im ok with no backward compatibility it means they dont have to waste time space or resources of the ps4 to it. I never play old games on ps4 thats what my pc is for lol so doesnt bother me.
I was actually a bit impressed by Sony's reveal. The presentation overall was both tasteful and effective. It didn't have the kind of wizz-bang spectacle that usually pervades these events, but that kind of thing is a better fit for a circus like E3 anyway. Keeping it clean and professional was a good choice for the audience that this presentation was actually aimed at...developers.
Instead of cooking the PS4 up in an isolated lab in Tokyo, Sony assembled a crack team of highly experienced game developers to take the lead on the design of the system's architecture. A much greater focus on designing the console around modern development needs is an excellent choice, and one which I wasn't expecting from Sony. It sounds like the PS4 will be an easier platform for developers to work with.
I am actually going to wait for PS4 to sync in to the market before I buy it. I made a terrible mistake buying PS3 when it was sold for like $800.00 the first time it was out.
Price is a serious consideration. The PS4 definitely needs to launch at a lower price point than the PS3 did. $600 isn't going to fly in the current market.
Thanks to Nintendo launching the Wii U at $350, the base console price will allow for a little more wiggle room. But $600 is still too much. The PS4 needs to come in around the $400 - $500 range. Ideally they would have a premium model that wouldn't break $500, and lower tiered models that would be between $350 - $450.
Any new console is going to have a hard time with pricing in the current market. The existing consoles are just much more affordable and established alternatives. Most consumers aren't going to see the need to pick up the newer systems. Adoption rates will likely be lower than previous generations for both the PS4 and whatever Durango ends up being. We're already seeing this with the Wii U, the effect will be even more pronounced for Sony and Microsoft's offerings. This is the danger of prolonging a console cycle as long as this, and the diminishing returns of chasing graphical power.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a cell phone contract model with the Durango (and maybe the PS4 will do the same) - they've done test runs with the 360 and I've heard that it worked out great. The iPhone5 16gb without a contract runs about $650
A marketing approach like that could very well help them to move expensive hardware out of the gate. I'm not exactly sure what premium service they would charge for. Playstation Plus is nice, but they will need some slightly more upscale features for it before they can use it as a bargaining tool.
It's a matter of adjusting perceptions and expectations. And its also a matter of direct competition with the previous generation of hardware. The biggest competitor for the PS4 won't be the Durango. It's going to be the 360 and the PS3. (and to a lesser degree, the Wii U)
im ok with no backward compatibility it means they dont have to waste time space or resources of the ps4 to it.
I typically say that too, but I would prefer to be able to continue playing recent PS3 titles, so that I don't need both systems tied to my TV. I have the early PS3 version, so it's a bulky device, and doesn't stack well. If the PS4 is another rounded up/weird shape, I'll have problems keeping them together.
I really wish they had a system, where you could tie your game purchase/license to your account. But, you could deactivate the license, to sell the game. Then, when new systems come out, they could offer the game as a download, if you still own the license. Typically, it's not backwards compatible with the disc, but they tend to offer the game in their store (which is compatible).
I do wonder if the supercharged pc architecture and enhanced pc gpu will be as powerful as the blast processing sega gave us.
Jokes aside I think it was a pretty horrible presentation. Lots of corporate buzzwords were being thrown around only to be followed by powerpoint slides with more buzzwords. Proof is in the pudding, show by doing not saying.
If simplicity, accessability, innovation and ingenuity is what it's all about then show us how that actually translates into something tangible. Show us the box, how to navigate it, how to access your content and start a game and talk with your mates.
I thought it was kinda ironic that we were all watching a dodgy live stream that kept cutting out and buffering itself to see a presentation mostly focused on how awesome cloud streamed gaming is going to be...
if cloud gaming is anything like the streaming on that presentation feed then for that reason Im out haha
I think they kept it intentionally vague, to see what MS puts out there. So, they got to announce their system first, but not give away enough for MS to react. Funny thing is, I wonder if MS would really change anything, based on any specs Sony would have released.
Funny thing is, I wonder if MS would really change anything, based on any specs Sony would have released.
Probably not. Both of these companies have been working on these consoles long enough that it is probably too late to make any significant changes. Superficial tweaks are the best you are going to get at this juncture.
I don't think they held anything back to see how Microsoft reacts. I think they just want to save a few things to liven up their E3 presentation. The purpose of this presentation was to reassure investors and cater to developers. They can easily save the rest of the pertinent details for the media circus that is E3.
There's still time to make changes. I suspect the reason for not showing the Ps4 box was a sudden change in specs. 8GB of GDDR5 means a huge amount of physical space occupied on the PCB - and everything prior to the presentation indicated less. I suspect this was a recent change.
Does anyone think the controllers built-in speaker will be used by more then a handful (if that) of games? Seems like a pointless addition more then almost anything else.
Does anyone think the controllers built-in speaker will be used by more then a handful (if that) of games? Seems like a pointless addition more then almost anything else.
yup, it will be like Wii where you occasionally get surprised by it
Did anybody else watch this and get really excited but then rocked/cried themselves to sleep?
Everything looked great but I just kept thinking from a production standpoint just how much work is going to be needed. The general consensus from people so far is you get a bit more time per asset which is good and alot of procedural or mirrored assets so to maximise texture resolution and production time. But there's also massive emphasis on shaders and it looks like VFX artists are going to be huge soon. I honestly can't believe some of the stuff being run in real time, the particle/fluid systems is blowing my mind.
I do worry for the freelance industry as some of this stuff is going to need to be made in house and we might soon see cloth sim and 3d scanning taking over as there's not alot of artists out there who can reach the same level.
I'm also wondering who can afford to make these games? Seriously how expensive is it going to be? Production time and value are going to be alot grander surely. I wonder if this will push many devs out of the market or alternatively we shall see alot more stylised games to combat the production costs. Atleast this should keep the freelance industry going. I noticed they said about self publishing aswell which could be really interesting and should cut costs and open up the indie market possibly. I really hope we don't see publishers becoming even more scared of trying something new and we end up with generic titles everywhere.
The whole connectivity side I do question alot. Seems great for those with 80mb connections but even most of them have download limits. They may use a cloud like system but you still have to download that surely to your system from the source. I can see it maybe coming to the future but maybe not day one.
Overall I was thoroughly impressed. Was nice to feel excited again haha, like when I was 12 haha. Lots of unnecessary padding throughout but overall I really liked it. My iPhone can suggest games for me so that didn't need a 10 minute blah blah blah talk.
Also, Diablo 3 surely isn't blizzards next gen mmo? I will be fairly disappointed if so
I thought everything looked stunning, ue4 will surely be fixed soon, killzone was probably my favourite of the night but I will say nothing blew me away. I see a few issues in the hd screens popping up and I am still not a fan of the generic characters in watch dogs so far. Just a personal preference. But the sheer amount of assets and dynamics was fantastic to see on almost all titles.
I wonder how much was wishful thinking and how much is actually set in stone for the system. They kept it vague enough to put Microsoft in a bit if worry I think and be non committal in many aspects.
Did anybody else watch this and get really excited but then rocked/cried themselves to sleep?
Everything looked great but I just kept thinking from a production standpoint just how much work is going to be needed. The general consensus from people so far is you get a bit more time per asset which is good and alot of procedural or mirrored assets so to maximise texture resolution and production time. But there's also massive emphasis on shaders and it looks like VFX artists are going to be huge soon. I honestly can't believe some of the stuff being run in real time, the particle/fluid systems is blowing my mind.
I do worry for the freelance industry as some of this stuff is going to need to be made in house and we might soon see cloth sim and 3d scanning taking over as there's not alot of artists out there who can reach the same level.
I'm also wondering who can afford to make these games? Seriously how expensive is it going to be? Production time and value are going to be alot grander surely. I wonder if this will push many devs out of the market or alternatively we shall see alot more stylised games to combat the production costs. Atleast this should keep the freelance industry going. I noticed they said about self publishing aswell which could be really interesting and should cut costs and open up the indie market possibly. I really hope we don't see publishers becoming even more scared of trying something new and we end up with generic titles everywhere.
The whole connectivity side I do question alot. Seems great for those with 80mb connections but even most of them have download limits. They may use a cloud like system but you still have to download that surely to your system from the source. I can see it maybe coming to the future but maybe not day one.
Overall I was thoroughly impressed. Was nice to feel excited again haha, like when I was 12 haha. Lots of unnecessary padding throughout but overall I really liked it. My iPhone can suggest games for me so that didn't need a 10 minute blah blah blah talk.
Also, Diablo 3 surely isn't blizzards next gen mmo? I will be fairly disappointed if so
I thought everything looked stunning, ue4 will surely be fixed soon, killzone was probably my favourite of the night but I will say nothing blew me away. I see a few issues in the hd screens popping up and I am still not a fan of the generic characters in watch dogs so far. Just a personal preference. But the sheer amount of assets and dynamics was fantastic to see on almost all titles.
I wonder how much was wishful thinking and how much is actually set in stone for the system. They kept it vague enough to put Microsoft in a bit if worry I think and be non committal in many aspects.
Apologies for wall of text
Yeah I've wondered about the production costs too. It seems like our pipeline is far behind what engines can do in terms of asset turn around. I mean a lot of places are still painting textures in 2D. Things like dDo are a huge help but still there is a lot more to deal with then ever before. Also we're still laying out uvs for assets. This is 2013... where is my pTex in games?
But I feel with all the extra legroom we can get with the new generation, we won't be dealing with uber optimization like we have before. Do you know how much time we spend on Lightmaps with UE3? It's absurd.
Did anybody else watch this and get really excited but then rocked/cried themselves to sleep? Everything looked great but I just kept thinking from a production standpoint just how much work is going to be needed.
Yea this did come to mind seeing some of what was being shown. The quality level is going to become so high that by the end of the generation there will probably be near 1:1 parity between game and movie assets. I fear that the barrier to entry, and even maintain a position in the industry, is going to become very high.
But I feel with all the extra legroom we can get with the new generation, we won't be dealing with uber optimization like we have before. Do you know how much time we spend on Lightmaps with UE3? It's absurd.
I always keep on saying this.
For example, wouldn't be having the ability to have support loops on a mesh at no major cost solve 99% of the issues for hard surfaces? Less time spent from the artist baking 2 normal maps and combining the two, or using 2D Normal Map generating software?
Not having to worry about putting up occluders everywhere, kinda like in BF3?
Having much bumpier polygons for stuff like Skin, so if you're using a Normal Blended shader, the effect is less janky and much easier to see?
Baking Lightmaps at any decent rate, even on a multi-network system is insane, especially if you're aiming at a high enough resolution, not to mention, the crappy lossy compression we have to work around.
The only real reason uptil now production costs are high is because the game industry suffered from what is essentially an "Industry Singularity", meaning we jumped leaps and bounds to get where we are, but at the same time, our 'tools' didn't reach to the level we need them to be, so alot of the stuff most of the time seems like magic (or so I assume, since we still can't use Normal map properly).
-We're spending 3K on average for a single new license of 3DS Max 2013, which doesn't work half of the time.
-We don't have any decent 3D painting software, Mari uses some weird channel system, Mudbox has issues if the file is of a certain type and not Normalized, Bodypaint came to standstill, etc.
-Artists still only have good enough tools to produce Specular maps, but not Gloss maps interactively.
-Engines and working tools 3/4 are not synchronized, be it graphically baking, mesh information, etc.
-Non unified shader coding.
-Etc.
Honestly, the only reason costs will get worse in the future (and they might, but conspiring extra leg-room is only a good thing) will be because companies like Autodesk keep on pissing the pipeline (no proper weighted chamfer tools for support looping?), and Adobe claiming that "you don't need a Node based workplace, since it's pointless" (seriously, they literally told their customers they know better).
I mean c'mon, as Artquest said, for half of the stuff we're creating, we're still dealing with blind 2D canvas on full 3D, which is ridiculous. While I don't agree we can use Ptex, since even Pixar uses it sparingly (the resource need is crazy), not having a proper PS like tools for both artist and technical alike for a simple 3d mesh in 2013 is just a joke at this point.
If people want to save money, they either better start learning how to work real fast or they can ask for better tools in the industry.
I mean think about it, be it you are a programmer or a modeler, you still have the word artist in your rank, lets get some tools that fit that rank shall we?
I really liked it haha, but was it realtime or pre rendered?
I think its pretty crazy that we cant tell the difference or be 100% certain on this anymore. What an achievement although I remember pooping myself when N64 came out haha. I cant wait to see where next gen goes now
@crazyfool Apparently that was all in engine Infamous stuff done in house. I thought that was really slick looking.
Sad I won't be able to bring my PSN games or PS3 games over to PS4. Guess that stuff only matters in the early days of the console. I don't play PS2 games on the PS3 at this point. I just sorta assumed the PSN stuff would transfer over.
Otherwise having Mark Cerny and Dave Perry kicking things off seemed like a great message to developers. "We've got actual developers assisting in the system development."
Hopefully the price point isn't horrible and they have a better launch window that the WiiU. Be nice to see people buy more systems, in turning buying more games, in turn more companies opening, hiring, developing, than laying off and shutting shop.
Otherwise having Mark Cerny and Dave Perry kicking things off seemed like a great message to developers. "We've got actual developers assisting in the system development."
I can't comment on Cerny, but I don't think David Perry hasn't achieved anything notable in over 15 years (since MDK).
I do think Sony got their ass back into place. It was significant that we didn't see the japanese guys / Kaz, that the brains behind the PS4 are western, that they recognized they needed easier hardware to develop for and not some weird solution like Cell, etc.
The 8GB thing seemed to be a very last minute addition, similar to how MS increased the 360's RAM to 512MB.
The industry has been going in this direction for awhile. The line between game artists and cg artists is ever decreasing. VFX and 3D people used to work on movies will "steal" some positions in gaming, and vice versa.
Budgets will increase, but I don't think it will be the same jump we saw from SD to HD. Partly because this time the improvements are incremental, not insane, and partly because the extra power will enable developers and artists to actually save some time and not have to do a billion different tricks to make something - the most notable example being the pain the ass lightmaps. Not to mention the fact that many studios were already generating higher quality assets than what the games ended up using.
I really hope, however, that we can see some better tools in the pipelines. Too much disconnect between different packages is hurting workflows all the time. I'll be trying out Handplane for this very reason, for example.
All I am saying is trotting up 2 game devs that are names in the industry is much more impressive to me than some random VP of blah blah. This makes me as a developer feel like the console is made by developers for developers. That was probably partly their intention I imagine.
Again I'm just excited that next gen is finally coming out.
For example, wouldn't be having the ability to have support loops on a mesh at no major cost solve 99% of the issues for hard surfaces? Less time spent from the artist baking 2 normal maps and combining the two, or using 2D Normal Map generating software?
Not having to worry about putting up occluders everywhere, kinda like in BF3?
Having much bumpier polygons for stuff like Skin, so if you're using a Normal Blended shader, the effect is less janky and much easier to see?
Baking Lightmaps at any decent rate, even on a multi-network system is insane, especially if you're aiming at a high enough resolution, not to mention, the crappy lossy compression we have to work around.
The only real reason uptil now production costs are high is because the game industry suffered from what is essentially an "Industry Singularity", meaning we jumped leaps and bounds to get where we are, but at the same time, our 'tools' didn't reach to the level we need them to be, so alot of the stuff most of the time seems like magic (or so I assume, since we still can't use Normal map properly).
-We're spending 3K on average for a single new license of 3DS Max 2013, which doesn't work half of the time.
-We don't have any decent 3D painting software, Mari uses some weird channel system, Mudbox has issues if the file is of a certain type and not Normalized, Bodypaint came to standstill, etc.
-Artists still only have good enough tools to produce Specular maps, but not Gloss maps interactively.
-Engines and working tools 3/4 are not synchronized, be it graphically baking, mesh information, etc.
-Non unified shader coding.
-Etc.
Honestly, the only reason costs will get worse in the future (and they might, but conspiring extra leg-room is only a good thing) will be because companies like Autodesk keep on pissing the pipeline (no proper weighted chamfer tools for support looping?), and Adobe claiming that "you don't need a Node based workplace, since it's pointless" (seriously, they literally told their customers they know better).
I mean c'mon, as Artquest said, for half of the stuff we're creating, we're still dealing with blind 2D canvas on full 3D, which is ridiculous. While I don't agree we can use Ptex, since even Pixar uses it sparingly (the resource need is crazy), not having a proper PS like tools for both artist and technical alike for a simple 3d mesh in 2013 is just a joke at this point.
If people want to save money, they either better start learning how to work real fast or they can ask for better tools in the industry.
I mean think about it, be it you are a programmer or a modeler, you still have the word artist in your rank, lets get some tools that fit that rank shall we?
Well said. Couldn't have said it better myself.
I realize ptex in games is still a ways off. I was trying to make a point though. I realize the task is non trivial but I'm sure someone outta be able come up with a really nice uv layout software that does at least 70% of the work automatically? I know it can be done. It's just that no one has put resources toward fixing this part of the pipeline(I'm looking at you autodesk). It's extremely antiquated to have to do it by hand and can be rather time consuming.
The cool thing about the conference is they havent even shown some of the more awesome stuff yet. I am glad they are saving some really cool stuff for e3. I think as far as both consoles are conserned this will be a very interesting e3.
As far as stuff thats been announced and I can talk about, I am really interested in the self publishing aspect of the ps4 . As someone who has been working on a game in my spare time this is pretty cool, I would also like to see how the content might be filtered. Steam does a pretry good job at this, and I am hoping its not as much of a nightmare experience as trying to find decent content on the app store or on android. Really excited to see what microsoft has in store for their reveal. I havent been a console gamer in a long time, I have none of the current ones, but if they start taking a more open approach to content I might just buy a tv so I can get a console.
So what exactly do you guys think the PS4 be capable of? Surely you guys should know. Full scene tesselation?, 4k textures?, normal maps(or maybe you dont even need the normal maps on some objects)?, ambient occlusion?, msaa, snazzy shaders, and particle effects galore?
So what exactly do you guys think the PS4 be capable of? Surely you guys should know. Full scene tesselation?, 4k textures?, normal maps(or maybe you dont even need the normal maps on some objects)?, ambient occlusion?, msaa, snazzy shaders, and particle effects galore?
Honestly impossible to say. Lets see what the programming wizards over at guerilla/crytek cookes up.
I mean personally i think wild speculation and claims are super amuzing to read.
So here comes my UN-informed oppinions.
From what i have understood about the PS3 hardware is that the memory pool is shared via the system ram and the graphics memory, its like one combined pool. And since Sony this time around has an very open API the developers can use the hardware in whatever way they please.
That means that people would be able to fully utilize say 6gb of system ram for stuff like textures and general video memory beeswax while leaving 2gb for example to handle other stuff.
I would love for someone to correct me on this one beacuse it sounds very flexible to me. And we should assume that since we have so much video memory that would allow a whole lot larger textures.
I for one am a PC gamer, and play only competative games, but i do own a PS3 and i tend to play moore casual games on it, stuff like horror games and such, that 30fps wouldnt bother me a bit if it where on the console.
I would love to hear a little bit moore educated oppinion on the whole shared memory thing.
I think the ps3 has split reserved memory so only 256mb is available for graphics.
I was just thinking you could extrapolate from current constraints. Textures are going to be high, doesnt look there will be strict limits to that. How much geometry and particle effects will be interesting.
The amount of memory and the gpu compute funtions are going to make it harder to do pc ports because they are going to use all that memory and funcionality on the PS4.
The amount of memory and the gpu compute funtions are going to make it harder to do pc ports because they are going to use all that memory and funcionality on the PS4.
Doubtful. They're hardly going to forget that they have other platforms to launch on while developing the PS4 versions.
The trailer is absolutely running in engine. We did some stuff with camera positioning, keyed DOF etc, but the visuals are nothing we aren't seeing in game everyday.
[QUOTE=crazyfool;1781951]I really liked it haha, but was it realtime or pre rendered?
I think its pretty crazy that we cant tell the difference or be 100% certain on this anymore. What an achievement although I remember pooping myself when N64 came out haha. I cant wait to see where next gen goes now[/QUOTE]
Doubtful. They're hardly going to forget that they have other platforms to launch on while developing the PS4 versions.
Your right but it might make the minimum specs for pc higher. PC gamers might get angry that their game doesnt look as good as on the console.
Their loads of people writing off the playstation just because it supposedly has a medium spec graphics card. But they dont get that the consoles have held up pc development, for a while. I'm betting even Crysis 3 still has elements on the pc that have been lowered to the console standard. The consoles will use all of that power in a way the pc cannot. The graphics for a good while are going to exceed what current pcs are able to do at decent framerates.
I agree that our tools seem to be developing very slowly and there's not much resource going into speeding up workflows. Adobe and Autodesk don't seem too interested in pushing forward technology in helping us to make game art. They are at least very slow. Do they think our industry is small fish?
Great tools like X-Normal and Ndo are developed by tiny companies!
I would love to see developers that create great game engines get into developing better software for games artists.
The trailer is absolutely running in engine. We did some stuff with camera positioning, keyed DOF etc, but the visuals are nothing we aren't seeing in game everyday.
Thats awesome well it looked pre rendered which I meant 150% as a compliment. You guys are rocking it!!!
Replies
However sony says ps4 console WILL play used games
http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/02/21/sony-exec-playstation-4-doesnt-block-used-games
balls in Microsoft court now
Instead of cooking the PS4 up in an isolated lab in Tokyo, Sony assembled a crack team of highly experienced game developers to take the lead on the design of the system's architecture. A much greater focus on designing the console around modern development needs is an excellent choice, and one which I wasn't expecting from Sony. It sounds like the PS4 will be an easier platform for developers to work with.
-_-
Thanks to Nintendo launching the Wii U at $350, the base console price will allow for a little more wiggle room. But $600 is still too much. The PS4 needs to come in around the $400 - $500 range. Ideally they would have a premium model that wouldn't break $500, and lower tiered models that would be between $350 - $450.
Any new console is going to have a hard time with pricing in the current market. The existing consoles are just much more affordable and established alternatives. Most consumers aren't going to see the need to pick up the newer systems. Adoption rates will likely be lower than previous generations for both the PS4 and whatever Durango ends up being. We're already seeing this with the Wii U, the effect will be even more pronounced for Sony and Microsoft's offerings. This is the danger of prolonging a console cycle as long as this, and the diminishing returns of chasing graphical power.
It's a matter of adjusting perceptions and expectations. And its also a matter of direct competition with the previous generation of hardware. The biggest competitor for the PS4 won't be the Durango. It's going to be the 360 and the PS3. (and to a lesser degree, the Wii U)
I typically say that too, but I would prefer to be able to continue playing recent PS3 titles, so that I don't need both systems tied to my TV. I have the early PS3 version, so it's a bulky device, and doesn't stack well. If the PS4 is another rounded up/weird shape, I'll have problems keeping them together.
I really wish they had a system, where you could tie your game purchase/license to your account. But, you could deactivate the license, to sell the game. Then, when new systems come out, they could offer the game as a download, if you still own the license. Typically, it's not backwards compatible with the disc, but they tend to offer the game in their store (which is compatible).
Figured as much. Will be interesting to see if this means physical media too.
Jokes aside I think it was a pretty horrible presentation. Lots of corporate buzzwords were being thrown around only to be followed by powerpoint slides with more buzzwords. Proof is in the pudding, show by doing not saying.
If simplicity, accessability, innovation and ingenuity is what it's all about then show us how that actually translates into something tangible. Show us the box, how to navigate it, how to access your content and start a game and talk with your mates.
Less talking, more showing.
if cloud gaming is anything like the streaming on that presentation feed then for that reason Im out haha
Probably not. Both of these companies have been working on these consoles long enough that it is probably too late to make any significant changes. Superficial tweaks are the best you are going to get at this juncture.
I don't think they held anything back to see how Microsoft reacts. I think they just want to save a few things to liven up their E3 presentation. The purpose of this presentation was to reassure investors and cater to developers. They can easily save the rest of the pertinent details for the media circus that is E3.
Also the PS4 controller looks like a car interior, a sexy car interior.
yup, it will be like Wii where you occasionally get surprised by it
Everything looked great but I just kept thinking from a production standpoint just how much work is going to be needed. The general consensus from people so far is you get a bit more time per asset which is good and alot of procedural or mirrored assets so to maximise texture resolution and production time. But there's also massive emphasis on shaders and it looks like VFX artists are going to be huge soon. I honestly can't believe some of the stuff being run in real time, the particle/fluid systems is blowing my mind.
I do worry for the freelance industry as some of this stuff is going to need to be made in house and we might soon see cloth sim and 3d scanning taking over as there's not alot of artists out there who can reach the same level.
I'm also wondering who can afford to make these games? Seriously how expensive is it going to be? Production time and value are going to be alot grander surely. I wonder if this will push many devs out of the market or alternatively we shall see alot more stylised games to combat the production costs. Atleast this should keep the freelance industry going. I noticed they said about self publishing aswell which could be really interesting and should cut costs and open up the indie market possibly. I really hope we don't see publishers becoming even more scared of trying something new and we end up with generic titles everywhere.
The whole connectivity side I do question alot. Seems great for those with 80mb connections but even most of them have download limits. They may use a cloud like system but you still have to download that surely to your system from the source. I can see it maybe coming to the future but maybe not day one.
Overall I was thoroughly impressed. Was nice to feel excited again haha, like when I was 12 haha. Lots of unnecessary padding throughout but overall I really liked it. My iPhone can suggest games for me so that didn't need a 10 minute blah blah blah talk.
Also, Diablo 3 surely isn't blizzards next gen mmo? I will be fairly disappointed if so
I thought everything looked stunning, ue4 will surely be fixed soon, killzone was probably my favourite of the night but I will say nothing blew me away. I see a few issues in the hd screens popping up and I am still not a fan of the generic characters in watch dogs so far. Just a personal preference. But the sheer amount of assets and dynamics was fantastic to see on almost all titles.
I wonder how much was wishful thinking and how much is actually set in stone for the system. They kept it vague enough to put Microsoft in a bit if worry I think and be non committal in many aspects.
Apologies for wall of text
Yeah I've wondered about the production costs too. It seems like our pipeline is far behind what engines can do in terms of asset turn around. I mean a lot of places are still painting textures in 2D. Things like dDo are a huge help but still there is a lot more to deal with then ever before. Also we're still laying out uvs for assets. This is 2013... where is my pTex in games?
Yea this did come to mind seeing some of what was being shown. The quality level is going to become so high that by the end of the generation there will probably be near 1:1 parity between game and movie assets. I fear that the barrier to entry, and even maintain a position in the industry, is going to become very high.
Then there's also the issue of expanding budgets...
I always keep on saying this.
For example, wouldn't be having the ability to have support loops on a mesh at no major cost solve 99% of the issues for hard surfaces? Less time spent from the artist baking 2 normal maps and combining the two, or using 2D Normal Map generating software?
Not having to worry about putting up occluders everywhere, kinda like in BF3?
Having much bumpier polygons for stuff like Skin, so if you're using a Normal Blended shader, the effect is less janky and much easier to see?
Baking Lightmaps at any decent rate, even on a multi-network system is insane, especially if you're aiming at a high enough resolution, not to mention, the crappy lossy compression we have to work around.
The only real reason uptil now production costs are high is because the game industry suffered from what is essentially an "Industry Singularity", meaning we jumped leaps and bounds to get where we are, but at the same time, our 'tools' didn't reach to the level we need them to be, so alot of the stuff most of the time seems like magic (or so I assume, since we still can't use Normal map properly).
-We're spending 3K on average for a single new license of 3DS Max 2013, which doesn't work half of the time.
-We don't have any decent 3D painting software, Mari uses some weird channel system, Mudbox has issues if the file is of a certain type and not Normalized, Bodypaint came to standstill, etc.
-Artists still only have good enough tools to produce Specular maps, but not Gloss maps interactively.
-Engines and working tools 3/4 are not synchronized, be it graphically baking, mesh information, etc.
-Non unified shader coding.
-Etc.
Honestly, the only reason costs will get worse in the future (and they might, but conspiring extra leg-room is only a good thing) will be because companies like Autodesk keep on pissing the pipeline (no proper weighted chamfer tools for support looping?), and Adobe claiming that "you don't need a Node based workplace, since it's pointless" (seriously, they literally told their customers they know better).
I mean c'mon, as Artquest said, for half of the stuff we're creating, we're still dealing with blind 2D canvas on full 3D, which is ridiculous. While I don't agree we can use Ptex, since even Pixar uses it sparingly (the resource need is crazy), not having a proper PS like tools for both artist and technical alike for a simple 3d mesh in 2013 is just a joke at this point.
If people want to save money, they either better start learning how to work real fast or they can ask for better tools in the industry.
I mean think about it, be it you are a programmer or a modeler, you still have the word artist in your rank, lets get some tools that fit that rank shall we?
I really liked it haha, but was it realtime or pre rendered?
I think its pretty crazy that we cant tell the difference or be 100% certain on this anymore. What an achievement
I'm pretty sure we're already seeing this. Fortnite and Knack spring to mind.
Sad I won't be able to bring my PSN games or PS3 games over to PS4. Guess that stuff only matters in the early days of the console. I don't play PS2 games on the PS3 at this point. I just sorta assumed the PSN stuff would transfer over.
Otherwise having Mark Cerny and Dave Perry kicking things off seemed like a great message to developers. "We've got actual developers assisting in the system development."
Hopefully the price point isn't horrible and they have a better launch window that the WiiU. Be nice to see people buy more systems, in turning buying more games, in turn more companies opening, hiring, developing, than laying off and shutting shop.
I can't comment on Cerny, but I don't think David Perry hasn't achieved anything notable in over 15 years (since MDK).
The 8GB thing seemed to be a very last minute addition, similar to how MS increased the 360's RAM to 512MB.
The industry has been going in this direction for awhile. The line between game artists and cg artists is ever decreasing. VFX and 3D people used to work on movies will "steal" some positions in gaming, and vice versa.
Budgets will increase, but I don't think it will be the same jump we saw from SD to HD. Partly because this time the improvements are incremental, not insane, and partly because the extra power will enable developers and artists to actually save some time and not have to do a billion different tricks to make something - the most notable example being the pain the ass lightmaps. Not to mention the fact that many studios were already generating higher quality assets than what the games ended up using.
I really hope, however, that we can see some better tools in the pipelines. Too much disconnect between different packages is hurting workflows all the time. I'll be trying out Handplane for this very reason, for example.
Dave Perry:
http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,812/
Mark Cerny:
http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,18633/
All I am saying is trotting up 2 game devs that are names in the industry is much more impressive to me than some random VP of blah blah. This makes me as a developer feel like the console is made by developers for developers. That was probably partly their intention I imagine.
Again I'm just excited that next gen is finally coming out.
Well said. Couldn't have said it better myself.
I realize ptex in games is still a ways off. I was trying to make a point though. I realize the task is non trivial but I'm sure someone outta be able come up with a really nice uv layout software that does at least 70% of the work automatically? I know it can be done. It's just that no one has put resources toward fixing this part of the pipeline(I'm looking at you autodesk). It's extremely antiquated to have to do it by hand and can be rather time consuming.
As far as stuff thats been announced and I can talk about, I am really interested in the self publishing aspect of the ps4 . As someone who has been working on a game in my spare time this is pretty cool, I would also like to see how the content might be filtered. Steam does a pretry good job at this, and I am hoping its not as much of a nightmare experience as trying to find decent content on the app store or on android. Really excited to see what microsoft has in store for their reveal. I havent been a console gamer in a long time, I have none of the current ones, but if they start taking a more open approach to content I might just buy a tv so I can get a console.
Sponsored by Microsoft.
Honestly impossible to say. Lets see what the programming wizards over at guerilla/crytek cookes up.
I mean personally i think wild speculation and claims are super amuzing to read.
So here comes my UN-informed oppinions.
From what i have understood about the PS3 hardware is that the memory pool is shared via the system ram and the graphics memory, its like one combined pool. And since Sony this time around has an very open API the developers can use the hardware in whatever way they please.
That means that people would be able to fully utilize say 6gb of system ram for stuff like textures and general video memory beeswax while leaving 2gb for example to handle other stuff.
I would love for someone to correct me on this one beacuse it sounds very flexible to me. And we should assume that since we have so much video memory that would allow a whole lot larger textures.
I for one am a PC gamer, and play only competative games, but i do own a PS3 and i tend to play moore casual games on it, stuff like horror games and such, that 30fps wouldnt bother me a bit if it where on the console.
I would love to hear a little bit moore educated oppinion on the whole shared memory thing.
I was just thinking you could extrapolate from current constraints. Textures are going to be high, doesnt look there will be strict limits to that. How much geometry and particle effects will be interesting.
The amount of memory and the gpu compute funtions are going to make it harder to do pc ports because they are going to use all that memory and funcionality on the PS4.
Doubtful. They're hardly going to forget that they have other platforms to launch on while developing the PS4 versions.
[QUOTE=crazyfool;1781951]I really liked it haha, but was it realtime or pre rendered?
I think its pretty crazy that we cant tell the difference or be 100% certain on this anymore. What an achievement
Your right but it might make the minimum specs for pc higher. PC gamers might get angry that their game doesnt look as good as on the console.
Their loads of people writing off the playstation just because it supposedly has a medium spec graphics card. But they dont get that the consoles have held up pc development, for a while. I'm betting even Crysis 3 still has elements on the pc that have been lowered to the console standard. The consoles will use all of that power in a way the pc cannot. The graphics for a good while are going to exceed what current pcs are able to do at decent framerates.
I agree that our tools seem to be developing very slowly and there's not much resource going into speeding up workflows. Adobe and Autodesk don't seem too interested in pushing forward technology in helping us to make game art. They are at least very slow. Do they think our industry is small fish?
Great tools like X-Normal and Ndo are developed by tiny companies!
I would love to see developers that create great game engines get into developing better software for games artists.
entertainment is about 10% of Autodesk's revenue - Engineering and design still seem to be their biggest market.
Thats awesome