They ask you 'Would you like to see this item offically accepted and supported in CS:GO' for a reason. They ask people to specifically decide if they want to see your design in the game, not if they think it looks cool or if you want to support someone who put many hours of work behind a design. There are some really colourful - and quite honestly awesome looking - designs which just don't fit into the game. If people vote no on those they don't hate you and often don't even dislike your skin. They just help valve to keep cs:go awesome by giving them their honest opinion.
Just think about incredibly good food. I doubt there is any food that would get 90% of the people to vote for if they are asked wether they want to see it on the table in 2 hours (maybe pizza :awesome: )
I am sure there are people who vote down 90%, but I highly doubt they mean to harm you, they just upvote what they absolutely love. Since there are so many skins in the workshop they are helping Valve a lot. If every decent item was at 90%ish that would not help anyone.
Although those spamming kids definately occasionally downvote after writing +1 and their links. But they do that everywhere, so stop whining ffs.
The whole voting system would be useless without the possibilty to downvote an item. At the moment there are more than 1000 times as many submissions as accepted skins. Stop being little crybabys about the downvotes and think about how you can improve your designs. I have skins that went from 70% down to 40% and the other way around. It seems perfectly normal.
There is zero point in worrying about votes, positives or negative. No one has control over spammers and downvoters, and the folks in charge of reviewing entries at Valve are clever enough to do things right. Even the most impressive and popular promotional material (video presentations, short films, weapon finish "branding", and so on) bringing a lot of upvotes have likely no impact on their decision process. And that's probably a good thing
Here is what my stats currently look like that I find suspicious. This is currently the lowest rated skin I've ever released, I've never had a skin go below 50% yes votes ever, something is clearly going on here. Especially considering the skin made it into the top 3 very, very quickly, then suddenly disappeared from the charts.
Man, there is nothing extraordinary "going on here"... You are apparently new to workshop, you shouldnt complain about having negative votes here. It might be hard to face the fact that people didnt like your skin, but thats just how it is.. You can't succed with every single skin as you desire. But please stop blaming this on some manipulatiors or whatever, even the well known workshoppers have some skins that just dont do well. Of course there is more "cowards" downvoting skins during contest to increase their chances, but that just means it happens to all skins so all skins are probably having more downvotes then they usually do. I can't judge too much because I havent seen the skin, but either it lacks quality or it is subtle style that is often downvoted more then colorful skins. But even with 45% positive votes you can still get the skin ingame as far as I know, I dont see reason why to stress so much about votes, in the end its Valve who decides.
I've been on the Workshop since 2014, so no, I'm not new to the Workshop. I've got 4 spreadsheets of data collected on CS:GO workshop entries. If you want to see my skin as "proof" that I didn't make a bad skin then look at my post history and go look at my Workshop, I'm not in this thread to promote my work. I'm just pointing out something I found unusual with the voting on this particular contest.
"This really isn't the place to discuss this, but the idea that Valve can't keep up with the good content when they consistently put the same 5 people in case after case is laughable. The amount of revenue generated by the workshop based on what Valve claims easily justifies being able to pay someone to look after the community that Valve is ultimately asking to do work for them for free. If Valve wanted to release more skins by other community artists they could just release skins more regularly, simple as that. "
We also have to realise we aren't doing work for free. Valve is giving us a oppurtunity, and you have to see it as such. There is no good reason for valve to publish skins more regularly either, why would they? They did the math, it probably wouldn't earn better than only having one case.
YES YOU ARE WORKING FOR FREE. Please don't be this dense. Valve isn't giving people an opportunity, they're asking people to gamble with their hard work in a rigged game.
Even the most impressive and popular promotional material (video presentations, short films, weapon finish "branding", and so on) bringing a lot of upvotes have likely no impact on their decision process. And that's probably a good thing
Is this a joke? The last case included 3 skins from the same creator who made a commercial with Danny Trejo in it. Youtubers and game casters also get fast tracked into the Workshop. It might be easy to see the Workshop as a fair system when you've been paid, but when you've spent months working on workshop stuff and only see 1-2 skins from new creators every 3-4 months it's hard to feel like it's much more than gambling.
Not a joke - it's just that correlation does not mean causation. The skins themselves are of very high quality, therefore there is no way to know if the whole Danny Trejo thing had any impact on the matter.
My opinion is that it probably did not, and that even if it did, there really is not much point worrying about it ...
The same thing happens with the Dota2 workshop. Artists get all caught up with "promotional material", because some content that got accepted in the past came with SFM videos or similar seemingly impressive extras. But at the end of the day, the artists getting things accepted on a regular basis are the one crafting great content.
Now I don't disagree about the fact that this is far from a great system, and I get your point about it feeling like gambling. All I am saying is that there are some things worth worrying about, and some not so much
Not a joke - it's just that correlation does not mean causation. The skins themselves are of very high quality, therefore there is no way to know if the whole Danny Trejo thing had any impact on the matter.
My opinion is that it probably did not, and that even if it did, there really is not much point worrying about it ...
The same thing happens with the Dota2 workshop. Artists get all caught up with "promotional material", because some content that got accepted in the past came with SFM videos or similar seemingly impressive extras. But at the end of the day, the artists getting things accepted on a regular basis are the one crafting great content.
Now I don't disagree about the fact that this is far from a great system, and I get your point about it feeling like gambling. All I am saying is that there are some things worth worrying about, and some not so much
The problem is Workshop creators have no idea what to worry about. Valve tells us to get our content upvoted, but that doesn't seem to effect anything, but when a Youtuber or Caster submits an item it's accepted right away. Content creators who are connected to Valve get whole packs added for just them because "it's easier". The only community map creator accepted to the game is one in direct contact with Valve. DotA workshoppers who don't even play CS come into the CS workshop making videos with Danny Trejo and they instantly get 4 skins in the game, 3 of them in one case. What are we supposed to take away from this?
Valve's pitch was that they were democratizing game development, but that's not what it feels like. Skins used to be free, now we have no way to release skins, we can't even use them on unofficial servers.
Lmao everyone's having a discussion about how good is "good" for stat percentages, and how people are manipulating votes.... I'm just glad to get something above 55% positive.
But to address the other issue you are all seeming to have with your skins getting down voted... it's completely normal to have a positive percentage when you go to bed and then a negative when you wake up. You have to remember that there is a large workshop audience that is awake when we are asleep. So of course there's going to be a surge of downvotes in a small amount of time. Also... you have to take into account WHEN you post it... did you post it on the weekend? Did you post it on a Holiday weekend? Did you post it the day after a holiday? Did you post at night, or in the day? Did you post it during an event?
There's too many variables to just "narrow it down to manipulation of votes". Now I'm not saying no one ever does that, but I'm saying... there's a large audience during the weekends (new players/casual players), holidays, holiday weekends, opposite time of day. I think this is something a lot of cs workshopers fail to realize. Because everyone is so caught up in getting a skin into a case they start to lose focus on having fun and creating unique original content. I think Valve's biggest thing is they are always looking for something new, so that when the current trend (of what people like) is over, they can start distributing the next thing. Maybe that's why "the same 5 people" always get their skins in and noticed, is because they're being innovative and understand design and also enjoy making skins. While the rest of the cs:go community is too busy fighting and trying to get skins in... they're doing what they love.
Also the reason Valve's being "non-transparent" about the voting is because they want to avoid vote manipulation I'm sure. So they don't say "oh these are the winners" I almost would bet that when they announce the winners they will get both a surge of up and down votes.
Anyways... that's just my personal opinion, as someone who enjoys making skins. Do I want to get a case in? Absolutely; it'd help me go to college for the same thing I'm sitting here doing night after night. Then I could make skins for a game company, such as Valve. But... it's not everything...
Valve is putting the same people in the cases for a reason. They are the ones producing the content valve needs / wants. If you want to become amongst them, spend more time on your skins and you'll become one of them in the future simple as that. We also have to realise we aren't doing work for free. Valve is giving us a opportunity, and you have to see it as such. There is no good reason for valve to publish skins more regularly either, why would they? They did the math, it probably wouldn't earn better than only having one case.
Dude, seriously? We absolutely work for free, or if you really want to think we don't, then we're working in a rigged system that's not in our favor unless we're one of valve's "favorites". Look at yourself. You worked on skins for what, about a year, right? And then you finally got one into the revolver case. Awesome! And then you got another into the next case. Also very cool, but are you really going to outright lie to yourself and say that you got 2 skins in a row only because you were "producing the content valve needs / wants"? Really dude? Be smarter then that. I'm happy you got your stuff in, but you got in one, and then one immediately after that one, because valve just does what they always do when they're adding new skins.
They open the workshop, see how many submissions there are, go "fuck that" and then just hop straight to the profiles of their favorites. Everyone knows who they are. It happens literally every single case, time and time again. Coridium, while he makes fantastic skins, has gotten 4 skins in a row the past few cases, 2 of them being from 2013, and the other from 2014. This isn't valve picking out the best of the best on the workshop, this is valve picking out things from the same people that they always pick from, or just started picking from. It's a problem. "Spend more time on your skins and you'll become one of them". Give me a break.
It doesn't matter how much time you put into your skins if valve never once actually looks at it, right? You can put in hours and hours into your skins but if valve is constantly just defaulting to the exact same people ( or adding multiple from a single person, thus making it even less likely to go browse the workshop ) then you're literally never going to be seen unless you get lucky and valve actually decides to browse around on the workshop. There are ways to get noticed, sure, but you've seen what they are. Look at how redmoon had those little videos they could post onto reddit, get tons of exposure. Look how Cleg pimped his things out and then got Danny fucking Trejo to promote his stuff.
This is how valve notices people now if they at all bother to try and find some other skins from newer people. It's not the pure quality of your skin, it's not the vote percentage, it's not how nicely your gun would fit the game or how well it's done on it's own; it's how much time you pump into insane marketing, or you get lucky and they stumble across your skin and it's good enough to be added, or you have prior connections to people on the cs team. Come on dude, get real. I'm happy that you got some stuff ingame, but the system is not hunkey dorey just because you're apparently above it now.
Lmao everyone's having a discussion about how good is "good" for stat percentages, and how people are manipulating votes.... I'm just glad to get something above 55% positive.
But to address the other issue you are all seeming to have with your skins getting down voted... it's completely normal to have a positive percentage when you go to bed and then a negative when you wake up. You have to remember that there is a large workshop audience that is awake when we are asleep. So of course there's going to be a surge of downvotes in a small amount of time. Also... you have to take into account WHEN you post it... did you post it on the weekend? Did you post it on a Holiday weekend? Did you post it the day after a holiday? Did you post at night, or in the day? Did you post it during an event?
There's too many variables to just "narrow it down to manipulation of votes". Now I'm not saying no one ever does that, but I'm saying... there's a large audience during the weekends (new players/casual players), holidays, holiday weekends, opposite time of day. I think this is something a lot of cs workshopers fail to realize. Because everyone is so caught up in getting a skin into a case they start to lose focus on having fun and creating unique original content. I think Valve's biggest thing is they are always looking for something new, so that when the current trend (of what people like) is over, they can start distributing the next thing. Maybe that's why "the same 5 people" always get their skins in and noticed, is because they're being innovative and understand design and also enjoy making skins. While the rest of the cs:go community is too busy fighting and trying to get skins in... they're doing what they love.
Also the reason Valve's being "non-transparent" about the voting is because they want to avoid vote manipulation I'm sure. So they don't say "oh these are the winners" I almost would bet that when they announce the winners they will get both a surge of up and down votes.
Anyways... that's just my personal opinion, as someone who enjoys making skins. Do I want to get a case in? Absolutely; it'd help me go to college for the same thing I'm sitting here doing night after night. Then I could make skins for a game company, such as Valve. But... it's not everything...
It's cute that all of you are coming in here to attack my post based on my "inexperience" with the workshop. The only reason I brought this up was because of my experience in the Workshop. I've collected a lot of data about all of my Workshop items (and others) from the beginning. It wasn't even my idea that someone was manipulating the vote, it was suggested to me by TWO other workshop creators who I was talking to about how strange the voting trend was.
As for the rest of your defense of the Workshop system, I'm not going to keep replying to the same arguments over and over. The current Workshop system doesn't treat creators particularly fairly. I've been modding Valve games since HL1, I remember when mods were free and not just a big spec work program. I've worked in the game industry for 10 years. If a company was going around asking people to perpetually create art tests until they found an asset they liked and wanted to use people would call it a scam, but when Valve does it it's fine. There was just a thread in General Discussion about another contest that was criticizing this exact thing.
All I want is to see the Workshop live up to the high expectations that Valve has set for it, but it currently does not. If you want to change my opinion then come up with an argument that doesn't frame Valve as some kind of benevolent deity that we just have to do the right magic dance for to appease.
Valve is putting the same people in the cases for a reason. They are the ones producing the content valve needs / wants. If you want to become amongst them, spend more time on your skins and you'll become one of them in the future simple as that. We also have to realise we aren't doing work for free. Valve is giving us a opportunity, and you have to see it as such. There is no good reason for valve to publish skins more regularly either, why would they? They did the math, it probably wouldn't earn better than only having one case.
Dude, seriously? We absolutely work for free, or if you really want to think we don't, then we're working in a rigged system that's not in our favor unless we're one of valve's "favorites". Look at yourself. You worked on skins for what, about a year, right? And then you finally got one into the revolver case. Awesome! And then you got another into the next case. Also very cool, but are you really going to outright lie to yourself and say that you got 2 skins in a row only because you were "producing the content valve needs / wants"? Really dude? Be smarter then that. I'm happy you got your stuff in, but you got in one, and then one immediately after that one, because valve just does what they always do when they're adding new skins.
They open the workshop, see how many submissions there are, go "fuck that" and then just hop straight to the profiles of their favorites. Everyone knows who they are. It happens literally every single case, time and time again. Coridium, while he makes fantastic skins, has gotten 4 skins in a row the past few cases, 2 of them being from 2013, and the other from 2014. This isn't valve picking out the best of the best on the workshop, this is valve picking out things from the same people that they always pick from, or just started picking from. It's a problem. "Spend more time on your skins and you'll become one of them". Give me a break.
It doesn't matter how much time you put into your skins if valve never once actually looks at it, right? You can put in hours and hours into your skins but if valve is constantly just defaulting to the exact same people ( or adding multiple from a single person, thus making it even less likely to go browse the workshop ) then you're literally never going to be seen unless you get lucky and valve actually decides to browse around on the workshop. There are ways to get noticed, sure, but you've seen what they are. Look at how redmoon had those little videos they could post onto reddit, get tons of exposure. Look how Cleg pimped his things out and then got Danny fucking Trejo to promote his stuff.
This is how valve notices people now if they at all bother to try and find some other skins from newer people. It's not the pure quality of your skin, it's not the vote percentage, it's not how nicely your gun would fit the game or how well it's done on it's own; it's how much time you pump into insane marketing, or you get lucky and they stumble across your skin and it's good enough to be added, or you have prior connections to people on the cs team. Come on dude, get real. I'm happy that you got some stuff ingame, but the system is not hunkey dorey just because you're apparently above it now.
Don't tell me to be "smarter than that" or that "I'm above the system now". I'm honestly not even going to bother discussing this with you. Valve isen't forcing anyone to make skins, if you don't like the way the system works, don't make skins.
We don't condone shouting matches here. It looks like this thread might be heading that way. If it does, we'll kindly give out 2 week temporary bans to help people cool off a bit.
It's cute that all of you are coming in here to attack my post based on my "inexperience" with the workshop. The only reason I brought this up was because of my experience in the Workshop. I've collected a lot of data about all of my Workshop items (and others) from the beginning. It wasn't even my idea that someone was manipulating the vote, it was suggested to me by TWO other workshop creators who I was talking to about how strange the voting trend was.
As for the rest of your defense of the Workshop system, I'm not going to keep replying to the same arguments over and over. The current Workshop system doesn't treat creators particularly fairly. I've been modding Valve games since HL1, I remember when mods were free and not just a big spec work program. I've worked in the game industry for 10 years. If a company was going around asking people to perpetually create art tests until they found an asset they liked and wanted to use people would call it a scam, but when Valve does it it's fine. There was just a thread in General Discussion about another contest that was criticizing this exact thing.
All I want is to see the Workshop live up to the high expectations that Valve has set for it, but it currently does not. If you want to change my opinion then come up with an argument that doesn't frame Valve as some kind of benevolent deity that we just have to do the right magic dance for to appease.
I'm not "attacking" you. If you've worked in the game industry for 10 years then you would realize that your workshop is basically your resume/portfolio. Make high quality/unique skins for long enough and you will get noticed. I'm sorry you've convinced yourself otherwise, but maybe that's the problem.
Valve "scamming people" is practically the definition for every single art driven job criteria. They take a look at your "art tests" and decide if they could use your style/talent. If you hate the workshop so much, and valve... maybe you'd be more suited working somewhere/on something else. I'm sure Valve's not going to just give handouts to people who talk crap about them. Would you want an employee who distrusts/bashes on your company? The smart answer is: no. Because those people are liabilities. Think about it... if Valve gave you a job and you went around purposely damaging their image... would they want to keep you? Or use anything you've contributed? I know I wouldn't.
No one is forcing you to make skins for valve/cs:go. You made that decision, I'm sorry you feel like you've been cheated out of something but you have to realize that Valve didn't have to enable the workshop and didn't have to give anyone any money. They're giving Non-Employees a chance to earn money from them, which in my opinion, is practically unheard of. So basically... the way I see it... is, if you're complaining about Valve, the workshop, cs:go and not having YOUR content in-game... remember that you aren't their employee, they don't owe you anything.
Edit Note: I was just trying to explain why some peoples finishes may have experienced negative votes.
I'm not "attacking" you. If you've worked in the game industry for 10 years then you would realize that your workshop is basically your resume/portfolio. Make high quality/unique skins for long enough and you will get noticed. I'm sorry you've convinced yourself otherwise, but maybe that's the problem.
Valve "scamming people" is practically the definition for every single art driven job criteria. They take a look at your "art tests" and decide if they could use your style/talent. If you hate the workshop so much, and valve... maybe you'd be more suited working somewhere/on something else. I'm sure Valve's not going to just give handouts to people who talk crap about them. Would you want an employee who distrusts/bashes on your company? The smart answer is: no. Because those people are liabilities. Think about it... if Valve gave you a job and you went around purposely damaging their image... would they want to keep you? Or use anything you've contributed? I know I wouldn't.
No one is forcing you to make skins for valve/cs:go. You made that decision, I'm sorry you feel like you've been cheated out of something but you have to realize that Valve didn't have to enable the workshop and didn't have to give anyone any money. They're giving Non-Employees a chance to earn money from them, which in my opinion, is practically unheard of. So basically... the way I see it... is, if you're complaining about Valve, the workshop, cs:go and not having YOUR content in-game... remember that you aren't their employee, they don't owe you anything.
Edit Note: I was just trying to explain why some peoples finishes may have experienced negative votes.
No, my portfolio/resume is on my Website and most of it was made for companies that paid me money (and continue to pay me money) for the work I do or it was made for myself for my own experience/enjoyment. Making assets a specific way for a particular company with the intent to get paid is an entirely different beast.
Now you're saying I shouldn't speak up about problems I see with the Workshop because it might upset Valve? How deliciously dystopian the new economy is looking. The point of the Workshop isn't supposed to be Valve giving "handouts" it's supposed to be them allowing creatives to "democratize" game development and make money, remember? If Valve wants to advertise over and over again that the Steam Workshop is good for content creators then it has to prove it.
Also, voluntary labor is illegal according to the fair labor standards act, this conveniently doesn't apply to independent contractors (what Valve classifies their Workshop artists as). However continually not paying contractors will earn you a bad reputation, just as it's earning Valve. I know it is, because every single time I speak up about this more and more Workshop creators contact me with their own concerns about the way the Workshop is run, some of them full time content creators. The TF2 Workshoppers recently brought up a number of issues with the Workshop on the TF2 subreddit, Polycount's own Anuxinamoon wrote a lengthy post on the DotA2 subreddit about the issues with the Workshop with a lot of support from the community, Valve didn't respond.
You can try to belittle me as much as you want about how I feel about the ethics of the Steam Workshop, but at the end of the day you're not making an argument, you're just telling me to shut up and stop complaining.
It does only sound logical that Valve like to work more with already "successful" Designers.
Because: 1. They know, they maintain quality and good designs. 2. It does let Valve maintain reliable quality overall and get them a good image. 3. It isn't any different in other company's. They want the "best of the best" if you can't reach it you're out, it's as easy as that. 4. If they would add more different designs, they would risk to loose certain "favors/fan groups". (aka. Asiimov) (Since a lot of people like what they know and are skeptical about new stuff.) 5. If Valve wouldn't support them, they probably "take the money and leave" 6. If you don't want to cooperate "more" not "once" with Valve in the future, then you shouldn't create skins.
Overall: 1. Keep going and build connections with other Designers (Why does Valve need to do it with Polycount? If they could make their contest on steam?) It's a perfect opportunity for us to find new partners and cooperation's. Not only the contest does count here! 2. At the end Valve decides the outcome which skin they'll add, the numbers in the community are just a rough estimation about the likeliness and preferences from the fan base. 3. If they see someone is making progress or might do exactly what they want to have/see, they add him to the list and it's successors. 4. I guess at least the most of us are grown up men/women to understand the situation, so stop the fight and help each other 5. I've seen so many cool finishes but: Do the finishes fit the tiers (blue,purple,pink,red)? Does it fit the game? Does the design "connect" to the game? (Why else would they choose such a difficult theme which has almost nothing to do with the game. Our task was it to find a good design which fit's the theme AND the game equally. That's some questions we should have asked ourself.) 6. With the said above it implies why we should use a WIP post to present our work in a detailed presentation. (They even "mentioned" that, constructive criticism would be nice to get some inputs from other designers, (keyword: "cooperation") in the main post)
I hope that answered some question's and put an end to the (in my opinion) "unnecessary" contention's about "views/unfairness/negative feedback". I would like to keep it neutral and friendly here, we aren't Teenagers anymore ;P ("cyka blyat")
Still i wish you all the best of luck! Cheers! Foxy
Ps: And yes it is kind of unfair, but you don't get anything presented in the "bad wide world" of economics and management, so bear with it
I'm not "attacking" you. If you've worked in the game industry for 10 years then you would realize that your workshop is basically your resume/portfolio. Make high quality/unique skins for long enough and you will get noticed. I'm sorry you've convinced yourself otherwise, but maybe that's the problem.
Valve "scamming people" is practically the definition for every single art driven job criteria. They take a look at your "art tests" and decide if they could use your style/talent. If you hate the workshop so much, and valve... maybe you'd be more suited working somewhere/on something else. I'm sure Valve's not going to just give handouts to people who talk crap about them. Would you want an employee who distrusts/bashes on your company? The smart answer is: no. Because those people are liabilities. Think about it... if Valve gave you a job and you went around purposely damaging their image... would they want to keep you? Or use anything you've contributed? I know I wouldn't.
No one is forcing you to make skins for valve/cs:go. You made that decision, I'm sorry you feel like you've been cheated out of something but you have to realize that Valve didn't have to enable the workshop and didn't have to give anyone any money. They're giving Non-Employees a chance to earn money from them, which in my opinion, is practically unheard of. So basically... the way I see it... is, if you're complaining about Valve, the workshop, cs:go and not having YOUR content in-game... remember that you aren't their employee, they don't owe you anything.
Edit Note: I was just trying to explain why some peoples finishes may have experienced negative votes.
No, my portfolio/resume is on my Website and most of it was made for companies that paid me money (and continue to pay me money) for the work I do or it was made for myself for my own experience/enjoyment. Making assets a specific way for a particular company with the intent to get paid is an entirely different beast.
Now you're saying I shouldn't speak up about problems I see with the Workshop because it might upset Valve? How deliciously dystopian the new economy is looking. The point of the Workshop isn't supposed to be Valve giving "handouts" it's supposed to be them allowing creatives to "democratize" game development and make money, remember? If Valve wants to advertise over and over again that the Steam Workshop is good for content creators then it has to prove it.
Also, voluntary labor is illegal according to the fair labor standards act, this conveniently doesn't apply to independent contractors (what Valve classifies their Workshop artists as). However continually not paying contractors will earn you a bad reputation, just as it's earning Valve. I know it is, because every single time I speak up about this more and more Workshop creators contact me with their own concerns about the way the Workshop is run, some of them full time content creators. The TF2 Workshoppers recently brought up a number of issues with the Workshop on the TF2 subreddit, Polycount's own Anuxinamoon wrote a lengthy post on the DotA2 subreddit about the issues with the Workshop with a lot of support from the community, Valve didn't respond.
You can try to belittle me as much as you want about how I feel about the ethics of the Steam Workshop, but at the end of the day you're not making an argument, you're just telling me to shut up and stop complaining.
No If I was telling you to do that I would just say it, honestly I'm not the type to beat around the bush.
Getting to the meat of the issue here though... that's great that all of those people feel the need to complain about a broken system and not really do anything about it except.... post a reddit about it. But what's that going to change? If you want to make a difference you and everyone who feels like you needs to contact valve and say something about it, get a petition signed, whatever it is that needs to be done. Valve will listen if there's a big enough voice.
But... I'm not part of that demographic. I think the workshop is fine; thousands, literally, are looking at creations I've made. That alone is enough to keep me going. I started out with 0 followers and I now have 4. I'm happy with those statistics, and if Valve does change the workshop... that's just part of the market, I'll have to learn to adapt. But as of right now... I don't see anything wrong with the workshop. I'll do me, and you do you. But ranting and raving on a forum designed to promote a competition isn't going to change anything.
I wish there was a way to get this topic back on track so I'll just say this, you all are welcome to check out my workshop, I know I haven't done much for very long, but I appreciate any support or feedback. Thanks to everyone, and goodluck
No If I was telling you to do that I would just say it, honestly I'm not the type to beat around the bush.
Getting to the meat of the issue here though... that's great that all of those people feel the need to complain about a broken system and not really do anything about it except.... post a reddit about it. But what's that going to change? If you want to make a difference you and everyone who feels like you needs to contact valve and say something about it, get a petition signed, whatever it is that needs to be done. Valve will listen if there's a big enough voice.
But... I'm not part of that demographic. I think the workshop is fine; thousands, literally, are looking at creations I've made. That alone is enough to keep me going. I started out with 0 followers and I now have 4. I'm happy with those statistics, and if Valve does change the workshop... that's just part of the market, I'll have to learn to adapt. But as of right now... I don't see anything wrong with the workshop. I'll do me, and you do you. But ranting and raving on a forum designed to promote a competition isn't going to change anything.
You contradict yourself in your own post and you're still not presenting any kind of argument that addresses the very real ethical dilemma of the Steam Workshop and crowdsourcing platforms like it. Just because you don't see a problem with something doesn't make it legal or ethical. I have tried to contact Valve, I've brought this issue up on Reddit multiple times, I've put together promotional materials for other Workshop creators to help them get noticed. We can't simultaneously be "a big enough voice" and not say anything about the status of the Workshop. I've addressed these same ridiculous straw man arguments every single time I'm spoken up about this problem and I will no doubt have to listen to them a hundred more times in the future. Meanwhile, this contest doesn't even bother to adhere to US contest law (where Valve is based), has no state exclusions (despite violating contest laws of multiple states), it all just seems like they're making it up as they go with little regard for anyone but themselves.
No If I was telling you to do that I would just say it, honestly I'm not the type to beat around the bush.
Getting to the meat of the issue here though... that's great that all of those people feel the need to complain about a broken system and not really do anything about it except.... post a reddit about it. But what's that going to change? If you want to make a difference you and everyone who feels like you needs to contact valve and say something about it, get a petition signed, whatever it is that needs to be done. Valve will listen if there's a big enough voice.
But... I'm not part of that demographic. I think the workshop is fine; thousands, literally, are looking at creations I've made. That alone is enough to keep me going. I started out with 0 followers and I now have 4. I'm happy with those statistics, and if Valve does change the workshop... that's just part of the market, I'll have to learn to adapt. But as of right now... I don't see anything wrong with the workshop. I'll do me, and you do you. But ranting and raving on a forum designed to promote a competition isn't going to change anything.
You contradict yourself in your own post and you're still not presenting any kind of argument that addresses the very real ethical dilemma of the Steam Workshop and crowdsourcing platforms like it. Just because you don't see a problem with something doesn't make it legal or ethical. I have tried to contact Valve, I've brought this issue up on Reddit multiple times, I've put together promotional materials for other Workshop creators to help them get noticed. We can't simultaneously be "a big enough voice" and not say anything about the status of the Workshop. I've addressed these same ridiculous straw man arguments every single time I'm spoken up about this problem and I will no doubt have to listen to them a hundred more times in the future. Meanwhile, this contest doesn't even bother to adhere to US contest law (where Valve is based), has no state exclusions (despite violating contest laws of multiple states), it all just seems like they're making it up as they go with little regard for anyone but themselves.
Or maybe polycount just wanted to do something nice for the community and help some of us get noticed. I'm not addressing the issue because I don't care, but you clearly do. I have nothing to prove to you, I don't know you and I don't care about the same issues you do. Again I was just trying to explain why some people might have gotten so many downvotes in a small amount of time. You're the one that turned this into a legal issue. You posted you had a bunch of downvotes, and so did other people I posted something in my opinion and you advanced with statements about reddit and how the workshop is super messed up. Which had nothing to do with what I was talking about you just took my reply and looked for something to argue about. And I don't have a reason to argue with you, but I am starting to get a bit irritated with how self righteous you're acting. Like I'm trying to tell you that everything you've ever done isn't good enough.
Look I don't understand why you're getting so worked up but I'm going to leave this where it is and let you be upset, because that's obviously what you want. Didn't come here to defend valve, or to debate legalities, just came here to make some skins for the contest and maybe get noticed, I had fun doing it and that's all there is too it. Anyways goodluck with your legal battle (hope you have a law degree), and getting enough people to sign a petition if that's what you decide to do. I'm done being insulted.
If Valve forced people who downvoted a skin to provide a short explanation, it would greatly increase the quality of submissions, and those that are "vote bombing" will have to come up with a good reason other than "I don't like it", but I digress. I'm not getting into the debate here.
I can't speak for anyone else, but even if there were no money involved, I would still create skins. I enjoy the process, and I enjoy seeing the end result. For me, it's about the pride of being able to say "Hey, I made that!", the fact that Valve is willing to pay us for what is essentially modding is just an added bonus.
If Valve forced people who downvoted a skin to provide a short explanation, it would greatly increase the quality of submissions, and those that are "vote bombing" will have to come up with a good reason other than "I don't like it", but I digress. I'm not getting into the debate here.
I can't speak for anyone else, but even if there were no money involved, I would still create skins. I enjoy the process, and I enjoy seeing the end result. For me, it's about the pride of being able to say "Hey, I made that!", the fact that Valve is willing to pay us for what is essentially modding is just an added bonus.
Pretty much how I see it too. I like to tinker, so creating skins is a really good outlet for me. I actually think it would be beneficial if they took away downvoting completely and just had a "yes, favorite, share" then anyone who didn't like the skin could just skip/ignore it and the no button could be replaced by a feedback button.
Or maybe polycount just wanted to do something nice for the community and help some of us get noticed. I'm not addressing the issue because I don't care, but you clearly do. I have nothing to prove to you, I don't know you and I don't care about the same issues you do. Again I was just trying to explain why some people might have gotten so many downvotes in a small amount of time. You're the one that turned this into a legal issue. You posted you had a bunch of downvotes, and so did other people I posted something in my opinion and you advanced with statements about reddit and how the workshop is super messed up. Which had nothing to do with what I was talking about you just took my reply and looked for something to argue about. And I don't have a reason to argue with you, but I am starting to get a bit irritated with how self righteous you're acting. Like I'm trying to tell you that everything you've ever done isn't good enough.
Look I don't understand why you're getting so worked up but I'm going to leave this where it is and let you be upset, because that's obviously what you want. Didn't come here to defend valve, or to debate legalities, just came here to make some skins for the contest and maybe get noticed, I had fun doing it and that's all there is too it. Anyways goodluck with your legal battle (hope you have a law degree), and getting enough people to sign a petition if that's what you decide to do. I'm done being insulted.
If you don't care, then don't reply to me anymore, pretty simple. I didn't bring up the Workshop problems, someone else did on the previous page, I simply posted that I was seeing abnormal voting trends based on my experience and data collected from the Workshop and other Workshop creators opinions. So far people have attacked my experience, my credibility, my ability and now you're framing me as being "self righteous" and unreasonable, none of which address the arguments of myself or the others who have now spoken up about how they feel in this thread. You continue to attack the messenger rather than the message. I'm not "irritated" nor have I insulted anyone in this thread.
I can't speak for anyone else, but even if there were no money involved, I would still create skins. I enjoy the process, and I enjoy seeing the end result. For me, it's about the pride of being able to say "Hey, I made that!", the fact that Valve is willing to pay us for what is essentially modding is just an added bonus.
It's not "modding" because we're not able to use any of our content in the game without it being approved and implemented by Valve, what we're doing here is clearly "spec work". I would have no issue if I could create content and release it to the community for free, but instead things are moving in the complete opposite direction with Valve banning servers that implement custom content. Valve already backpedaled on the Skyrim paid Workshop because people were upset about the system and creators only getting 25% cut, yet a system where people are providing what amounts to thousands of finished assets that they can't use for free, can't use in their own games, and don't get paid for is fine?
I can't speak for anyone else, but even if there were no money involved, I would still create skins. I enjoy the process, and I enjoy seeing the end result. For me, it's about the pride of being able to say "Hey, I made that!", the fact that Valve is willing to pay us for what is essentially modding is just an added bonus.
It's not "modding" because we're not able to use any of our content in the game without it being approved and implemented by Valve, what we're doing here is clearly "spec work". I would have no issue if I could create content and release it to the community for free. Valve already backpedaled on the Skyrim paid Workshop because people were upset about the system and creators only getting 25% cut, yet a system where people are providing what amounts to thousands of finished assets that they can't use for free, can't use in their own games, and don't get paid for is fine?
You can mod the files to use your own skins and stickers in-game on an offline match. Valve owns the servers so they get to say what content is in them.
You can mod the files to use your own skins and stickers in-game on an offline match. Valve owns the servers so they get to say what content is in them.
This is false, Valve will ban privately owned servers from the server browser for hosting custom content. You can use your content only in offline bot games, which requires a hacky workaround and if you forget to overwrite your files VAC will kick you from online games instantly. Considering a large part of skins is showing off to other players, it seems like a pretty lame technicality to try to use to justify not allowing mods.
You can mod the files to use your own skins and stickers in-game on an offline match. Valve owns the servers so they get to say what content is in them.
This is false, Valve will ban privately owned servers from the server browser for hosting custom content. You can use your content only in offline bot games, which requires a hacky workaround and if you forget to overwrite your files VAC will kick you from online games instantly. Considering a large part of skins is showing off to other players, it seems like a pretty lame technicality to try to use to justify not allowing mods.
Those players aren't paying you to be able to see your skin in valve's servers, further more because your server would be hosting their official content they still get the final say. Offline match is what I said, if you want to see your skin in-game there is a way to do it, it's easy, I made a tutorial for it. If you haven't messed with game files on that scale before then you shouldn't do it. Vac kicks you from offline games because your items_game.txt doesn't match the servers, which is why you always make a backup of your files first. These are all things modders would be familiar with.
Those players aren't paying you to be able to see your skin in valve's servers, further more because your server would be hosting their official content they still get the final say. Offline match is what I said, if you want to see your skin in-game there is a way to do it, it's easy, I made a tutorial for it. If you haven't messed with game files on that scale before then you shouldn't do it. Vac kicks you from offline games because your items_game.txt doesn't match the servers, which is why you always make a backup of your files first. These are all things modders would be familiar with.
So what you're saying is that it's nothing like modding? Got it.
I've put multiple skins in the game and I've made multiple videos to show off my skins in game. Once again you're attempting to discredit my opinion by suggesting that I'm not experienced enough, it's an intellectually dishonest debate tactic. Just like claiming I insulted you in the same post where you insulted me.
Those players aren't paying you to be able to see your skin in valve's servers, further more because your server would be hosting their official content they still get the final say. Offline match is what I said, if you want to see your skin in-game there is a way to do it, it's easy, I made a tutorial for it. If you haven't messed with game files on that scale before then you shouldn't do it. Vac kicks you from offline games because your items_game.txt doesn't match the servers, which is why you always make a backup of your files first. These are all things modders would be familiar with.
So what you're saying is that it's nothing like modding? Got it.
I've put multiple skins in the game and I've made multiple videos to show off my skins in game. Once again you're attempting to discredit my opinion by suggesting that I'm not experienced enough, it's an intellectually dishonest debate tactic. Just like claiming I insulted you in the same post where you insulted me.
What you said is "modding". Definition of Mod: make modifications to; modify. What you are doing to the game's items_game.txt and the vtf files is considered modding because you're making a modification to those items to allow you to use your skin in-game. I never personally attacked you by saying you weren't experienced enough, I was speaking generally not specifically.
What you said is "modding". Definition of Mod: make modifications to; modify. What you are doing to the game's items_game.txt and the vtf files is considered modding because you're making a modification to those items to allow you to use your skin in-game. I never personally attacked you by saying you weren't experienced enough, I was speaking generally not specifically.
I'm not going to argue over the definition of a "mod". Mods were free, done by fans of the game to improve the game to their liking. The Steam Workshop is people who don't even play the game (CLE-GFX has ZERO bomb defuses in CS:GO) creating content with the intent of making money. It also just so happens that the people who make the most money are connected with people who work at Valve.
What you said is "modding". Definition of Mod: make modifications to; modify. What you are doing to the game's items_game.txt and the vtf files is considered modding because you're making a modification to those items to allow you to use your skin in-game. I never personally attacked you by saying you weren't experienced enough, I was speaking generally not specifically.
I'm not going to argue over the definition of a "mod". Mods were free, done by fans of the game to improve the game to their liking. The Steam Workshop is people who don't even play the game (CLE-GFX has ZERO bomb defuses in CS:GO) creating content with the intent of making money. It also just so happens that the people who make the most money are connected with people who work at Valve.
I'm not going to argue over the definition of a "mod". Mods were free, done by fans of the game to improve the game to their liking. The Steam Workshop is people who don't even play the game (CLE-GFX has ZERO bomb defuses in CS:GO) creating content with the intent of making money. It also just so happens that the people who make the most money are connected with people who work at Valve.
Not everyone does it for the money.
LOL Please, go ask the top 5 CS:GO skin creators whether or not the money is a factor in whether or not they create content for the Workshop.
I'm not going to argue over the definition of a "mod". Mods were free, done by fans of the game to improve the game to their liking. The Steam Workshop is people who don't even play the game (CLE-GFX has ZERO bomb defuses in CS:GO) creating content with the intent of making money. It also just so happens that the people who make the most money are connected with people who work at Valve.
Not everyone does it for the money.
LOL Please, go ask the top 5 CS:GO skin creators whether or not the money is a factor in whether or not they create content for the Workshop.
You keep referring to "5" skin creators. just look on the official content page, there's far more than just... 5.
Sorry Endrit, I am your supporter but I have to strongly disagree here. I am on workshop for over an year and I think that atleast some of my skins could be very simply in game and there would be no problem with them. I am also playing CSGO since 2014 and I am very active there. So it is more then upsetting to see some people such as non-csgo player Chris Lee (CLEgfx) getting 3 skins in single case - or GuardianGear (! guy who NEVER EVER played the game, zero achievements - all his game time is from workbench) getting accepted is just simply wrong. Workshop is something meant for community, Valve should add skins (in my opinion) from actual players of the game as we have passion for it and for alot of us just the feeling of having the skin ingame is so precious and we dont do it only for money.
I disagree, I think whether the person plays the game is irrelevant. Your workshop submissions aren't any better than clegfx's just because you've played the game more than him. For example I started playing CS with CS Source in about 2007, that doesn't mean I am more entitled to have my designs accepted than you.
If I started making things for the DOTA2 workshop even though I don't play DOTA2, does that mean my submissions should never be accepted into the game in your opinion?
From 13 pages of my favourited skins only 2 are actually implemented in game. And a lot of them is from CLEgfx. Most of them comes from same artists. It's just my honest choice for what I'd love to see in game. That's why I disagree with argument that Valve implementing artwork from same artists as some kind of corruption/indication of a problem in the system, because it just doesn't make sense to me when I get same kind of result through my own honest voting process. Tell me, is it different for you, do you have all your favourited skins from different artists each?
edit: Counted up my favourites, exact stats: Total- 125 skins; Number of authors I've voted only single skin from as my favourite - just 11; Most skins from a single author - 11(From Millenia).
I disagree, I think whether the person plays the game is irrelevant. Your workshop submissions aren't any better than clegfx's just because you've played the game more than him. For example I started playing CS with CS Source in about 2007, that doesn't mean I am more entitled to have my designs accepted than you.
If I started making things for the DOTA2 workshop even though I don't play DOTA2, does that mean my submissions should never be accepted into the game in your opinion?
No, I am not saying my submissions are better or anything, I am aware he is more talented. But I say that workshop should be meant for the players of the game. Because even dota2 and csgo have alot of talented designers that actually play the game. So yeah, I think if you started making stuff for DOTA2 and you werent playing the game, I think you shouldnt get the stuff accepted because I just feel like it is kinda unfair to actual game players. Also you would be obviously only doing it for money and I am not huge fan if this attitidue.
Just because someone doesn't play the game it doesn't make skin he made less awesome than it is. If the skin is good enough for me to want to see it in game then I'm all in for it to be added.
Also you would be obviously only doing it for money and I am not huge fan if this attitidue.
Literally everyone on the workshop is trying to get accepted for the money. Is it nice to see something I created in the game? Sure it is. But would I actively spend a LOT of my free time trying to get one of my designs accepted just for that reason? No, that'd be ridiculous. Nobody spends months/years creating csgo skins for that reason, since skins are literally useless unless they are accepted and your chances of getting accepted are astronomically low.
People who genuinely enjoy making content for games for free are modding games, making skyrim and fallout mods etc, producing good quality content that people can actually get their hands on.
So yeah, I think if you started making stuff for DOTA2 and you werent
playing the game, I think you shouldnt get the stuff accepted because I
just feel like it is kinda unfair to others.
But this is a fairly arbitrary reason for saying it's unfair don't you think? I'm sure everyone has ideas of how the workshop could be more "fair" but in the end Valve doesn't care about fairness. They're not a charity, they just want content that will make them money.
Literally everyone on the workshop is trying to get accepted for the money. Is it nice to see something I created in the game? Sure it is. But would I actively spend a LOT of my free time trying to get one of my designs accepted just for that reason? No, that'd be ridiculous. Nobody spends months/years creating csgo skins for that reason, since skins are literally useless unless they are accepted and your chances of getting accepted are astronomically low.
People who genuinely enjoy making content for games for free are modding games, making skyrim and fallout mods etc, producing good quality content that people can actually get their hands on.
But this is a fairly arbitrary reason for saying it's unfair don't you think? I'm sure everyone has ideas of how the workshop could be more "fair" but in the end Valve doesn't care about fairness. They're not a charity, they just want content that will make them money.
Saying that Valve shouldn't have to treat it's customers/employees/contractors fairly because "they're not a charity" is a terrible argument to hinge your support of the Workshop on. Also, by your own logic, the Workshop creators are also not a charity and have every right to call out unfair practices when they see them especially considering they're all paying customers. Even Gabe Newell himself has basically said the only way to change anything at Valve is to cause a big enough ruckus on the internet that they notice, like what happened with Skyrim mods, or when they added an arbitration clause to the subscriber agreement to block class action suits, because apparently the only thing effective in getting them to change their practices is loudly and publicly shaming them.
Literally everyone on the workshop is trying to get accepted for the money. Is it nice to see something I created in the game? Sure it is. But would I actively spend a LOT of my free time trying to get one of my designs accepted just for that reason? No, that'd be ridiculous. Nobody spends months/years creating csgo skins for that reason, since skins are literally useless unless they are accepted and your chances of getting accepted are astronomically low.
People who genuinely enjoy making content for games for free are modding games, making skyrim and fallout mods etc, producing good quality content that people can actually get their hands on.
But this is a fairly arbitrary reason for saying it's unfair don't you think? I'm sure everyone has ideas of how the workshop could be more "fair" but in the end Valve doesn't care about fairness. They're not a charity, they just want content that will make them money.
Saying that Valve shouldn't have to treat it's customers/employees/contractors fairly because "they're not a charity" is a terrible argument to hinge your support of the Workshop on. Also, by your own logic, the Workshop creators are also not a charity and have every right to call out unfair practices when they see them especially considering they're all paying customers. Even Gabe Newell himself has basically said the only way to change anything at Valve is to cause a big enough ruckus on the internet that they notice, like what happened with Skyrim mods, or when they added an arbitration clause to the subscriber agreement to block class action suits, because apparently the only thing effective in getting them to change their practices is loudly and publicly shaming them.
I happen to think Valve treats workshop creators pretty well. I wish they'd accept stuff from more new workshoppers like everyone else, but other than that, what do they do wrong? I don't think only accepting submissions from people who play the game would be fair at all.
I happen to think Valve treats workshop creators pretty well. I wish they'd accept stuff from more new workshoppers like everyone else, but other than that, what do they do wrong? I don't think only accepting submissions from people who play the game would be fair at all.
You've also been paid for one of your contributions.
I think that myself and others have already outlined many aspects of the Workshop that we find troublesome and have been met with attacks on our character, experience, abilities, told that Valve doesn't have to worry about being fair or how they treat their customers, etc. If you'd like to try to construct an argument as to why a multibillion dollar company is entitled to skirt the intent of the law as far as fair wages go, I'd be more than happy to hear it. If a growing segment of their paying customers are starting to get upset, then they should probably worry about it.
everybody freaking the f*** out about votes and shit and i am just here waiting for the results bracing myself to be disappointed is the stuff about the results coming one week after the competition confirmed somewhere or who came up with that?
I happen to think Valve treats workshop creators pretty well. I wish they'd accept stuff from more new workshoppers like everyone else, but other than that, what do they do wrong? I don't think only accepting submissions from people who play the game would be fair at all.
You've also been paid for one of your contributions.
I think that myself and others have already outlined many aspects of the Workshop that we find troublesome and have been met with attacks on our character, experience, abilities, told that Valve doesn't have to worry about being fair or how they treat their customers, etc. If you'd like to try to construct an argument as to why a multibillion dollar company is entitled to skirt the intent of the law as far as fair wages go, I'd be more than happy to hear it. If a growing segment of their paying customers are starting to get upset, then they should probably worry about it.
Yes they accepted one of my skins, and I was someone who hasn't been accepted before and have no ties with Valve, so that shows that they do accept work from new creators. Not as often as they should IMO but you can't deny that those people who consistently get accepted make good quality content.
Yes they accepted one of my skins, and I was someone who hasn't been accepted before and have no ties with Valve, so that shows that they do accept work from new creators. Not as often as they should IMO but you can't deny that those people who consistently get accepted make good quality content.
Oh that totally changes my opinion, clearly because Valve has included your skin it totally invalidates the criticism that they repeatedly include the same artists time and time again and for the most part ignore the rest of the community, now I totally see the error of my ways. Nobody is arguing that these people don't create quality content, but they are upset that people who create content that is just as good as these people are consistently snubbed in favor of the same people... who have friends at Valve. Meanwhile there are workshoppers in other countries who aren't privileged enough to rub elbows with Valve employees who are roped into the Workshop because it is advertising that they pay people literally life changing amounts of money (With no evidence I might add, as well as preventing accepted Workshop artists from sharing their revenue, incredibly shady and again skirting the intent of the law). How do you feel about the fact that there are people who can't find work in their home countries who resort to working for free because of a chance they might get paid a life changing sum of money? Do you really think this is an ethical way to do business? Fun fact: Piecework (work that is only paid for once it is accepted) was a foundation of the sweatshop system. You also might want to ask why one of the Workshop creators in this contest said in her entry post that she wouldn't break any copyright laws because "her manager" was checking over her work before she submitted.
Offering people a substantial financial incentive to get them to work for free is an incredibly dangerous thing to do and if you're going to do that, you bear some responsibility for what happens.
There are other Workshoppers in this same thread who have multiple items in TF2 and DotA2 who are complaining about the exact same things I am. As I pointed out previously in the thread, Anuxinamoon and TF2 workshop artists have both within the past 4 months raised issues they had with the Workshop very publicly and the silence from Valve has been deafening. It's fine that you feel that you've discovered the magical dance you need to do to please Valve, but it doesn't invalidate others' arguments for changing the Workshop to function more fairly. If you're fine with watching the industry move towards content creation that doesn't compensate 98% percent of the people creating content, that's fine, but I don't agree with you and unless you can construct some kind of actual argument that doesn't move the goalposts yet again or actually deals with the ethics of unpaid labor you're not going to change my mind.
Lets all smoke some weed and chill..... Peace and harmony homies.
*Pass the blunt
ain't nothin' wrong with a bit of discourse when the workshop is in a pretty sloppy situation currently. Nothin' wrong with people speaking their mind, I agree that maybe a bit less vitriol would do good for the discussion, but this definitely is a conversation that's worth having.
My only advice to you guys is to treat workshop as a place to make art, get beter and maaaaybe get paid at some point. Artists always did stuff in their free time. At least I did. If your intention is to practice, do stuff the best as you can, make the next one better as previous one, you win no matter what. In Dota Workshop I saw many people who did very bad sets a year ago, yet now yeach one of them blow my mind. At this point those people could get a job in game industry easy.
Workshop is also different from Modding. People who like doing mods can make them now for dota 2 Wait and this will maybe come to CS with Source 2 as well.
Replies
They ask people to specifically decide if they want to see your design in the game, not if they think it looks cool or if you want to support someone who put many hours of work behind a design. There are some really colourful - and quite honestly awesome looking - designs which just don't fit into the game. If people vote no on those they don't hate you and often don't even dislike your skin. They just help valve to keep cs:go awesome by giving them their honest opinion.
Just think about incredibly good food. I doubt there is any food that would get 90% of the people to vote for if they are asked wether they want to see it on the table in 2 hours (maybe pizza :awesome: )
I am sure there are people who vote down 90%, but I highly doubt they mean to harm you, they just upvote what they absolutely love. Since there are so many skins in the workshop they are helping Valve a lot. If every decent item was at 90%ish that would not help anyone.
The whole voting system would be useless without the possibilty to downvote an item. At the moment there are more than 1000 times as many submissions as accepted skins. Stop being little crybabys about the downvotes and think about how you can improve your designs.
I have skins that went from 70% down to 40% and the other way around. It seems perfectly normal.
YES YOU ARE WORKING FOR FREE. Please don't be this dense. Valve isn't giving people an opportunity, they're asking people to gamble with their hard work in a rigged game.
Is this a joke? The last case included 3 skins from the same creator who made a commercial with Danny Trejo in it. Youtubers and game casters also get fast tracked into the Workshop. It might be easy to see the Workshop as a fair system when you've been paid, but when you've spent months working on workshop stuff and only see 1-2 skins from new creators every 3-4 months it's hard to feel like it's much more than gambling.
My opinion is that it probably did not, and that even if it did, there really is not much point worrying about it ...
The same thing happens with the Dota2 workshop. Artists get all caught up with "promotional material", because some content that got accepted in the past came with SFM videos or similar seemingly impressive extras. But at the end of the day, the artists getting things accepted on a regular basis are the one crafting great content.
Now I don't disagree about the fact that this is far from a great system, and I get your point about it feeling like gambling. All I am saying is that there are some things worth worrying about, and some not so much
Valve's pitch was that they were democratizing game development, but that's not what it feels like. Skins used to be free, now we have no way to release skins, we can't even use them on unofficial servers.
But to address the other issue you are all seeming to have with your skins getting down voted... it's completely normal to have a positive percentage when you go to bed and then a negative when you wake up. You have to remember that there is a large workshop audience that is awake when we are asleep. So of course there's going to be a surge of downvotes in a small amount of time. Also... you have to take into account WHEN you post it... did you post it on the weekend? Did you post it on a Holiday weekend? Did you post it the day after a holiday? Did you post at night, or in the day? Did you post it during an event?
There's too many variables to just "narrow it down to manipulation of votes". Now I'm not saying no one ever does that, but I'm saying... there's a large audience during the weekends (new players/casual players), holidays, holiday weekends, opposite time of day. I think this is something a lot of cs workshopers fail to realize. Because everyone is so caught up in getting a skin into a case they start to lose focus on having fun and creating unique original content. I think Valve's biggest thing is they are always looking for something new, so that when the current trend (of what people like) is over, they can start distributing the next thing. Maybe that's why "the same 5 people" always get their skins in and noticed, is because they're being innovative and understand design and also enjoy making skins. While the rest of the cs:go community is too busy fighting and trying to get skins in... they're doing what they love.
Also the reason Valve's being "non-transparent" about the voting is because they want to avoid vote manipulation I'm sure. So they don't say "oh these are the winners" I almost would bet that when they announce the winners they will get both a surge of up and down votes.
Anyways... that's just my personal opinion, as someone who enjoys making skins. Do I want to get a case in? Absolutely; it'd help me go to college for the same thing I'm sitting here doing night after night. Then I could make skins for a game company, such as Valve. But... it's not everything...
They open the workshop, see how many submissions there are, go "fuck that" and then just hop straight to the profiles of their favorites. Everyone knows who they are. It happens literally every single case, time and time again. Coridium, while he makes fantastic skins, has gotten 4 skins in a row the past few cases, 2 of them being from 2013, and the other from 2014. This isn't valve picking out the best of the best on the workshop, this is valve picking out things from the same people that they always pick from, or just started picking from. It's a problem. "Spend more time on your skins and you'll become one of them". Give me a break.
It doesn't matter how much time you put into your skins if valve never once actually looks at it, right? You can put in hours and hours into your skins but if valve is constantly just defaulting to the exact same people ( or adding multiple from a single person, thus making it even less likely to go browse the workshop ) then you're literally never going to be seen unless you get lucky and valve actually decides to browse around on the workshop. There are ways to get noticed, sure, but you've seen what they are. Look at how redmoon had those little videos they could post onto reddit, get tons of exposure. Look how Cleg pimped his things out and then got Danny fucking Trejo to promote his stuff.
This is how valve notices people now if they at all bother to try and find some other skins from newer people. It's not the pure quality of your skin, it's not the vote percentage, it's not how nicely your gun would fit the game or how well it's done on it's own; it's how much time you pump into insane marketing, or you get lucky and they stumble across your skin and it's good enough to be added, or you have prior connections to people on the cs team. Come on dude, get real. I'm happy that you got some stuff ingame, but the system is not hunkey dorey just because you're apparently above it now.
As for the rest of your defense of the Workshop system, I'm not going to keep replying to the same arguments over and over. The current Workshop system doesn't treat creators particularly fairly. I've been modding Valve games since HL1, I remember when mods were free and not just a big spec work program. I've worked in the game industry for 10 years. If a company was going around asking people to perpetually create art tests until they found an asset they liked and wanted to use people would call it a scam, but when Valve does it it's fine. There was just a thread in General Discussion about another contest that was criticizing this exact thing.
All I want is to see the Workshop live up to the high expectations that Valve has set for it, but it currently does not. If you want to change my opinion then come up with an argument that doesn't frame Valve as some kind of benevolent deity that we just have to do the right magic dance for to appease.
We don't condone shouting matches here. It looks like this thread might be heading that way. If it does, we'll kindly give out 2 week temporary bans to help people cool off a bit.
Please give this part of our rules a read-through.
http://polycount.com/discussion/63361/information-about-polycount-new-member-introductions/p1#respect
Thanks.
Valve "scamming people" is practically the definition for every single art driven job criteria. They take a look at your "art tests" and decide if they could use your style/talent. If you hate the workshop so much, and valve... maybe you'd be more suited working somewhere/on something else. I'm sure Valve's not going to just give handouts to people who talk crap about them. Would you want an employee who distrusts/bashes on your company? The smart answer is: no. Because those people are liabilities. Think about it... if Valve gave you a job and you went around purposely damaging their image... would they want to keep you? Or use anything you've contributed? I know I wouldn't.
No one is forcing you to make skins for valve/cs:go. You made that decision, I'm sorry you feel like you've been cheated out of something but you have to realize that Valve didn't have to enable the workshop and didn't have to give anyone any money. They're giving Non-Employees a chance to earn money from them, which in my opinion, is practically unheard of. So basically... the way I see it... is, if you're complaining about Valve, the workshop, cs:go and not having YOUR content in-game... remember that you aren't their employee, they don't owe you anything.
Edit Note: I was just trying to explain why some peoples finishes may have experienced negative votes.
@Eric Chadwick Alright no problem
Now you're saying I shouldn't speak up about problems I see with the Workshop because it might upset Valve? How deliciously dystopian the new economy is looking. The point of the Workshop isn't supposed to be Valve giving "handouts" it's supposed to be them allowing creatives to "democratize" game development and make money, remember? If Valve wants to advertise over and over again that the Steam Workshop is good for content creators then it has to prove it.
Also, voluntary labor is illegal according to the fair labor standards act, this conveniently doesn't apply to independent contractors (what Valve classifies their Workshop artists as). However continually not paying contractors will earn you a bad reputation, just as it's earning Valve. I know it is, because every single time I speak up about this more and more Workshop creators contact me with their own concerns about the way the Workshop is run, some of them full time content creators. The TF2 Workshoppers recently brought up a number of issues with the Workshop on the TF2 subreddit, Polycount's own Anuxinamoon wrote a lengthy post on the DotA2 subreddit about the issues with the Workshop with a lot of support from the community, Valve didn't respond.
You can try to belittle me as much as you want about how I feel about the ethics of the Steam Workshop, but at the end of the day you're not making an argument, you're just telling me to shut up and stop complaining.
only sound logical that Valve like to work more with already "successful" Designers.
Because:
1. They know, they maintain quality and good designs.
2. It does let Valve maintain reliable quality overall and get them a good image.
3. It isn't any different in other company's. They want the "best of the best" if you can't reach it you're out, it's as easy as that.
4. If they would add more different designs, they would risk to loose certain "favors/fan groups". (aka. Asiimov)
(Since a lot of people like what they know and are skeptical about new stuff.)
5. If Valve wouldn't support them, they probably "take the money and leave"
6. If you don't want to cooperate "more" not "once" with Valve in the future, then you shouldn't create skins.
Overall:
1. Keep going and build connections with other Designers (Why does Valve need to do it with Polycount? If they could make their contest on steam?)
It's a perfect opportunity for us to find new partners and cooperation's. Not only the contest does count here!
2. At the end Valve decides the outcome which skin they'll add, the numbers in the community are just a rough estimation about the likeliness and preferences from the fan base.
3. If they see someone is making progress or might do exactly what they want to have/see, they add him to the list and it's successors.
4. I guess at least the most of us are grown up men/women to understand the situation, so stop the fight and help each other
5. I've seen so many cool finishes but: Do the finishes fit the tiers (blue,purple,pink,red)? Does it fit the game? Does the design "connect" to the game?
(Why else would they choose such a difficult theme which has almost nothing to do with the game. Our task was it to find a good design which fit's the theme AND the game equally. That's some questions we should have asked ourself.)
6. With the said above it implies why we should use a WIP post to present our work in a detailed presentation. (They even "mentioned" that, constructive criticism would be nice to get some inputs from other designers, (keyword: "cooperation") in the main post)
I hope that answered some question's and put an end to the (in my opinion) "unnecessary" contention's about "views/unfairness/negative feedback".
I would like to keep it neutral and friendly here, we aren't Teenagers anymore ;P ("cyka blyat")
Still i wish you all the best of luck!
Cheers! Foxy
Ps: And yes it is kind of unfair, but you don't get anything presented in the "bad wide world" of economics and management, so bear with it
Getting to the meat of the issue here though... that's great that all of those people feel the need to complain about a broken system and not really do anything about it except.... post a reddit about it. But what's that going to change? If you want to make a difference you and everyone who feels like you needs to contact valve and say something about it, get a petition signed, whatever it is that needs to be done. Valve will listen if there's a big enough voice.
But... I'm not part of that demographic. I think the workshop is fine; thousands, literally, are looking at creations I've made. That alone is enough to keep me going. I started out with 0 followers and I now have 4. I'm happy with those statistics, and if Valve does change the workshop... that's just part of the market, I'll have to learn to adapt. But as of right now... I don't see anything wrong with the workshop. I'll do me, and you do you. But ranting and raving on a forum designed to promote a competition isn't going to change anything.
I wish there was a way to get this topic back on track so I'll just say this, you all are welcome to check out my workshop, I know I haven't done much for very long, but I appreciate any support or feedback. Thanks to everyone, and goodluck
Look I don't understand why you're getting so worked up but I'm going to leave this where it is and let you be upset, because that's obviously what you want. Didn't come here to defend valve, or to debate legalities, just came here to make some skins for the contest and maybe get noticed, I had fun doing it and that's all there is too it. Anyways goodluck with your legal battle (hope you have a law degree), and getting enough people to sign a petition if that's what you decide to do. I'm done being insulted.
I can't speak for anyone else, but even if there were no money involved, I would still create skins. I enjoy the process, and I enjoy seeing the end result. For me, it's about the pride of being able to say "Hey, I made that!", the fact that Valve is willing to pay us for what is essentially modding is just an added bonus.
It's not "modding" because we're not able to use any of our content in the game without it being approved and implemented by Valve, what we're doing here is clearly "spec work". I would have no issue if I could create content and release it to the community for free, but instead things are moving in the complete opposite direction with Valve banning servers that implement custom content. Valve already backpedaled on the Skyrim paid Workshop because people were upset about the system and creators only getting 25% cut, yet a system where people are providing what amounts to thousands of finished assets that they can't use for free, can't use in their own games, and don't get paid for is fine?
I've put multiple skins in the game and I've made multiple videos to show off my skins in game. Once again you're attempting to discredit my opinion by suggesting that I'm not experienced enough, it's an intellectually dishonest debate tactic. Just like claiming I insulted you in the same post where you insulted me.
Please, go ask the top 5 CS:GO skin creators whether or not the money is a factor in whether or not they create content for the Workshop.
Where can we see the winning finishes?
I disagree, I think whether the person plays the game is irrelevant. Your workshop submissions aren't any better than clegfx's just because you've played the game more than him. For example I started playing CS with CS Source in about 2007, that doesn't mean I am more entitled to have my designs accepted than you.
If I started making things for the DOTA2 workshop even though I don't play DOTA2, does that mean my submissions should never be accepted into the game in your opinion?
edit: Counted up my favourites, exact stats:
Total- 125 skins;
Number of authors I've voted only single skin from as my favourite - just 11;
Most skins from a single author - 11(From Millenia).
People who genuinely enjoy making content for games for free are modding games, making skyrim and fallout mods etc, producing good quality content that people can actually get their hands on.
But this is a fairly arbitrary reason for saying it's unfair don't you think? I'm sure everyone has ideas of how the workshop could be more "fair" but in the end Valve doesn't care about fairness. They're not a charity, they just want content that will make them money.
Saying that Valve shouldn't have to treat it's customers/employees/contractors fairly because "they're not a charity" is a terrible argument to hinge your support of the Workshop on. Also, by your own logic, the Workshop creators are also not a charity and have every right to call out unfair practices when they see them especially considering they're all paying customers. Even Gabe Newell himself has basically said the only way to change anything at Valve is to cause a big enough ruckus on the internet that they notice, like what happened with Skyrim mods, or when they added an arbitration clause to the subscriber agreement to block class action suits, because apparently the only thing effective in getting them to change their practices is loudly and publicly shaming them.
You've also been paid for one of your contributions.
I think that myself and others have already outlined many aspects of the Workshop that we find troublesome and have been met with attacks on our character, experience, abilities, told that Valve doesn't have to worry about being fair or how they treat their customers, etc. If you'd like to try to construct an argument as to why a multibillion dollar company is entitled to skirt the intent of the law as far as fair wages go, I'd be more than happy to hear it. If a growing segment of their paying customers are starting to get upset, then they should probably worry about it.
is the stuff about the results coming one week after the competition confirmed somewhere or who came up with that?
Offering people a substantial financial incentive to get them to work for free is an incredibly dangerous thing to do and if you're going to do that, you bear some responsibility for what happens.
There are other Workshoppers in this same thread who have multiple items in TF2 and DotA2 who are complaining about the exact same things I am. As I pointed out previously in the thread, Anuxinamoon and TF2 workshop artists have both within the past 4 months raised issues they had with the Workshop very publicly and the silence from Valve has been deafening. It's fine that you feel that you've discovered the magical dance you need to do to please Valve, but it doesn't invalidate others' arguments for changing the Workshop to function more fairly. If you're fine with watching the industry move towards content creation that doesn't compensate 98% percent of the people creating content, that's fine, but I don't agree with you and unless you can construct some kind of actual argument that doesn't move the goalposts yet again or actually deals with the ethics of unpaid labor you're not going to change my mind.
*Pass the blunt
Workshop is also different from Modding. People who like doing mods can make them now for dota 2