K, I made this whole thing with Ndo2 and Ddo, there is no baking, no actual use of photoshop aside from creating normals and interacting with Ddo, no texture work of any kind, just Ddo.
I started it this morning and I'm going to bed now.
I hope someone likes it. It's a spaceship...Well, the inside of one.
solid tool, this is going to speed up a lot of productions methinks. Also I think theres going to be a SHITONNE of models with basically the base settings with a few tweaks coming out after this is released. Like a flood. I think it will become obvious who uses it almost stock standard, and call the texture done.
Kinda like those old 3dsmax photographic metal textures that used to appear on absolutely everything back in the day.
What will the future of art competitions be for the texture side of things ? I can see entries just using this to create their textures....
pretty much all of this.
the biggest issues i have with this are:
it looks like basic photoshop filters, or filter like overlays, with masking controls based on AO. wrapped up in a (very) nice UI. it's nothing that doesn't already exist, it's just a simplification of that existance.
for the artists who currently already do the non-simple version, this will speed up their workflow. it won't make their art better, other than the fact they have more time to do it.
for those who don't already do the non-simple version, they'll get decent results for a little while, but until they learn how to use it properly they'll never actually get GREAT results.
the other thing is... what happens when someone moves to a studio that for whatever reason, doesn't want to get a license for this? if the artist hasn't learned the fundamentals for good texture work before getting hold of this... they're not going to be at the job very long!
so yeah, while this tool is great for speeding up the workflows of some people, it's just going to create a shitstorm of mediocrity as well.
K, I made this whole thing with Ndo2 and Ddo, there is no baking, no actual use of photoshop aside from creating normals and interacting with Ddo, no texture work of any kind, just Ddo.
I started it this morning and I'm going to bed now.
I hope someone likes it. It's a spaceship...Well, the inside of one.
a perfect example of what people in this thread are talking about. mediocre at best.
so yeah, while this tool is great for speeding up the workflows of some people, it's just going to create a shitstorm of mediocrity as well.
*cough* CrazyBump *cough*
This happens every time a tool like this is released. Regardless, I can see this having a huge return on investment for some studios, as it creates a really good base to work from which saves time. The folks who are using it exclusively, without any tweaks to the default settings or hand-painting afterwords, will be obvious. Seriously, can you count how many times you've seen a diffuse map run through crazybump or nDo and slapped on an object/character and been called "finished"? I can't.
Those people with either have to go back and relearn how to texture after learning some hard lessons, or they won't. /shrug
This happens every time a tool like this is released. Regardless, I can see this having a huge return on investment for some studios, as it creates a really good base to work from which saves time. The folks who are using it exclusively, without any tweaks to the default settings or hand-painting afterwords, will be obvious. Seriously, can you count how many times you've seen a diffuse map run through crazybump or nDo and slapped on an object/character and been called "finished"? I can't.
Those people with either have to go back and relearn how to texture after learning some hard lessons, or they won't. /shrug
agreed, using it for a base at the very least, not that many people are lazy enough to leave it there. in some cases the result may be all that's needed. i cant see it hurting anyone's learning of texturing, the gap created could be learned along the way easily.
QFT, i've never seen a good reason to hate on a tool unless it crashes or is buggy. Having another tool in the belt is always helpful.
Most of my exposure to this has been shoulder surfing other's using it and it looks really neat. I will try it myself soon. My initial thought on it are:
It looks slow at times, like whatever it's doing to apply the effect takes it's time.
The example layers provided are very dark, especially considering the move to try and make brighter textures since a lot of game engines utilize GI these days, and the fact that DXT compression hates dark colors.
Hating on this tool is like hating on Photoshop and saying Paint is the only thing for a real artist
I tried it real quick and it is really cool, great for high speed production. Sure it can be slow but photoshop itself is quite slow sometimes so thats not much to complain about considering the time you save using it.
but for everyone else, i think it will actually discourage real progress.
It might discourage their progress until those artists post their stuff here, and get good constructive criticism from the awesome community that is Polycount. What they do with that feedback is really up to the individual, and having/not having this tool won't alter how hard someone is willing to push themselves.
to clarify, i'm not hating on the tool, like i said it will be a great asset to people who're already great artists.
but for everyone else, i think it will actually discourage real progress.
Just want to point out Lee, (not to disagree but to add) that although this could be the case from an academic or learning point of view, in a production environment, being able to push out a mediocre prop very quickly is phenomonally useful. At the moment plenty of games have to be populated to some extent with rough, mediocre props due to time and budget contraints that don't necessarily reflect on the studios talant. And thats (mostly) without such an in depth tool.
why can't they have good artists using this tool, taking the same amount as they would currently take to make a prop, except now there's more time for polish because this tool has sped up the rest of their workflow.
now all of a sudden the world is populated with exceptional art.
why do we have to settle for a mcdonalds cheeseburger when we can have a sirloin for the same price?
the problem now is, as someone else pointed out earlier in the thread. producers will see this tool and go "cool, now we can cut our production time!", instead of going "cool, now we can devote more time to polish".
I can certainly see this being useful for pulling quickly generated stuff out of the photoshop file. I don't think I could ever just straight up use the file it makes, but it makes some interesting layers.
I especially see this being useful for the scratches, that being said, I would rather learn it myself first before letting a computer do it. Now if only I could find some decent brushes for metal scratches...
the problem now is, as someone else pointed out earlier in the thread. producers will see this tool and go "cool, now we can cut our production time!", instead of going "cool, now we can devote more time to polish".
shorter production time = less cost which in turn means you don't have to sell 1 million+ copies in order to break even. Judging from all the portfolios I've seen, texturing is a lost art anyway :P (I'm not saying bad textures, just portfolios full of untextured assets)
I actually think it would be better for characters too, after going from environments to characters I struggled with all the different materials in one texture. This was after painting wood, stone & metal for so long.
why can't they have good artists using this tool, taking the same amount as they would currently take to make a prop, except now there's more time for polish because this tool has sped up the rest of their workflow.
now all of a sudden the world is populated with exceptional art.
why do we have to settle for a mcdonalds cheeseburger when we can have a sirloin for the same price?
the problem now is, as someone else pointed out earlier in the thread. producers will see this tool and go "cool, now we can cut our production time!", instead of going "cool, now we can devote more time to polish".
I agree that using the extra time to make even better art is the optimal outcome we should all aim for. No question. And I think it is likely that producers in studios using this tool will likely say "now we can cut our production time/costs!" which is not exactly to the artists, or sometimes the games benifit.
But there are even more options here. What about now we can increase the scope of our project? make a bigger world? cut less content? And what if smaller teams could say this! That's worth it. Finally while we may see that dodgy bake or a lazy texture on a bin in sleeping dogs, the majority of players don't.
Actually maybe I'm being misleading by using the word lazy - I don't think Snefer's experiments in minimal asset use could ever be called lazy, but it's that kind of clever shortcutting I think this tool lends itself too.
To be finally clear, I am thinking in terms of large environments, not hero-props, characters, or weapons.
It's really fun to see so many tests popping up! Can't wait to see what you'll create once you start experimenting with full customization, creating your own details and super intricate presets. We'll do our best to supply you with proper video learning material shortly to really get you going. For the very basics, don't miss the dDo feature overview! Keep the feedback flowing folks!
dDo 3.3 is out mainly addressing the previewer mesh issues quite a few of you've been reporting (flipped meshes + not loading issue). Turns out meshes didn't load when they weren't exported with normals. They should now pop up in the previewer, but since there are no normals they're flat shaded for now -- another update on the way taking care of this.
For those of you asking about what dDo is meant for specifically: it's really meant for any kind of texturing (enviros, props, vehicles, characters, weapons, organics) -- we'll make sure to provide more sample art and hands-on tuts to demonstrate the uses As for hard-surface samples, here's a few pieces from the website:
Although more stock presets and details will come for you to toy with in upcoming releases, dDo is essentially a framework craving to be pushed and extended by you, the creative people playing with it. Don't be surprised if some of your own custom details or presets end up in future versions! I'd personally love for that to happen
Lazy gameart is already here and has been for ages, so maybe this will make the lazy stuff look better
This is one of my all time favourites, and while it wouldn't be fixed by ddo maybe the time saved from using it would allow someone to spend 30 seconds fixing things like this.
Ok. Sorry lads for disturbing you interesting discussion about and semi-procedural tool will destroy everything, but I have a question.
Can I use base photo texture, for general detail overlay ? Or I have to do it old fashion way, and slap photo after/above what dDO generated ? I found it pretty interesting for making a base for rocks (!), doesn't look as good as when I done it by hand (that's probably lack of good presets, most of them look like for more hard-surface stuff), but it still nice and much faster than painting everything over and over again.
And can we do our own presets or it;s not available yet ?
Lazy gameart is already here and has been for ages, so maybe this will make the lazy stuff look better
This is one of my all time favourites, and while it wouldn't be fixed by ddo maybe the time saved from using it would allow someone to spend 30 seconds fixing things like this.
Definitely worth testing - sort of linear version of Substance Designer
Run into problems with first test:
1. Tried to apply maps on cube exported from 3ds Max (properly UV'd), tested with all different Guruware (gw::OBJ-Exporter) OBJ settings + with or without material or smoothing groups on the mesh.
2. Neither load or preview window load won't load custom mesh (previously mentioned cube). It only shows default rounded cube.
3. Got message box about 3.3 update - it tried to download some RAR file on desktop, then gave an error about faulty file or unfinished file? Tried three times with same result, gave up and downloaded the full version again and installed it.
4. Tested exporting OBJ file from Silo, won't work either.
Windows 7 Professional + PS CS6 64bit. Tested both x86 and 64bit dDo executables with the same result.
EDIT:
Maybe it's some sort of communication issue? Seems like there are quite many modules working together... Just guessing, it looks like there is Unity engine doing stuff for viewport? Tried clicking 3Do.exe in programdata folder and it showed cube with sharp edges, like the one I made - maybe there is other reason for that, but thought to mention it, if it's any help.
^ Same with the preview, it doesn't load and I tried different apps to export. Can someone upload a mesh that worked on here(+ normal map) to try so we can rule out the mesh thing. I think the problem lies somewhere else.
i'm pretty sure exporting normals in obj is on by default in max so asking people if they're doing it wrong is redundant. Atleast it looks to be default for me.
co-worker managed to export out of modo and it worked fine, so I'm going say its something with max's obj export
In the Materials tab, in color mode. I have a very tough, to near impossible time trying to select a color section and have it actually select the correct selection. 95% of the time it only changes the background and the other 5% it selects some other selection set.
I can confirm that by exporting from modo the mesh will show up in the viewer after closing it and opening it again. So it must be some kind of problem with how the viewer reads the info from the obj that was exported from max or the other way around like oobersli said.
Is there a place in one of the config directories to define which photoshop path it tries to use on launching. Seems to default to CS2 and crashes with a Error 48, but I want it to launch CS5 instead
Is there a place in one of the config directories to define which photoshop path it tries to use on launching. Seems to default to CS2 and crashes with a Error 48, but I want it to launch CS5 instead
It asked me which Photoshop instance I wanted to use when I first installed it (had to navigate to the Photoshop.exe I wanted it to reference). Maybe try reinstalling and see if you get the option?
It asked me which Photoshop instance I wanted to use when I first installed it (had to navigate to the Photoshop.exe I wanted it to reference). Maybe try reinstalling and see if you get the option?
All it asks me to do is choose whether I want x86 or x64 installed. Doesnt ask about which PS.
This is just going to make people LAZY. Next you'll see artists using pre-made shapes to help them model. Or having a set of common meshes to quickly place around the scene. OR, using pre-made base meshes for sculpting. Lazy.
Thanks everyone for the reports! There was an update earlier today addressing some of the mesh import issues -- if you missed it, grab it here. Definitely seems to be an issue with dDo being bad at handling deviations in the OBJ format. Send your meshes to team@quixel.se -- this will make it super easy to diagnose and fix what's acting up.
Progg: Good find, and sorry about the hassle. CS2 is indeed not supported, and since this apparently was the PS version active in the registry dDo failed to boot. I'll make sure to get that sorted. I think it would also have been possible to run the PS version of your choice as admin once (instead of uninstalling CS2), as this would make it the active version in the registry, making dDo connect properly.
Jet_Pilot & Stromberg90: Thanks for letting me know! Send over the color maps producing this issue and I'll find out what's wrong ASAP.
sltrOlsson & Kosai106: We've got something early in the works for a sharing portal!
Replies
I played around with this for a few hours yesterday and got some good results.
I really like the model viewer you guys integrated. I kinda want this for ndo2 now
I'm also interested in knowing if you may support fbx at some point?
I started it this morning and I'm going to bed now.
I hope someone likes it. It's a spaceship...Well, the inside of one.
pretty much all of this.
the biggest issues i have with this are:
it looks like basic photoshop filters, or filter like overlays, with masking controls based on AO. wrapped up in a (very) nice UI. it's nothing that doesn't already exist, it's just a simplification of that existance.
for the artists who currently already do the non-simple version, this will speed up their workflow. it won't make their art better, other than the fact they have more time to do it.
for those who don't already do the non-simple version, they'll get decent results for a little while, but until they learn how to use it properly they'll never actually get GREAT results.
the other thing is... what happens when someone moves to a studio that for whatever reason, doesn't want to get a license for this? if the artist hasn't learned the fundamentals for good texture work before getting hold of this... they're not going to be at the job very long!
so yeah, while this tool is great for speeding up the workflows of some people, it's just going to create a shitstorm of mediocrity as well.
a perfect example of what people in this thread are talking about. mediocre at best.
*cough* CrazyBump *cough*
This happens every time a tool like this is released. Regardless, I can see this having a huge return on investment for some studios, as it creates a really good base to work from which saves time. The folks who are using it exclusively, without any tweaks to the default settings or hand-painting afterwords, will be obvious. Seriously, can you count how many times you've seen a diffuse map run through crazybump or nDo and slapped on an object/character and been called "finished"? I can't.
Those people with either have to go back and relearn how to texture after learning some hard lessons, or they won't. /shrug
agreed, using it for a base at the very least, not that many people are lazy enough to leave it there. in some cases the result may be all that's needed. i cant see it hurting anyone's learning of texturing, the gap created could be learned along the way easily.
that's just uncalled for, it's actually not bad for a days work.
In any case, I haven't tried this tool yet because im too lazy. but i look forward to. great job!
I have one question! Can you add your own tiled grime/leak/scratch/whatever texture to the presets?
Fingers are itching to try this on when I come home! 2 hours left, dom dom dom dom!
QFT, i've never seen a good reason to hate on a tool unless it crashes or is buggy. Having another tool in the belt is always helpful.
Most of my exposure to this has been shoulder surfing other's using it and it looks really neat. I will try it myself soon. My initial thought on it are:
It looks slow at times, like whatever it's doing to apply the effect takes it's time.
The example layers provided are very dark, especially considering the move to try and make brighter textures since a lot of game engines utilize GI these days, and the fact that DXT compression hates dark colors.
but how is the shitstorm of mediocrity a bad thing for us artist who are competitive
i welcome it very much.
I tried it real quick and it is really cool, great for high speed production. Sure it can be slow but photoshop itself is quite slow sometimes so thats not much to complain about considering the time you save using it.
Great work Quixel team!
haha absolutely.
to clarify, i'm not hating on the tool, like i said it will be a great asset to people who're already great artists.
but for everyone else, i think it will actually discourage real progress.
It might discourage their progress until those artists post their stuff here, and get good constructive criticism from the awesome community that is Polycount.
Liking it so far and pretty sure I will buy it.
Fast test to create a base texture for an asset (flying shit speck if you want).
Just want to point out Lee, (not to disagree but to add) that although this could be the case from an academic or learning point of view, in a production environment, being able to push out a mediocre prop very quickly is phenomonally useful. At the moment plenty of games have to be populated to some extent with rough, mediocre props due to time and budget contraints that don't necessarily reflect on the studios talant. And thats (mostly) without such an in depth tool.
Hey, lazy gameart has its place! :poly142:
why can't they have good artists using this tool, taking the same amount as they would currently take to make a prop, except now there's more time for polish because this tool has sped up the rest of their workflow.
now all of a sudden the world is populated with exceptional art.
why do we have to settle for a mcdonalds cheeseburger when we can have a sirloin for the same price?
the problem now is, as someone else pointed out earlier in the thread. producers will see this tool and go "cool, now we can cut our production time!", instead of going "cool, now we can devote more time to polish".
I especially see this being useful for the scratches, that being said, I would rather learn it myself first before letting a computer do it. Now if only I could find some decent brushes for metal scratches...
Cool program none the less though.
shorter production time = less cost which in turn means you don't have to sell 1 million+ copies in order to break even. Judging from all the portfolios I've seen, texturing is a lost art anyway :P (I'm not saying bad textures, just portfolios full of untextured assets)
I actually think it would be better for characters too, after going from environments to characters I struggled with all the different materials in one texture. This was after painting wood, stone & metal for so long.
I agree that using the extra time to make even better art is the optimal outcome we should all aim for. No question. And I think it is likely that producers in studios using this tool will likely say "now we can cut our production time/costs!" which is not exactly to the artists, or sometimes the games benifit.
But there are even more options here. What about now we can increase the scope of our project? make a bigger world? cut less content? And what if smaller teams could say this! That's worth it. Finally while we may see that dodgy bake or a lazy texture on a bin in sleeping dogs, the majority of players don't.
Actually maybe I'm being misleading by using the word lazy - I don't think Snefer's experiments in minimal asset use could ever be called lazy, but it's that kind of clever shortcutting I think this tool lends itself too.
To be finally clear, I am thinking in terms of large environments, not hero-props, characters, or weapons.
dDo 3.3 is out mainly addressing the previewer mesh issues quite a few of you've been reporting (flipped meshes + not loading issue). Turns out meshes didn't load when they weren't exported with normals. They should now pop up in the previewer, but since there are no normals they're flat shaded for now -- another update on the way taking care of this.
For those of you asking about what dDo is meant for specifically: it's really meant for any kind of texturing (enviros, props, vehicles, characters, weapons, organics) -- we'll make sure to provide more sample art and hands-on tuts to demonstrate the uses
Although more stock presets and details will come for you to toy with in upcoming releases, dDo is essentially a framework craving to be pushed and extended by you, the creative people playing with it. Don't be surprised if some of your own custom details or presets end up in future versions! I'd personally love for that to happen
This is one of my all time favourites, and while it wouldn't be fixed by ddo maybe the time saved from using it would allow someone to spend 30 seconds fixing things like this.
Can I use base photo texture, for general detail overlay ? Or I have to do it old fashion way, and slap photo after/above what dDO generated ? I found it pretty interesting for making a base for rocks (!), doesn't look as good as when I done it by hand (that's probably lack of good presets, most of them look like for more hard-surface stuff), but it still nice and much faster than painting everything over and over again.
And can we do our own presets or it;s not available yet ?
I too have wanted something like this for a while.
Seams like a lazy mistake indeed, haw haw
Run into problems with first test:
1. Tried to apply maps on cube exported from 3ds Max (properly UV'd), tested with all different Guruware (gw::OBJ-Exporter) OBJ settings + with or without material or smoothing groups on the mesh.
2. Neither load or preview window load won't load custom mesh (previously mentioned cube). It only shows default rounded cube.
3. Got message box about 3.3 update - it tried to download some RAR file on desktop, then gave an error about faulty file or unfinished file? Tried three times with same result, gave up and downloaded the full version again and installed it.
4. Tested exporting OBJ file from Silo, won't work either.
Windows 7 Professional + PS CS6 64bit. Tested both x86 and 64bit dDo executables with the same result.
EDIT:
Maybe it's some sort of communication issue? Seems like there are quite many modules working together... Just guessing, it looks like there is Unity engine doing stuff for viewport? Tried clicking 3Do.exe in programdata folder and it showed cube with sharp edges, like the one I made - maybe there is other reason for that, but thought to mention it, if it's any help.
co-worker managed to export out of modo and it worked fine, so I'm going say its something with max's obj export
Can't select materials from the colors window. Gets stuck on just one of them and won't change.
▼Thats exactly what I did too
3ds max. tried a few configs on export, no change
It asked me which Photoshop instance I wanted to use when I first installed it (had to navigate to the Photoshop.exe I wanted it to reference). Maybe try reinstalling and see if you get the option?
All it asks me to do is choose whether I want x86 or x64 installed. Doesnt ask about which PS.
This looks awesome!
Wont launch at all with CS2 installed. Just uninstalled
Progg: Good find, and sorry about the hassle. CS2 is indeed not supported, and since this apparently was the PS version active in the registry dDo failed to boot. I'll make sure to get that sorted. I think it would also have been possible to run the PS version of your choice as admin once (instead of uninstalling CS2), as this would make it the active version in the registry, making dDo connect properly.
Jet_Pilot & Stromberg90: Thanks for letting me know! Send over the color maps producing this issue and I'll find out what's wrong ASAP.
sltrOlsson & Kosai106: We've got something early in the works for a sharing portal!