Following Along - Summer Character Workshop - Female Knight

PyrZern

UPDATED: It's done.



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ORIGINAL POST:

So, welp, I wasn't one of the Chosen few for Gir's character workshop. No matter, I intend to get the most out of this regardless.  So, this thread will be my follow along to what they are doing, in almost real time... 1-2 days delayed, maybe.  I'd stick to the same workflow and pipeline.


THE REAL SUMMER CHARACTER WORKSHOP PARTICIPANTS
Lee Devonald: http://polycount.com/discussion/174008/summer-character-workshop-swordswoman-potential-nudity-warning#latest
Joe Atilano: http://polycount.com/discussion/174026/summer-character-workshop-most-high-ceoptra#latest
Tom Lishman: http://polycount.com/discussion/174043/summer-character-workshop-nemesis-demon#latest
Shana Vandercruysse: http://polycount.com/discussion/174047/summer-character-workshop-the-baker#latest
Sanna Kempe: http://polycount.com/discussion/174058/summer-character-workshop-the-swordmaster#latest
Nathaniel Ramsey: http://polycount.com/discussion/174074/summer-character-workshop-illaoi-fanart#latest
Stevie Cole: http://polycount.com/discussion/174109/summer-workshop-neko-mancer#latest



With that out of the way, let's go.

For the concept art, I pick a Female Knight piece by Kyoung Hwan Kim / https://www.artstation.com/artwork/lrk15

The concept looks like fun. Somewhat elegant, somewhat interesting design, and the thought of translating all that into 3d excites me.   

So... break it down.
8.5 head tall. (9 head if counting the helmet decoration). Legs noticeably longer than body. (typical portrayal of women in fantasy... or anywhere else)  There aren't a lot of materials here... Silky cloths, less silky cloths, steel armors, leather straps, and whatever her gauntlets/gloves are made of. Looks like thick fabric to me. Or could be some fine leather.



Extra Notes:
* Welp, no hair cards.
* No facial features.
* Barely any skin visible (boobs).
* Coming up with the design on the back will be fun.
* High heels, hhhhhnng.

PyrZern

Basic anatomy/silhouette. Again, 95% of her body will be covered in armors... Though I do intend to make her face, and that she can pull up her helmet's visor up.  So, I will make her face, and her hair as well. I will mostly get the rest of the anatomy details in after the retopology. That's what everyone doing on the WORKSHOP, though. But for me, I will mostly like have bunch of small pieces floating around, instead of baking em all to the body.

Editor's Note :  Haaaaaannnnddssss, hhhnnnggg.

Started from a sphere.
Time Lapse (21 seconds) - https://gfycat.com/GlamorousTestyGiantschnauzer

almighty_gir

Hey man!

So pumped to see someone else following along! You've chosen a really interesting concept in terms of shapes/forms. And while sure she's covered in armour, this is a really good opportunity for you to figure out how to carry across core anatomical knowledge to a stylised shape.

Really push the forms, and don't lose them just because they don't conform to the standard rules, because they still look correct when they're all put together.

Here's a little paintover:

PyrZern

Thanks for dropping by !
I just did the retop of the body. So I will get to adjust the shape and form next now.  There might not be enough poly in some areas, if so I would just add more loops in zbrush. 

PyrZern

Started visualizing her helmet.  

Seems that's my generic go-to female face..... I will look around for some nice face ref to match what I have in mind......    Or maybe make a hideous face under the helmet instead.... We will see.

PyrZern

Visualizing the armors. I tried quite a few patterns for the dress, and I think it makes the most sense separating the top piece from the bottom. Probably gonna make it less revealing though. Especially the back.

lotet

hey, nice job so far!
the overall curves and flow could still be pushed I think, the front view is looking pretty good, but the side view could still use some work, especially the lower legs.  anyways, keep at it, subbed and gonna try to crit you as much as I can.

PS: the cloth folds on the front are looking really sweet!

PyrZern

Thanks man ^^  I realize I have to make thin and shallow wrinkles for the cloths for this one, and not big or deep folds. So gotta resculpt later :P 

The hip armors appear kinda weird in design, so I'm working on that atm. Still missing half of the hip guards.  I did make some changes to her anatomy and proportions, will show that next time.

Ps. Her butt might be too big........

Elithenia

Wow this is coming along really really well! 
Happy to see your progress!  

lotet

I dont think her but is too big, but her overall lower body is too large compared to the torso and head. I would take everything from the hip down and scale it down about 5% and see how that looks. how closly do you want to follow the concept? right now the hips are looking quite  differnet from the concept, especially the armor there.  overall I think your drifting away from the concept quite a bit to be honest. If you where given this piece from a concept artist and I where your art director I would tell you to start over again, no offense mate.
I made some comparisons from your latest WIP and the concept, hope you dont mind.
I think you would benefit a lot by putting the concept next to your sculpt, and draw out some horisontal lines and see where they line up

PyrZern

Thanks man. And, no offense at all. Though I don't think a restart is necessary over something of this minor scale that could be fixed within a few iterations. I will slim her down some more and see how it goes.   Personally I want to really follow the concept art this time.  The hip armors are giving me some trouble atm yeah. I couldn't get the red parts to work out nicely yet... They end up looking funny. Only the blue part of the hipguards is shown in the progress so far.  I will most likely change the way I analyze the hip armors go at it from another angle.

PyrZern

I got extra helps the other day, and I think I made some good progress here.
Going to continue blocking in pieces of armors, clothes, and adjust them to match the concept art; before cleaning them up. Cloth folding will probably be the last to get done properly.

Here's a render... to celebrate this minor milestone.

lotet

Hey! looking much better!
I still think you need to do some major proportion tweaks, but your definitely getting there!

also:  +1 for the clay render.  

PyrZern

I mostly focus on her legs today. Holy crap; she's borderline ancient Chinese lotus feet... I slimmed it down like 15% at least; and still bigger than in the concept.

Anyway; I'm going to shift my focus to her shoulder guards now.  I notice that in the concept; her shoulder guard and her upper arm guards are more ... aligned; almost look like a continuation of each other. Whereas mine; they are completely separated pieces. I will play around with this more tomorrow.

PyrZern

Made some changes to her hip armors; to have that flare look around her it. Will show that next time.

Got extra help from Lee on her face; so that's where I spent lots of time on. Face still not finalized, of course. But I got some anatomy issue out of the way; (and some more to go). 

However, main question I have at the moment is ...... hardsurface armors.  Even after uncreasing at higher subdiv, and smooth for 2 more subdiv levels, that damn thing still looks blocky. (very easy to see what has been hardsurfaced, and what hasn't) And the issue is.......... I seem to have preferred them not hardsurfaced. Feels more like something blacksmiths would hammer them out piece by piece... And not plasma cut in a factory or something.

Could use some inputs here.

Amaury

Have you tried polishing with the slider in the deformation palette ? You can still make some nice hand made chamfers using trim dynamic to give it a more natural look if you want.

Something that bugs me is that your pieces of armor look very thick. While it would be suitable for some warhammer/WoW inspired aesthetic, the concept feels more realistic, refined and almost "royal". An armor that only the best knights could acquire.

lotet

I would put the helmet visir down before I start working on it.  its gonna be much easier to match with the concept if you have it in the same pose.

PyrZern

Amaury Great point man. I believe you're dead-on correct on this. Finely crafted thin armors for nobility it is, then.

@lotet  The visor is down when I mess around with it

One thing I'm not so sure; is if I'm too stingy on the lowpoly for hardsurface... If I could add more geo on the mesh so it doesn't appear so blocky and like a toy.

lotet

Visir is looking much better! your getting there!
as for the lowpoly, I think its important to be consistent, have about the same density all over, whatever thats a lot of polygons or not.

Do you have an approximate final polycount? that usually answers that question for you.

PyrZern

lotet said:

Visir is looking much better! your getting there!
as for the lowpoly, I think its important to be consistent, have about the same density all over, whatever thats a lot of polygons or not.

Do you have an approximate final polycount? that usually answers that question for you.

An issue I will most likely have is; I don't think my hardsurface lowpoly will be the final lowpoly for game-engine ready mesh ...

lotet

@pyrzern - well then I dont see the problem, just have as many loops as you want to, ur use he dynamic sub-D with creases.

PyrZern

Here's a little update. I think I've found a better way to make armors look better, and cleaner, and not like a toy. I've optimized topology of the upper body armors now. Will move on to her hip armors next.
.... Might be too small, guess I will take bigger screenshot next time.

Amaury

That's looking sooo much better !

I'd reduce the thickness of the elbow armors as well, I'm sure you were going to do it, but at the same time enlarge the openings as well so their shape affect the silhouette more. Speaking about silhouette don't forget the spike thingy she has on top of her helmet, it's longer in the concept and adds more aggressiveness. I don't wanna be annoying but I like the 7 triangular holes in the helmet from the concept, again these are part of the whole spiky, aggressive looking character design.

Also I think you went too far with the cloth folds, what's great about cloth for a knight design is that they can provide nice planar shapes contrasting with the complexity of the armor which serve as a resting area for the eyes. Besides, that cloth has no reason to compress that much and it's just going to add you more work in the retopology.

You may want to take this with a grain of salt but it's an occasion to test cloth simulation using marvelous designer or even the physx plug-in for whatever software you use. I tried it for fun and it does the job. You're just gonna need a lot of polys to make it beautiful but a lot of games nowadays use a high polycount on capes and stuff like that to rely on the engine's physics. The pro of using MD is that you can retopo super fast and clean using a method Ljabli Salim made a great breakdown about on Artstation : https://www.artstation.com/artwork/0BzeY

PyrZern

Oh shlt. The helmet visor holes are upside down tri shape... not rectangular.   

Have to admit I haven't played much with cloth sim. So much to do, and so many things to learn.

Amaury

Figured it would be better if I did this

PyrZern

Sweeeet ! Thanks much for doing this !! I just did a first pass reworking the cloth. Will go through them again when I got all armors remade.
Just hardsurfaced the hip armor pieces as well. And the helmet visors(separated pieces for now, will merge later). And the head spikey thing.

Big image here - http://i.imgur.com/gysCB2z.jpg

Amaury

Damn this is coming along nicely ! Look on the concept the ziggzaggy pieces on the arms; they get smaller and smaller the closer they are to the elbows.

I suggest you to reward yourself with a 45 minutes break and watch Glauco Longhi's conference session at substance days if you haven't already, you'll see by yourself but I'm sure some things can apply to your project : http://livestream.com/gnomon/substance-days-at-gnomon/videos/130636532

lotet

Amaury said:

Damn this is coming along nicely ! Look on the concept the ziggzaggy pieces on the arms; they get smaller and smaller the closer they are to the elbows.

they are also more curved in the concept, following the cylindrical shape of the arm more.

PyrZern

Will take a look at the substance days vid. Thanks for the link!

I made some changes to the upper arm armor pieces... But will see if I can make it a bit more curved... Also redid the helmet and the visor as well. Also done hardsurface the hip armors and the upper thigh pieces. Gonna start on the gloves/gauntlets next.

lotet

Looking good!  
The hard surface stuff looks great. esp the hip pieces. if you can get the arm pieces on the same level of quality Its gonna be awesome!

PyrZern

Here's my first pass at the gauntlet.  Now I realize how important it is to make leather appears like leather, and cloth like cloth... While I work more on this, I'm going back to the cloth pieces, and run some pinch brush along the folds. 

Wendy de Boer

You have some nice details on the glove, but the hand shape is very alien looking. The palm should be much larger in relation to the fingers, and you need much more mass in the thumb pad. I would also have harder angles at the finger joints. The fingers look a bit too sausage-like at the moment. Lastly, you should twist the thumb inward, around its axis, by a considerable amount. It should not be at the same angle as the other fingers at all; remember how the thumb is opposable. I suggest you look carefully at your own hands, using the same pose as the model.

I also recommend you don't spread the fingers quite so far in the base pose, because then you run into a rigging problem where the palm will look too spread out once you pose the hand with the fingers together.

PyrZern

I spread the fingers more than I usually do because the last time the fingers ended up way too close together to bake properly...... But I will adjust the fingers shape first I guess.  Thanks bunch !

Wendy de Boer

You could address the baking problem by editing your cage to be very snug around the hand area, and less snug around lower resolution parts such as the arm, where you might need the cage to be larger to avoid missed rays.

Alternatively, you could render one version with a snug cage, and one with a bigger cage, and mask the resulting textures together in Photoshop as needed.

lotet

so here are some things to think about with cloth like materials. this became whay more advanced then I though, but here you go, pictures and everything!

Thick - materials like  wool have few but big folds. they also tend to be affected by gravity a lot, take a cape for example, most folds will be present at the bottom of the cape.


Thin - like silk or thin cotton, you have many fine and sharp folds, you tend to sculpt most clothes like this. Gravity wont affect the material as much, and you can have a more even spread of folds.


Sturdiness - this is where wool and leather differentiate, they are both pretty thick, but leather is harder.
if the material is sturdy, like leather it will only create folds when "stressed". so it usually stays smooth where its not folded or being affected by a strap. leather tend to have sharper cuts too since its harder.

wow, I cant type for shit haha.
EDIT: *See how the green ares are mostly smooth, but the red parts have a LOT of folds.

PyrZern

Definitely gonna go through the folds and wrinkles again now. Thanks Iotet for the visuals. 

Also did a quick silhouette test, because, yeah.
Gonna go back and adjust the upper arm armor pieces again, cuz they make silhouette looks worse. Not sure if I should also widen her chest/ribcage or not.

almighty_gir

To be honest, i think you're trying to keep everything too functional. You should be aiming to nail the awesome shapes in the concept, like the elbow plates for example, they're huuuuge in the concept and they really add to the silhouette, but it seems like you've gone "that won't work" and made them smaller.

PyrZern

Well, at least I hope practical enough so I can pose it without wanting to bang my head against the wall ? But yeah, I see what you mean. I actually just compared a few pieces to the original concept. Made some changes appropriately.   I adjusted the torso area, and the shoulder pieces as well as the upper arm pieces and the elbow piece.  The skirt piece on the back is having some identity crisis. It doesn't know if it wants to be a thick linen cloth or thin silky cloth.... Not sure which wrinkles/folds style to give.... The one on her butt.

PyrZern

Made some small changes, then started on the sword.... It's Sunday, ok :P I'm slacking off a bit.

Elithenia

I like how this is coming along! Love the details on the sword!

Leinadien

Don't take this the wrong way, you've got great skill. But why the cartoony look to it,
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Ingres_coronation_charles_vii.jpg
https://www.herodote.net/Images/jeannedarc_Rubens.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/9e/a0/cd/9ea0cd093c32a97a758f2a2ae52a2790.jpg
http://bonnier.imgix.net/2415_08_01-K7vCxCkOsDuDq3UcSsOVcA.jpg?auto=format&ixjsv=1.0.24&rect=11,0,607,420&w=750
http://images.ttcdn.co/media/i/product/121909-207443e8044949c4a0963aa31eb14867.jpeg?size=500

Wouldn't any of the pictures above be preferable?

Brian "Panda" Choi

@Leinadien
I think the original concept is erring more towards anime/manga than Western realism if anything else.  I've seen similar illustrations done for various Korean games.

almighty_gir

Leinadien said:

Don't take this the wrong way, you've got great skill. But why the cartoony look to it,
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Ingres_coronation_charles_vii.jpg
https://www.herodote.net/Images/jeannedarc_Rubens.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/9e/a0/cd/9ea0cd093c32a97a758f2a2ae52a2790.jpg
http://bonnier.imgix.net/2415_08_01-K7vCxCkOsDuDq3UcSsOVcA.jpg?auto=format&ixjsv=1.0.24&rect=11,0,607,420&w=750
http://images.ttcdn.co/media/i/product/121909-207443e8044949c4a0963aa31eb14867.jpeg?size=500

Wouldn't any of the pictures above be preferable?

woah woah woah... slow your horse there dude.

he's trying to follow along with a workshop where probably the biggest feedback i've been giving to everyone involved is: FOLLOW YOUR CONCEPT. why on earth would you tell him to start looking at european medieval imagery for reference when the original is like something from a korean MMO?

Leinadien

I'm not asking him to do anything, I have just noticed that there are a lot of talented people on here who seem to love cartoons. Personally I feel that it's a waste of talent, and I think I'm allowed to think that without having to be told to slow your horses. Maybe those pictures will inspire him, if not keep up the good work.

almighty_gir

Oh so what you're trying to do is enforce your own personal preference into other people's work... Why is any particular style any more or less a use of talent than another?

(Sorry to derail your thread here Pyrzern).

Leinadien

Don't tell me you have no idea why museums are littered with realistic art and not cartoons. Anyway this isn't the place to discuss this, looking great Pyrzern.

PyrZern

Leinadien Hey man. Thanks a lot for the great images. They will go on my Pinterest board immediately !  (Betcha they will come useful. I like pinning stuff)   I grow up watching anime and reading manga man. These things are part of me now, and it seems videogame industry is full of these stuff too. Though we probably will see more realistic stuff more and more lately in entertainment industry in general. 

Now that you mention it... We have Harry Potter museum right ?? Do you think there will be anime museum in Japan or something ?? GUNDAM museum will be kickass.

almighty_gir

Leinadien said:

Don't tell me you have no idea why museums are littered with realistic art and not cartoons. Anyway this isn't the place to discuss this, looking great Pyrzern.

Museums are littered with "Items of historical interest". that is all... lol.

kanga

@PyrZern Looks like some pretty solid modelling work to me. I love the concept, but I really like stylized figures so there ya go. I think taking the feel of a character and pushing it is a great challenge and exercise.  I think the comment on the thickness of the armor is a good one. The only crit I would have is the anchor points I see on the figure are a mix between fashion and glamour, like a small head to make her tall, small hands and feet, slender lower legs, but a biggish bust and broad hips. I am a big fan of adding costume to a base figure but in this case I would adjust the armor afterwards to match the concept more closely. Adding the plating beefs up the volumes a lot. If I was going to show the face I would make it smaller which is not anatomically responsible but this is a fantasy figure so what the hey. I wouldn't want to interfere with your workshop but I reckon the face and hands could use a bit more love atm.

Great work, very nice thread. Thanks for sharing.

Cheerio

TomGT

Cool man! Love Tahra's female knight concepts and so I'll be checking out the progress. 

Personally, I'd scale down the shoes a little if you're really trying to achieve that Eastern MMO look. Other than that this is looking great. Silhouette reads real good!

PyrZern

Here's an update I have. I think I pretty much finished all the armor base now... So I will get to work on the armor details now especially the decorations and maybe ... whatever steel texture is ... I'm scared... HELP!    I'm not confident in sculpting onto hardsurface stuff...  Unlike clothing that I could just do it over and over again until I get it right. When it comes to armors, or anything hardsurface, I don't want to ruin them Q_Q

Oh, I also made her hands, feet, and her head smaller. And adjust some weight balance, and some proportions with her torso, upper arms, and legs. And deleted some backfaces, and some optimizations..(so Toolbag doesn't implode upon itself).. But nevermind all that, I'm scared sculpting on the armors !!!