Following Along - Summer Character Workshop - Female Knight

PyrZern

UPDATED: It's done.



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ORIGINAL POST:

So, welp, I wasn't one of the Chosen few for Gir's character workshop. No matter, I intend to get the most out of this regardless.  So, this thread will be my follow along to what they are doing, in almost real time... 1-2 days delayed, maybe.  I'd stick to the same workflow and pipeline.


THE REAL SUMMER CHARACTER WORKSHOP PARTICIPANTS
Lee Devonald: http://polycount.com/discussion/174008/summer-character-workshop-swordswoman-potential-nudity-warning#latest
Joe Atilano: http://polycount.com/discussion/174026/summer-character-workshop-most-high-ceoptra#latest
Tom Lishman: http://polycount.com/discussion/174043/summer-character-workshop-nemesis-demon#latest
Shana Vandercruysse: http://polycount.com/discussion/174047/summer-character-workshop-the-baker#latest
Sanna Kempe: http://polycount.com/discussion/174058/summer-character-workshop-the-swordmaster#latest
Nathaniel Ramsey: http://polycount.com/discussion/174074/summer-character-workshop-illaoi-fanart#latest
Stevie Cole: http://polycount.com/discussion/174109/summer-workshop-neko-mancer#latest



With that out of the way, let's go.

For the concept art, I pick a Female Knight piece by Kyoung Hwan Kim / https://www.artstation.com/artwork/lrk15

The concept looks like fun. Somewhat elegant, somewhat interesting design, and the thought of translating all that into 3d excites me.   

So... break it down.
8.5 head tall. (9 head if counting the helmet decoration). Legs noticeably longer than body. (typical portrayal of women in fantasy... or anywhere else)  There aren't a lot of materials here... Silky cloths, less silky cloths, steel armors, leather straps, and whatever her gauntlets/gloves are made of. Looks like thick fabric to me. Or could be some fine leather.



Extra Notes:
* Welp, no hair cards.
* No facial features.
* Barely any skin visible (boobs).
* Coming up with the design on the back will be fun.
* High heels, hhhhhnng.

lotet

Wuhu! your getting there!
I think you should scale the head and the hands back up again tbh, especially the hands, they are looking super tiny at the moment, the fingers could probably be fattened up a tad too.

I would also rise the arms up about 10°, trust me its gonna make your life easier in the future. 

as for sculpting the metal, depending on what your looking for you might not have to, unless your going for a wow/Darksiders look I think most of the metal work can be done in the textures. and for that stuff the Orb brushes are probably your best bet. 

I would also spend some time getting the weight of her legs a bit better, now it looks a bit like she is floating. Remember she is on high heals. so she is standing on her toes, which means:
- legs straight (you can still have a slight angle for rigging purposes.).
- hips forward. 
- upper body curved backwards
. overall center of gravity further back, basically legs further back.
quick PO to illustrate what I mean.

PyrZern

More S curve to the body, got it :P  

Surprisingly, I only scaled down the hands and the head for just a little bit. Shouldn't look at much different from before... Maybe it's the darker lighting/tone that make things slimmer ??

PyrZern

Hmm, close to calling the sculpt done ???
Will smooth a few things out, and adjust the shape of some of the armor pieces. Not so sure about the helmet decorations.....

BIG Img link - http://i.imgur.com/Prt3uCR.jpg

lotet

Its looking really good man, proportions and overall design is really getting there, def your best work so far!

some minor nitpicks:
the hands are still very small in my opinion, the fingers feel both to short and to thin.
the legs are a bit to big, maybe scale them down about 5-10%.
on top of that I think you should either pull down the visir and commit to the design, or the face needs a lot more love.

BagelHero

Loving the progress being made. Its looking pretty great. You need to fix her heels though, they just aren't working at the moment.
They usually have kind of a distinct way the heel is attaches, right now yours looks like she'd be slipping all over the place and doesn't compliment the design at that. It's kind of pointing away from the front of the shoe, and the sole doesn't really have a firm plant anywhere which makes it look floaty and impractical.

Quick P/O

PyrZern

@lotet

Too late man. I really like the silhouette of the open visor vs closed down... So it's all just improving what I have now.

.

When you say her face needs more love, do you mean more facial features. Or you mean skin details ?




Also adjusted her bodyweight further, and pushed for that s curved to her silhouette. Touched a bit of her feet, will see if I can push it some more as well.

lotet

Well first of it looks way better now in your latest renders >,<

BUT there are still some minor things you can do.
I made a quick PO to show what I mean, the shapes are there, just not enough of them I think. I do want to point out you should be proud of what you have, it does look really good, def your best face so far.
then for the body, I did a quick headcount, and your up to almost 10 heads you crazy person xD
Instead of making her shorter I think you should make her head and hands bigger, because the proportions are overall good and I think you shouldnt mess around with that o much.

I also pushed in her hips a tad, not to make her thinner, but simply to correct the ange and anatomy of the waist.
if you want to, you can achieve the same result by pushing the hips and shoulders out a bit instead if you think that fits better.

PyrZern

ROFL! Yeah, I realized the previous renders was a bit shitty. So I went back and changed the lighting around a bit.  Nice curve to the face there, I'll work on that !! I got extra help from Lee on the face sculpt. So it's def his credit.

Now, regarding the head/body ratio :P  Originally planned for 8.5 head (including heels), her head might have become a bit smaller over the multiple iterations and such... I will look more into this as well.  4th head still lines up with her crotch, though... Hmm

PyrZern

Just realized her chest armor looks funny from 3/4. Gotta fix that next. Also still gonna give her her gloves.  Also pulled her visor up higher so we can see her eyebrows. 

PyrZern

I picked up a part time job earlier this week. So, I've been a bit more busy. Anyhow....

Slowly working on the lowpoly (skin) and texture. Gonna make lowpoly of the cloth next.
Oh, also made new hair strands. Eye texture is placeholder atm.

almighty_gir

now that she's got some colour, i hope you can see what i was saying with the artificial hard line on the jaw. It makes everything look really unnatural, even if you're going for a stylized/anime look, it really doesn't need to be there.

for example:


Notice that there is no harsh line sculpted in, and yet:


The end result has really awesome shading.

PyrZern

almighty_gir said:

Snip;

Yup. I can kinda see what you mean now :P I think I am so used to it that it doesn't really stand out to me anymore. 

lotet

Looking good, keep it up. hope your part time job dosnt burn you out to bad

Jakob Gavelli

I did a thing. Sorry, If I'm late to the party. ^^ It looks great!

I think one of the most striking things about the concept is the thin waist - broad shoulderpads and slim and striking helmet (and huge elbows, heh). Adding all that metal, the hinges and enlarging the visir to make it more realistic and practical kind of kills it for me. 
It looks like your shoulders are smaller and the helm i bigger, which looks more realistic for sure, but as I said I thought it was one of the defining features of the concept.

The concept is actually very soft and curvy, except for very specific parts in order to create a contrast. The helm, shoulders, knees and boots are very pointy, whilst the elbow, hip- and body armor is soft and curvy. Making them also pointy as you've done also kind of kills the contrast and the lines.

Maybe you're planning to make major changes in the Sculpt, in that case, rock on!

Your execution is brilliant! I'm just questioning the design choices where you've strayed from the concept. If you really want to make a face, I think the choice of concept may have been poor, or maybe make a version with and without a helmet entirely. I'm just really worried at the moment that the overall design will kill the model and in the end it will only result in one of those "Good, but not great" characters.

PyrZern

I'm having some troubles with quite a few pieces, in that if I match it to the concept in 3/4, it they don't look so good in sideview or frontview. Especially the big armor plate around her neck. That one is very hard to make it look good from very direction.   Gonna adjust the shoulder pads next. They are quite tricky as well.  Will see about her face/helmet.

PyrZern

If someone told me last year I would have easier time sculpting cloths than armors, I would probably laugh in your face... I remade the shoulder pieces a few times now; this one is the closest one to the concept.  Its shape is so WEIRD I can't quite put my fingers on it.

Big IMG

Shyralon

This character is getting better and better everytime I look at this thread
Really like what you have done with the armor and especially the cloth, big improvement.

What's currently bothering me the most is the face (this might be completly irrelevant as the face might not be visible anyways).
The overall head shape seems to be wrong, the angle at the chin could be sharper and the mouth and eyes appear kinda flat - maybe pull the mouthcorners back to suggest the roundness of the lips?
(crappy image done without tablet to hopefully shiw what I mean - however I am not that experienced with anatomy, so better ask a few more people)

PyrZern

Guess who just gave very similar advice + paintover to someone else's WIP  xD   LMFAO.
Tunnel vision is a scary thing.

I realized the  Perspective was on, so that screenshot was off a bit. But I did a quick adjustment regardless. Most will be blocked by her helmet, but I still like to do it right, nonetheless.  The ears and chin were big blunder on my part.

I will adjust some more when I get back after my PT job.......

Quick Fix. More later.

PyrZern

So these are after some changes to the shapes of the armors to better follow the concept art... Gonna polish them up next. 

Question; any idea why the shadows are... in strips like that ?? (example; at the spike on her helmet.)

almighty_gir

if this is rendered in Toolbag, it's likely an issue with shadow map resolution. make sure the scene units match up with your model.

PyrZern

I see. I think I got it now. Thanks !!!

I'm so so so ready for retop now, lol. But there are still a few more armor pieces I think I can do better.

PyrZern

And there we go.

lotet

Nice work! good luck with the retop, looks like a lot of work 

TomGT

Latest updates look cool! All the best with retopo.

tda

Good input from everyone so far, it's come a long way! I'm not an expert at painting, nor faces, but i feel like the face you have needs to be stronger if you're going to have it on display so i attempted a quick paintover to show my thoughts. I think i conveyed what i wanted to.


The planes of the face seem okay in some shots and weak in others, i can't really tell if they need work or not but it's something to look at. The pinched tip of the nose is odd, you can have a pointed, almost sculpted looking nose but the tip will always have some roundness to it. In a nutshell though you just need to work on the eyes, they really need some love. Get lots of ref of real and stylised eyes and go to town. Biggest problems are lack of eyelids and the tear duct. Be aware to hide the top of the iris too, when you have a full iris visible it makes your character look super wide eyed and crazed. Also make sure you reference eye makeup when you paint the final polypaint and don't just make it up, it's pretty easy to get wrong. I did some other small tweaks to the proportions of the face too but that's personal preference and up to you if you want to take notice of. The main thing is the eyes.

Keep it up man, you're really making strides with this proj!

PyrZern

Interesting PO there. I like what you did, but I couldn't quite understand how you get there.... Especially the eyes :P  It's always the eyes to me.

I think I'm gonna need to exaggerate more details...

Brian "Panda" Choi

The eyelashes look bad.  Clump it up like mascara does.  Right now it's reading more like scilia of an underwater creature.

Alemja

Even if you decide to go the natural route, eyelashes don't have an even length on the top and bottom. The density is almost always has more on the top and less on the bottom. Fake eyelashes can change all of that of course, but try to understand how they flow better:



The eyebrows also look very "choppy" to me, it feels like you are also having a problem understanding the flow for them as well:


This is also an observation, but your skin and colors always seem to lean more towards yellow on your models, perfectly fine if you are intending for that, however since it seems to be a trend I would examine that further and maybe make the skin just a little bit cooler.

Best of luck!

PyrZern

Thanks much for the ref !!  I'm also using this for the sideview.



Indeed I'm experimenting with her skin color and the hue/tone of it. Though I might make some mistake with the skin shader as well. Gonna play around with it some more.

Did a first pass on the eyelashes and eyebrows. Think I place her eyes a bit further apart, so gonna change that next.

Wendy de Boer

It's better than before, but the lower eyelashes should be finer still. Also notice on the reference how the eyelashes become thinner, shorter and more sparse the closer they get to the inner corner of the eye.

Ged

Good progress! the nostrils seem a bit too lumpy in my opinion, they could be blended in more towards the tip of the nose. The jawline might be a bit too sharp too.

PyrZern

I think the eyelashes are in too much of a pattern there... Gonna mess them up a bit more. (is that a technical term ??) ... Debating between red hair, or brown hair...

Ged

the eyes/face is a big improvement! well done, this character design is a big task, youre doing really well

PyrZern

Started on the lowpoly. The armors are making things harder than they have to be. Most of them require thickness to appear nice, and that is eating up on the tri count. And I am not sure if I should keep bevels or not. Wouldn't look as good without them bevels, but, again, tri count. 

lotet

Its 2016. you can probably keep the bevels.  
whats your current polycount?

PyrZern

@lotet
Almost a whooping 40k tris atm. I still can and will clean up some pieces, though.  I bet I can cut 1-2 thousands tris from the shoulder and the hip pieces .

pior

Add a strip of polygons with a gradient alpha along the edge of the top eyelid, thus creating a fake cast shadow on the eyeball. This will make the eyes come to life instantly. It would even work without a gradual transition (say, simply using 50% transparency with hard polygon edges) .

rage288

Nice progress!

Wendy de Boer

PyrZern said:

@lotet
Almost a whooping 40k tris atm. I still can and will clean up some pieces, though.  I bet I can cut 1-2 thousands tris from the shoulder and the hip pieces .

I think that's fine. Lately, most of the characters I've worked on professionally have been upwards of 80k.

TomGT

Great progress! Yeah I wouldn't worry about tri count at all like @Wendy de Boer mentioned. 40k tris is quite modest especially for a full armored character like this. 

I'd just focus on clean topology all around and maintaining a similar density overall as needed.

PyrZern

Thanks guys for the feedback  I'm continuing the retop.

@pior  Gonna try that now for sure ! Just let me wrap up the retop first. Or should I do the same with the sculpt as well ?


Also was exploring her style in between my retop sesions.... Yeah, I like red hair. Too big to fit inside the helmet, though.   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

pior

Well, in general my philosophy is to work non-linearly - that is to say, bringing the sculpted parts into a regular 3d program as early as possible in order to be able to assemble everything there as opposed to being stuck in zbrush (and thus not being able to preview things like they will look in the end)

So my advice would be for you to bring a decimated version of the head sculpt (probably with UVmaster UVs and polypaint baked to that) into your 3d program now, so that you can start setting up all these subtle things (eyelashes, fake alpha shadows, even starting to think of the mouth interior setup, and so on). The goal should be to avoid being stuck in "Zbrush limbo" as much as possible - especially for human faces which require a lot more than just sculpting to get right and "lively". That will also allow you to check the bust in real perspective with various lenses as opposed to having to deal with the Zbrush viewport which is always very misleading.

PyrZern

Heyyyyy, sorry I disappeared like that. I pulled my muscles and also had pretty bad lower back pain. Couldn't really sit and work at my workstation. Took me some time to recover. 

However, I was also checking out the new Marmoset Toolbag 3 Beta. The Baker is sweet, and I'm loving it. 
Already baked the clothes and her skin. So will move on to her armors next.  Will see if I can do nice hairplanes under her helmet. (need more hair cards currently). Haven't really touched on her skin color variation/detail yet.

Ps. Might have to re-sculpt her abs and bellybutton area...

PyrZern

Lowpoly and UV'ing are going well. Just a few more pieces.

lotet

Whoop whoop!
keep it up!

PyrZern

Texturing @_@
Screen-grab from substance painter. Base materials so far. This will not be easy... Armors in the concept don't really appear... reflective, though. Looks like dull metal or painted, or grinded on, or hammered, or something.

Elithenia

Looking good there! 
Great to see how you're getting on!

lotet

I dont think painter is the best representation for metal, esp not shiny metal. I would pop that thing into marmoset and put on some AO+local reflections and double check it from time to time.

CaesarAlbertus

Really great work want to see her finished
Cheers¡¡¡

PyrZern

I worked on the materials further, then threw it into Toolbag for render :P

AO is barely there because I lower the world light to almost bare nothing, then use spotlights instead... Is that wise ?

Global Reflection is too... reflect-y... Damn those armors... So I killed it off, for now.  

This is pretty much still a stylized piece, so I won't put in lots of face/skin details. Any advice is welcome at this point :P