Altair WIP

indian_boy · Jul 2007

hey there guys.
i know i know.... i'm already working on one thing, why am i diverting myself. Well, there is this competition that i wanna take part in, for which i need to hand in some fan art for the game Assassin's Creed. First prize is a copy of the game. I wanted to try out this model because i felt it was a crazy challenge for myself. The more i thought about it, the more obsessed i got, until i finally realized that there was no way i could get back to "Watashi Kaizoku" while knowing that i coulda done this to win the game.

Forgive me, but help me nonetheless... please.

Well, let's see, if u don't know about assassin's creed already, its a game by Ubisoft, and its protagonist is a character called Altair. Google it for further information, its too big to be explained here. For my piece of fan art, i thought i would try to duplicate Altair using 3ds Max. Now, i believe that working off concept art is something that pros in companies do alot [ie. without orthos?]. well, i guess that's what i'm doing now, cuz ppl rarely give out orthos of their characters right?

Going through the net, i picked a few images as my references:

[will add more to my search later]

Did some work on it [the model] today, and felt it was time to get the crits for my usual problems: proportions and mesh flow.

I'm looking forward to all suggestions, tips, and ideas that you want to put forth. Let's see if my skills are good enough to finally win me something

!
thanks guys!

indian_boy · Jul 2007

since i wasnt expecting much crits on the previous post [i need to get more work done], i went ahead and actually GOT some work done:

is this the complete basemesh? not until i know about the poly flow and anatomy it isn't.
Also, i was wondering if the leather straps on the character should be modelled as seperate objects? so far this is all one object @ 1700 tris.

all crits and suggestions are welcome, and [more specifically] advice and comments on the mesh flow or anatomy.

thanks

Marine · Jul 2007

legs look short, shoulders seem too wide and i think the trapezius is too big as well

indian_boy · Jul 2007

thanks for the tips
does this look more accurate:

looking forward to more advice!

Asmuel · Jul 2007

Hey Indian_boy

I would say rotate the legs further back, it should make the pose look more natural, humans tend to have their feet set quite far back. Also I would probably model the cloak separate if your going to have a highpoly and a lowpoly, I would actually model almost everything disconnected (topology goes crazy if you want everything together). The silhouette is pretty good

PS. are the legs from arsh's base mesh? I've got an eye for these type of things lol, look pretty similar. though its entirely possible you just copied the topology, I've done stuff like that before :P

Armanguy · Jul 2007

also in the concepts his right hand is missing a finger remember to remove it :P

Lord McMutton · Jul 2007

The upper part of his sleeves are a bit too loose in appearance.

Gmanx · Jul 2007

[ QUOTE ]
also in the concepts his right hand is missing a finger remember to remove it :P

[/ QUOTE ]

LEFT hand. The blade fits through the resulting gap in his fist...

indian_boy · Jul 2007

@Asmuel: wow! great eyes! but non, i just referenced the topology. i'm glad i got it that close! yay! And thanks for the tip about rotating the legs a bit further back. i thought something was looking weird. As for modelling everything disconnected, this is what i've done till now: torso, arms, cloak are one element. Second layer of cloaks are another element, and the legs are another element. Head, sheath etc. are seperate objects. Would that suffice? Subdividing in mudbox [as a test] resulted in nothing strange, but if im doing something wrong, thanks for the tip!

@Armanguy + Gmanx: haha. no chance i'd forget that. I just had the symmetry modifier on till now. Yeah, its the ring finger on the left hand. awesome character.

@Marshal Banana: thanks for that. are the new sleeves looking better? and does it seemed crumpled where the glove begins? that would obviously rely more on the normal maps....

UPDATE:

here we are. finally got rid of the symmetry. Any advice is welcome, yet again. Thanks for the tips so far, and thanks in advance!

Armanguy · Jul 2007

looks really good no much of a character modeler so i have no crits cant ait to see the texture.

Asmuel · Jul 2007

Hey Indian_boy

The reason I said I would have everything disconnected is because I usually make a rough lowpoly, made up of different parts, then start sculpting, and then build a new lowpoly when Im done. I'm not saying its the best method, its just my workflow. If your intending for this mesh to be the final lowpoly (perhaps with UV's before sculpting?), then I would make one connected mesh, and then prehaps break it up before I start subdividing into separate parts. Its entirely up to you though, whatever gives you best results

indian_boy · Jul 2007

@Armanguy: thanks for the compliment

@Asmuel: oh i see. i think i know what u mean, but the problem is that if i split up the mesh, export to mudbox and subdivide, the seam becomes all squiggly and doesn't fit when i try to join the meshes together, so i go for the mask-and-work method. thanks for the tips though.

update may come later in the day. as of now, i was wondering: what texture sizes should i aim for? it seems to me that the character would be 2048*2048 with another 1024*1024 for accessories. that might be it, cuz of the 360 specs... so i was just looking for some insight on tex limits.

thanks for all the support thus far!

Joao Sapiro · Jul 2007

go as low as possible with the most ammount of detail possible, imo you still dont quite have enough texturing confidence to go to 2048x2048 maps, the bigger res sometimes doesnt mean more quality. id say 512x512 max for face and a 1025x512 forbody.

type less work more

indian_boy · Jul 2007

. <== type less /
work more ==>

lol. okay wait, so 512* for head, and 1024*512 for body. How would i go about makng a UV template for a "not-square" map? never done it before

.and i was thinking that this guy won't need a 'back of the head' so i might just make 1 big 1024* and put everything in that?

apart from that, how's the mesh looking? im actually kinda proud of it... should i not be?

Joao Sapiro · Jul 2007

i like the hands althou he seems to have less a finger , also i see some wasted poly here and there , specially in the arms and legs , also the edgeflow on the shoulders will give you trouble when deforming them

keep at it , its good to see you improving !

killingpeople · Jul 2007

oh johny you noob. altair is missing a finger.

(see concept)

Xenobond · Jul 2007

You've also got too many polys being wasted in the head that aren't contributing to the overall shape. Since his head is mostly hidden by the hood, it'd be a smart move to trim all that stuff down.

You may want to mess with rigging those arms up and seeing how badly the shoulder/armpit areas deform. Those parts could use the most work.

Wells · Jul 2007

the frogs attach to the top of the scabbard, just below the cross-guard. you've got it down about halfway.

I'm not sure the strap hanging down in front of his crotch needs the bisecting vertical loop.

Asmuel · Jul 2007

looks good now

, my advice was probably just confusing sorry

Reference for good shoulder topology, thought I would post it seeing as someone mentioned shoulder deformation. Thanks Pior, The second example is great for animation, clean loops are your friend...
http://boards.polycount.net/showflat.php...true#Post172375

indian_boy · Jul 2007

oh wow! thats a good handful of comments! thanks guys. now lets see:
@Johny: a) lol; b)thanks... still striving to get better.
@kp: lol.
@Xenobond: thanks for the tips. i've deleted half of the head [as you'll see in the next shot], and tried messing around the rigging. so im gonna say "uh oh" before you guys see the next shot.
@Sectaurs: i can't believe i didn't realize that! well wait, frogs = straps; scabbard = sheath right? in that case: "i can't believe i didn't realize that!" [thanks for the vocab lesson too!] i got rid of the vertical loop on the front and back strips.

update:

im gonna have to figure out how to do the shoulders nicely. any tips?

thanks guys. i'm loving the support im getting!

EDIT:asmuel, if i'd waited 5 minutes longer, lol. thanks for the link. i'll be sure to go through it! and possibly bookmark it?

indian_boy · Jul 2007

w00t double post: better?:

ill mirror the arms over when i get the anatomy down to pat.

Asmuel · Jul 2007

I wouldn't link the pectoral into the deltoid, I would do it like in the second example in the link I showed you (bendy straw style). Deforms much nicer

PolyPutty · Jul 2007

your thumb seems to small to me.

indian_boy · Jul 2007

nono,... my thumb is just fine. oh wait, altairs!!! oohhh! [excuse the lameness please].
right i'll fix that up. thanks for the help!

as for the "modelling for rigging". how does this look:

i think we all see that i'll be an animator :P!

thanks for all the help!

EDIT: i mean: i'll NOT be an animator :P!

indian_boy · Jul 2007

hey guys!
i sent the arms out a bit [yes, edit poly again] so that they're at a 45 degree angle as opposed to 20 or so that they were earlier. Tested a rig, and it seems to be working a-okay! i even set up some bones for the bags hanging from his back, and the sheath etc. etc. and its all working seemingly fine!
UPDATE:
in this update, i just want to show you guys Altair in his new default pose. Just worried that i might have messed up the shapes while bringing him to a new position:

what do you think? am i gonna move on to UV mapping now? 3,108tris so far, just need to check if i'm missing certain assets etc.

oh yeah: symmetry modifier is on again, for the time being.

any tips on mudboxing cloth would be of the greatest help atm, but other advise is _always_ greatly appreciated!

Joao Sapiro · Jul 2007

mesh looks better, thumb is still weird and i still see wasted polygons, i wouldnt worry about mudboxing yet since you should practise more your handpainted texture painting imo. Good luck !

indian_boy · Jul 2007

honestly speaking, Johny, i couldn't agree with you more [about handpainted textures], but i was actually resereving that for Watashi Kaizoku over at my workflow improvement thread.
As for the thumb and wasted polies, i'll look into that. thank you very much for the advice.

as of now, i've worked on some of the mid-res and high-res details, still in 3ds Max. this renderering is with 1 skylight, 1 spot and light tracer on:

just wondering what you guys thought! [note, only one boot is present]

Sayanora · Jul 2007

Johnny and maybe some others have mentioned this but, the thumb. Please fix it

Asmuel · Jul 2007

Looks great

Keep going. You need to fatten that palm up a bit, and generally peoples fingers become more bent over from front to back, index being fairly straight and pinky being bent about 45 degrees or more. Some more had reference might help, keep it up though looking good

indian_boy · Jul 2007

for some strange reason, i'm starting to feel like there's something wrong with the hands. lol, j/k.
thanks for the advice and images. I was earlier thinking that the problem was the size of the thumb? but i guess it looks like the positioning aswell. whatever it was, the collection of crits on the hands alone warrants one of these:

hand close-up!

looking better? i'm not that great with hands [whether 2d or 3d], so your advice is really gonna help.

thanks for the advice guys. its coming at a great pace to keep me working

[im testing myself with a 2 week deadline lol]

Zwebbie · Jul 2007

You seem to have put quite some polygons in the roundness of the fingers, but few in the joints. At the very least, I'd put a half-loop on the top side of where they bend to make them deform just that bit prettier.

Check out the Low Poly Hands thread for some ideas: http://72.232.179.131:8003/showflat.php?...;gonew=1#UNREAD

indian_boy · Jul 2007

thanks for the link.
i added a loop or two to each joint in the finger... does this look more correct:

thanks, once again.
oh, and i'm thinking, does the mesh look good atm? apart from the hand, is anything else standing out as needing changes?

Joao Sapiro · Jul 2007

you have some un needed polygons on the foot, and the foot shape isnt much good, but since you decided to sculpt you can adjust that easily.

And that hand mesh althou is better still is terrible , look at your own hand and draw loops on it i promisse you it helps

Rob Galanakis · Jul 2007

Ben Mathis has a hand mesh wireframe somewhere, let me try and find it... I should favourite the thread. Its damn nice.

Here you go:

indian_boy · Jul 2007

thnks Johny and Professor420 [i think that image is also in the link comrade posted, in case u wanna bookmark the page:D].

but yeah, lets see:

i know i can't judge by myself, but i think im getting a hang of it? except for the thumb....
it definately needs some more work, not sure where though, lol

Joao Sapiro · Jul 2007

i would try using as less geometry first, right now you have too many polygons disctracting you from the main shape, use only like 100 tris to make a hand, then make one with 150 etc will help alot !

thnom · Jul 2007

The length deviation of each fingers looks just too much. Look at your hand- the index finger is the same finger as the pointing finger.. yet yours looks a good inch shorter. The pinky is then ~ an inch from that - your pinky looks about 3

Same thing.. the thickness of our fingers is consistent across the board, the pinky looks rather skinny.

Marine · Jul 2007

fingers are either too thin or too widely spaced

Asmuel · Jul 2007

If you look at your hand side on, so your looking at your index finger and thumb, you will notice they make a nice C shape. You can see this in the forth hand Professor420 posted. If you pull the thumb towards his body more and perhaps rotate it a bit it should look fuller and more natural

indian_boy · Jul 2007

i swear! for a moment, i felt like changing altair's backstory:
"And as the man brought down the knife to cut Altair's finger, he missed his mark, and cut off both hands."

thanks for all the tips. taking them into account, i deleted the hands completely, and started from scratch. There are definately some problems here [there _have_ to be], so any help is more than welcome!

indian_boy · Jul 2007

added some cuts and modified some shapes. how's it looking:

rooster · Jul 2007

I would look at the length of each 'segment' of finger- you should find the finger bone closest to the hand is longest, then the next is about 3/4 of that, and the next 3/4 of the one before. you currently have the mid section the longest which is throwing the fingers off

indian_boy · Jul 2007

ah. good point you've got rooster. thanks for the tip, i think i've managed to fix that up here:

the hands are agitating me quite a bit... can't believe i've spent so much time focussing on them! lol! what else did i have to do again? apart from shave some polies?

indian_boy · Jul 2007

i thought i'd post up some work which wasn't the hand [that hasn't happened for a while i think?]. so i thought i'd show some 'mid-res' things i'd made in 3ds Max. They include the gloves, the boots, the straps across his chest, and the cloth hanging in front of him. They're not complete, but i thought i'd just show them anyways:

peace!

rooster · Jul 2007

good stuff! hands look much better than when they started- I'd just look at the fingertips now, compare them to Poops model- theyd benefit from looking rounder as they're quite sharp at the mo. looks promising

indian_boy · Jul 2007

really? wow that's good to know! thanks for the help with the hands. as for rounding the finger tips:

wll, i know they look really sharp in this view, but when i render them, the fingers smooth out. i'm guessing game engines smooth out the polies w/ smoothing groups right?

but yeah, are they looking better now? and does it look like a complete hand?

once again, thanks for all the help till now!
cheers!

indian_boy · Jul 2007

i suppose that means that there aren't any more glaring mistakes with the hands? well then:

is that my basemesh?

rooster · Jul 2007

arr, you're going to hate me for this, but I failed to notice you're mudboxing him- in which case you're better off with quads in the hands.. I'd try and tweak the loops to get rid of any stray tris. well before you do that, test it out and see if it's a problem might be fine

looks like a good base to me, but always try it out a bit before calling it ready

gauss · Jul 2007

been enjoying watching you on this one. as you know, 3d isn't really my thing, but your polygon flow/distribution/form making has made rapid gains. keep up the good work

Emil Mujanovic · Jul 2007

Its been a while since I've left C&C on your work, but you are rapidly improving which is great! Each model is looking better and better and far more refined. Great stuff dude.

-caseyjones

indian_boy · Jul 2007

...
:falls off his chair:

wow. thanks for the compliments guys. they are MORE than average confidence boosters, trust me. :goes off into a dream about being an industry=pro: glad that you see such an improvement.

and don't worry about it rooster. lol. i won't/wouldn't hate u. luckily enough though, when i subdivided and tried some sculpting, the hand didn't seem to mess up. thanks for the tip!

uhh. about not having an update. came hope late these last two days, so didn't get a chance to do anything substantial. currently, im working on a 'mid-res' mesh of Altair. it'll go into mudbox soon.... any tips on mudboxing cloth?

thanks for all the support!

Altair WIP

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