How The F*#% Do I Model This? - Reply for help with specific shapes - (Post attempt before asking)

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  • Klo Works
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    Klo Works polycounter lvl 4


    I tried to follow this workflow but  it doesn't give me a smooth result instead a sharp line.



    with baking result.

    I follow this video




    the left one in flat surface looks fine but in cylinder it show sharp line.
    so any idea on how to solve it ?
  • throttlekitty
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    throttlekitty Polycount Sponsor
    @klo works, the sleeve is too short, there's not enough space and geometry for the normals to "level out" to the underlying shape.
  • SnowInChina
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    SnowInChina polycounter lvl 9
    you could copy the vertex normals from the object below to the edgering, which would fix this
  • Klo Works
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    Klo Works polycounter lvl 4
    you could copy the vertex normals from the object below to the edgering, which would fix this

    @klo works, the sleeve is too short, there's not enough space and geometry for the normals to "level out" to the underlying shape.


    @throttlekitty I am not sure if the way I do is the correct one. in flat surface 

    @SnowInChina how do you do that ? 
  • SnowInChina
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    SnowInChina polycounter lvl 9
    not sure how this works in maya exactly, since iam using blender
    maybe this will help


  • onionhead_o
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    onionhead_o polycounter lvl 11
    i believe to transfer the normals you need to use transfer attributes.
  • throttlekitty
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    throttlekitty Polycount Sponsor
    Klo Works said:
    you could copy the vertex normals from the object below to the edgering, which would fix this

    @klo works, the sleeve is too short, there's not enough space and geometry for the normals to "level out" to the underlying shape.


    @throttlekitty I am not sure if the way I do is the correct one. in flat surface 

    @SnowInChina how do you do that ? 
    It looks like your sleeve is sunk in. Use that Target Inflation value on the shrinkwrap to alleviate this. And as SnowInChina mentions, Transfer Attributes can help with normals, but not much in the case of two cylinders like this. If you're after a perfect bake, you'll need a lot of geometry for a completely perfect match. Also, smooth mesh preview generates its own normals anyway.

    In my example here, there's three meshes, the two basic cylinders and the sleeve to make them appear joined.

    A note for bakes: If you rotate the view around, especially if the objects have a shiny material on, the seams become plainly visible. However, so long as the view looking down the normals appears seamless, it's good to go for a bake.


  • Klo Works
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    Klo Works polycounter lvl 4
    It looks like your sleeve is sunk in. Use that Target Inflation value on the shrinkwrap to alleviate this. And as SnowInChina mentions, Transfer Attributes can help with normals, but not much in the case of two cylinders like this. If you're after a perfect bake, you'll need a lot of geometry for a completely perfect match. Also, smooth mesh preview generates its own normals anyway.

    In my example here, there's three meshes, the two basic cylinders and the sleeve to make them appear joined.

    A note for bakes: If you rotate the view around, especially if the objects have a shiny material on, the seams become plainly visible. However, so long as the view looking down the normals appears seamless, it's good to go for a bake.


    thanks everyone, :) 
    @throttlekitty ; but your example will show the seam if you bake it right ?
     when I try transfer normals it's not working, but it's fine with flat surface.
    I added more geometry and it's do the trick like the image below :) 
    so this method only works if I really want a perfect bake. otherwise will show the seams.
    with flat surface or little bend I don't need to add many geometry but with cylinder the best choice to add more geometry.

    @throttlekitty ; the last part I didn't get what you mean:  "However, so long as the view looking down the normals appears seamless, it's good to go for a bake."
    what  do you mean by that?
    English my second language so sorry sometime I want to make sure to get all the topic  :P 
    and thank you for taking your time.



    update** I don't need this huge geometry I just add 2 division with more loops on the bottom.


  • Mohamed_Salah_Bchir
    Any idea how to model this?
    should it be a texture or geometry?
  • SnowInChina
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  • throttlekitty
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    Klo Works said:
    It looks like your sleeve is sunk in. Use that Target Inflation value on the shrinkwrap to alleviate this. And as SnowInChina mentions, Transfer Attributes can help with normals, but not much in the case of two cylinders like this. If you're after a perfect bake, you'll need a lot of geometry for a completely perfect match. Also, smooth mesh preview generates its own normals anyway.

    In my example here, there's three meshes, the two basic cylinders and the sleeve to make them appear joined.

    A note for bakes: If you rotate the view around, especially if the objects have a shiny material on, the seams become plainly visible. However, so long as the view looking down the normals appears seamless, it's good to go for a bake.


    thanks everyone, :) 
    @throttlekitty ; but your example will show the seam if you bake it right ?
     when I try transfer normals it's not working, but it's fine with flat surface.
    I added more geometry and it's do the trick like the image below :) 
    so this method only works if I really want a perfect bake. otherwise will show the seams.
    with flat surface or little bend I don't need to add many geometry but with cylinder the best choice to add more geometry.

    @throttlekitty ; the last part I didn't get what you mean:  "However, so long as the view looking down the normals appears seamless, it's good to go for a bake."
    what  do you mean by that?
    English my second language so sorry sometime I want to make sure to get all the topic  :P 
    and thank you for taking your time.



    update** I don't need this huge geometry I just add 2 division with more loops on the bottom.



    I don't always type well, so I'll try again. Baking software looks at each vertex of the low poly, using each vertex normal like a camera angle. With many models, you can easily see the seams while rotating your perspective camera around. But if you position the camera to look down the normal, or "straight down" at the seams, there should be little to no visible difference.

    I think your bevel is too tight for a game asset. You don't have to zoom out very far before there aren't enough pixels and it starts to look like a sharp edge.

    Also, I gave some bad advice regarding using a lot of geometry to get a perfect bake, and I should know better. Sometimes more geometry is the better or only solution, cylinders in particular can cause headaches. Other times it's not even possible or worth the time.
  • Papabless
    Guys how to model this details on handle? Have no clues

    https://i.imgur.com/5pavtKy.jpg
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    @Papabless
    You don't need to model any of that.
    You could manually make a bump
    map which you mix in at the normal map stage of your lowpoly or you can manually make a displacement for the hipoly.
    You can naturally model out the displacement map (it's just the outer border, a few circles, a star and one roof tile which you clone).
    So these solutions are all straight-forward and professional. No need to actually, manually model that detail into the hipoly model if all you want is a typical game asset.

    I just want you guys to know I'm not forgetting anyone. Expect something at the end of the month/beginning of next, and feel free to hold me to that promise as as I have a wealth of content already.
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    @maxman Yes.rotate the initial sphere so that its geometry is aligned to the intersection.
    Now you have it aligned to world space, which unless you need that for a very specific reason should not be done.

    Here's the image I made last time someone asked about this:


  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    I made a better image, well I think. The general principle might be good to keep in mind for any kind of complex intersection, not just spheres.


  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    maxman: I'll have a go tonight if you show the shapes you want. After that I'll be away for some time.
  • ChrisJones75
    Hey guys,

    Can someone elaborate on this please? this was a simple few steps walkthrough in creating an interesting shape. I follow along to this and get some crazy results, all of them hideous and nothing like this! my biggest issue is with creating the circle from the square, especially as it's on an angled / curved plane. Is there a simpler way to achieve the same result?
    Image credit – John Dickinson / Motionworks

    Any alternative approach is welcomed as I cannot fathom this way however many times I try...

    Thanks. 
  • drinkwater101
  • iacdxb
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    iacdxb polycounter lvl 2
    Hi,

    anyone can help with nice way topology to make that bump...? I tried bu not happy with that.
    Thanks.

    ...
  • Thanez
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    Thanez polycounter lvl 4
    @ChrisJones75 Friendo, post your attempt and we'll be able to help you out, buddy. Otherwise, no, that tutorial shows pretty much the simplest way of doing details on curves.
    You could stop at his third step, unwrap the thing and do a heightmap with displacement.

    @iacdxb M8 you've spent all that time trying to make that detail flow nicely into the flat quads,  Just cap the area off with double edgeloops and you can do whatever you want in there as long as you triangulate any ngons that pop up.


    Note: The lip errors only pop up in concave ngons.
    As for the shape of the snakey bit, make sure you have the required control points to secure it's curves. To control a curve properly you'll need 3 control points. The more you have, the harder it is to control.
  • iacdxb
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    iacdxb polycounter lvl 2
    Yes, Thanks. It works.

    Thanks.
  • HAWK12HT
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    HAWK12HT polycounter lvl 7
    @iacdxb @Thanez just know that while this method works and get you results I would also suggest looking into making same shape with quads too as it will give you more edge in modelling..
    *it may get rejected by TD or AD if even in game environment this will be used for deformations
    *it is insta no no approach in Film VFX department, this thread is for learning how to model shapes so its best we learn both ways as our industry is limited and we never know where life takes us ;) could be games could be movies or both! 
  • Thanez
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    Thanez polycounter lvl 4
    @iacdxb @HAWK12HT Sure, for a deforming or sculpting ready mesh you'll have to have the topology to be ready for that. I shouldn't have worded my post in a manner that can be read as "Ngons are always fine". I would like to specify my solution to "Ngons are fine for details around flat areas on non-deforming hardsurface meshes that will only be used for baking, specifically where the highpoly won't be added to a portfolio, showing your ugly solution"
    iacdxb: There are pros and cons to each and every method out there. Next time you run into a problem like this, try a different method than I showed you. You should learn all of the methods to be the strongest artist you can be.

    Edit: Here's a different approach:

  • vimkellerr
    Guys, do you have a photo grid collection? thanks in advance!)


  • sacboi
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    sacboi polycounter

    PolycountCounter said:

    Hey guys, just a quick one. I'm trying to add a minor light to the bumper of this car, but I don't feel like this is the right way to implement it into the mesh. Any tips on how I could make this come better into the mesh?


    Ref picture:

    Ah!...missed this one, bit late with a reply.

    So just a thought for future reference, I'm a great believer in keeping things simple because...well I think pre-empts unnecessary reedits down the track. Now even though your approach works, my suggestion is to basically sketch out those insets such as directional light and grill in the front facia first then simply bridge the edges. For further workflow insights take a peek at these, they're examples of IMO helpful automotive modeliing tips that'll be useful to keep in mind as your project develops.

    http://www.carbodydesign.com/article/59531-modeling-cars-in-polygons/

    https://polycount.com/discussion/184989/mini-cooper-classic-wip

    Cheers.    

  • Noors
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    Noors polycounter lvl 10
    mmh a tool to project normal from underlying object might be useful. I was thinking about it for max. Normal Thief takes the normal of the closest vert, but normal of the closest point on face would be more accurate. An that would fix that kind of "artefact".
    Don't know if it exists for Maya.
  • GlowingPotato
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    GlowingPotato polycounter lvl 5
    Hi,

    Having trouble with the topology for this one. How would you guys do it to have a nice smooth intersection between the cube and cylinder? I would also like to have thin rounded corners.

    Creasing the edges and smoothing in Maya resulted in pinched corners =/.
  • throttlekitty
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    throttlekitty Polycount Sponsor
    @GlowingPotato This is the quickest and cleanest way to do the intersection (IMO), but also adds extra geometry, for better or worse. I'd like to point out that I started out by deleting faces off the cylinder and created the box from the edges I extruded, plus a little cleanup and shifting to resolve the edges,


  • Zablorg
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    Zablorg polycounter lvl 3
    Hi,

    Having trouble with the topology for this one. How would you guys do it to have a nice smooth intersection between the cube and cylinder? I would also like to have thin rounded corners.

    Creasing the edges and smoothing in Maya resulted in pinched corners =/.
    This is a pretty common kind of problem. I can't mock this one up right now, but you should be able to find plenty of other examples in this very thread- maybe search for the word "offset" or something.

    The solution is not to subdivide, but rather rotate the cylinder slightly so that its vertical edges are not in line with that of the cube where it intersects, but slightly offset.

    This freely provides the supporting geometry that will give a sharp division at the intersection.
  • GlowingPotato
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    GlowingPotato polycounter lvl 5
    @GlowingPotato This is the quickest and cleanest way to do the intersection (IMO), but also adds extra geometry, for better or worse. I'd like to point out that I started out by deleting faces off the cylinder and created the box from the edges I extruded, plus a little cleanup and shifting to resolve the edges,
    Thanks a lot for replying back, I also though about adding extra geo to my cylinder, but for now, is something that i wold like to avoid. Trying to have a nice low poly mesh, if no success, than i'll add extra geo. Thanks again.

    Zablorg said:
    This is a pretty common kind of problem. I can't mock this one up right now, but you should be able to find plenty of other examples in this very thread- maybe search for the word "offset" or something.

    The solution is not to subdivide, but rather rotate the cylinder slightly so that its vertical edges are not in line with that of the cube where it intersects, but slightly offset.

    This freely provides the supporting geometry that will give a sharp division at the intersection.
    This is very interesting, I'll try that but I already have some questions about it. if the cylinder is slightly offset, would be possible to mirror half of the model after? Probably yes but i'll need to figure it out.. maybe if i offset it until the cube edges stays exactly in the middle of two vertical cylinder edges ? Thanks a lot. I'll dig further.

    EDIT:
    @Zablorg I found what you said.


    I'll try this, but, Iam still scratching my head on how to mirror half of the geometry if i want the cylinder to stay in the middle of the cube...maybe if offset it away from he cylinder? lets see...

    By the way, people were mad at each other at the post i took this image from, so ignore the last phrase in the image. 
  • GlowingPotato
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    GlowingPotato polycounter lvl 5
    So, Its much better now, but I`m still have problems in the marked spot, any suggestions ?


    also, there is a N-gon at the Structure image that i don't know how to properly solve it.

    EDIT:

    So, my result is very acceptable for my standards. But i still have issues that I would like some inputs from you guys. There is a n-gon, pinched edges and the shading is not perfect.



  • Zablorg
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    Zablorg polycounter lvl 3
    So, Its much better now, but I`m still have problems in the marked spot, any suggestions ?


    also, there is a N-gon at the Structure image that i don't know how to properly solve it.

    EDIT:

    So, my result is very acceptable for my standards. But i still have issues that I would like some inputs from you guys. There is a n-gon, pinched edges and the shading is not perfect.



    See where your wireframe is discontinuous in the second image? That suggests to me the two sections of this mesh haven't actually been merged.

    As for edge flow, try this:




  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    @GlowingPotato

    I'll clarify the instructions. Without references to Greek mythology, I promise.

    @Zablorg I don't see how that will do anything other than collapse the mesh into a blob.
  • Zablorg
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    Zablorg polycounter lvl 3
    perna said:
    @GlowingPotato

    I'll clarify the instructions. Without references to Greek mythology, I promise.

    @Zablorg I don't see how that will do anything other than collapse the mesh into a blob.
    What will?

    Your subdivision image shows the edges aren't flowing into each other, which tells me you've either got two meshes, or a single mesh that isn't sealed. I'm saying you need to seal it up.
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    Zablorg said:
    @Zablorg I don't see how that will do anything other than collapse the mesh into a blob.
    What will?

    Your suggestion will lead to the following. A blob, or "melted" or however you wish to describe it.



  • Zablorg
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    Zablorg polycounter lvl 3
    perna said:
    Zablorg said:
    @Zablorg I don't see how that will do anything other than collapse the mesh into a blob.
    What will?

    Your suggestion will lead to the following. A blob, or "melted" or however you wish to describe it.



    Ah, you're correct inasfar as the corners of the cube will be blobbed out, yeah. I forgot that this flow isn't good for that. The only difference between what I've got and what you've got is that the extrusion to the right in your image is not going to be co-planar when interfacing with the cylinder.

    Not really an issue though, right? They've just gotta maintain the current edge flow on the cube's outer corners.
  • Zablorg
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    Zablorg polycounter lvl 3


    So this would be the solution, I suppose?
  • Papabless
    Could someone point out how to wrap seam around sphere in maya? Or another method to model baseball seam


  • Amiminoru
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    Amiminoru polycounter lvl 3
    Papabless said:
    Could someone point out how to wrap seam around sphere in maya? Or another method to model baseball seam





  • Mr Digital
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    Mr Digital polycounter lvl 6
    Hi, i have 3 days trying this shape, i did splines and cylinders but nothing worked, any good sould could help me?

  • Zablorg
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    Zablorg polycounter lvl 3
    Hi, i have 3 days trying this shape, i did splines and cylinders but nothing worked, any good sould could help me?
    Can you show us some of the results from the splines and cylinders?
  • Mr Digital
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    Mr Digital polycounter lvl 6
    I got something like that, but i think the result is not equal.

  • Zablorg
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    Zablorg polycounter lvl 3
    I got something like that, but i think the result is not equal.


    That looks pretty good to me! Which parts are you concerned with? You should be able to tweak the cylinder radius, etc, pretty easily to fine-tune the result.
  • Mr Digital
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    Mr Digital polycounter lvl 6
    Zablorg said:
    I got something like that, but i think the result is not equal.


    That looks pretty good to me! Which parts are you concerned with? You should be able to tweak the cylinder radius, etc, pretty easily to fine-tune the result.

    Gonna need to move a little bit down the front cylinder, thats why i guess.

  • Zablorg
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    Zablorg polycounter lvl 3
    Zablorg said:
    I got something like that, but i think the result is not equal.


    That looks pretty good to me! Which parts are you concerned with? You should be able to tweak the cylinder radius, etc, pretty easily to fine-tune the result.

    Gonna need to move a little bit down the front cylinder, thats why i guess.

    Can you not simply change the direction of the spline to achieve this?
  • Mr Digital
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    Mr Digital polycounter lvl 6
    Zablorg said:
    Zablorg said:
    I got something like that, but i think the result is not equal.


    That looks pretty good to me! Which parts are you concerned with? You should be able to tweak the cylinder radius, etc, pretty easily to fine-tune the result.

    Gonna need to move a little bit down the front cylinder, thats why i guess.

    Can you not simply change the direction of the spline to achieve this?

    Is not an editable spline anymore :( but yes, my bad watching the reference.
  • Fingus
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    Fingus polycounter lvl 9
    I had a crack at that faucet for fun. I did it with just an 8 sided cylinder and subD. 

    The intersection was just a bevel and some sliding of the verts to make a round shape, which i then extuded and then did a spherize/circularize on it to make it a perfect cylinder. When you use subD with that low level of sides it's pretty forgiving with hand massaging verts. For clean hard surface modeling I usually avoid hand tweaking stuff and instead rely on the tools to get  mathematically perfect surfaces, but for something this simple it's honestly fine. 



  • Zablorg
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    Zablorg polycounter lvl 3
    Fingus said:
    I had a crack at that faucet for fun. I did it with just an 8 sided cylinder and subD. 

    The intersection was just a bevel and some sliding of the verts to make a round shape, which i then extuded and then did a spherize/circularize on it to make it a perfect cylinder. When you use subD with that low level of sides it's pretty forgiving with hand massaging verts. For clean hard surface modeling I usually avoid hand tweaking stuff and instead rely on the tools to get  mathematically perfect surfaces, but for something this simple it's honestly fine. 




    How's the lighting on that six-sided pole btw? Looks okay from this angle and the surface seems relatively flat so I guess it's okay here?
  • Mr Whippy
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    Mr Whippy polycounter lvl 7
    From the concept sketch it looks like the angle from horizontal to down-point is more like 75-80deg, not 50-60deg.

    Also there is no seam just after the bend.

    The interior angle (underneath the bend) is sharper.

    The flip back at the nozzle end is a single radius, rather than having a flat end.


    All details, but they'll have a material impact on the methodology and topography of building this, especially if you want the surfaces to be really close to what they should be.

    I'm not sure you can get mathematically perfect with sub-d on very much. To even do a simple constant radius arc you need 5 (iirc) verts... one at each end, and then a centre point, and then ones either side to guide the curve (and even then it's not perfect)
  • Mr Digital
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    Mr Digital polycounter lvl 6
    I did a test render, but the grid is not the original :(

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