or button closer to cursor instead. 1 2 3 4 is the hotkey they used in max, but if you can make it better/faster than that for example auto highlight and context sensitive, everyone's gonna love it..
Its really nice to see that you as a developer listen to artists as they're the end user that use ur creation. I also gave up Silo although I love it, it's too buggy.
And btw, Your about page is awesome man..
I would suggest wordpress for your website, it's widely used and easier to update the development status, plus there's huge amount of themes/template to customize..
Did I mention customize?
elte: .net language is not a human language, it is a programe runtime language, in other words, it is a machine language. .Different .net versions can run side by side within the same operating system. What it say is the human language version, since each .net version has different human language versions.
.net1.1 preloaded in win 7.
I am using win 7 too, and when I try to install my programe, I still have to download the Microsoft .NET Framework Version 1.1 Redistributable, otherwise I won't be able to. The funny thing is after that, I unsintall the .net1.1 I installed and my programe still runs ok. That's a little bit tricky.
And yes, get the basics right. I find it great that max uses "12345" for vert/line/etc and "wer" for move/rotate/scale. But make the shortkeys customizable too.
Here's another program to check out.
http://www.wings3d.com/
It can only do box modelling and lacks a widget but is very fast workflow. Context sensitive right clicking menus.
A few interesting tools, flatten works really well, and intersect when flatten doesnt work, circularise(but you dont want to be adding, a ton of tools with lots of redundancy, a small group, of core really flexible tools, then perhaps modifiers).
I especially like its vector operations all tools can be manipulated in any direction defined on the model. Although I would prefer a manipulator which you can orient quickly in any direction you want, including defined by the existing geometry or rotated in increments.
A tweak tool.
Lots of selections, select similar every other, half and so on etc.
A UI that doesnt get in the way, I want to see what I'm working on not tons of menus. No icons, if you want to make your ui unfathomable then use icons. If you do use icons then have tooltips that pop up very quickly.
A UI thats intelligent that has an idea of what you are doing and does its best to help. Like you are extruding and you reach the edge of the screen and the view auto zooms out. Your going through a list of selections it prehighlights what those selections will be.
Modular focused workflow, instead of the clutter of everything available at all times. Like Carrara, Wings3D, 3DCoat, you have rooms like painting, sculpting, rendering, animation.
If your looking to improve artists workflow, you should watch them work. Dont always rely on what people say, they lie, or dont know, or say what they mean.
I built a StreamLine Engein and a SmartTips System. I also made it customizable for both the view tools and modeling tools.
You can get the free version from here http://digitalfossils.com/Downloads.aspx
Hopefully I am in the right direction.
[ame]
i'm very impressed by this latest post. i can't believe it's only 20 days between your first and last post in this thread. considering how clueless you were in terms of workflow at the time of your first post it is even more impressive to see where you've come with the latest release!
you've accepted criticism and suggestions from this thread to the best and managed to figure out what it is people like in modeling tools from the thread Vrav pointed out.
i myself am a long time silo user, it has always been considerably stable through all my systems at home and work and never experienced the extreme frustration others are having. i have become so spoiled by it's worklow, i just can not get used to any other tool. as soon as i pick up another modeling app i get 'oh that's why i like silo'
i still haven't tried your app, i'll give it a go as soon as i get some time. here's what i feel is important in a 3d modeling app.
- as already mentioned, learning curve is a BIG deal
- workflow. that's where it's at, click-efficiency what i call it.
- customization. both extent and ease of customization.
[ if you compare modo vs silo, modo is superior with it's tools (and looks way better); it still does not make it a better modeling app IMO. silo beats it in worklow and customization. ]
i think you are in the right direction, i hope to have some real feedback for you once i try your app.
another app to check out in terms of seeing an efficient learning curve and workflow is 'Sculptris'. it's a free sculpting app, in a way Silo of the sculpting world.
www.sculptris.com
good luck, i look forward to see this app grow!
-Does it really NEED to be an installable file? Much prefer how Blender/Sculptris do it where the app doesn't need to be installed and can just have its files extract to and run from an empty folder. If nothing else it makes testing out new builds more of a pain.
-No way to drag the viewports/menu borders to make them larger/smaller
-Viewport navigation is odd, try using the alt+lmb/mmb/rmb, its the most widely accepted 3d navigation.
-The viewport 'snaps' while moving around in it, its not smooth at all, not referring to performance. However, when it comes to performance, even with just a box zooming in/out sometimes made the program choke for a second or two.
-qwerty keys dont work, despite being listed.
-pre-selection highlighting is active on all component types despite the component mode the user is in.
-Tools like inset don't work in realtime, making it so the user has to undo, change values, and re-try some actions many times to get them right, wasting a lot of time.
-The bug vrav mentioned is also still present in this build of the mesh disappearing with a oragami looking piece showing up in the middle of the scene. happened with using undo, inset, and cut for me.
Honestly the program is a mess atm (to say the least). My suggestion would be to rip out the core, fix it up, and re-build the entire UI and its tools from the ground up. This program feels like it was built in a bubble, with little or no input from artists that actually use the kind of software you're trying to create here.
If you want people to use your progam, you're going to need to make some major changes. Just because its free doen't mean people will care about the effort you've put in. Blender is the most advanced free app, but almost no one but hobbiests and cash-poor indies use it over the major apps, and the main reason for that is its UI (at least until 2.49) is almost universally disliked.
Make a simple UI, with just a few well implemented tools and people will love you. Make an overbearing beast of a program with every tool imaginable but a horrible UI and people will ignore you. Its that simple.
On a downside i cant install on my Vista 64 machine. it says i need .Net 1.1 I have .Net 4 installed. I tried installing 1.1 and it made no difference.
PolyHertz has a good point. Tools like Inset absolutely need to be in realtime. Sticky keys are a great interaction model for these sorts of tasks.
They have 2 modes: Using a polygon bevel as an example.
1:user presses and releases key. a bevel is done using default parameters(or last used parameters)
2:user presses and holds key. Bevel becomes live. up/down mouse movement controls the extrusion of the bevel and left/right controls the inset amount. releasing the key finishes the bevel.
With sticky keys + using the mouses axises and scroll wheel you can give the user a lot of direct control over the model. which is what everyone wants
Id also go with the idea of overhauling the UI with some experienced modelers on hand starting from the ground up. It'd probably be painfull but the UI is as important as the tools in a modeller.
If i can get this installed Id be willing to help out where i can with testing
I'll write my opinion as I'm trying it. Here's my first impression.
- Viewport navigation took sometime to get used to
Suggestion: would be better if you provide optional navigation like max/maya/xsi, everybody will love it, I guarantee.
- Custom shortcut key can't be mapped to 1,2,3,etc.
Suggestion: Some users are accustomed to vertex edge polygon bound to 1,2,3
- I personally don't see border selection is useful.
Suggestion: It can be as similar as all edges selected on open face.
- Selection was awkward, left click for marquee and mmb for raycast, but how do I deselect? double RMB?
Suggestion: left click for raycast, mmb for lasso/marquee selection. Deselect simply click on the viewport. and RMB is better reserved for menu/command popup.
- Shortcut key for move rotate scale doesnt work, probably clashing with streamline engine.
Suggestion: q for select, w for move, e for rotate, r for scale, I think that's pretty standard.
- When rotating, hover the 'circle' should do free rotational instead of having to hightlight and rotate per axis.
- People tend to switch back and forth from base to smooth/subdivided mode, so a toggle would be awesome, maya has it in 1,2,3 for base, smooth with cage, and smooth isoparm only. Max user tends to bind a hotkey to ` key to toggle show end result with turbosmooth.
- I encountered fatal error upon using symmetry in component mode.
I also got this little thing in the center of the torus, what is that?
Things I like:
Symmetry mode, although it's not 100%, transform works but I tried chamfer 1 edge and the other side is not following.
Customization tools, finally! But I would suggest u to not simply assigning the shortcut key, like for example E is for Extrude, B for bevel, that way its easier to memorize rather assigning random letter
I really like ur viewport performance, it's not sluggish and the program is actually pretty light to load up, although I would personally suggest u to focus on the modeling suite rather than animation at the moment. Luxology took this approach by adding features every major version and bug fix with small update on minor version upgrade, and I think that's a good approach as users are not cluttered with lots of new tools at the same time.
I would also suggest to rebuild the UI with better framework. I'm not sure if u have to pay for license like maya use in QT, but I believe there are some alternatives which are free.
Anyway, I'm enjoying your new update, and I'm more than happy to try it further. If you're interested to get more feedback we could probably chat in msn/ym.
Thanks!
*I'm entirely agree with Polyhertz
--selection--
Note: all these should work as standard, raycast, and marquee. If the user clicks a component it selects. If they click and drag on a component it uses raycast, if they click and drag outside the object it marquees.
lmb = select
ctrl+lmb = deselect
shift+lmb = add to selection
--navigation--
alt+lmb = rotate
alt+mmb = pan
alt+rmb = zoom
--other--
ctrl+shift+lmb = drag-extrude edge/face
double lmb = smart loop/ring. watch an example here: http://draster.com/videos/downloadable/NEXv1-part1.mov
basicly i think all this stuff should be customizable no matter what app you are using, i'll never understand why i cannot change shortcuts for ctrl, alt and shift, it just doesn't make sense.
It seems I need to change lot of things, especially the UI. I am not afraid to do that, but the thing is it is not easy to lay out the final decision. When I started it, I used Max as the sample since it's been used by many and easier to understand compare to other apps.
Since the StreamLine Engine has been built, for common tasks, for most of the time, an UI is not necessary shown in the scene. My current solution is switch the scene window to full screen F5 and when it is needed, press down Home key will show up the UI, release Home key to hide it.
The default view navigation key settins is odd. I am the only one who likes it. I should change it to Alt +lmb/mmb/rmb in the default customization. I should make the selection editing key settings customizable.
When I assign the default hot keys, I group them so similar tools close together. I have no idea what is the perfect or common hot key assignment. I thought user will assign the hotkeys himself anyway.
I need to learn more about sticky keys.
The bug in component symmetry tool fixed. Thanks: elte
I also have fixed a bug in the Shell tool.
The bug Vrav and PolyHertz encountered not yet catched. I'll keep trying. I need some luck here, it seems only hide from me.
The streamLine Engine actually has two modes: 1. element sensitive (That's the default mode, all elements can be detected and accessible, that's why "pre-selection highlighting is active on all component types despite the component mode the user is in") 2. mode sensitive (similar to Silo).
The extrude short cut suggested by PolyHertz seems quite different from what Silo uses, Silo only uses one key.
elte: That tiny thing you mentioned is two matrix represention, one for the object, the other is for the Torus, since the Torus may only be one of the object's components.
And I would like to have a chance to chat with you. I actually don't know any modeller at all. Tell me how to do it. I haven't signed up MSN yet, I'll do that.
Also yea, get on MSN already and post the info. Cant believe you'd take something like this on without knowing anyone who uses these apps
http://download.blender.org/documentation/bc2008/evolution_of_blenders_ui.pdf
I wonder if you would want to share your program's roadmap, IMO I would suggest for UI revamp and basic standard navigation/selection done right. It's kinda useless if you have fancy tools but users aren't comfortable using your software, like blender
Personally, I prefer Maya-style navigation as it leaves the right mouse button free for other stuff. Other than Max users I think a lot of people are already used to it as it's the default nav style for quite a few other apps (off the top of my head, Mudbox, Silo, Modo?)
In the vast choices of 3d package, I personnaly don't buy/use a software without maya-like navigation unless there is some really serious feature i can't find nowhere else... Like zbrush for instance.
But for a modeler, if you don't at least give the option to use maya-like navigation it's a big no no.
I even payed 50 bucks just for that option in 3ds max...
Anyway i'm really curious how this end up, right now i would really enjoy a streamlined but complete (AND STABLE) package in the silo vibe.
erm i dunno but max is only alt and mmb, sure you can use str+alt+mmb for soft zoom but in most cases you only need one mousebutton and one keyboardshortcut and not like 3 mousebuttons together with a keyboardshortcut ^^
A little dream i have is to get my hands on a modeler which does all the low level work natively and all the ui/interaction via script. with everything exposed to scripting. (you may need to hire 100 programmers to keep me happy
Neox: what is STR short for, I know its control on the german board but what is the actual word it abbreviates?
I am currently fixing the bugs Vrav and Polyhertz encountered.
r_fletch_r: I will make a cab file so you can download and see if it works in vista. When I have time.
I hate how in max u need two buttons to move around. hate it with a passion.
xsi uses s to move around, very annoying at 1st. tho once u see all the fucntions you have when modeling using the alt key it kinda starts making sense. Alt could be used to quickly select edge loops, alt + shift + middle click to add more edge loops to that selection. and if you are on face mode then u could be able to also select loops and rings of faces by holding alt and middle click. At the same time u could alt to find the next edge selected.
keep up the hard work!
I can't think of anything that max does more intuitively than other apps.
which move do you mean by the way? camera pan or the actual move tool?
@frostymoose: really? so extruding an edge by 0 and then moving it like in maya is more intuitive than just shift cloning it?
middle = pan
alt+ middle = rotate
scrollwheel = zoom
frostymoose: thats totally subjective.
Hi, BeatKitano. Can you tell me more about these two menus and how they can speed things up. Thanks
It's really useful, because 1 keyboard shortcut can hold few commands together. And once you got used to it, you just simply do it by gesture.
Urm can I request you took off some animation/rigging module on ur next release? Right now it feels cluttered and I believe its best to focus on modeling first rather than keeping rigging and animation together.
Cheers!
r_fletch_r: You can download this zip file 11mb. It dosn't need installaction. Hope it workes in Vista
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/VoidWorld.zip