Yeah, that gory image, to best of my limited medical knowledge, is due to A.) the pretty obvious bulletholes B.) The reports that his body was run over by his brother as he was escaping, and C.) the large hole cut in the side of the body to access the organs was done by the coroner to get to the organs, perhaps not the coroner? I'm not exactly sure, but it was for a medical purpose. Very possibly I'm wrong about that last point, but that's what I'm led to believe.
I've been reading around that the cut in his side was from an emergency operation to get direct access to someone's organs called a thoracotomy. Fair warning googling that gets some pretty gore-ish operation photos considering it means opening up the thoracic cavity to poke around.
I guess it was probably done as a last ditch effort to keep him from dying during surgery. Maybe his lungs collapsed from injury, etc.
I've been reading around that the cut in his side was from an emergency operation to get direct access to someone's organs called a thoracotomy. Fair warning googling that gets some pretty gore-ish operation photos considering it means opening up the thoracic cavity to poke around.
I guess it was probably done as a last ditch effort to keep him from dying during surgery. Maybe his lungs collapsed from injury, etc.
nice find. the incision position and angle totally matches.
this totally debunks the theory of scapegoats.
Don't know if any of you have noticed but this bombing stinks, to many contradictions and coincidences. They got the perps case solved? CISPA pushed through?
These guys were being monitored by the FBI (fact), they are/were known and some people are saying (including their mother) grown by the same org who took them down.
I don't want to sound like a conspiracy quack but something is definitely amiss and should not be ignore because of conspiracy quacks like alex jones. Crude devices built by amateurs do not have sophisticated detonators.
The public is not to see where power lies, how it shapes policy, and for what ends. Rather, people are to hate and fear one another.
Noam Chomsky
What really bugs me about this is the 'lock-up' and razzia style search, and generally super-agressive reaction to these bombings, compared to the rather lax response to the Texas explosions.
These things were roughly equal of scale, the Boston Terrorism Boom actually having less casualties, probably less total victims, and I'm fairly certain less property damage too. But most importantly: the Texas explosion could have been prevented fairly easily for fucks sake, even us plebians know that fertilizer is explosive and can be used to make bombs, so we should pay attention to places where there are tonnes of the stuff. I mean, the last check-up was in 1985 and they were found to be in violation! I would assume that you would then go back fairly soon and check if they fixed things, no?
On the other hand, you cannot prevent terrorism. Because terrorism works by doing things we are not prepared for. You'll not see another 9/11 happen any more, not because the x-ray-scanners, nor the enhanced patdowns, but due to the pilot being locked out, and due to people now expecting a filled plane to be used as a weapon rather than held hostage for money. Terrorism (in the way the U.S. government sees them, as strategic hits from outside) is a mechanism that relies on black swans and a lot of... well, creativity. It's based on mutual knowledge/common knowledge. They know we know how they did 9/11, so they won't use it again.
In short: why does the hard-to-prevent event with (relatively) low impact get so much more governmental response than the easy-to-prevent event with high impact?
disclaimer: this is not to say that I think the deaths in Boston are 'worth less', neither am I implying that there is a conspiracy of sorts. It just really bugs me that there seems to be illogical prioritization.
In short: why does the hard-to-prevent event with (relatively) low impact get so much more governmental response than the easy-to-prevent event with high impact?
What really bugs me about this is the 'lock-up' and razzia style search, and generally super-agressive reaction to these bombings, compared to the rather lax response to the Texas explosions.
Where's the evidence of a lax response to the Texas explosion? Boston was more dramatic than a slow search & rescue.
Why the explosion happened? Texas is one of those states that think regulation hurts business. Comparing Texas & Massachusetts, you might as well be comparing two separate countries. Actually, when I moved to Texas a local saw my Massachusetts plates and said "welcome to America!"
Where's the evidence of a lax response to the Texas explosion? Boston was more dramatic than a slow search & rescue.
General media coverage, mostly. But also official coverage. This is a good illustration: http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog mentions Boston 30 times, but Texas only 3 times. Out of 6 sentences with the word "explosion" only 1 mentions Waco, and... 6 mention Boston. Texas is just a footnote in a Boston-centric broadcast.
In terms of actual response, not just words, there has been an immediate issue of tonnes of law enforcers, terrorism alert was instated to free up extra resources, people were ordered to stay in their homes, and they picked up a bunch of innocent people based on skin color and proximity.
Over in Waco, they should have papers stating black-on-white who was responsible for maintenance, inspections and so on. But so far there has not been any word of a team being sent after them, or suspects, or freeing up resources, just that "it will take months to figure out what happened".
Boston get the media, the FBI, the DHS, CIA, AmeriCorps and what other volunteer groups, moments of silence, delayed TV-shows.
Texas explosion had the same response teams from ATF and other agencies as the Oklahoma City bombing. Media coverage does not equal the level of response.
Don't know if any of you have noticed but this bombing stinks, to many contradictions and coincidences. They got the perps case solved? CISPA pushed through?
Hm, really such a sad event, especially attack people who just wanted to do something healthy for their life, minding their own business....that always piss me off. I mean, if you absolutely have something against politicians or any other group, at least go deal with those people directly (not bombing though) and leave people who mind their own business aside....
Saying that, as much as one feels sick for this even, i can't help but think how scary his witch hunt is as well.
I'm not going to debate to much about this topic, but for all those who watches start trek TNG....it's just sad after all these years, seing how correct the moral message of this episode still holds truth even nowdays...
(the whole situation reminds be all too much of this ep, somewhat similar story) Picard's civil rights speech - YouTube
Don't know if any of you have noticed but this bombing stinks, to many contradictions and coincidences. They got the perps case solved? CISPA pushed through?
These guys were being monitored by the FBI (fact), they are/were known and some people are saying (including their mother) grown by the same org who took them down.
I don't want to sound like a conspiracy quack but something is definitely amiss and should not be ignore because of conspiracy quacks like alex jones. Crude devices built by amateurs do not have sophisticated detonators.
The public is not to see where power lies, how it shapes policy, and for what ends. Rather, people are to hate and fear one another.
Noam Chomsky
A little food for thought, guess what? The FBI spend/wasted (depending on how you look at it) doing some information manipulation because the Internet-Investigation going on wasn't helping them and was doing more damage then good.
Basically, the FBI was able to slow down the innocent person blaming that places like Reddit were running bat-shit over for a couple of site-points.
It's a strange day when people come out as being more incompetent then a professional organization, it's almost as if all those movies we watch of young kids in school finding the bomb and disabling it, isn't true at all. /s
Yeah, that gory image, to best of my limited medical knowledge, is due to A.) the pretty obvious bulletholes B.) The reports that his body was run over by his brother as he was escaping, and C.) the large hole cut in the side of the body to access the organs was done by the coroner to get to the organs, perhaps not the coroner? I'm not exactly sure, but it was for a medical purpose. Very possibly I'm wrong about that last point, but that's what I'm led to believe.
I doubt that last point, they normally do a Y incision down the center of the chest. The photo looks like it was taken while he was still in the ER. The giant hole in his side also looks very irregular and not at all like something a surgeon would do. They might have widened an already open wound to get more access to the chest cavity but it doesn't look like the EMS people are solely responsible for that.
Besides I don't think it matters what killed him, the gash, the countless bullet wounds, being run over, or having an explosive blow up in his face, all where enough to take him down and I don't think any of it was related to torture, it's possible but if everything that they say happened to the guy, that more than explains just about everything.
I doubt that last point, they normally do a Y incision down the center of the chest. The photo looks like it was taken while he was still in the ER. The giant hole in his side also looks very irregular and not at all like something a surgeon would do. They might have widened an already open wound to get more access to the chest cavity but it doesn't look like the EMS people are solely responsible for that.
Besides I don't think it matters what killed him, the gash, the countless bullet wounds, being run over, or having an explosive blow up in his face, all where enough to take him down and I don't think any of it was related to torture, it's possible but if everything that they say happened to the guy, that more than explains just about everything.
Yeah I remember reading on reddit something about the reasoning for the hole in the side, in my skimming people were saying it may be a thoracatomy (which someone else already mentioned I believe). However, I don't buy that it was torture either. As you said, if the reports are accurate and all that stuff happened to him, it's pretty much pick your poison.
Yeah I remember reading on reddit something about the reasoning for the hole in the side, in my skimming people were saying it may be a thoracatomy (which someone else already mentioned I believe). However, I don't buy that it was torture either. As you said, if the reports are accurate and all that stuff happened to him, it's pretty much pick your poison.
Dr. David Schoenfeld said 26-year-old Tamerlan Tsarnaev was unconscious and had so many penetrating wounds when he arrived at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center early Friday that it isn't clear which ones killed him, and a medical examiner will have to determine the cause of death.
The doctor said he couldn't discuss specific treatments in the case except to say what is usually done in such circumstances, including putting a needle in the chest to relieve pressure that can damage blood vessels, and cutting open the chest and using rib-spreaders to let doctors drain blood in the sac around the heart that can put pressure on the heart and keep it from beating. "Once you've done all of those things ... if they don't respond there's really nothing you can do. You've exhausted the playbook," he said.
Honestly, I think all the FBI has to do to stop people from thinking it was setup, or these arent the actual guys, is just release the video of one of them actually dropping the bag on the street (that they say they have), rather than jut them walking down the street.
Honestly what baffles me even more than the actual bombing, is the sheer amount of lunacy and craziness this brings up in a lot of American people.
People confusing Chechnya with the Czech Republic (calling for it to be bombed), internet detectives fingering the wrong people multiple times, conspiracy theorists coming up with the most ridiculous conclusions ever, people actually buying into this #FreeJahar bullshit, Loonies like Glenn Beck claiming they know "the truth", etc...
To be honest I'm from Europe and 90% of the people I know could make that mistake, not really convinced that it's an American thing. In fact it's sort of worse for a European to get it wrong, considering the republic is in Europe. :thumbup:
Calling for it to be bombed borders on the insane though.
Laurens, the government's domestic and foreign policy is primarily to be blamed for lack of trust in Washington and thereby resulting in alternative theories (conspiracy or other wise)
despite FBI did not find any criminal history toward him, they have been warned by Russian security agent
---
I know there will be some stupid sentiment even in Boston, >_>,
and we will see more silly security measure @airport. it is one of the reason my dad would hire people to work on US area project instead going by himself.
All things that have seen dramatic cuts in American society. Until those numbers change we will see more and more mindless backlash which drives more hateful killings which drives more mindless backlash... down the drain we go. But we can stop it and we can reverse course. It all depends on where Americans decide to put their money.
The sad thing is, the more idle thumbs you have, the more people who know less about something are willing to have opinions about it, that's why alot 'stuff' that aren't really issues are becoming so exposed nowadays, coupled with the information form the internet, bam, instant fire.
We're not in the 90's anymore, were you are flooded with 10 different jobs, 5 different scholarships, and low rent. Some people are being pushed to the limit, and the only way they can even have a moment of elation is if they decided to see some random persons face on the news and mob-chase them down, just so they feel like they're back in the control of something and make their 'power' known.
So yeah, again, not to sully the event of Boston and those affected, but people themselves aren't usually the catalyst to a good ending.
BTW, the uncle of the kids called them 'losers' (he apparently knew the kids history of them being no good) and hopes that people can forgive his family and not stigmatize his people (I know it sounds ironic the way I wrote it, be he was being really humble and sincere about the forgivness part).
Also, MM, while it's true that's were conspiracy's are to those aforementioned reasons, alot of these crazy loon's tend to forget that the USA wasn't able to hide the fact that a president was boning his secretary (bad joke in this thread, I know, I know, sorry).
Also, MM, while it's true that's were conspiracy's are to those aforementioned reasons, alot of these crazy loon's tend to forget that the USA wasn't able to hide the fact that a president was boning his secretary (bad joke in this thread, I know, I know, sorry).
only if you are naive enough to believe that there weren't enough people inside Washington who wanted him caught.
not everything is a conspiracy, some things are just simple deduction based on past history and common sense.
I see that the utterly clueless Republicans were at it again, trying to get the surviving bomber classified as an enemy combatant. Though the white house just declared that won't be the case.
I'm glad there's more people who don't see this as a 'America is surrounded by deadly terrorist networks' moment but instead as another Newtown tragedy in the guise of waging jihad.
Replies
I guess it was probably done as a last ditch effort to keep him from dying during surgery. Maybe his lungs collapsed from injury, etc.
nice find. the incision position and angle totally matches.
this totally debunks the theory of scapegoats.
These guys were being monitored by the FBI (fact), they are/were known and some people are saying (including their mother) grown by the same org who took them down.
I don't want to sound like a conspiracy quack but something is definitely amiss and should not be ignore because of conspiracy quacks like alex jones. Crude devices built by amateurs do not have sophisticated detonators.
The public is not to see where power lies, how it shapes policy, and for what ends. Rather, people are to hate and fear one another.
Noam Chomsky
These things were roughly equal of scale, the Boston Terrorism Boom actually having less casualties, probably less total victims, and I'm fairly certain less property damage too. But most importantly: the Texas explosion could have been prevented fairly easily for fucks sake, even us plebians know that fertilizer is explosive and can be used to make bombs, so we should pay attention to places where there are tonnes of the stuff. I mean, the last check-up was in 1985 and they were found to be in violation! I would assume that you would then go back fairly soon and check if they fixed things, no?
On the other hand, you cannot prevent terrorism. Because terrorism works by doing things we are not prepared for. You'll not see another 9/11 happen any more, not because the x-ray-scanners, nor the enhanced patdowns, but due to the pilot being locked out, and due to people now expecting a filled plane to be used as a weapon rather than held hostage for money. Terrorism (in the way the U.S. government sees them, as strategic hits from outside) is a mechanism that relies on black swans and a lot of... well, creativity. It's based on mutual knowledge/common knowledge. They know we know how they did 9/11, so they won't use it again.
In short: why does the hard-to-prevent event with (relatively) low impact get so much more governmental response than the easy-to-prevent event with high impact?
disclaimer: this is not to say that I think the deaths in Boston are 'worth less', neither am I implying that there is a conspiracy of sorts. It just really bugs me that there seems to be illogical prioritization.
Where's the evidence of a lax response to the Texas explosion? Boston was more dramatic than a slow search & rescue.
Why the explosion happened? Texas is one of those states that think regulation hurts business. Comparing Texas & Massachusetts, you might as well be comparing two separate countries. Actually, when I moved to Texas a local saw my Massachusetts plates and said "welcome to America!"
General media coverage, mostly. But also official coverage. This is a good illustration:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog mentions Boston 30 times, but Texas only 3 times. Out of 6 sentences with the word "explosion" only 1 mentions Waco, and... 6 mention Boston. Texas is just a footnote in a Boston-centric broadcast.
In terms of actual response, not just words, there has been an immediate issue of tonnes of law enforcers, terrorism alert was instated to free up extra resources, people were ordered to stay in their homes, and they picked up a bunch of innocent people based on skin color and proximity.
Over in Waco, they should have papers stating black-on-white who was responsible for maintenance, inspections and so on. But so far there has not been any word of a team being sent after them, or suspects, or freeing up resources, just that "it will take months to figure out what happened".
Boston get the media, the FBI, the DHS, CIA, AmeriCorps and what other volunteer groups, moments of silence, delayed TV-shows.
Texas gets whatever left-over pity there is.
Hey, no danger of that!
Saying that, as much as one feels sick for this even, i can't help but think how scary his witch hunt is as well.
I'm not going to debate to much about this topic, but for all those who watches start trek TNG....it's just sad after all these years, seing how correct the moral message of this episode still holds truth even nowdays...
(the whole situation reminds be all too much of this ep, somewhat similar story)
Picard's civil rights speech - YouTube
[ame="
Basically, the FBI was able to slow down the innocent person blaming that places like Reddit were running bat-shit over for a couple of site-points.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/inside-the-investigation-of-the-boston-marathon-bombing/2013/04/20/19d8c322-a8ff-11e2-b029-8fb7e977ef71_story_1.html
It's a strange day when people come out as being more incompetent then a professional organization, it's almost as if all those movies we watch of young kids in school finding the bomb and disabling it, isn't true at all. /s
Besides I don't think it matters what killed him, the gash, the countless bullet wounds, being run over, or having an explosive blow up in his face, all where enough to take him down and I don't think any of it was related to torture, it's possible but if everything that they say happened to the guy, that more than explains just about everything.
Yeah I remember reading on reddit something about the reasoning for the hole in the side, in my skimming people were saying it may be a thoracatomy (which someone else already mentioned I believe). However, I don't buy that it was torture either. As you said, if the reports are accurate and all that stuff happened to him, it's pretty much pick your poison.
and yeah why would anyone largely report about an accidental explosion.
there is realy not that much to report about.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/04/21/boston-bombing-dead-suspect.html
Dr. David Schoenfeld said 26-year-old Tamerlan Tsarnaev was unconscious and had so many penetrating wounds when he arrived at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center early Friday that it isn't clear which ones killed him, and a medical examiner will have to determine the cause of death.
The doctor said he couldn't discuss specific treatments in the case except to say what is usually done in such circumstances, including putting a needle in the chest to relieve pressure that can damage blood vessels, and cutting open the chest and using rib-spreaders to let doctors drain blood in the sac around the heart that can put pressure on the heart and keep it from beating. "Once you've done all of those things ... if they don't respond there's really nothing you can do. You've exhausted the playbook," he said.
People confusing Chechnya with the Czech Republic (calling for it to be bombed), internet detectives fingering the wrong people multiple times, conspiracy theorists coming up with the most ridiculous conclusions ever, people actually buying into this #FreeJahar bullshit, Loonies like Glenn Beck claiming they know "the truth", etc...
Makes my head hurt
To be honest I'm from Europe and 90% of the people I know could make that mistake, not really convinced that it's an American thing. In fact it's sort of worse for a European to get it wrong, considering the republic is in Europe. :thumbup:
Calling for it to be bombed borders on the insane though.
as for stupidity...
http://www.cair.com/press-center/press-releases/11844-hate-crimes-in-ma-ny-follow-boston-bombings.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2311153/Abdullah-Faruque-Bangledeshi-man-beaten-revenge-attack-Boston-Marathon-bombings.html
Someone from government really needs to make a press conference making it clear that this kind of BS is unacceptable.
I don't know anyone who would make that mistake, and your average Brit is not particularly geographically inclined..
despite FBI did not find any criminal history toward him, they have been warned by Russian security agent
---
I know there will be some stupid sentiment even in Boston, >_>,
and we will see more silly security measure @airport. it is one of the reason my dad would hire people to work on US area project instead going by himself.
Education.
Economic opportunity.
All things that have seen dramatic cuts in American society. Until those numbers change we will see more and more mindless backlash which drives more hateful killings which drives more mindless backlash... down the drain we go. But we can stop it and we can reverse course. It all depends on where Americans decide to put their money.
War or education.
We're not in the 90's anymore, were you are flooded with 10 different jobs, 5 different scholarships, and low rent. Some people are being pushed to the limit, and the only way they can even have a moment of elation is if they decided to see some random persons face on the news and mob-chase them down, just so they feel like they're back in the control of something and make their 'power' known.
So yeah, again, not to sully the event of Boston and those affected, but people themselves aren't usually the catalyst to a good ending.
BTW, the uncle of the kids called them 'losers' (he apparently knew the kids history of them being no good) and hopes that people can forgive his family and not stigmatize his people (I know it sounds ironic the way I wrote it, be he was being really humble and sincere about the forgivness part).
Also, MM, while it's true that's were conspiracy's are to those aforementioned reasons, alot of these crazy loon's tend to forget that the USA wasn't able to hide the fact that a president was boning his secretary (bad joke in this thread, I know, I know, sorry).
only if you are naive enough to believe that there weren't enough people inside Washington who wanted him caught.
not everything is a conspiracy, some things are just simple deduction based on past history and common sense.
I'm glad there's more people who don't see this as a 'America is surrounded by deadly terrorist networks' moment but instead as another Newtown tragedy in the guise of waging jihad.