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Summer Character Workshop - Swordswoman (Potential Nudity Warning).

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almighty_gir ngon master
Hey all! So today is the start of the summer character workshop i'm hosting. I've encouraged the other guys to make their own threads and as/when they do i'll edit this post to contain their links. Please critique them and me as much as you can.

Joe Atilano: http://polycount.com/discussion/174026/summer-character-workshop-most-high-ceoptra#latest
Tom Lishman: http://polycount.com/discussion/174043/summer-character-workshop-nemesis-demon#latest
Shana Vandercruysse: http://polycount.com/discussion/174047/summer-character-workshop-the-baker#latest
Sanna Kempe: http://polycount.com/discussion/174058/summer-character-workshop-the-swordmaster#latest
Nathaniel Ramsey: http://polycount.com/discussion/174074/summer-character-workshop-illaoi-fanart#latest
Stevie Cole: http://polycount.com/discussion/174109/summer-workshop-neko-mancer#latest

As promised, i'm going to try to make this as easy to follow along for anyone that wants to as i can.

Today was all about finding a concept. Each person had a whole bunch of potentials that they liked the look of, and ultimately had to settle on one. Some of the things we talked about were:
  • Having a folder full of concepts, and overviewing them as thumbnails, picking out the ones we found striking, whether it's from lighting/composition, or the posture of the character.
  • Looking at how interesting a character was from a technical level (do they have interesting materials? is it something you've done a lot of before, etc).
  • Whether it's something you think you'll genuinely enjoy... If it's not, don't do it, because you'll stop halfway through and fail.
  • And finally, how challenging is it for you? It needs to be challenging enough that you'll learn something, but not so far out of your skill range that it's impossible to finish. again, stopping halfway through sucks.

So after weeding through all the concepts in my folder i decided on this one:

Jeanne D'arc by Sheng Yuan

It had the right elements to make me interested... I enjoy fantasy themed characters, it has a nice assortment of materials to work with (soft and hard leathers, different types of cloth, and some hard surface). And i quite liked the poise of the character, she looks like she's looking down on something/someone but ultimately comes across as a badass. And she's wearing enough clothing/armour to not fall into certain traps ;)

With all that in mind, we talked about breaking down the concept into reference material. Going out and finding real world examples (or in the case of some of the people doing stylised stuff, finding examples in films that do similar). And mapping them to the concept image.

While doing this, finding and pulling apart trouble areas of the concept and hidden/vague things. In my own concept i noticed that she's not actually wearing boots made of cloth/leather. Those are actually almost stockings that go over some kind of armour. She's wearing heels. And is wearing at least three different types or thicknesses of cloth. The chest armour has some kind of pattern on it, what is it? It's likely that i'll have to flesh that part of the concept out so that i have it clear in my mind when i come to sculpt it.

Here's what i came up with:


Tomorrow i'll be doing some concept sketches of the areas that i can't quite make out, like the chest, and any armour that could be under the stockings. I'll also be trying to clear up the pattern on the skirt so that it's easier to texture later on.

Replies

  • PyrZern
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    PyrZern polycounter lvl 12
    Urggg, there goes another concept I now will never use :P.

    Are you making a game engine model here or a 3d sculpt for printing thing ?
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    PyrZern said:
    Urggg, there goes another concept I now will never use :P.

    Are you making a game engine model here or a 3d sculpt for printing thing ?
    I'm aiming for everyoen to have a game ready model by the end :)
  • DanaosC
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    DanaosC polycounter lvl 5
    Looks amazing! I'll certainly make the model alongside with you guys. Once again you're amazing for doing that mate, have fun and godspeed! :)
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    So today i started fleshing out the concept a bit more. Focusing mainly on body and face types that i wanted to use. I mentioned in the first post that i really liked the pose and attitude of the concept, and there were certainly aspects of her face that i liked (again largely related to attitude), but there are some things not easy to pick out... the concept seems a little over exposed in some places so form is difficult to judge accurately, and i'm not the best at drawing so rather than redraw the face i decided to go out and find some real world examples that i liked.

    Starting with body... The concept depicts a strong woman, someone who (from the look of her clothes) has seen her fair share of scraps and scrapes (though lack of scarring on her skin? i might change that...) and neither armour or swords are particularly light. So i want to find a body type that looks like it could handle all of that. But being that she's also from some kind of fantasy world looking somewhat medieval in setting, i need to bear in mind that her form would likely develop naturally rather than by spending hours pumping iron.

    This isn't strong enough....


    But this is too strong!


    The kind of body i'm looking for is someone who walks around wearing extra lbs in weight (due to armour/sword), which means they'll likely have quite a round butt, and well toned thighs. As a personal preference i normally prefer girls to have a bit of bodyfat to soften things out, but i can't imagine this being the case here. So that means some fairly visible ab muscles, and some good tone to the deltoid/biceps. It also means boobs that aren't particularly huge as well.

    So with all that in mind i went and found some reference that i thought would be close to what i'm after, and started sketching over it... with my sketch overs i was looking to try and solidify my understanding of the forms i was seeing, highlighting contours on a face (convex and concave shapes), isolating what i'm looking for in the shape of the lips (something i see a lot of people do with cupid's bow actually, is to sweep the top of the lip downward, instead of slightly upward, hopefully you'll see what i mean in the pic below).

    I also need to take into consideration how a corset will affect her form... I'd normally do a lot more sketching than this, but i'm working at the same time as running the workshop, so i don't have as much time as i'd like.


  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    Last night (sorry for not updating the thread then), we all got started with blocking out our base meshes. At this stage there shouldn't really be any focus on details, it should be about forms, silhouette, making sure all the basics are in place ready for retopo (which we'll be doing tomorrow night).

    I tried to record a timelapse of the whole thing but today when i loaded the video from last night, i forgot to start recording before i got to work... so i only got the turntable at the end. Sorry guys =/

    Anyway, i'm not sure how visible it will be in the video but i tried to impress upon the guys the importance of:
    1. setting up a scale reference before you start ( i like to make a box for the character to stand on, and have a plane at the target height of the character, and then build everything within those bounds).
    2. not staying in a single view for too long: i'm constantly moving around the mesh, usually every two or three brush strokes. doing this means i don't get locked into making one view look good only to find rotating around breaks everything. keep moving, keep iterating, and things come together quite quickly.
    3. move brush! almost everything i did last night was the move brush. i don't think i really moved past that brush at all until today.

    Timelapse here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3ZTb1V4jxk
  • lotet
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    lotet hero character
    hey, good start!
    love this initiative of yours btw! will be a great pleasure following you and your "students" progress through this whole thing :)
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    thanks Lotet!

    Last night we all started doing a retopo stage. This is based on my own personal workflow for humanoid characters (particularly where the concept is solid/set), where if i'm not already starting from a basemesh, i like to create a retopoed lowpoly as early as i can.

    In my mind this serves a dual purpose:
    1. it gives me some good topology to work with.
    2. it means i don't have to do it again later on... i can just move to the lowest subdivision level and call it "done".

    I was using 3ds max for my retopo pass, i put Arshlevon's baseman in the background for me to use as reference while i worked, and i started out with some cylinders for the body, legs, and arms. arshe's baseman had 8 sides for the arms and legs, and 12 for the body. Mine is going to be twice as dense, with 16 for the legs and arms, and 32 for the body. I also had to make an actually retopoed head instead of his blank one.

    Unfortunately after recording for 2 hours the video crapped out. I've sped it up into a timelapse for you all if you're interested in seeing the process. but basically i just took some cylinders, and used max's conform and relax tools on the whole thing. it made retopo very quick, and i'm happy with the base i've got now, it'll probably be my basemesh for future projects, and i'll upload it shortly when i've done a couple more tweaks.

    video is uploading now... will take a couple of hours =/
  • almighty_gir
  • PyrZern
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    PyrZern polycounter lvl 12
    No music ? Gotta say, I'm very disappointed. But I forgive you, because the hand topology looks very clean there ^.^
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    lemme add some:

    unts unts unts unts unts unts unts unts
  • melli06
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    melli06 polycounter lvl 2
    Thank you so much for doing this man! Wish I had been checking Polycount's General Discussion... lol 
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    Ugh... i really wanted to keep this updated more frequently, but i've been insanely busy the last two weeks, i have even fallen behind where i wanted to be in the workshop as well (setting a bad example).

    So here's my almost finished high poly, i still need to do the second, longer skirt, and plot out her hair properly, as well as do a final detail pass. But i'm starting to feel pretty happy with the results so far.

    To come next week: Some delayed writeups on how i did the chainmail (micromesh, no big secret), and the cool metal things on her hips (path deform modifier in max).


  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    Lowpoly + AO + Normals:


  • polymator
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    polymator polycounter lvl 6
    The bakes and retop look super clean! Are they from Substance? xNormal?
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    polymator said:
    The bakes and retop look super clean! Are they from Substance? xNormal?
    Actually i baked everything twice... Once with substance (to show the workshop people how), and then again in something else. 

    A few months ago i made a procedural skin substance, it handles freckles and veins, and creates subdermis and transmission maps for me based on input colors that i choose...

  • Amaury
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    Amaury polycounter lvl 7
    polymator said:
    The bakes and retop look super clean! Are they from Substance? xNormal?
    Actually i baked everything twice... Once with substance (to show the workshop people how), and then again in something else. 

    A few months ago i made a procedural skin substance, it handles freckles and veins, and creates subdermis and transmission maps for me based on input colors that i choose...

     Damn that sounds awesome. I'm not that much of a substance designer guy so it appears like black magic to me, but since it is procedural how does it know that the freckles should only apply on a certain area of the face ?
  • PyrZern
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    PyrZern polycounter lvl 12
    Do you mask specific area for freckles on its own layer, and then another mask for different kind of texture on another layer ?? Or is it like ..... 1 substance for the whole skin.  Because the latter would be either Black Magic, or Blood Magic for sure.
  • polymator
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    polymator polycounter lvl 6
    Don't wanna hi-jack your thread Lee so I apologize if I'm stepping out of line here.

    @Amaury The answer is most probably masks. You control where things happen in substance (and really in PBR texturing as a whole) through masks. Now how you actually go about generating said masks is another matter entirely; there's effect generators (noise, cloud, scratches, grunge etc), you could use the maps you baked (AO, transmission, curvature etc) or you could just paint in the masks old school.

    @PyrZern Substance designer is a node based program and has no layers so one substance has everything. Substance painter on the other hand does have layers and give you the ability to paint textures on separately.
  • slosh
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    slosh hero character
    Do you have screenshots of just the nude sculpt?  Overall proportions look good but the neck transitioning to the clavicles looks a bit off.  Cloth looks great!
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    polymator said:
    Don't wanna hi-jack your thread Lee so I apologize if I'm stepping out of line here.

    @Amaury The answer is most probably masks. You control where things happen in substance (and really in PBR texturing as a whole) through masks. Now how you actually go about generating said masks is another matter entirely; there's effect generators (noise, cloud, scratches, grunge etc), you could use the maps you baked (AO, transmission, curvature etc) or you could just paint in the masks old school.

    @PyrZern Substance designer is a node based program and has no layers so one substance has everything. Substance painter on the other hand does have layers and give you the ability to paint textures on separately.


    Bingo bango!

    I did have a version of this running where it could reasonably judge fleshiness (through a combination of thickness map, and curvature), and generate redness/yellowness in the correct places based on that, but it became rally sluggish to use. but there was no really reliable algorithm for placing freckles in a way that looked consistently good.

    So now all i do is create layer duplicates (so the base skintones match) and add freckles or veins where desired, or even change the base tones if i want redness (lips/cheeks etc.), then use masks to make it all tie together nicely.

    It looks like this in painter:


    Aaaand i'm still working on the lighting in toolbag:

  • lotet
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    lotet hero character
    This is turning out really nice with the textures, love the scars.  I think the lips might have a bit to much color noise in them or something, they are kind of popping and reading a tad noisy.  also I know its still very much a WIP but the nostrils need some AO/darkness in them, right now its looking a tad creepy, like a rubber mask or something.
     this might have been asked already but whats your plan for the eyes, since they are closed like that.
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    Hey man, thanks for the feedback!

    I think the noisiness may be coming from the detail map, i haven't masked it off at all yet anywhere so there's just a constant noise across everything.

    The eyes are closed as a result of planning! I created a layer in zbrush with the eyes open, and exported that to use as a morph target, so i can open the eyes as much or as little as i like. I wanted them closed so i could texture the eyelids better.

    As you can see from the painter screenshot, i have the eyes, and insides of the mouth duplicated and offset so i can texture them external to the head with no problems :)
  • skycity02
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    skycity02 polycounter lvl 7
    hi master lee how do you handle the chainmail armor when it comes down to low poly? Can you do a tutorial about it? or briefly talk about the workflow please?
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    I used zbrush micromesh to create high poly chainmail, and baked it down to a simple low poly.


  • PyrZern
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    PyrZern polycounter lvl 12
    BTW, Lee, what are the spec/budgets for this workshop in terms of poly and texture ? So I can kinda sorta match :P
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    I'm aiming for 4k body, 4k head/skinstuff, 1k sword, 1k hair.

    But there are no real budgets other than "be reasonable and sensible".
  • skycity02
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    skycity02 polycounter lvl 7
    thanks for reply :).  Do you use opacity map to make the chainmail transparent in the empty area? How do you make such opacity map? Also is that an easy process to bake a normal map for the chainmail so the metal ring has more dimensional feel while the empty area are transparency by the opacity map?
  • Francois_K
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    Francois_K interpolator
    I'm curious as to why you decided to sculpt her eyes closed when you had them open originally. Some sculpts in Uncharted 4 had their eyelids sculpted in as well and I'm still wondering why that is.
  • EarthQuake
    Generally, eyelids are sculpted closed and then opened up in the lowpoly, so that when the character is animated (eyes close, blink, etc) there is suitable geometry and texture detail without stretching.
  • PyrZern
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    PyrZern polycounter lvl 12
    I think sometimes they also sculpt eyes and mouth at half-closed. Using the same idea that they don't sculpt characters in T-pose; but more in A-pose... which is about half way between T and I pose.


  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    PyrZern said:
    I think sometimes they also sculpt eyes and mouth at half-closed. Using the same idea that they don't sculpt characters in T-pose; but more in A-pose... which is about half way between T and I pose.


    Yep...

    In my time freelancing i've seen just about every bind pose i can imagine. There was a game i helped with, where the characters were only ever running and carrying guns, the arms required such a small range of motion that they wanted the character modeled with the elbows bent 90 degrees, and the fingers almost completely wrapped. I've seen riggers request such minute things that it makes your head spin, and EVERY rigger wants it done differently, they all think they're special snowflakes who know best lol.

    Anyway, have an update (i'll get round to lashes/brows at some point i'm sure):

  • Joao Sapiro
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    Joao Sapiro sublime tool
    theres something off about her face, i think its the eyes , it seems the face is stretched vertically , do you have any refs that you used when you sculpted her ?
  • slosh
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    slosh hero character
    I'd have to agree that she looks a tad manly at the moment.  In the concept, her face feels more feminine.  I would possible bring the lower half of her face up a smidge and soften her jaw and chin.  Perhaps her eyes are ever so slightly close together as well?  I'm guessing hair is still WIP but it has a very "plastered" look and the shape looks a bit odd from the front.  Maybe find some ref of a similar hairstyle from the front so you can get a more aesthetic flow.  Materials are looking good so far!
  • Leinadien
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    Leinadien vertex
    I think the main issue is the highlight at the end of the temples or brow ridge. Round that out and she'll probably look more feminine.
  • sefice
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    sefice polycounter lvl 8
    I don't think yout need to change the sculpt much. 8 times out of 10, it's the eyebrows :)


  • karytsukino
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    karytsukino greentooth
    Nice progress here. The sculpture looks nice, I agree with Sefice,  that when you include the eyebrows her face  will look much better. I though that  in the first images,  her  shoulders looks a bit large and giving her a masculine impression. But I really enjoy your work on the texture, her skin looks great. keep going I cant wait too se more =) 
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master


    Man i'm terrible at lighting...
  • Ged
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    Ged interpolator
    she is looking great! the face looks excellent now (especially now that she has eyebrows haha). Perhaps she seems a little forlorn/sad for such a fearsome/powerful woman. The materials/textureing looks really good though. The lighting is cool, kinda like a good rpg videogame, what sort of lighting are you aiming for? why not base your lighting off a film scene you really like or something? Ive tried that before on an environment and got a nice result. 
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master

    Finally managed to finish her up!

    Want to thank everyone who took part in the workshop, Nathan has already finished, Joe is almost done, Sanna and Shana are almost there, can't wait to see everyone's stuff smashing it!








  • slosh
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    slosh hero character
    This turned out pretty good man!  I think the face looks better but the hair and eyes need work IMO.  Hair feels very cardy and unnatural and the eyes seem to have no depth.  Materials on her outfit look very nice.  The chest piece is odd to me but that's from the original concept so no fault to you.  All in all, a solid piece.
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    Cheers Slosh.

    Yeah i'm not happy either but... time to move on!

    That said, testing out TB3 stuff...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf2qhd0pBxQ
  • lotet
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    lotet hero character
    wow, the video showcases it so much better then your screenshots. so much awesome detail! I agree with @slosh. though, the face from the nose and up could use a little extra love. but overall its a solid model. 

    overall the process and workshop in general was a blast to follow, hope you do it again sometime!
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    Ahh poop, just realsed i didn't have backfaces enabled on the hair -_-

    updooted renders!






  • polaroid29
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    polaroid29 polycounter lvl 6
    Hey man! Overall pretty nice work. Other than the aforementioned hair stuff, I think her expression is killing the work for me. She has kind of an eyes-too-open blank stare going on, and it really isn't setting up a nice mood for the presentation. Some super simple fixes like adding a bit of personality into the face/expression I think is a very quick way to upgrade the work 10x over. The pose in general is quite stiff, but if you don't want to waste too much more time on all of that, a simple fix with the eyes/face would do plenty.
  • Joopson
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    Joopson quad damage
    I know it's way too late to say so, but I love the look of the face in your "I'm terrible at lighting" post on the 14th. I enjoy the slightly scared look, and in general the face-pose feels very naturalistic and believable. The new one feels a little uncanny from the front, to me, and I can't place why.
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    Okay i'll try to take a look at her expression over the weekend, but it's my birthday tomorrow so i'll be a bit busy.
  • erroldynamic
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    erroldynamic polycounter lvl 18
    Did you use the transfer normals trick on the hair? Might help soften the hard edged "cardy" look. I like the renders from September 14th as well, the lighting seemed to work out better. The eyebrows look a bit harsh in the last renders, like there's a long crease or strip causing them to look unnatural. I do like the piece overall, just some tweaks and it will really shine!
  • Shanana
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    Shanana polycounter lvl 6
    Hey Lee, awesome to see you finish it. 

    It is a bit late for this, but as you are going to take another look I might as well chime in as well :)
    I think lowering the upper eyelid would make the expression a bit more relaxed, making the pupil a tad larger might also help.

    I would take a look at the eyebrows, as a blonde I know that blonde eyebrows are scary af (I darken them myself as I don't want to look like a creature from the dark ^^). Take the tone a bit darker and she should look better. If I google "blondes" the array of eyebrow shades is big, but never as light as yours. Especially with darker make up, the eyebrows also need to get darker. Trust me, I used to be a make-up artist :D

    For the hair I think if you could just tuck away the parts where the cards intersect with the head with new cards, you could get rid of that issue you have there. Hope this image explains how. Also gave the eyebrows a different look...


    Hope you don't mind me giving my 2cents, and happy birthday brah!
  • tda
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    tda polycounter lvl 16
    Turned out sweet dude, really great stuff!

    I'm echoing some of the comments here already but I agree that the eye area could probably use another pass. The eyebrows look a little too slick and shiny imo. @shanana is on the money with the colour and while i'm personally fine with the shape you chose it does seem odd to have a really shiny specular on there. I also feel that the eyelashes could be a little more visible and the eyes themselves could benefit from a subtle top shadow card. As for the lighting i think a simple rimlight to pop some of these dark edges would help loads, especially given your choice of dark background. The silhouette of the front view especially really fades away into the BG. I did a quick thing-


    These crits aside this is badass work man, especially in 2 months while also taking the time to mentor your group. And happy birthday! Hope you had a good one :smiley:
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    Man, you guys are awesome. I'll try to make time during the week to get some of this stuff done :)
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