The main point of hard-surface modelling is to get high detail, rounded edges 'n such, bake a normal map form those details, and then use the lowpoly in game. Don't worry about the tri count until you have made that lowpoly. And yes, source can use normal maps, so you are on the right track.
so i should just contune how i am just make things exactly how i want and not worry about poly or vert counts and bake my normal maps than decimate it to a low poly version before exporting to source engine.
Not shure what you mean, but reminds me of this.
Never tried the Crease Parameter myself, I just stumbled over this today (here at PC?). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8LHIdJEa1E
This is a large document so don't click if your connection is slow. http://graphics.pixar.com/library/Geri/paper.pdf
This is a paper Pixar did on their subdivision algorithms. Really neat stuff in there.
hi guys, I've tried to model this simple shape, but I end up with bad topology and no crease
The reference of shape that I try to model
I try to model 1st shape and using 3 different poly flow, with fewer poly, and less poly. but when I just add the subdivision, the result is no crease on the corner.
anyone help me how to make those 1st and 2nd shape (white and green) good topology and good crease when I add the subdivision into.
so i should just contune how i am just make things exactly how i want and not worry about poly or vert counts and bake my normal maps than decimate it to a low poly version before exporting to source engine.
would that be right
You do the high poly, then decimate/lowpoly, then bake. If you're using blender, you also wanna learn how to use the split edges modifier. It's basically blender's Smoothing groups system. Good luck!
If you look at the stack i started with a spline for the outline. I extruded that to give it thickness. Then i went in and cut the actual topology.
It sure can be optimized some but i like it quite even in case you wanna sculpt and its just a good habit to get into IMO.
It sure can be optimized some but i like it quite even in case you wanna sculpt and its just a good habit to get into IMO.
Thats not really even topology. If it was to be sculpted, should just leave the control edges off and space the quads out as even as possible and then just smooth it 1x with continuity off so it just adds geometry. You'll get your control edges that way and it'll help fill it in.
"continuity" is an option you can turn off and on in maya, so I'd imagine max has the same or similar ability, if not a better option.
Edit: (so not clogging this thread with stuff)
Stefan, when you said "it could be optimized more" optimized to me came across as more efficient geometry or lower poly. Not quaded for sculpting.
I also didn't mean to come across as an ass about it either, though it seems it may have been misconstrued that way. Anyway, simple misunderstanding of differences in terminology.
i would just make it a floater. that way you wouldnt have to wory about the edge flow of the sorounding geo. You can still make it look like its merged with the parent surface even though it is a floater.
I was able to do it by just chamfering. It would create a little bit of shearing if it weren't a floater though so it's not an end all solution. Just make it look like it merges and it should work fine.
thank you man, i got the idea where is should put extra edges for maintain the shape. so, what method you use for start building that "oddshape?" I mean starting with square, spline or anything else?
If you look at the stack i started with a spline for the outline. I extruded that to give it thickness. Then i went in and cut the actual topology.
It sure can be optimized some but i like it quite even in case you wanna sculpt and its just a good habit to get into IMO.
I see, so you do with spline first and than converted into polygon, right?
Vaneir: I started with a square plane. I just extruded edges and moved verts. Once I got the shape roughed in, I made some cuts with split poly/edge loop tool and started adjusting it to fit the silhouette. I then deleted unnecessary verts to finalize the shape.
I used insert edge loop to rough in the major control edges this caused geo like your top right one. then started cleaning up the interior edge loops condensing them down and moving them as need be. Once that was done I added a second control edge inside of the other one, and started condensing the triple edges down into one on the interior.
I added a second control edge inside of the new one. This keeps the triangles from causing deformations or oddities in the reflections along the edges once you extrude the entire outer edge down to get the bevel look.
Seems like a lot, really not though.
Edit: This only really works if its a flat surface though. If you try and warp it to curve it'll cause pinching and smoothing errors left and right. Down right ugly Figured I'd put that up just in case.
@Grimm_Wrecking
thanks for the explanation grimm, that's help me to understanding the flow now. yeah I've try using deformer to bend the shape, and end result is mess up.
anyway your gun WIP is awesome
@SideEffect
I you want to make those bavel on every edge, I think its easy to do it in Maxon C4D. they have a great tool for make rounding corner. Could you please put the .obj file, so I could help you out. Of course if you dont mind.
@vaneir
almost right. spline then extrude then convert to poly. If you just convert to poly you end up with a flat surface which you can extrude then. its just a matter of preference really and i think you work with maya right? so it doesnt make sense to go to deep into max terminology.
so you want to deform the whole shape so its not flat but bent?
if you add a bit more supporting geo where its needed my shape will bent quite ok.
@martinball
really nothing wrong with floaters.. in this example it will not even be visible if done right. It will not be like a hole floating over a surface to avoid cutting the mesh. it will be something thats added to the surface.
i know sub d modeling is all bout the smooth shapes and control edges and topology,
but in blender i can use median crease settings to controll my sub d items, with more ease... isn't there a function like that in 3ds? and is it even a good thing to use?
The 5: Thanks for posting that, I never knew about the quadrify mesh modifer. I always manually cleaned up everything, that'll save alot of time and make life easier!
Cheers.
Diaster : Not sure why that seems to be happening, I've had some similar issues like that before and it was usually a random vert that shouldnt have been there. Did you try going into wireframe mode to see if theres any unwanted verts.
try converting the object to an editable mesh and then back to poly, sometimes you get screwy shit with a mesh and that can fix it. that topology should be good. Alternatively try exporting it to .obj and reimporting it.
You may have something weird like a crease or normal value in there that is corrupted data.
Delete the polygons surrounding the crease. you'll probably find some edges connected to those verts which are preventing the smoothing from solving correctly.
A good rule of thumb for anyone starting out in sub-d. Whatever amount of geo you think you need for something, double it, then start. And ffs stick to even or at least divisible numbers on cylinders (exceptions of course, but its a good starting rule).
SHCow: Either add more geo, or if thats not an option, prepare to insert some edge loops and do some tedious adjusting between turbosmooth/smp and regular. It sucks, but it does work. Generally. (Probably faster in 80%-95% of cases to just rebuild whatever it is with, double whatever geo you need).
Sometimes Bevel/Chamfer might work, but most of the time ^^
just model a cylinder. Move one ring to get the ladder shape. Then use the array tool or sth similar in maya to put alot of cylinders next to each other in order to get the shape. Easy peasy
I'd prolly just use a helix, then add a sweep modifier to it. Select a custom shape that got nice supporting edges, and angle it slightly in the sweep settings.
I'd prolly just use a helix, then add a sweep modifier to it. Select a custom shape that got nice supporting edges, and angle it slightly in the sweep settings.
i've try using helix, and adjust the shape for archive hard edge, but the helix is become a trapezium type, not ladder -> A
just model a cylinder. Move one ring to get the ladder shape. Then use the array tool or sth similar in maya to put alot of cylinders next to each other in order to get the shape. Easy peasy
yeah, but the shape i want is cylinder:). for still image is okay, but how about to animate turntable those cylinder -> B
You already have the shape you need already i'd say, it's just flat. Grab the edgeloops that run along either the top or bottom of the spiral shape and scale them either in or out and that should do it? An easier way still would just be adding 1 edgeloop in the middle and scaling that out. Moving any of the scaled loops up or down the spiral should make the ladder effect transition between a ratcheted kinda gear, or a more traditional gear silhouette.
edit : Just tested this, what you'd need to do to more closely match your picture after following the steps i said is grab that loop, add an FDD modifier or whatever your program uses for like a transform box, and one side of it so the edges are staggered the other way. Makes for a weird look when it rotates though because the shape in the picture is impossible to have in a continuous spiral shape. When viewed from other angles it shifts back to a symmetrical silhouette, can't do anything about that i dont think.
If you want even height just make the loop closer to the cresting edge you can get it so close no one could tell.
Pedro already did this, btw... "screw me.avi" its on the board lots, I just adapted the idea to suit this.
if you want a more dramatic spiral, move the lattice so it connects another crest down.
Replies
so i should just contune how i am just make things exactly how i want and not worry about poly or vert counts and bake my normal maps than decimate it to a low poly version before exporting to source engine.
would that be right
http://graphics.pixar.com/library/Geri/paper.pdf
This is a paper Pixar did on their subdivision algorithms. Really neat stuff in there.
The reference of shape that I try to model
I try to model 1st shape and using 3 different poly flow, with fewer poly, and less poly. but when I just add the subdivision, the result is no crease on the corner.
anyone help me how to make those 1st and 2nd shape (white and green) good topology and good crease when I add the subdivision into.
You do the high poly, then decimate/lowpoly, then bake. If you're using blender, you also wanna learn how to use the split edges modifier. It's basically blender's Smoothing groups system.
OBJ
The topology isn't great, but meh.
If you look at the stack i started with a spline for the outline. I extruded that to give it thickness. Then i went in and cut the actual topology.
It sure can be optimized some but i like it quite even in case you wanna sculpt and its just a good habit to get into IMO.
Thats not really even topology. If it was to be sculpted, should just leave the control edges off and space the quads out as even as possible and then just smooth it 1x with continuity off so it just adds geometry. You'll get your control edges that way and it'll help fill it in.
"continuity" is an option you can turn off and on in maya, so I'd imagine max has the same or similar ability, if not a better option.
Edit: (so not clogging this thread with stuff)
Stefan, when you said "it could be optimized more" optimized to me came across as more efficient geometry or lower poly. Not quaded for sculpting.
I also didn't mean to come across as an ass about it either, though it seems it may have been misconstrued that way. Anyway, simple misunderstanding of differences in terminology.
thats what i meant with it can be optimized.... means better mesh with more time spent.
The point is... if this would get scultped it wouldnt behave horrible but kinda decent. And this is a good thing.
I can see how this can be easily misunderstood.
thank you man, i got the idea where is should put extra edges for maintain the shape. so, what method you use for start building that "oddshape?" I mean starting with square, spline or anything else?
I see, so you do with spline first and than converted into polygon, right?
I used insert edge loop to rough in the major control edges this caused geo like your top right one. then started cleaning up the interior edge loops condensing them down and moving them as need be. Once that was done I added a second control edge inside of the other one, and started condensing the triple edges down into one on the interior.
I added a second control edge inside of the new one. This keeps the triangles from causing deformations or oddities in the reflections along the edges once you extrude the entire outer edge down to get the bevel look.
Seems like a lot, really not though.
Edit: This only really works if its a flat surface though. If you try and warp it to curve it'll cause pinching and smoothing errors left and right. Down right ugly
I extruded the shape from splines I made.
thanks for the explanation grimm, that's help me to understanding the flow now. yeah I've try using deformer to bend the shape, and end result is mess up.
anyway your gun WIP is awesome
@SideEffect
I you want to make those bavel on every edge, I think its easy to do it in Maxon C4D. they have a great tool for make rounding corner. Could you please put the .obj file, so I could help you out. Of course if you dont mind.
almost right. spline then extrude then convert to poly. If you just convert to poly you end up with a flat surface which you can extrude then. its just a matter of preference really and i think you work with maya right? so it doesnt make sense to go to deep into max terminology.
so you want to deform the whole shape so its not flat but bent?
@martinball
really nothing wrong with floaters.. in this example it will not even be visible if done right. It will not be like a hole floating over a surface to avoid cutting the mesh. it will be something thats added to the surface.
I didn't know about that modifier.
With the shape I had it still needed a bit of cleanup but that saved me a lot of time!
but in blender i can use median crease settings to controll my sub d items, with more ease... isn't there a function like that in 3ds? and is it even a good thing to use?
Cheers.
Diaster : Not sure why that seems to be happening, I've had some similar issues like that before and it was usually a random vert that shouldnt have been there. Did you try going into wireframe mode to see if theres any unwanted verts.
try converting the object to an editable mesh and then back to poly, sometimes you get screwy shit with a mesh and that can fix it. that topology should be good. Alternatively try exporting it to .obj and reimporting it.
You may have something weird like a crease or normal value in there that is corrupted data.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/foje64/4830863974/sizes/o/in/photostream/
Some care to MSPaint in some edges for me please to give me an example.
Delete the polygons surrounding the crease. you'll probably find some edges connected to those verts which are preventing the smoothing from solving correctly.
This is as simple as I could get without making it two separate pieces.
optionally, you might be able to get along with beveling (i think its chamfer in max?)
OBJ
48sided cylinder.
Like Johny said on this page. Maybe that could be the case in here, too. Your description sounds like that, at least
SHCow: Either add more geo, or if thats not an option, prepare to insert some edge loops and do some tedious adjusting between turbosmooth/smp and regular. It sucks, but it does work. Generally. (Probably faster in 80%-95% of cases to just rebuild whatever it is with, double whatever geo you need).
Sometimes Bevel/Chamfer might work, but most of the time ^^
First i try to model the spiral but, i can not get that ladder sharp edge
tiros solution sounds very good
yeah, but the shape i want is cylinder:). for still image is okay, but how about to animate turntable those cylinder -> B
edit : Just tested this, what you'd need to do to more closely match your picture after following the steps i said is grab that loop, add an FDD modifier or whatever your program uses for like a transform box, and one side of it so the edges are staggered the other way. Makes for a weird look when it rotates though because the shape in the picture is impossible to have in a continuous spiral shape. When viewed from other angles it shifts back to a symmetrical silhouette, can't do anything about that i dont think.
there i modelled it.
Started from a helix, copied the helix with offset and build up polies from there on.
Linked cuz its like 9228px tall, sooo yeah.
If you want even height just make the loop closer to the cresting edge you can get it so close no one could tell.
Pedro already did this, btw... "screw me.avi" its on the board lots, I just adapted the idea to suit this.
if you want a more dramatic spiral, move the lattice so it connects another crest down.