How The F*#% Do I Model This? - Reply for help with specific shapes - (Post attempt before asking)
mod
Alright, so i see time and time again that people tend have trouble doing certain things with hard-shapes and sub-d modeling. So i thought i would try something out here. I'm going to open this up to let people post a reference image of a simple, yet complicated shape(no motorcycles or tanks or stuff like that). And i will try, or maybe some of our other members can help out in this too, to give an example mesh. We'll see how it goes.
I'll make a few simple rules;
First off, if you would like help with a certain shape all you have to do is this:
1. Post an image, this can be either an example of a model you're struggling with, or simply a reference image of something you dont know how to approach.
2. You'll get better/faster help if you Include your attempt... both unsmoothed with a wireframe overlay, and smoothed with or without wires.
And secondly, if you would like to help out:
1. Include an image that has a wireframe overlay of the mesh, unsmoothed, and a smoothed shot as well with or without wires.
2. Include the object as .obj. If you do not have webhosting, simply zip the file and attach it to your post.
3. Multiple people can contribute to the same ref, if you think you have a better way, feel free to post. This is all about sharing ideas.
Subdivision Surface Modeling on the Polycount Wiki
Shared: My Technical Talk content by Perna
How u model dem shapes? Image Ripped! by cookedpeanut
I'll make a few simple rules;
First off, if you would like help with a certain shape all you have to do is this:
1. Post an image, this can be either an example of a model you're struggling with, or simply a reference image of something you dont know how to approach.
2. You'll get better/faster help if you Include your attempt... both unsmoothed with a wireframe overlay, and smoothed with or without wires.
And secondly, if you would like to help out:
1. Include an image that has a wireframe overlay of the mesh, unsmoothed, and a smoothed shot as well with or without wires.
2. Include the object as .obj. If you do not have webhosting, simply zip the file and attach it to your post.
3. Multiple people can contribute to the same ref, if you think you have a better way, feel free to post. This is all about sharing ideas.
Subdivision Surface Modeling on the Polycount Wiki
Shared: My Technical Talk content by Perna
How u model dem shapes? Image Ripped! by cookedpeanut
Replies
http://willc3d.com/files/objects/booster.obj
You seem to be asking a little more about workflow stuff, so i'll share a couple good rules i try to use.
First off, to avoid having to deal with very small edges, try and block out all of your shapes before you go back in and add in your edges to keep hard edges, this will make your model a lot cleaner to deal with while you're still nailing down the shape. In addition to that, do not be afraid to remove some of those edges loops when you need to change your shapes up, because often times they are easier to add back in than they are to deal with in a clean fashion.
Secondly, to deal with the problem of having small parts too close to each other(i assume you mean the seams in the panels here?) feel free to physically break those parts off and throw them in a new layer/object so that you can edit them independently of the rest of your mesh. When modeling i try to use as many parts as possible, especially when it comes down to parts that have natural seams like this. I often split my stuff into multiple objects because i need more or less resolution out of certain areas as well. So i may have a basically cylindrical shape in one area, but it could be 12 sides in one spot, and 64 sides in another depending on what level of detail it needs locally.
Ya, I tend to make my low poly (or A lower poly) version first. Then start adding definition where I want/need it. Often, rather than extrude a small amount, extrude a large amount, then extrude another small amount again, it's easier to just extrude the total distance you want, then select one of the edges, ring it, and use the connect dialog to cut all the way around/through, but allow you to position that cut where you want.
I'll probably have something more later when I get home
Vig, just commit to your model, do it all in the base modifier.
i just realized i trolled the wrong thread!
I think there are plenty of resources for zbrush stuff if thats what you're looking for, i want to keep this thread focused on mechanical sub-d stuff. Now as far as modeling something like that by hand, whew, the simple answer to that is its a shit-ton of work. You just have to do it! I just happen to have a corrinthian pillar i did here for work that i can post some images of, i cant post the obj tho for obvious reasons.
In modo what i do is select the edge loop, and hit "remove" instead of "delete". This is really easy and really clean, and can be very useful for other things too(lods because it retains uvs etc). I dont know about max specifically, but i think it has the same features.
Like a lot of solutions to complicated mesh with sub-ds, sometimes the answer is just to throw more geometry at it! since you want to retain those curves you have, the # of sides shouldn't = the inset features, it should be more, in this case i used 3 sides per indent, then added in some padding edges around each indent, then beveled padding edges around the shape, and added edges to retain the shape etc. And then finally, remove the excess loops so you dont have sharp edges every 3 sides. Thus creating NGONS!!! MWUAHAHAHA
I have a list of modifiers that was listed by Kevin Johnstone's thread, the UE3 gears of war titled thread, he said these were the common modifiers he used when making high poly sculpts.
Shell
Bevel
FFD x2/3/4
STL Check
Loft
Path Deform WSM
Bend
Cross Section
Surface
CS Slide
personally I dont understand the functionality/common uses for the following, and the rest I have used but am unaware of potential common uses/pitfalls...
STL Check
Cross Section
Surface
CS Slide
I think this has a lot to do with Illusions question as well. I believe that because these modifiers are typically used so well by pros, people think that many objects, are actually all the same sphere or primitive shape, which is of course the intension, but really, these sub-d high poly models are commonly many many objects as EQ has mentioned in the Kawe thread.
It would be beneficial I think to point out where and how within a mesh or sculpt these modifiers were used, and also where someone can end up in trouble if the modifier was used in a rookie way. Can you ruin the CoG of an object, or get undesired future results by using the modifier inaccurately.
He's probably wondering how to retain form on your curved objects when adding more divisions. I'd say just start from the beginning that way if you can, but for purely round edges, sometimes you can use a spherify modifier on a selection of the edges in Max.
Yes, exactly!, some examples of how to practically use modifiers in Sub-d would help immensely. I understand what you mean by saying the quote above, but specific examples where you used it to create the specific shape you created, like EQ has done, would be great! And it would show where people such as yourself have used this technique for success. The fact that it is possible, is one thing, I can use any modifier on any object for example, but showing where this is typically used would go much further to new users of the modifier, and help people realize a practical use for it.
I think that seeing these examples will show people common uses for the modifiers so they can use it in the same way, to start, then later, once they understand a successful useage for the modifier, they will be able to find more uncommon uses for themselves.
im gonna jump in with some maya action if you peeps dont mind, seas a little to max orientated at the mo.
CTRL+Backspace is max default shortcut to remove edge and get rid of vertices.
click me
I use Q for edge loops , W for edge ring and CTRL+ALT+C as collapse for shortcuts (just to let you know as it might be confusing)
STL modifier highlight / select holes of bunch of 'errors' on your mesh...many options, try it.
CSSlide is to slide edge loops...altho I use max's edge constraint and move them to the top, they collide to other edges and stop (that is what I like about it). and then I move them back a bit (that if I want to have the shape of the edge loop above wich is not always the case).
Cool thread!
Feel free man, i'm trying to keep the stuff i talk about as application-independent possible, so anyone willing to translate specifics to specific apps will be well appreciated.
Everything has a bevel/extrude/remove/cut/slice/constrain tool these days, right?
ive been learning mayas "propper" subD modeling tools not the proxy mesh stuff (or smoothmesh) which is a poor relation to maxes modifier based subD in both terms of functionality and in speed (just a simple mesh smoothed to a decent degree will slow down after just a couple of edge insertions)
basic operation of this has two modes which is waht im having problems with at the moment.
proxy mode in which you alter the mesh add loops add extrusions etc
standard mode which you use to crease the mesh, a complete crease is like using maxes smoothing groups and a partial crease is half way in between, pulling the shape into a more prescise corner (like adding edgeloops in max but without doing so
one real good thing about using this method is that you end up with a much more consistent mesh in terms of the poly grid it produces, which is much better for using in sculpting programs for 2 reasons
1- less discrepency between a flat surface and a sharpened edge means less polys are needed to get detail on those flat surfaces
2- less stretching and warping when a stamps details crosses between a flat surface and an edge
heres an example of shape made in this mode, making edge loops sharper by going up the display levels and partially creasing.
now if i made a similar shape using just a proxy mesh, added edge loops to tighten corners you get something more like this (on left, creased subD on right)
now this is all well and good, but Im having some workflow issues with it,
most major one at the moment is that i cant select edge loops in this mode and switching modes requires you to go to object mode thus getting rid of your selection. and selecting edges while having both meshes on screen can be painfull to see whats going on etc. this is especially true when selecting edges a few levels up.
any ideas and tips on working in this mode would be great, as im quite enjoying it but find it frustarting at the same time.
ps if any/all of this is bollox feel free to put me right, im pretty new to SubD in maya
Keep in mind that all the while that this is going to be modeled into a curved surface. Everything I've tried results in really bad geometry.
http://www.iddevnet.com/quake4/ArtReference_CreatingModels
(see the screenshots at the end of the "Modeling Your Character" section)
time to prepare a mesh
http://projects.godisregn.com/randomimgs/doorhandle.obj
Also this thread needs more examples so I might as well toss this in here
I'd change that things on the topology.
And this is a model with some examples of hard surface modelling tips i've earned by experience in years LOL. This is how i solve all those common problems.
Similar example Earthquake put, but without pentagons. They are very very useful, but not always (like tris in game modelling
This is the same mesh subdivided x1, look at the polygon tension, and how is the smooth. Now with pentagons.
And subdivided once.
The result is good, but not optimal
Don't be lazy a close your bad cyls...
Now something that can be done very quick with nurbs, also with Subdivs
This is the fast way, quad only. Can be done with pentagons for a better or optimal result, it depends of us.
Subdivided x1, look at the red points i marked, and the pentagon you usually don't see. In this example there's a bit of tension in the mesh. If we use pentagons, we move those red verts in a different location for a best result. This is what i mean:
Pentagon Technique for the win, and subdivided x1.
The result
Anticipation on Subdivion modelling is something we must do. If you know how will be the result, you can build cleaner meshes (with subidvs we usually don't need to have very detailed meshes).
Things like this makes your model smart :P. I like to care details!
hope this helps!
PD: i could have optimized the mesh but it was something fast to show some tricks and tips. heh, it's nice to see more modo users
cut out a polygon a little larger then what you want for your key tumbeler. Detach it from your mesh.
Then take that polygon, inset till you have a square inside it thats a little larger then the hole you will need for the key then delete that inside polygon.
Create your key tumbeler as a seperate object then just set it into the rest of the model. This way you would still keep your nice doorknob "plate" thingy from getting inadvertantly messed up.
Pardon the mispellings Im in a hurry
8 sides for cyls and holes are better than 4.
Also, removing the edges at the point you suggest will give worse results. Try it
It depends of us. When i model, i like to have things solid and smart.
I would hope the ultimate goal from everyone here is to have a quicker and more efficient workflow, not cling to some silly bragging rights that you obtain by modeling "solid and smart".
With normal map modelling, flotating meshes are something fast, but what happens when we are modelling for a still, a true subdiv model? eh? then, we have some technical problems. This is not the reason for the thread?
Anyways, do what you want. I just pointed out some tips. I would be glad if they are helpful.
Here more from another spaniard guy:
http://www.etereaestudios.com/training_img/subd_tips/index.htm
Cool link too man.
http://www.etereaestudios.com/training_img/subd_tips/vmap_falloff.htm
How does this guy get this photoshop brush/spline/shape into his 3d program? I don't speak spanish.
looks like he's importing illustrator paths and turning them into polygons. I'm pretty sure most major 3d packages can import paths from illustrator in one way or another.
if you can't do that you can always create a guide that you can trace within your 3d package.
Im interested in the shapes in pers new model, such as the armour and weapon. When I go for flowing, interconnecting shapes they tend to come out kinda lumpy. I don't have any examples to hand but is there any general tips on keeping flowing type geom clean and even looking? is it straight up eyeballing or is there some technique to it
Great thread anyways! I love me some random tech bits, yummy.