funny thing is most poor people I know are the hardest working people I know, dig ditches all day and then work all night as a wal-mart cashier just to feed your family and pay off massive medical debt.
funny thing is most poor people I know are the hardest working people I know, dig ditches all day and then work all night as a wal-mart cashier just to feed your family and pay off massive medical debt.
Don't say things like that Justin, then we middle class folk might have to feel some kind of compassion towards the poor. Much easier to be comfortable in our selfishness when the people who would need your help are lazy turds that don't deserve it. The perpetuation of this viewpoint is one of the worst crimes I believe the media has perpetrated on the middle class.
With Obama who championed the war had failed and we need to pull out (until recently when he switched to "end it responsibly but end it") it puts the pressure on those fledgling governments to step up or fold. We'll see how it goes. It's likely if we pull out too soon he won't have to deal with the ramifications, the next 2-3 presidents would. Which could make for a slick turn around and he could go out on a good note with a semi balanced budget and the wars finished.
Yeah, this sounds like a pretty ideal result. I'm definitely looking forward to seeing how Obama handles the UN, and foreign policy. Not only is he going to need to end the conflict in the Mid-East he also has to repair friendships broken with some of his closest neighbours. I think just his election makes the world much more open to assuming past relationships with America.
As for Cojax, I'm not even going to bother with how close-minded your two lines are. We're a proportionatly smaller country than you, and thus have a small military. To use a tired cliche, we're Peacekeepers not Soldiers.
And why would you assume that these people aren't doing anything to help themselves?
I was making a statement that my hard work will be taxed, and then given to others, I believe in charity and helping out others that are less fortunate. But I personally like to chose who I help with my hard earned money. And if you believe everyone in our country is working hard, then you need to come for a visit.
Will someone please explain how and when the middle class started assuming that if someone was poor it was 100% their own fault, and completely due to laziness/lack of trying?
I will explain it, if you take the time to explain to me why everyone thinks that 100% of the reason people are poor is not there fault.
i heard him say pretty clearly that people under 250k would not get a tax raise. if someone here earns that much I want to know his secret
That was for small buisness, families that earned a combined 100,000 will be taxed.
I know that I am in the minority on this board, but if I knew that 100% of my money would be given to those that are in need, and are working hard but need a helping hand, then I would have no problem. But since it probably will go to some that are bleeding our country dry, using our welfare system and working the government to not work, and take money away from others that are in need. I would have rather kept giving to the charities that I wanted to give to, and put money away for my sons college fund and towards the benifit of my family.
funny thing is most poor people I know are the hardest working people I know, dig ditches all day and then work all night as a wal-mart cashier just to feed your family and pay off massive medical debt.
The more money I make the less actual work I do. Its been the same at every place I've worked at and every job I've done. I work my way up and the requirements change to doing less, they actually expect me to work less not more... At first I thought it was a fluke thing but its held up for 15 years and 3 employers.
I guess poor people just don't want it enough... I know, they all need to wake up and decide to be rich and then it will just happen. I'm glad I finally know the secret to being rich, you just need to want it more. But then there's the whole issue of what are you willing to do, to become rich? But I guess choosing not to screw people over, murder, or just use your fellow human beings as garbage disposals means you're lazy?
I like how we can have individualism when we're riding the gravy train, and socialism when the train derails. A few people make out like bandits during the good years but the second they hit a bump in the road oh shit everyone gotta chip in. Rich people love to spread the debt around but not the wealth...
In the end even if I end up paying more taxes to help dig America out of the hole we've dug for ourselves I'm ok with it. We will dig ourselves out, and we will clean up the huge turd we dropped on our neighbors front lawn. It's not a hard leap of logic to ask everyone including rich people to pay their fair share. Repealing tax breaks to the wealthy and resetting tax brackets isn't that evil. Buck up people someone has to pay, you can attempt to tap the tapped out but it won't make things better...
if I knew that 100% of my money would be given to those that are in need, and are working hard but need a helping hand, then I would have no problem. But since it probably will go to some that are bleeding our country dry, using our welfare system and working the government to not work, and take money away from others that are in need. I would have rather kept giving to the charities that I wanted to give to, and put money away for my sons college fund and towards the benifit of my family.
I have a coworker I've talked a lot about this with, he essentially has the same position as you on it. I agree 100%. However, we have to start somewhere, and we'll never get there if we don't take the initiative. Time will tell if this government is capable of doing it right, I'm choosing to put my money on them making a good start.
Some poor people are pathetic meth heads leeching off the state and wouldn't help themselves if their lives depended on it. But I think there are enough honest, hard working people who have been fucked by medical bills or some other financial trap that it's worth it to go with obama's initiatives, instead of just continuing to rely on private charities. Hitting the problem from multiple angles can only help.
I guess what it comes down to is whether or not you want to believe that Obama's administration is capable of doing it right. I'd like to believe he can do it. I can understand why others are skeptical, though.
I for one do not like the idea of being taxed higher to help those that aren't doing anything to help themselves, as I was brought up to work hard and not ask for handouts.
Working hard does not preclude having a hard time paying the bills.
Eh, I had more I was gonna say, but the more I thought about it the sadder it made me.
not one to usually get into political discussions on here but it seems like people think that taxes going to other people is a new thing, like there's going to be a change in the way our tax systems functions, it's not. It's already like this, the only thing that's changing is percentages. If we want to discuss the idea of a progressive tax system vs something like flat tax that's fine but it's not like Obama is pushing solely for the progressive tax system, it's something we already have and Mccain hasn't pushed for an alternative like a flat tax. He just tried to label Obama's plan as a redistribution of wealth to win votes (Despite the idea of taxes in general being a redistribution of your wealth).
I was making a statement that my hard work will be taxed, and then given to others, I believe in charity and helping out others that are less fortunate. But I personally like to chose who I help with my hard earned money. And if you believe everyone in our country is working hard, then you need to come for a visit.
I don't believe anything of the sort. I was simply responding to your rather careless generalisation.
Durrr... maybe it's just me, but don't most taxes go towards things like infrastructure, military spending, etc...? I mean... that's how it works in Canada atleast. You know, upkeep of parks, roads, community centres, wars, all that stuff needs money to be spent on it and all.
I mean, honestly, if you want to drive a vehical you should be all for taxes. Unless you like off-roading to work in the morning I guess.
I'm pretty sure progressive tax isn't redistribution of wealth, which implies directly taking money from the wealthy and giving it to the poor, but is just taxing more from people who have extra. Hell, the everyone else will still pay taxes, just less. Seems pretty logical to me.
Also, anyone who thinks that people who are "poor" are lazy is a moron. Think about the economics of it. In a capitalist system where there is a certain amount of wealth to go around, for one person to be extremely wealthy there has to be an equivilent amount of people going without to make up for it. Although right now a lot of the people really getting hit by the American wealthy are actually overseas, making our t-shirts and such.
Spark it would be awesome if we could choose where to spend our tax dollars. Right now some of my money is doing some very unsavory things. Things I would never put my money into. Unfortunate we don't get to choose what is done with our taxes as individuals. The way our system works we need to band together and effect change. Right now the majority of Americans think this is the direction we need to go, I'm willing to give it a shot and see where it takes us.
It's hard to think that we're going to get out of this mess by leaving taxes where they are at. Both candidates where going to raise taxes to cover the costs. Neither said they wouldn't, which means it was inevitable. Higher taxes are directly connected to the mess we're in not the candidate that was elected.
While everyone hates to pay higher taxes, someone is going to need to chip in, I don't think that money can come from the poor and lower middle class, when they're having trouble finding jobs and making ends met.
We need to make sure that what happened to get us in this mess never happens again, as well as clean it up. The people in a better position to help clean it up need to not be the lazy ones and hope that someone else will pay for it while they live in their bubble.
Where are you guys getting these tax cut numbers? Only if you're under $100k? Not unless you're running a business? Neither of those is true.
Here's how it is: if you earn less than $200,000, you get a tax cut. If you and your spouse file jointly and earn less than $200,000, you get a tax cut. This isn't my opinion, this is what you get from the tax calculator on Obama's on website. Now it may come pass that taxes aren't cut exactly to those numbers, but that's the stated policy as it was on election day and currently the only basis for discussion.
At any rate, we all know that you don't get rich by pushing polys in the game industry. No one reading this is going to have his taxes raised, nor his wealth 'redistributed.' If I'm wrong and one of you bastards is pulling down more than 200 grand a year, I hate you and please buy me a Ferrari
Are people upset about the taxes being higher? Or that they think that the gov will just be giving more money to poor people?
It seems to me that if Obama follows the trend of most liberal presidents, spending is going to be cut to a fraction of what it's been in the last 8 years. The wasteful military spending that has plauged our country is a far larger concern than Obama's fairly conservative spending plans.
As far as higher taxes, we obviously aren't paying nearly enough as it is. That's why we're in debt. We don't pay enough to finance our government, so our gov just continues to spend whatever it wants on credit. Lower spending and higher taxes is a must.
As for Cojax, I'm not even going to bother with how close-minded your two lines are. We're a proportionatly smaller country than you, and thus have a small military. To use a tired cliche, we're Peacekeepers not Soldiers.
Not to mention all our forces are considered fairly elite units, better training and performance with shiet equipment.
Bottom line is that Canadians are dying over there because we stepped in to help clean up the unfinished clusterfuck mess that the lesser Bush left behind before storming his way back into Iraq.
So Cojax, and anyone else that thinks they can jab at our military, you guys can go find a corner and fuck yourselves. Our guys are doing the best they can over there in a mission that was asked of us by the Afghani government and the international community.
Even though I don't agree with some of the things Obama is planning to do, I think he is still an intelligent and carasmatic person. I will interested in what he will do in washington, and hopefully will not get pulled into the sesspool of our political system. For those that are calling me names, and putting words into my mouth, let me just say that I never said ALL poor people are scum, that I shouldn't PAY my taxes and so forth. Please read my comment as that of I am not looking forward to how my taxes are going to be redistributed and being taxed at a higher rate.
Vig, yah it would be great, as there is alot of waste that can go to a better source for our country, and I do hope that we band together as a nation to move towards a better future. And I am also willing to see what happens, and get behind whatever government is in power to make sure they do a better job leading us.
Spark
P.S: Vermillion, I thought I heard it from Obama, that families making a combined 100,000 and above, would be taxed at a higher rate shortly before the election. If that isn't true, then I apologize for the misinformation.
Where are you guys getting these tax cut numbers? Only if you're under $100k? Not unless you're running a business? Neither of those is true.
Here's how it is: if you earn less than $200,000, you get a tax cut. If you and your spouse file jointly and earn less than $200,000, you get a tax cut. This isn't my opinion, this is what you get from the tax calculator on Obama's on website. Now it may come pass that taxes aren't cut exactly to those numbers, but that's the stated policy as it was on election day and currently the only basis for discussion.
At any rate, we all know that you don't get rich by pushing polys in the game industry. No one reading this is going to have his taxes raised, nor his wealth 'redistributed.' If I'm wrong and one of you bastards is pulling down more than 200 grand a year, I hate you and please buy me a Ferrari
ive had this discussion with several family members (die hard republicans) and they constantly throw the "my hard earned money will be used to fund lazy tricksters that just want to suckle the government tit" argument.
this is most like true to a certain degree.
but i believe firmly that this would happen no matter what political party was in power. the lazy tricksters that want to trick the government into paying their way will always find a way.
i also firmly believe that i would rather try to help the less fortunate in our society and inadvertently pay for a couple of lazy, poor, tricksters then not give a shit about those who aren't as fortunate as me.
to me its always been a funny juxtaposition that the democrats have been demonized for being about big government and higher taxes. government has grown just as much if not more under the republicans, its just not social programs that are growing or being spent on. the republicans grow the military to fucking ridiculous proportions, and tax the shit out of us to do it. the democrats grow social programs and tax the shit out of us to do it.
id rather have my money spent on the bettering of society and have a few tricksters scam money then assume that everyone is a trickster and tell them to fuck off.
id rather have my money spent on social programs then a war.
For those that are calling me names, and putting words into my mouth, let me just say that I never said ALL poor people are scum, that I shouldn't PAY my taxes and so forth.
I don't know about everyone else but I was responding to Ephesians
I know that I am in the minority on this board, but if I knew that 100% of my money would be given to those that are in need, and are working hard but need a helping hand, then I would have no problem. But since it probably will go to some that are bleeding our country dry, using our welfare system and working the government to not work, and take money away from others that are in need.
Spark
Actually, in my time working with at risk children and families I probably only met one person that was abusing the system. The vast majority of people receiving social assistance genuinely need it. The problem is we need more systems in place to help these people free themselves from the welfare system and become self-sufficient. The system tends to perpetuate itself, unfortunately.
to be far obama isnt going to tax people that make more money a higher percentage than people that make less, actually they have always, and even under obamas plan will pay a smaller percentage of their income to taxes... all he proposed to do is take away the insane tax cuts bush let the uber wealthy have while he was in office.
because of my wife's income we make more than 250k a year and i have absolutely no problem paying our fair share, even if they wanted us to pay the same percentage as people that make less i would have no problem with that either.
the average family pays 40% income tax
the rich pay around 22% currently
people that think this is fair and any change to even the playing field is pandering to lazy people need to have their head checked. from my experience the more money you make the less work you do.
ive had this discussion with several family members (die hard republicans) and they constantly throw the "my hard earned money will be used to fund lazy tricksters that just want to suckle the government tit" argument.
So they're talking about the 5 biggest oil companies that get $14.3 billion in subsidies while they reap record breaking profits year after year?
Who's the bigger thief someone scamming food stamps, or companies scamming $14.3 billion when they don't need it?
What can someone get with food stamps... um food.
What can they get with $14.3 billion? The unwavering support of your family members and a presidential candidate? Drill baby drill.
Its time to wake up and understand they've been giving our money away like crazy and if we're going to give it away lets make sure that the majority of it goes to the right people or pays down our debt...
Astro is dead on. We do need welfare reform so its a hand up not a hand out. But it needs to be reformed not slashed and burned as we flounder around trying to get a budget that works. Which is what McCain was eying when he said "cut government spending and eliminate the programs that don't work". Want to get rid of welfare, fine but stop shipping our jobs overseas so we can survive...
Hey man, but the Republicans don't increase your taxes. Instead they pile all that massive new spending into debt, devaluing the dollar and ruining the economy. It's sweet!
Too bad McCain didn't win so that he could cut out pork barrel spending on things like planetariums and genetic research. Who needs science and education anyway?
So Cojax, and anyone else that thinks they can jab at our military, you guys can go find a corner and fuck yourselves. Our guys are doing the best they can over there in a mission that was asked of us by the Afghani government and the international community.
I'm always amazed at the close-mindedness of some people. Growing up in a military family (father army, vietnam vet, extended family all in a branch of the armed services) I was alway taught that the Canadian military was one to respect greatly.
people that think this is fair and any change to even the playing field is pandering to lazy people need to have their head checked. from my experience the more money you make the less work you do.
Wow. Quite a broad subject matter in here for sure.
I can say first hand that our welfare and assistance system is greatly busted. At least in California. When my wife got pregnant I had just gotten out of the military and was in school. We were living off my GI Bill and my Best Buy employment. Now trying to live in San Diego and living on that little income just wasn't cutting it. So we had to get help. However we didn't qualify for much else then medical because we had 2 cars. Mind you 2 older cars that were paid off from when I was in the military and were utter pieces of shit and we couldn't get cash aid or whatever it was called. However you would see people drive up to the same office in brand new escalades ( i shit you not) with huge ass diamond rings on their hands picking up their cash assistance checks and getting accepted into those programs. The reason they had 1 car and were making payments on it. They didn't own it. WHAT THE FUCK!!! So paying on a 40k dollar car is better then someone that owns 1 car worth 2500 and another worth 3500. Go figure.
Now that I have a good job I am thankful for at least the medical aid we were able to get because without that we would have been destroyed by all the medical bills from my wifes pregnancy.
So I am happy with Obama and I hope that change really does come. There are so many things in our country that need to be changed.
We now have a black president and that shows we are growing more mature and trying to put racism behind us on some levels but the next thing that has to end in my opinion is how people treat same sex couples as lower level citizens and can't even grant them the right to be married and in some states can't even foster or adopt a child. Seriously.
I am probably the only (or one of the few) person who is actually the owner of a small business here, and I would gladly pay more taxes if I were asked.
Our current republican government continues to waste money on stupid shit every day and then they promise to lower taxes. It's a bunch of shit. They are a huge reason as to why we have a huge deficit every year and why our economy is getting shit on.
Most people don't understand something important. The reason I had the chance to start my own business is because my country is so fucking awesome. Before these last 8 years of shit, the government actually took care of it's people and because of that we became extremely prosperous. Even if some of my money goes to some lazy mother fucker's college education that he never completes, he will become a more productive member of society due to the government's efforts and it makes our country better as a whole.
Why do you think I can walk to my trash cans without fear of getting robbed? Our government takes care of us with a good Police force. Why do you think I was able to get a loan and start this business? The Small Business Administration section of the government helped me get a loan. Why do you think I can compete in a free market? Why do you think our country is so damn safe from terrorism and shit? BECAUSE WE GIVE THEM FUCKING MONEY TO DO IT!
No honest & successful person would be where they are today if it weren't for our government. If they need money to take care of us and provide all these amazing things that allow us as individuals and a country to be extremely prosperous, then I'll hand it over in an instant.
You can bitch all you want about that "lazy Mexican" who got a college grant through the government, but I guarantee you the more people we have like that around here the better our country will become. That "lazy Negro" who is on welfare because his life is in deep shit right now is now given the potential to go make something of himself instead of turning into another piece of shit gang member who sells drugs and kills people.
Like Obama told "Joe the Plumber," yes, I will be taxing you more once you make more money. But put yourself in your shoes years ago when you didn't have a whole lot of money and you needed a break. If you had a break then, it would help you get to your goals faster.
The more tools we provide to our people as a whole will improve our country as a whole. We can't force them into becoming productive and successful members of society, but giving them more options to move into the realm of success can only make us better in the end.
I am probably the only (or one of the few) person who is actually the owner of a small business here, and I would gladly pay more taxes if I were asked.
Our current republican government continues to waste money on stupid shit every day and then they promise to lower taxes. It's a bunch of shit. They are a huge reason as to why we have a huge deficit every year and why our economy is getting shit on.
Most people don't understand something important. The reason I had the chance to start my own business is because my country is so fucking awesome. Before these last 8 years of shit, the government actually took care of it's people and because of that we became extremely prosperous. Even if some of my money goes to some lazy mother fucker's college education that he never completes, he will become a more productive member of society due to the government's efforts and it makes our country better as a whole.
Why do you think I can walk to my trash cans without fear of getting robbed? Our government takes care of us with a good Police force. Why do you think I was able to get a loan and start this business? The Small Business Administration section of the government helped me get a loan. Why do you think I can compete in a free market? Why do you think our country is so damn safe from terrorism and shit? BECAUSE WE GIVE THEM FUCKING MONEY TO DO IT!
No honest & successful person would be where they are today if it weren't for our government. If they need money to take care of us and provide all these amazing things that allow us as individuals and a country to be extremely prosperous, then I'll hand it over in an instant.
You can bitch all you want about that "lazy Mexican" who got a college grant through the government, but I guarantee you the more people we have like that around here the better our country will become. That "lazy Negro" who is on welfare because his life is in deep shit right now is now given the potential to go make something of himself instead of turning into another piece of shit gang member who sells drugs and kills people.
Like Obama told "Joe the Plumber," yes, I will be taxing you more once you make more money. But put yourself in your shoes years ago when you didn't have a whole lot of money and you needed a break. If you had a break then, it would help you get to your goals faster.
The more tools we provide to our people as a whole will improve our country as a whole. We can't force them into becoming productive and successful members of society, but giving them more options to move into the realm of success can only make us better in the end.
Wow, this is the single most intelligent thing I have ever heard from an American(online and irl) and that is no joke.
A lot of other comments I've read(not anywhere in particular)has made me believe that all Americans are afraid of even a tiny bit of socialistic goodness.
It's like all things I read is that Americans take it for granted that taxes and (liberal) socialism is a bad thing, as if they've been force fed with it from birth(have you? :P)
Yay for Obama. Sadly the country isn't doing him a favor. He'll spend most of his term cleaning up an enormous mess. Many will start blaming him for the problems we're about to face. It's going to be a rough road...but at least it's finally heading in the right direction.
Yeah, this sounds like a pretty ideal result. I'm definitely looking forward to seeing how Obama handles the UN, and foreign policy. Not only is he going to need to end the conflict in the Mid-East he also has to repair friendships broken with some of his closest neighbours. I think just his election makes the world much more open to assuming past relationships with America.
As for Cojax, I'm not even going to bother with how close-minded your two lines are. We're a proportionatly smaller country than you, and thus have a small military. To use a tired cliche, we're Peacekeepers not Soldiers.
It's sarcasm kido. Just calm down. Think before you post.
Well its not every president that starts (and botches) 2 wars, lies to the America people and burns through their cabinet and press secretaries a few times over. Those things are all big news and just because hes the president we shouldn't have talked about it?
Clinton attacked Somolia, Serbia, Afghanistan, Sudan and even Baghdad. All unauthorized attacks with no war declarations. He also committed adultry in a overwhelmingly christian country, bringing shame to himself and our nation, and lying to the American people about it.
No one is perfect. When Bush won in 2000 and 2004 I witnessed no face-rubs like dems were dishing out last night and today. It's disgraceful, pitiful and short sighted. Like a bully in school, laughing at the last picked in dodgeball. It accomplishes nothing, and it's pathetic.
Change will not come quickly like a lot of you think. We won't be out of Iraq until at least 2011. Universal healthcare won't happen in his first term, there's zero money thanks to Bush's war and Clinton's mortgage crisis. A lot of things have to be put on hold while Barrack fixes these things. I have no doubt that he will. It's going to take a long time to bounce back from the last 8 years, and we can only do it together. No point in teasing the losing party.
I voted for Barrack and he won. I'm very proud to have him as my president. But I did not gloat for a moment. There is no reason. Be happy and lets move on.
Oh for sure EQ, but it still doesn't go to say it's not obviously present. I grew up outside of Detroit and now living in GB, and there's always been a floating point of racism around. I know it's a small crowd of people, but I have definitely been subjected to it here in local bars or numerous shops I've been in.
And while I don't know if the actual numbers are true (2:1), Obama's site has this on Civil Rights and from having a more than one experience with a few of my black friends being harassed to all hell I wouldn't doubt it:
Oh for sure man, all i was saying is i dont think it had the impact that a lot of people thought it would(me included), I personally thought he didnt have a chance in hell, just because he was black, but then he beat out clinton in the primarys. But i voted for him, and am happy that there is a decent majority of people in the country that arent insane. SUCK IT VASSSSSSASSSSSSSSSSSGAAY
...He also committed adultry in a overwhelmingly christian country, bringing shame to himself and our nation...
Haha, I kind of doubt any of the rest of the world gave two shits except that the American media/public made such a big thing of it, so I don't know that you could say it brought shame to your nation. Except maybe in your nations own eyes.
Does any other nation's opinion truly matter other than your own?
The world can hate my pres so long as they do a good job. My point about Clinton was that he lied to us just like Bush did. He also did his best to hide the illegal conflicts he started. Zeroing in specifically on the national shame excerpt skewed it off topic a tad and wasn't my intention.
at the end of bush's terms, america's relationship with india was on an especially good note [what with the nuclear deal getting a nod].
i hope obama continues in that light, and indo-american relations improve.
i also hope that america's general relations with the rest of the world improve too. the few past years have given them a bad name afaik.
i also like obama's economic policies, especially the ones which are 'mildly socialist.'
the system has worked for india for the past 61 years of independence, and it might help reduce poverty in the USA as well.
now then:
time to paint the white house black, and install that b-ball court.
oh, and crank that ludacris up to max bitches!
Does any other nation's opinion truly matter other than your own?
The world can hate my pres so long as they do a good job. My point about Clinton was that he lied to us just like Bush did. He also did his best to hide the illegal conflicts he started. Zeroing in specifically on the national shame excerpt skewed it off topic a tad and wasn't my intention.
Sorry vas, but I'd imagine a lot of us feeling that if the rest of the world hates our president he isn't doing a good job, would you not agree?
Sadly(?), I really don't have enough pride in myself or our (any) country to believe that if the rest of the world is barking and we're not listening that there's something extremely wrong with our execution on present matters.
Clinton attacked Somolia, Serbia, Afghanistan, Sudan and even Baghdad. All unauthorized attacks with no war declarations.
You are comparing NATO interventions in areas of genocide to unilateral wars against sovereign powers? I don't think they were all the right thing to do or were done the right way- this argument can go back and forth and is irrelevant to this thread- but none of those near compares to the mishandling of both current wars and the absurdity of going into Iraq in the first place.
The world can hate my pres so long as they do a good job.
What I'd find interesting is how in the hell a president can be doing a good job when the world hates you. Really. I'd love to see the logic that has a president with a 60% American approval rating and a 20% international one. Its funny you'd say Clinton brought 'shame to our nation' in light of the 8 year parade of foreign relations debacles.... yeah, I remember how tremendous the international outrage was towards Clinton compared to, say, Abu Gharib.
My point about Clinton was that he lied to us just like Bush did.
Clinton's lies resulted in his impeachment and censure. Bush's resulted, instead, of thousands of US lives lost and millions of Iraqi's affected. Try telling a mother who has lost a son or daughter that Clinton's lie was 'just like' Bush's.
None of these guys are perfect, they all have their screwups- but please, when you are comparing two things, it should be done on equal and objective grounds. There are plenty of big ways Clinton screwed up, but to suggest he screwed up on anything near the level of Bush is a joke. Even worse, picking out the affair and coverup, and comparing that to Bush's major mistakes, is an insult to history, and an undue compliment to how awesome the rest of Clinton's presidency must have been.
yay clinton bashing. Remember operation infinite reach? Where he had a pharmecutical factory blown up with cruise missles because someone had a hunch they were making nerve gas. Leaving the Sudanese citizens with no medicine. Leading to tens of thousands of civilian deaths? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Infinite_Reach
Honestly, I didn't really care for either candidate but I would have probably preferred Mccain if it wasn't for Palin. To be honest, Obama just seems too idealistic.
Maybe that's what we need, but I don't know.
I'm not even of voting age, so whatever.
"I'm not even of voting age... Obama just seems too idealistic."
That's just sad... the youths are supposed to be all about idealism. Its about the only time in your life where your not broken down too far to be idealistic.
Not all of Clinton's military strikes were NATO sanctioned, Rob. Read up on it more.
My comment about the world hating the pres and I not caring was taken seriously and it was meant as a smart ass joke... Ease up a bit!
My cousin lost her husband in non-sanctioned Delta ops in Afghanistan in 1999. I guess you're only concerned with publicized losses?...
Not all of Clinton's military strikes were NATO sanctioned, Rob. Read up on it more.
I suppose that you equally condemn US strikes into Pakistan, who we aren't at war with? Any major ground forces were there on a NATO or UN mission (unfortunately, 'there' refers to too many countries). The fact that ground forces were in a sovreign country is still not acceptable. But it is not in almost any way comparable to a unilateral US invasion involving a hundred thousand troops.
My cousin lost her husband in non-sanctioned Delta ops in Afghanistan in 1999. I guess you're only concerned with publicized losses?...
I thought I made it clear in the last paragraph. I am not excusing or apologizing many of the mistakes Clinton made- many of them resulting in unnecessary loss of life. What I am pointing out is that it is dishonest and harmful to compare two things on arbitrary ideological grounds while ignoring the scope of them. Saying something like, 'Clinton did unsanctioned Delta ops in Afghanistan and Bush invaded Iraq unilaterally' is ignoring completely what is in fact a very big, very real aspect of foreign policy and the actions of nations. The sad truth is that scope and numbers count, and nations often act to kill a few to save, they think, many. I don't think it is the right thing to do, but you cannot ignore that it is a very important factor when making decisions and taking action.
The only thing that is going to change is that we have an awesome guy as prez. I'd rather know that my tax dollars are going toward health care, building schools, paying teachers more, making sure the poor is treated like humans, and making sure that my kids will be able to be raised in a country were anything is possible! I can sacrifice a few dollars more for these purposes. I know my taxes wont increase because im broke as shit but life will go on and all these arguments will be forgotten in a few months anyway.
love all of you guys! Now get excited for black friday and go buy your new HD tv or game console!
Replies
Wow. Lazyness with a capital "L" and a "y" instead of an "i". That's the worst kind.
Don't say things like that Justin, then we middle class folk might have to feel some kind of compassion towards the poor. Much easier to be comfortable in our selfishness when the people who would need your help are lazy turds that don't deserve it. The perpetuation of this viewpoint is one of the worst crimes I believe the media has perpetrated on the middle class.
Yeah, this sounds like a pretty ideal result. I'm definitely looking forward to seeing how Obama handles the UN, and foreign policy. Not only is he going to need to end the conflict in the Mid-East he also has to repair friendships broken with some of his closest neighbours. I think just his election makes the world much more open to assuming past relationships with America.
As for Cojax, I'm not even going to bother with how close-minded your two lines are. We're a proportionatly smaller country than you, and thus have a small military. To use a tired cliche, we're Peacekeepers not Soldiers.
I know that I am in the minority on this board, but if I knew that 100% of my money would be given to those that are in need, and are working hard but need a helping hand, then I would have no problem. But since it probably will go to some that are bleeding our country dry, using our welfare system and working the government to not work, and take money away from others that are in need. I would have rather kept giving to the charities that I wanted to give to, and put money away for my sons college fund and towards the benifit of my family.
Spark
I guess poor people just don't want it enough... I know, they all need to wake up and decide to be rich and then it will just happen. I'm glad I finally know the secret to being rich, you just need to want it more. But then there's the whole issue of what are you willing to do, to become rich? But I guess choosing not to screw people over, murder, or just use your fellow human beings as garbage disposals means you're lazy?
I like how we can have individualism when we're riding the gravy train, and socialism when the train derails. A few people make out like bandits during the good years but the second they hit a bump in the road oh shit everyone gotta chip in. Rich people love to spread the debt around but not the wealth...
In the end even if I end up paying more taxes to help dig America out of the hole we've dug for ourselves I'm ok with it. We will dig ourselves out, and we will clean up the huge turd we dropped on our neighbors front lawn. It's not a hard leap of logic to ask everyone including rich people to pay their fair share. Repealing tax breaks to the wealthy and resetting tax brackets isn't that evil. Buck up people someone has to pay, you can attempt to tap the tapped out but it won't make things better...
I have a coworker I've talked a lot about this with, he essentially has the same position as you on it. I agree 100%. However, we have to start somewhere, and we'll never get there if we don't take the initiative. Time will tell if this government is capable of doing it right, I'm choosing to put my money on them making a good start.
Some poor people are pathetic meth heads leeching off the state and wouldn't help themselves if their lives depended on it. But I think there are enough honest, hard working people who have been fucked by medical bills or some other financial trap that it's worth it to go with obama's initiatives, instead of just continuing to rely on private charities. Hitting the problem from multiple angles can only help.
I guess what it comes down to is whether or not you want to believe that Obama's administration is capable of doing it right. I'd like to believe he can do it. I can understand why others are skeptical, though.
Working hard does not preclude having a hard time paying the bills.
Eh, I had more I was gonna say, but the more I thought about it the sadder it made me.
You have killed this thread for me.
I don't believe anything of the sort. I was simply responding to your rather careless generalisation.
I mean, honestly, if you want to drive a vehical you should be all for taxes. Unless you like off-roading to work in the morning I guess.
I'm pretty sure progressive tax isn't redistribution of wealth, which implies directly taking money from the wealthy and giving it to the poor, but is just taxing more from people who have extra. Hell, the everyone else will still pay taxes, just less. Seems pretty logical to me.
Also, anyone who thinks that people who are "poor" are lazy is a moron. Think about the economics of it. In a capitalist system where there is a certain amount of wealth to go around, for one person to be extremely wealthy there has to be an equivilent amount of people going without to make up for it. Although right now a lot of the people really getting hit by the American wealthy are actually overseas, making our t-shirts and such.
It's hard to think that we're going to get out of this mess by leaving taxes where they are at. Both candidates where going to raise taxes to cover the costs. Neither said they wouldn't, which means it was inevitable. Higher taxes are directly connected to the mess we're in not the candidate that was elected.
While everyone hates to pay higher taxes, someone is going to need to chip in, I don't think that money can come from the poor and lower middle class, when they're having trouble finding jobs and making ends met.
We need to make sure that what happened to get us in this mess never happens again, as well as clean it up. The people in a better position to help clean it up need to not be the lazy ones and hope that someone else will pay for it while they live in their bubble.
Here's how it is: if you earn less than $200,000, you get a tax cut. If you and your spouse file jointly and earn less than $200,000, you get a tax cut. This isn't my opinion, this is what you get from the tax calculator on Obama's on website. Now it may come pass that taxes aren't cut exactly to those numbers, but that's the stated policy as it was on election day and currently the only basis for discussion.
At any rate, we all know that you don't get rich by pushing polys in the game industry. No one reading this is going to have his taxes raised, nor his wealth 'redistributed.' If I'm wrong and one of you bastards is pulling down more than 200 grand a year, I hate you and please buy me a Ferrari
Here's the official Obama tax calculator: http://taxcut.barackobama.com/
It seems to me that if Obama follows the trend of most liberal presidents, spending is going to be cut to a fraction of what it's been in the last 8 years. The wasteful military spending that has plauged our country is a far larger concern than Obama's fairly conservative spending plans.
As far as higher taxes, we obviously aren't paying nearly enough as it is. That's why we're in debt. We don't pay enough to finance our government, so our gov just continues to spend whatever it wants on credit. Lower spending and higher taxes is a must.
Not to mention all our forces are considered fairly elite units, better training and performance with shiet equipment.
Bottom line is that Canadians are dying over there because we stepped in to help clean up the unfinished clusterfuck mess that the lesser Bush left behind before storming his way back into Iraq.
So Cojax, and anyone else that thinks they can jab at our military, you guys can go find a corner and fuck yourselves. Our guys are doing the best they can over there in a mission that was asked of us by the Afghani government and the international community.
Vig, yah it would be great, as there is alot of waste that can go to a better source for our country, and I do hope that we band together as a nation to move towards a better future. And I am also willing to see what happens, and get behind whatever government is in power to make sure they do a better job leading us.
Spark
P.S: Vermillion, I thought I heard it from Obama, that families making a combined 100,000 and above, would be taxed at a higher rate shortly before the election. If that isn't true, then I apologize for the misinformation.
Spark-- I think here's where the confusion came from:
http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/10/stunning_obama_changes_tax_pla.php
he hasn't actually changed anything
ive had this discussion with several family members (die hard republicans) and they constantly throw the "my hard earned money will be used to fund lazy tricksters that just want to suckle the government tit" argument.
this is most like true to a certain degree.
but i believe firmly that this would happen no matter what political party was in power. the lazy tricksters that want to trick the government into paying their way will always find a way.
i also firmly believe that i would rather try to help the less fortunate in our society and inadvertently pay for a couple of lazy, poor, tricksters then not give a shit about those who aren't as fortunate as me.
to me its always been a funny juxtaposition that the democrats have been demonized for being about big government and higher taxes. government has grown just as much if not more under the republicans, its just not social programs that are growing or being spent on. the republicans grow the military to fucking ridiculous proportions, and tax the shit out of us to do it. the democrats grow social programs and tax the shit out of us to do it.
id rather have my money spent on the bettering of society and have a few tricksters scam money then assume that everyone is a trickster and tell them to fuck off.
id rather have my money spent on social programs then a war.
I don't know about everyone else but I was responding to Ephesians
Actually, in my time working with at risk children and families I probably only met one person that was abusing the system. The vast majority of people receiving social assistance genuinely need it. The problem is we need more systems in place to help these people free themselves from the welfare system and become self-sufficient. The system tends to perpetuate itself, unfortunately.
And, for those of you wondering, here is the Obama plan tax cut calculator
because of my wife's income we make more than 250k a year and i have absolutely no problem paying our fair share, even if they wanted us to pay the same percentage as people that make less i would have no problem with that either.
the average family pays 40% income tax
the rich pay around 22% currently
people that think this is fair and any change to even the playing field is pandering to lazy people need to have their head checked. from my experience the more money you make the less work you do.
Who's the bigger thief someone scamming food stamps, or companies scamming $14.3 billion when they don't need it?
What can someone get with food stamps... um food.
What can they get with $14.3 billion? The unwavering support of your family members and a presidential candidate? Drill baby drill.
Its time to wake up and understand they've been giving our money away like crazy and if we're going to give it away lets make sure that the majority of it goes to the right people or pays down our debt...
Astro is dead on. We do need welfare reform so its a hand up not a hand out. But it needs to be reformed not slashed and burned as we flounder around trying to get a budget that works. Which is what McCain was eying when he said "cut government spending and eliminate the programs that don't work". Want to get rid of welfare, fine but stop shipping our jobs overseas so we can survive...
Too bad McCain didn't win so that he could cut out pork barrel spending on things like planetariums and genetic research. Who needs science and education anyway?
I'm always amazed at the close-mindedness of some people. Growing up in a military family (father army, vietnam vet, extended family all in a branch of the armed services) I was alway taught that the Canadian military was one to respect greatly.
This be true.
I can say first hand that our welfare and assistance system is greatly busted. At least in California. When my wife got pregnant I had just gotten out of the military and was in school. We were living off my GI Bill and my Best Buy employment. Now trying to live in San Diego and living on that little income just wasn't cutting it. So we had to get help. However we didn't qualify for much else then medical because we had 2 cars. Mind you 2 older cars that were paid off from when I was in the military and were utter pieces of shit and we couldn't get cash aid or whatever it was called. However you would see people drive up to the same office in brand new escalades ( i shit you not) with huge ass diamond rings on their hands picking up their cash assistance checks and getting accepted into those programs. The reason they had 1 car and were making payments on it. They didn't own it. WHAT THE FUCK!!! So paying on a 40k dollar car is better then someone that owns 1 car worth 2500 and another worth 3500. Go figure.
Now that I have a good job I am thankful for at least the medical aid we were able to get because without that we would have been destroyed by all the medical bills from my wifes pregnancy.
So I am happy with Obama and I hope that change really does come. There are so many things in our country that need to be changed.
We now have a black president and that shows we are growing more mature and trying to put racism behind us on some levels but the next thing that has to end in my opinion is how people treat same sex couples as lower level citizens and can't even grant them the right to be married and in some states can't even foster or adopt a child. Seriously.
Our current republican government continues to waste money on stupid shit every day and then they promise to lower taxes. It's a bunch of shit. They are a huge reason as to why we have a huge deficit every year and why our economy is getting shit on.
Most people don't understand something important. The reason I had the chance to start my own business is because my country is so fucking awesome. Before these last 8 years of shit, the government actually took care of it's people and because of that we became extremely prosperous. Even if some of my money goes to some lazy mother fucker's college education that he never completes, he will become a more productive member of society due to the government's efforts and it makes our country better as a whole.
Why do you think I can walk to my trash cans without fear of getting robbed? Our government takes care of us with a good Police force. Why do you think I was able to get a loan and start this business? The Small Business Administration section of the government helped me get a loan. Why do you think I can compete in a free market? Why do you think our country is so damn safe from terrorism and shit? BECAUSE WE GIVE THEM FUCKING MONEY TO DO IT!
No honest & successful person would be where they are today if it weren't for our government. If they need money to take care of us and provide all these amazing things that allow us as individuals and a country to be extremely prosperous, then I'll hand it over in an instant.
You can bitch all you want about that "lazy Mexican" who got a college grant through the government, but I guarantee you the more people we have like that around here the better our country will become. That "lazy Negro" who is on welfare because his life is in deep shit right now is now given the potential to go make something of himself instead of turning into another piece of shit gang member who sells drugs and kills people.
Like Obama told "Joe the Plumber," yes, I will be taxing you more once you make more money. But put yourself in your shoes years ago when you didn't have a whole lot of money and you needed a break. If you had a break then, it would help you get to your goals faster.
The more tools we provide to our people as a whole will improve our country as a whole. We can't force them into becoming productive and successful members of society, but giving them more options to move into the realm of success can only make us better in the end.
A lot of other comments I've read(not anywhere in particular)has made me believe that all Americans are afraid of even a tiny bit of socialistic goodness.
It's like all things I read is that Americans take it for granted that taxes and (liberal) socialism is a bad thing, as if they've been force fed with it from birth(have you? :P)
I pay more than 50% taxes eat it!
Carry on! :-)
shitty image aint showing wtf
Sometimes I wish I lived your tiny world of blissful ignorance.
It's sarcasm kido. Just calm down. Think before you post.
Clinton attacked Somolia, Serbia, Afghanistan, Sudan and even Baghdad. All unauthorized attacks with no war declarations. He also committed adultry in a overwhelmingly christian country, bringing shame to himself and our nation, and lying to the American people about it.
No one is perfect. When Bush won in 2000 and 2004 I witnessed no face-rubs like dems were dishing out last night and today. It's disgraceful, pitiful and short sighted. Like a bully in school, laughing at the last picked in dodgeball. It accomplishes nothing, and it's pathetic.
Change will not come quickly like a lot of you think. We won't be out of Iraq until at least 2011. Universal healthcare won't happen in his first term, there's zero money thanks to Bush's war and Clinton's mortgage crisis. A lot of things have to be put on hold while Barrack fixes these things. I have no doubt that he will. It's going to take a long time to bounce back from the last 8 years, and we can only do it together. No point in teasing the losing party.
I voted for Barrack and he won. I'm very proud to have him as my president. But I did not gloat for a moment. There is no reason. Be happy and lets move on.
Oh for sure man, all i was saying is i dont think it had the impact that a lot of people thought it would(me included), I personally thought he didnt have a chance in hell, just because he was black, but then he beat out clinton in the primarys. But i voted for him, and am happy that there is a decent majority of people in the country that arent insane. SUCK IT VASSSSSSASSSSSSSSSSSGAAY
You love it when I do :poly136:
Haha, I kind of doubt any of the rest of the world gave two shits except that the American media/public made such a big thing of it, so I don't know that you could say it brought shame to your nation. Except maybe in your nations own eyes.
Does any other nation's opinion truly matter other than your own?
The world can hate my pres so long as they do a good job. My point about Clinton was that he lied to us just like Bush did. He also did his best to hide the illegal conflicts he started. Zeroing in specifically on the national shame excerpt skewed it off topic a tad and wasn't my intention.
at the end of bush's terms, america's relationship with india was on an especially good note [what with the nuclear deal getting a nod].
i hope obama continues in that light, and indo-american relations improve.
i also hope that america's general relations with the rest of the world improve too. the few past years have given them a bad name afaik.
i also like obama's economic policies, especially the ones which are 'mildly socialist.'
the system has worked for india for the past 61 years of independence, and it might help reduce poverty in the USA as well.
now then:
time to paint the white house black, and install that b-ball court.
oh, and crank that ludacris up to max bitches!
Sorry vas, but I'd imagine a lot of us feeling that if the rest of the world hates our president he isn't doing a good job, would you not agree?
Sadly(?), I really don't have enough pride in myself or our (any) country to believe that if the rest of the world is barking and we're not listening that there's something extremely wrong with our execution on present matters.
What I'd find interesting is how in the hell a president can be doing a good job when the world hates you. Really. I'd love to see the logic that has a president with a 60% American approval rating and a 20% international one. Its funny you'd say Clinton brought 'shame to our nation' in light of the 8 year parade of foreign relations debacles.... yeah, I remember how tremendous the international outrage was towards Clinton compared to, say, Abu Gharib.
Clinton's lies resulted in his impeachment and censure. Bush's resulted, instead, of thousands of US lives lost and millions of Iraqi's affected. Try telling a mother who has lost a son or daughter that Clinton's lie was 'just like' Bush's.
None of these guys are perfect, they all have their screwups- but please, when you are comparing two things, it should be done on equal and objective grounds. There are plenty of big ways Clinton screwed up, but to suggest he screwed up on anything near the level of Bush is a joke. Even worse, picking out the affair and coverup, and comparing that to Bush's major mistakes, is an insult to history, and an undue compliment to how awesome the rest of Clinton's presidency must have been.
My comment about the world hating the pres and I not caring was taken seriously and it was meant as a smart ass joke... Ease up a bit!
My cousin lost her husband in non-sanctioned Delta ops in Afghanistan in 1999. I guess you're only concerned with publicized losses?...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Infinite_Reach
Maybe that's what we need, but I don't know.
I'm not even of voting age, so whatever.
That's just sad... the youths are supposed to be all about idealism. Its about the only time in your life where your not broken down too far to be idealistic.
I thought I made it clear in the last paragraph. I am not excusing or apologizing many of the mistakes Clinton made- many of them resulting in unnecessary loss of life. What I am pointing out is that it is dishonest and harmful to compare two things on arbitrary ideological grounds while ignoring the scope of them. Saying something like, 'Clinton did unsanctioned Delta ops in Afghanistan and Bush invaded Iraq unilaterally' is ignoring completely what is in fact a very big, very real aspect of foreign policy and the actions of nations. The sad truth is that scope and numbers count, and nations often act to kill a few to save, they think, many. I don't think it is the right thing to do, but you cannot ignore that it is a very important factor when making decisions and taking action.
love all of you guys! Now get excited for black friday and go buy your new HD tv or game console!
ps..............OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!HELLLL YES!