I've added the "Clear search field" button, it will be available in the next update.
While doing so, I noticed that the search is a little .... broken... Not only does it select all filtered objects when pressing enter, but also if you go out of the search field in any other way, which is wrong.
Also, the search seems to be broken in layer mode... Some fixing to be done there!
Couple of work flow suggestions. Don't know if they are possible. Middle click to pan, just like other 3D Max hierarchy tree views (i.e. the Track View) The window keeps nudging itself to the right, and you have to use the scroll bar to put it back.
Also, pressing enter in the search box selects the objects and clears the text field. These can both be optional.
I've put together a simple website for this project. I should of course have done that much earlier, but never got round to doing it. It probably doesn't contain too much new information for frequent users of the Outliner, but you might be interested in checking out the "Tips & Tricks" page. This contains a list of some interesting 'hidden' features.
Couple of work flow suggestions. Don't know if they are possible. Middle click to pan, just like other 3D Max hierarchy tree views (i.e. the Track View) The window keeps nudging itself to the right, and you have to use the scroll bar to put it back.
That's an interesting idea. In principle I'm all for following the standard behavior, so users know what they can expect. I'll take a look at this!
Also, pressing enter in the search box selects the objects and clears the text field. These can both be optional.
Currently there's a little bug with this, I'll fix that. Clearing the search field after selecting the filtered objects certainly makes sense.
I've updated the Outliner to version 2.0.95. This is still a release for max 2008 and above.
Most notable changes are fixes to the search field and an added "clear search field" button in the main UI. For a full list of changes, see the changelog.
As always, the easiest way to update is through the Outliner (Options->General->Check Now). Alternatively, you can download and install it manually.
For those running 2.0.94, you'll now get to see the new update dialog, I hope you'll like it!
I love the little automatic update function! Thanks for putting so much effort into this.
Can i grab the oportunity and ask something, is there a way to fil that gap with the script? Sometimes layer lists get pretty long and would be awesome to be able to select them without need to scroll up and down. (I have it docked to the left side of the screen)
This has been of so much help. Especially since the standard max layer "dialog" isn't very user friendly.
But I can't seem to delete layers through Outliner, I need to go to the standard layer "dialog" and delete them there.
@[HP]
That issue was around since the first release (I think, well at least the first release that I use heheh) and the solustion is you resize the Outliner window before you dock it. I believe it also a known issue and PJ has mentioned about this in the website.
@Tom
Newer version of Outline work with the right-click "delete" function on a layer. No need to visit the standard layer manager anymore just to delete layer!
@[HP]The docking issue is indeed an annoying one. The functionality was already quite shaky in max versions up to 2010, but it became really broken in max 2011... As Revel says, the only way to 'solve' this is to undock, resize, and redock. You should have to do this only once, the Outliner will remember its size next time you open it.
By the way, the button icons look a bit odd..so dark. I wonder what's going on there..?
@Tom: I guess that you mean deleting layers by pressing the "delete" key? If so, that is 'by design'. As Revel suggests, you can delete them through the context menu. However, maybe I should consider catching delete keypresses and handling them in the Outliner, rather than passing everything on to 3dsmax.
Thanks for the fast request, I was actually talking about the "right click" delete function.
Whenever I hit the delete "button" in the menu nothing happens. The layer just stays and nothing changes.
(also doesn't make a difference when I have the layer selected or not, put it active or not)
I'm running on the educational version of max 2011 if that makes a difference?
Also I've tried to update but got no message or whatever but the standard 7days checking for update is still set.
This just keeps getting better and better. I see on ScriptSpot that Outliner is one of the most downloaded scripts. And for good reason - I can't imagine ever using Max without it now! Thanks for all the hard work on this.
Apologies if this has already been covered but ...
I recently moved my home office and now my second monitor (where I kept Outliner running) is on the left side instead of the right. Now when I press my hot key for Outliner it blips and flips like it's coming up but then it never appears. I assume that it's now stuck off screen somewhere. Is there an INI file or registry setting I can tweak to get it back onto the main display area again?
The code that opens the window ought to prevent this from happening, but apparently it needs reviewing.
Check out the known issues section of the Outliner's website (3rd bulletpoint).
@WarrenMarshall: if you are using the Outliner to the left of the primary monitor now, could you maybe check the outliner_prefs.ini and see what value the posx entry in there has? Thanks.
Hello and thank you again
I totally use the outliner all the time and spread it to my coworkers.
I've made a donation to support you, not that i think it gives me the right to ask for new stuff, but i think this would be useful
Would it be possible to have a double window, where you can put 2 modes at the same time ? Even 2 hierarchy mode
The 'double view' is in the making at this very moment! It has got a number of quite far-reaching consequences for the design though. Most of them are technical, for example: it requires a lot of code refactoring to allow for multiple treeviews.
But there are some things to think about when it comes to how to actually use it in the interface too. For example: how should the filters work? Should it be on both treeviews, or should each tree have it's own filter?
I'm also taking this refactoring process as an opportunity to carry out more detailed (unit) tests, which will hopefully improve the quality and stability of the product.
How awesome
Well in maya the filter is the same for both views. I don't use filter/sort that much, always alphabetical order, so i couldn't say. It could be useful to have them seperated as it could be irritating so do both and put an option hehe.
But i do think one search field per view would be useful.
On scriptspot someone suggested/requested about an Outliner-based render pass manager. Do you guys have any thoughts on that? First of all, would it be useful? (Since there are some renderpass managers out there already I believe) And secondly, how would it have to work, what features would it have to have, etcetera.
Hi PJanssen take a look at Ephere Zookeeper they actually offer every thing you're talking about from double window, to render pass manager, and filters. You'll maybe find some answer inside it. I use this plug in everyday and i can say that it really robust and powerfull.
Aha I didn't know Zookeeper had a renderpass manager too. Interesting.
By the way, the reason why I'm asking this is because I don't want to just copy what's already out there (there's no point to that). I'd rather like to know what people find useful, or what features they miss in existing tools. And after all, since this is a hobby project, I have time to reinvent the wheel ;-)
And i'm pretty sure that you'll be able to invent new stuff. For me the next step into the asset management story is not double window but one single window : A tree view supporting layer or if you prefer a layer manager supporting object's hierarchy.
Yes I've been thinking about that too, like a hybrid view of hierarchy and layer mode.
I'd have to find a good solution for when a hierarchy is split over multiple layers though.
I have an idea for a minor improvement that I'd like some input on:
At the moment, there's an option to set what happens when you click a node's icon. This can be "hide", "freeze", or "set layer active". The last one is the default, and is -obviously- only useful for layer nodes.
Now my idea was to extend this to something like "context sensitive action". That is, for a layer node it would still set the clicked layer to be active. But for example for a light node, it could toggle the light on and off.
So the question is: for other object types (e.g. poly, camera, bone), what useful actions could there be?
For polyobjects you could include a context action to turn on or off Turbosmooth. The light node thing is essential, that's why I use the Onion for some stuff.
I'm not much of an animation guy, but being able to toggle animation tracks would be great as well.
There's just one more thing, that I think needs to be changed. If possible, could you look into making objects inherit a layer's "Show Frozen in Gray" property whenever they're added or moved? For some reason I can't get it to work with Outliner, so again I go back to the Onion to toggle the switch to disable grey frozen objects.
Oh also, one quick suggestion as well. It would be really cool if you could link the wire color with some sort of colormarker that shows up in outliner. Maybe a little color box that shows up at the end of the layer's name.
Here's a little update on the development of the Outliner.
I'm currently working on some serious refactoring in the .NET treeview, to allow multiple trees being open simultaneously. While doing so, I'm also trying to optimize further. Even though I've already spent a great deal of time on optimization for v2.0, I have found a way to improve the sorting performance.
For those interested in the technical details:
The original sorting algorithm used in the TreeView has a really bad performance characteristic. I believe it uses insertion-sort, so the sorting time increases exponentially as the list grows in average scenarios. I'm now employing a QuickSort instead, which has a much more friendly performance characteristic.
That this can become significant is shown by these measurements:
10.000 nodes, in hierarchies of 0~10 children per node.
Default sort: 46ms
QuickSort: 46ms
10.000 nodes, in a flat list:
Default sort: 1552ms
QuickSort: 93ms
So it is clear that QuickSort is a lot faster for longer lists. And the best thing is that it didn't even take much coding to implement it, just a few lines!
I'm also going to try to avoid having to sort the entire hierarchy for each operation that would require sorting. If something happens way down the hierarchy chain, only that part should be sorted, not the entire hierarchy as happens by default. But that's still in the pipeline
I've been looking at ways to adjust the UI for multiple treeviews. You should be able to set the tree's listmode, sortmode and filter independently. The current interface has just a single set of buttons, which could be an issue.
So here's a few mockups of ideas I had to solve this:
Number 1 and 3 is promising, but I prefer the 3. It feels similar with Max's viewport (active cue) and doesn't waste space at the top (or bottom) and personally I only use hierarchy and layer mode most of the time so I don't really benefit of having 2 toolstrip if I can see both treeview at the same time.
Btw, PJ are you gonna put an option of enable/disable the double treeviews? because I'm not too sure about using 2 treeviews at the same time (esp when rigging with a lots of hierarchy bone list), but who knows I'd change my mind when actually "feel" the double treeviews hehe
Thanks for the input guys. More feedback is always welcome of course
@Revel: The default state will be a single tree. I'm still looking at how it will work exactly, but I'm aiming for as much flexibility as possible. The idea is that you can have two trees in a single window, but also open multiple outliner windows.
Not #1 #3 is the best compromise between less "wasted" space and quick access, and it's clear.
Now I don't often change the filter option, so it could be hidden to win a bit of space like #2 (though its like 15 pixels)
For #2 and 3#, I assume the search field is linked to the selected tree ?
This will definitely be the easiest to implement, since all the previous options require a bit of trickery to make them work, and this one doesn't. I just wonder if it won't get in the way of the other functions on the contextmenu too much....
Now that i'm struggling with parenting hundreds of objects, i even more believe it would be useful to have one searchfield per treeview.
I mean, if drag and drop is bossible between treeviews of the same type ?
@PJ
Hi man, as much as I love clean interface but with a blank to start with and can only get it with right click, personally I don't like the idea. Some people (like me) will have a few seconds of blank stare at it and thinking where's the layer to only realize that I'm not in the layer mode. I need those buttons mode in the interface all the time as a reminder/ visual cue of what's going on in the outliner's list.
Btw, Recently I just thought of something else to put in your outliner, what do you think about adding a tab for "polygons summary"? so each object has its own tris/ quads/ ngons summarize in one place, well just thought of it while making LODs for the ingame assets model, so if the 2 objects have the same name and the other has a suffix of "_x1, _x2" it will compare to the one without suffix (objecetname, objectname_x1, objectname_x2), so if the _x1 object is way more than 50% of the one without suffix, the number will go red or something to tell it's still too much as a LODs and need mode reduction. The _x2 is 50% of the _x1 and so on. LOL, I know it's too much to ask for..well, it's just an idea, please don't hate me PJ.. xD
@Noors
Eh? drag and drop between treeviews of the same type?..didn't both of them suppose to have the same content if you open both let say on the "layer" mode?..
Revel, yes ofc, but it's about parenting. When u have like 1000 objects and have to parent something called A to something called Z, it's a long way to go
I can still use schematic or parenting in the viewport, but with 2 treeviews, you type the name of your object in the first, the name of your parent in the second, then bam, drag and drop, it's done easy. Besides, it's the way it works in Maya
I have updated the Outliner to version 2.0.96.
Changes:
* [Bugfix] Crash when deleting multiple objects with dependencies from context-menu (e.g. Camera + Camera.Target).
* [Bugfix] Clear search field button position incorrect when changing search field position.
Use the update function in the Outliner's options dialog to get it, or alternatively download it from the website.
The first issue was a frequently occurring one (received 59 crash reports about it), the second had been in the beta version for a while already.
I have the problem, that i can't see the outliner anymore - maybe because of installing new display drivers and now it's on a negative screen position or something like that is there a way to reset the window position?
Pjanssen, have you thought about including a selection set mode ?
The Manage Selection Set ain't very handy : no direct selection, no multiselection, no drag and drop. Selection sets are a pain to edit, and they could really benefit from what you've done for hierarchy/layer/material modes.
Another thing, would it be possible to include an option to not see parenting ? Just all objects by alphabetical order ?
Man, i can't say how much your tool eases the process on my actual project. Without, I would probably have a nervous breakdown.
Keep it up
I have indeed given the selection sets mode some thought in the past. The main issue with this is that the architecture of the treeview of the Outliner is not designed to handle multiple instances of the same node. This is something that will certainly be necessary when showing selection sets of course.
Now that I am refactoring much of the code and making the whole architecture more flexible, I might want to consider taking this into account.
About "an option to not see parenting", do you mean that you'd want a flat list without any hierarchy? I suppose this could be a mode too. In the new architecture this should be fairly easy to add.
do you mean that you'd want a flat list without any hierarchy?
yep, that's what i meant good sir
The scene explorer has this option. It's just in some situations, easier to localize an object this way.
Sorry my english isn't really good, i sometimes struggle to express myself clearly.
Replies
While doing so, I noticed that the search is a little .... broken... Not only does it select all filtered objects when pressing enter, but also if you go out of the search field in any other way, which is wrong.
Also, the search seems to be broken in layer mode... Some fixing to be done there!
Couple of work flow suggestions. Don't know if they are possible. Middle click to pan, just like other 3D Max hierarchy tree views (i.e. the Track View) The window keeps nudging itself to the right, and you have to use the scroll bar to put it back.
Also, pressing enter in the search box selects the objects and clears the text field. These can both be optional.
Thanks for the great tool!
Comments & suggestions are welcome, as always
Thanks!
That's an interesting idea. In principle I'm all for following the standard behavior, so users know what they can expect. I'll take a look at this!
Currently there's a little bug with this, I'll fix that. Clearing the search field after selecting the filtered objects certainly makes sense.
Most notable changes are fixes to the search field and an added "clear search field" button in the main UI. For a full list of changes, see the changelog.
As always, the easiest way to update is through the Outliner (Options->General->Check Now). Alternatively, you can download and install it manually.
For those running 2.0.94, you'll now get to see the new update dialog, I hope you'll like it!
Thanks man!
_Revel
Can i grab the oportunity and ask something, is there a way to fil that gap with the script? Sometimes layer lists get pretty long and would be awesome to be able to select them without need to scroll up and down. (I have it docked to the left side of the screen)
But I can't seem to delete layers through Outliner, I need to go to the standard layer "dialog" and delete them there.
also I second the suggestion HP made.
That issue was around since the first release (I think, well at least the first release that I use heheh) and the solustion is you resize the Outliner window before you dock it. I believe it also a known issue and PJ has mentioned about this in the website.
@Tom
Newer version of Outline work with the right-click "delete" function on a layer. No need to visit the standard layer manager anymore just to delete layer!
_Revel
By the way, the button icons look a bit odd..so dark. I wonder what's going on there..?
@Tom: I guess that you mean deleting layers by pressing the "delete" key? If so, that is 'by design'. As Revel suggests, you can delete them through the context menu. However, maybe I should consider catching delete keypresses and handling them in the Outliner, rather than passing everything on to 3dsmax.
Whenever I hit the delete "button" in the menu nothing happens. The layer just stays and nothing changes.
(also doesn't make a difference when I have the layer selected or not, put it active or not)
I'm running on the educational version of max 2011 if that makes a difference?
Also I've tried to update but got no message or whatever but the standard 7days checking for update is still set.
If you try to update using "check now", do you still not get an update message?
Regarding the dark buttons, well, I am running a custom dark-theme.ui, I like my 3dsmax nice and dark.
I recently moved my home office and now my second monitor (where I kept Outliner running) is on the left side instead of the right. Now when I press my hot key for Outliner it blips and flips like it's coming up but then it never appears. I assume that it's now stuck off screen somewhere. Is there an INI file or registry setting I can tweak to get it back onto the main display area again?
Check out the known issues section of the Outliner's website (3rd bulletpoint).
I totally use the outliner all the time and spread it to my coworkers.
I've made a donation to support you, not that i think it gives me the right to ask for new stuff, but i think this would be useful
Would it be possible to have a double window, where you can put 2 modes at the same time ? Even 2 hierarchy mode
The 'double view' is in the making at this very moment! It has got a number of quite far-reaching consequences for the design though. Most of them are technical, for example: it requires a lot of code refactoring to allow for multiple treeviews.
But there are some things to think about when it comes to how to actually use it in the interface too. For example: how should the filters work? Should it be on both treeviews, or should each tree have it's own filter?
I'm also taking this refactoring process as an opportunity to carry out more detailed (unit) tests, which will hopefully improve the quality and stability of the product.
Well in maya the filter is the same for both views. I don't use filter/sort that much, always alphabetical order, so i couldn't say. It could be useful to have them seperated as it could be irritating so do both and put an option hehe.
But i do think one search field per view would be useful.
By the way, the reason why I'm asking this is because I don't want to just copy what's already out there (there's no point to that). I'd rather like to know what people find useful, or what features they miss in existing tools. And after all, since this is a hobby project, I have time to reinvent the wheel ;-)
But if there's (other) ideas, feel free to post them!
I'd have to find a good solution for when a hierarchy is split over multiple layers though.
At the moment, there's an option to set what happens when you click a node's icon. This can be "hide", "freeze", or "set layer active". The last one is the default, and is -obviously- only useful for layer nodes.
Now my idea was to extend this to something like "context sensitive action". That is, for a layer node it would still set the clicked layer to be active. But for example for a light node, it could toggle the light on and off.
So the question is: for other object types (e.g. poly, camera, bone), what useful actions could there be?
I'm not much of an animation guy, but being able to toggle animation tracks would be great as well.
There's just one more thing, that I think needs to be changed. If possible, could you look into making objects inherit a layer's "Show Frozen in Gray" property whenever they're added or moved? For some reason I can't get it to work with Outliner, so again I go back to the Onion to toggle the switch to disable grey frozen objects.
Oh also, one quick suggestion as well. It would be really cool if you could link the wire color with some sort of colormarker that shows up in outliner. Maybe a little color box that shows up at the end of the layer's name.
I'm currently working on some serious refactoring in the .NET treeview, to allow multiple trees being open simultaneously. While doing so, I'm also trying to optimize further. Even though I've already spent a great deal of time on optimization for v2.0, I have found a way to improve the sorting performance.
For those interested in the technical details:
The original sorting algorithm used in the TreeView has a really bad performance characteristic. I believe it uses insertion-sort, so the sorting time increases exponentially as the list grows in average scenarios. I'm now employing a QuickSort instead, which has a much more friendly performance characteristic.
That this can become significant is shown by these measurements: So it is clear that QuickSort is a lot faster for longer lists. And the best thing is that it didn't even take much coding to implement it, just a few lines!
I'm also going to try to avoid having to sort the entire hierarchy for each operation that would require sorting. If something happens way down the hierarchy chain, only that part should be sorted, not the entire hierarchy as happens by default. But that's still in the pipeline
So here's a few mockups of ideas I had to solve this:
#1 A toolstrip for each tree.
#2 A toolstrip as part of the context menu (kinda like the new office context menus)
#3 Keep the current UI, but having a visual cue for the tree it will affect. (the tree that has focus)
I'd like some feedback on these ideas
Btw, PJ are you gonna put an option of enable/disable the double treeviews? because I'm not too sure about using 2 treeviews at the same time (esp when rigging with a lots of hierarchy bone list), but who knows I'd change my mind when actually "feel" the double treeviews hehe
_Revel
@Revel: The default state will be a single tree. I'm still looking at how it will work exactly, but I'm aiming for as much flexibility as possible. The idea is that you can have two trees in a single window, but also open multiple outliner windows.
#3 is the best compromise between less "wasted" space and quick access, and it's clear.
Now I don't often change the filter option, so it could be hidden to win a bit of space like #2 (though its like 15 pixels)
For #2 and 3#, I assume the search field is linked to the selected tree ?
This will definitely be the easiest to implement, since all the previous options require a bit of trickery to make them work, and this one doesn't. I just wonder if it won't get in the way of the other functions on the contextmenu too much....
I mean, if drag and drop is bossible between treeviews of the same type ?
Hi man, as much as I love clean interface but with a blank to start with and can only get it with right click, personally I don't like the idea. Some people (like me) will have a few seconds of blank stare at it and thinking where's the layer to only realize that I'm not in the layer mode. I need those buttons mode in the interface all the time as a reminder/ visual cue of what's going on in the outliner's list.
Btw, Recently I just thought of something else to put in your outliner, what do you think about adding a tab for "polygons summary"? so each object has its own tris/ quads/ ngons summarize in one place, well just thought of it while making LODs for the ingame assets model, so if the 2 objects have the same name and the other has a suffix of "_x1, _x2" it will compare to the one without suffix (objecetname, objectname_x1, objectname_x2), so if the _x1 object is way more than 50% of the one without suffix, the number will go red or something to tell it's still too much as a LODs and need mode reduction. The _x2 is 50% of the _x1 and so on. LOL, I know it's too much to ask for..well, it's just an idea, please don't hate me PJ.. xD
@Noors
Eh? drag and drop between treeviews of the same type?..didn't both of them suppose to have the same content if you open both let say on the "layer" mode?..
_Revel
I can still use schematic or parenting in the viewport, but with 2 treeviews, you type the name of your object in the first, the name of your parent in the second, then bam, drag and drop, it's done easy. Besides, it's the way it works in Maya
Changes:
* [Bugfix] Crash when deleting multiple objects with dependencies from context-menu (e.g. Camera + Camera.Target).
* [Bugfix] Clear search field button position incorrect when changing search field position.
Use the update function in the Outliner's options dialog to get it, or alternatively download it from the website.
The first issue was a frequently occurring one (received 59 crash reports about it), the second had been in the beta version for a while already.
http://script.threesixty.nl/outliner/index.php/known-issues
I hope that helps!
The Manage Selection Set ain't very handy : no direct selection, no multiselection, no drag and drop. Selection sets are a pain to edit, and they could really benefit from what you've done for hierarchy/layer/material modes.
Another thing, would it be possible to include an option to not see parenting ? Just all objects by alphabetical order ?
Man, i can't say how much your tool eases the process on my actual project. Without, I would probably have a nervous breakdown.
Keep it up
Now that I am refactoring much of the code and making the whole architecture more flexible, I might want to consider taking this into account.
About "an option to not see parenting", do you mean that you'd want a flat list without any hierarchy? I suppose this could be a mode too. In the new architecture this should be fairly easy to add.
yep, that's what i meant good sir
The scene explorer has this option. It's just in some situations, easier to localize an object this way.
Sorry my english isn't really good, i sometimes struggle to express myself clearly.
http://script.threesixty.nl/outliner/
In the "development blog" section I'll occasionally write about the progress of the development of the Outliner.