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How The F*#% Do I Model This? - Reply for help with specific shapes - (Post attempt before asking)

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  • musashidan
  • musashidan
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    musashidan high dynamic range


    double vert chamfer>face inset>topo cleanup



    Optional step for the quad-fanatics



  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx polycounter
    perna said:
    @musashidan , "topo cleanup" sounds trivial, but you're actually making very significant shape edits during that stage, not just cleaning topo. I'd be interested in seeing whether someone has a more accurate, efficient and ideally configurable way of approaching this shape.
    does boolean have anything to do with this? :P 
  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx polycounter
    STEPS FOR THE NEW ONE. 
    1. box
    2. inset the sides i want to bevel, top, left and right
    3. use turbosmooth and smoothjing groups (top left and right have the same smoothing groups
    4. delete the edges inbetween those sides. 
    5. Bridge and turbosmooth. 

    And i bet you Perna will do it in 5 steps less. 




  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx polycounter
    perna said:
    @wirrexx , oh I don't really have an ideal solution to this problem. I mean, if we should allow for variable chamfer width along the edges and have that add up with the curvature of the corner, and also be able to have as many subdivisions as we want on the corner geometry and so on, it's a complex problem.

    In terms of earlier suggestions, I don't think anything with a huge manual cleanup stage or anything that gives wonky curves or bad aesthetics or bad shading should be in the running.

    The below basic boolean op requires zero manual cleanup or in fact any manual work whatsoever and the shading quality is good enough for most purposes. The curvature is clean. To change the width of the outer edge fillets you'd simply move the intersection points closer to the corner, along with a scale op if you want to actually keep the boundaries in the same places and so on (well, if it's all going to be uniform, just change the scale of the sphere in the boolean op).

    However you'll need another type of topology if you want yet another chamfer surrounding the triangle of the corner, which will be necessary if you need an exact style of chamfer on the edges.

    Yeah this got rambly, just writing this in a hurry, Saturday and all


    that was the step i took on the first one! =) so it made me happy  seeing this! 
  • musashidan
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    musashidan high dynamic range
    perna said:
    @musashidan , "topo cleanup" sounds trivial, but you're actually making very significant shape edits during that stage, not just cleaning topo.
    @perna It actually is pretty trivial, with no significant shape changes: Quickslice/delete to clean the inset topo. Collapse 3x vert pairs. Move corner edges with Normal constraint to flatten. 3x edge chamfer. That's it.

  • musashidan
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    musashidan high dynamic range
    @perna yeah, I tried your boolean method too, as soon as I saw it. Works out pretty good. Still a bit of manual work though when intended for sub-d. I'm not sure if I'm into the mathematical perfection route, though, when I'm modeling. While I definitely respect the fact that this whole endeavour is entirely mathematical, I'm often an eyeball modeler. :)
  • musashidan
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    musashidan high dynamic range
    @perna so there wasn't a single stray vert from the boolean operation? Unusual in this type of intersection. Scaling the spheroid to allow a larger/smaller chamfer is definitely going to result in strays or verts that need to be collapsed/welded. Also, if changes down the road meant maybe one of the chamfers needed to be wider then the perfect curve would need to be manually tweaked.

    I'm not arguing that doing it by hand or 'eyeballing' is better in any way. I'm just surprised that you had zero stray verts. Personally, when I'm modeling, a lot of the time I'm plowing through the work, trying to get piece after piece done within a certain time. I'm not saying I'm sloppy as I'm rather ocd but by 'eyeballing' I mean trying not to obsess or spend too much time noodling or tweaking things that won't really be noticed for the asset purposes. I've learned over the years that I've wasted far too much time on small things that don't matter all that much in the end. I'm not using what we're talking about here as an example as I'm finding it interesting, I'm speaking generally.
  • NoRank
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    NoRank polycounter lvl 3
    But to get rid of those stray vertices is something really fast, 2 or 3 clicks and they're all gone. It could be faster with a script thought, something like 1 click.
  • musashidan
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    musashidan high dynamic range
    NoRank said:
    But to get rid of those stray vertices is something really fast, 2 or 3 clicks and they're all gone. It could be faster with a script thought, something like 1 click.
    Yes, I use a vert cleaner script like that myself. But, I'm also wondering about verts that may need to be welded/collapsed if the chamfer width changes. Or edgeloops/creasing added if sub-d is required.
  • musashidan
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    musashidan high dynamic range
    @perna thanks mate. I'll definitely check out the file tomorrow. Just need to get the pesky need to sleep out of the way first.....
  • NoRank
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    NoRank polycounter lvl 3
    Interesting way of doing this, so you have two probooleans and one is for controlling the chamfer width.

    And now that I saw, turn to poly has one option to remove the mid edge vertices, quite a rookie mistake of mine not to read those options in this modifier.
  • ActionDawg
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    ActionDawg greentooth
    Are you telling me I've been manually cleaning stray boolean verts forever, when Max has the feature built in?

    For fucks sake, the things you can find out about a program you've used for a decade. Thanks perna!
  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx polycounter
    so last attempt, did this before work, so 10 min of work (probably 2 min of clean up, mostly target welding vertex). 
    Not even close to correct scale but it was nice for a change of working with my current scene. 
  • PetSto
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    PetSto polycounter lvl 4
    Thank you guys for all solutions that you posted here. Can you send me step by step guide, that will help me a lot, because as I see all of you work in 3ds Max and I am Maya user. Thank you for your time to spend to find right solution for this problem.
  • Neox
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    Neox quad damage


    here is your step by step guide :o 
  • goodmelody491
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  • PetSto
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    PetSto polycounter lvl 4
    Neox said:


    here is your step by step guide :o 
    This is not exactly what I need. All 3 beveled corners has same width and I need something as was posted Wirrexx:, where front side beveled corner has width 3 times bigger as is on image.

  • ashu
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    ashu polycounter lvl 2
    good job buddy
  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx polycounter
    PetSto said:
    Neox said:


    here is your step by step guide :o 
    This is not exactly what I need. All 3 beveled corners has same width and I need something as was posted Wirrexx:, where front side beveled corner has width 3 times bigger as is on image.

    Used Pernas technique on my version, but instead of cutting the edge at the same plase on all three corners, i cut the "fat" one a little bit earlier. But exaaaaaaaaaaactly the same technique as Pernish was showing on his mini tut. 
  • musashidan
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    musashidan high dynamic range
    perna said:

    speaking of medium-sized details, I avoid manually modeling a curve which consists of anything more than two or three uniformly sized quads. It's just too difficult and/or finicky to get right, and not parametric. Smooth, clean, sexy curves are so important for hard surface. Slightly nudge a single vertex and the shape falls apart. Even the max file I linked to above isn't good enough for a large, highly reflective shape. Narrow the specular highlight and rotate around the shape - the shading looks far from perfect although the curvature is very good.


    @perna Yes, highly reflective sub-D surfaces have always suffered these problems. In the automotive vis/vfx industry there are still those who prefer NURBS surfaces for those reasons or dedicated post-prod, touch-up artists whose sole job might be to paint out those reflection imperfections on non-NURBS modeled assets.

    Although in vfx/game asset authoring the asset will most likely(in a lot of cases) have a dulled/dirty/worn/rough finish to the shader and those reflection issues can certainly be unnoticeable.

    Had a look at your file. Thanks for sharing. Clever set up. :) Just wondering, on your set up the chamfer widths can be procedurally widened/narrowed but, this will affect the perfection of that curve and as you quite rightly said, that one vert can throw the whole curve off. Or maybe I missed something in your file. Secondly, out of curiosity, any reason that you use Meshsmooth over Opensubdiv?

    @petsto if you still have to ask that after all these posts then that is indeed a sorry state of affairs for your modeling progression. This thread is a wealth of tips/tricks/advice, and great examples of little problems/puzzles for you to solve. Looking for 'click this, cick that' hand-holding is a waste of time if you really want to get better and get your brain activated. You should be able to look at any of the examples posted and recreate them by putting the time into solving/reverse engineering it yourself. Even if it takes you a week to figure out how to model the example above it's time much better spent than 30min of being walked through the solution without really having to activate your brain.
  • NoRank
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    NoRank polycounter lvl 3
    As we are talking about booleans, is there any good way of reducing the amount of manual work of setting control loops?

    I mean, you can have way less manual work (or none) with marius' quad chamfer script, but what do you do if you don't have it? Max quad chamfer can sometimes help, but most of the times I have to manually correct the control loops that the modifier made.

    I've read here on polycount something about using one refference mesh with a push modifier with the "intersection" option on in the probooleans modifier, yet when you do that it actually converts all your operands to intersection as well, so I guess this doesn't work.

    Not trying to be lazy, just trying to see if I've overlooked some max functionality that does a good job on this kind of stuff. What I normally do is plan my topology before doing the booleans stuff so it will already have those support loops or it will be easier to set them, but that does involve quite a good amount of manual work.
  • ActionDawg
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    ActionDawg greentooth
    When you say it collapses to epoly and not emesh, could you elaborate on the impact that has for you, if any? Does it affect your workflow to use collapse to versus convert to? 

    The only edge case I can see off the top of my head is if you had modifiers above turbosmooth and wanted to collapse it. In that case I would simply cut the relevant modifiers, convert to poly, and paste them back on.

    On the OpenSubdiv note I have found one single shape as of late that was easier for me to do with it (before I got glorious quadchamfer):


    That said I have all but abandoned OSD as resetting edge weights every time you make a change gets tiresome. Now if there was a tool somewhere between QC and OSD, where you can set absolute chamfer widths QC style, but do it all in one go like OSD, I'd have a hot dollar for that.
  • ActionDawg
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    ActionDawg greentooth
    I'd be quite interested in learning more about this virtual stack, if it's something available to get. I have seen similar addons from studios but don't have anything for personal use.

    Fair point on the click counts. I tested and it is a good bit faster. Cheers!

    Perhaps I should, but generally speaking I've never worried too much over counting button presses, learning/customizing tons of hotkeys, or highly customizing my programs. I've just gotten quite fast with what's there and find the mouse to be much more comfortable on my hands. Core editable poly tools and such I'll usually do with hotkeys but that's about the extent of it.
  • ActionDawg
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    ActionDawg greentooth
    Great notes! It's been like a decade since I've touched maxscript but I'll give it a go :)

    Unfortunately I'm the only artist at my company right now (and was the best when there were others), so my daily access to that sort of talent is eh... limited at the moment. And boy do I have horror stories to tell over a beer. My current work is endless, mindless CAD to low poly and it's slowly killing me. It's time to move on up.

    Poor cat.
  • Filip5
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    Filip5 polycounter lvl 6
    Hey guys, I wonder if there is another way of modeling this. Right now there are also inner faces on those sides, but I wonder if I could make topology better. Its a bit of a tricky part for me.


  • ActionDawg
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    ActionDawg greentooth
    Could you share a reference so we know what your end goal is?
  • Filip5
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    Filip5 polycounter lvl 6
    Sure, its the tower on the right top side. This is about the best image I could get for that part, hopefully its sufficient.
    http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/10881821.jpg

    Posting link so you can enlarger the image if needed.
  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx polycounter
    Filip5 said:
    Sure, its the tower on the right top side. This is about the best image I could get for that part, hopefully its sufficient.
    http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/10881821.jpg

    Posting link so you can enlarger the image if needed.
    split it up, if that's the building and roof. Roof are made of one part (and even that is split up in many) . Honestly i have no idea what part you are trying to model.... 
  • ActionDawg
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    ActionDawg greentooth
    Oh hey I guessed correctly! Castle facade.

    If you don't have other references, get them. I can tell from this image though that it's definitely made of many different parts. Model it how it is actually built in real life, brick by brick with shingles and trims and all. Not as one solid piece. The low poly will look similar to what you have now.
  • mobpapst
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    mobpapst polycounter lvl 4
    Hey guys,

    how can i model the best these little square details on this nearly round shape?:




  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx polycounter
    mobpapst said:
    Hey guys,

    how can i model the best these little square details on this nearly round shape?:



    Show us how far you've got. 
  • mobpapst
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    mobpapst polycounter lvl 4
    My problem is how to get the front face all in quads of the same size to get no curved details at the coners. thats all i need to know
  • ActionDawg
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    ActionDawg greentooth
    use photoshop or substance or quixel and call it a day

    displacement map it if you ~really~ need the geo
  • mobpapst
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    mobpapst polycounter lvl 4
  • final_fight
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    final_fight polycounter lvl 7
    Take some plane with like 16 x 16 segments then boolean intersection (proboolean in Max with Imprint on) with cylinder, delete polys you dont need.


  • mobpapst
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    mobpapst polycounter lvl 4
    cool this looks quite close. thanks i will test it
  • NoRank
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    NoRank polycounter lvl 3
    @perna thanks a lot for the file, surely nice to see how this works. Again, never thought of using two probooleans, and using a refference and one instance for controlling the operands. Really nice trick haha. I still don't know if this wouldn't get "chaotic" as soon as the operands increase in number but that's something nice to try.

    The one on the right is "easier" but I guess I would have to extrude the shapes after doing those operations...

    Didn't know that they updated max quadchamfer on 2018. I was actually avoiding 2018 because people were oftenly saying that it was buggy (even thought I actually heard that they focused on fixing 2017's bugs). I will give it a try at home.

    Thanks for the info. 
  • Kosai106
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    Kosai106 polycounter lvl 11
    mobpapst said:
    Hey guys,

    how can i model the best these little square details on this nearly round shape?:




    Use floating geometry.
  • Psychotic_Mike
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    Psychotic_Mike polycounter lvl 9
    Kosai106 said:
    mobpapst said:
    Hey guys,

    how can i model the best these little square details on this nearly round shape?:




    Use floating geometry.

    hope it helps

  • Filip5
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    Filip5 polycounter lvl 6

    @perna

    I am asking about the part that I have shown to you. That castle wall thing with 8 segments. Right now, enclosing the sides of them creates a lot faces which are not visible on model. However, adding loops just complicates the model too much. Therefore I asked if there is another way or how would you model it...
  • final_fight
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    final_fight polycounter lvl 7
    Does anybody know script analog of Turn to Poly standard modifier that doest the job better?
  • Nominous
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    Nominous polycounter lvl 7

    perna said:



    Hi, I'm trying to recreate the quad sphere with flat sides (all the way back from pg. 20 of this thread, lol), but I can't seem to scale the secondary cube in order to avoid tris. For the quad sphere, I'm using a 4x4x4 cube with Spherify > Turbosmooth (1 iteration) > Spherify applied, which I believe is as round a sphere as it can get at that resolution.



    I tried deleting the last Spherify modifier, but it hardly changed the topology. You mentioned your method requires zero cleanup, so I'm curious how you created your quad sphere.
  • Nominous
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    Nominous polycounter lvl 7
    @perna Awesome, thanks a bunch for the help. It's a no-go for my original quad sphere since scaling the cube down as small as possible still results in tris. I tried the stack you suggested with various Relax values, but it still results in an imperfect sphere and tris. It's probably because I'm unaware of the magic values/combination of modifers.

    I saw the script page and the subdiv 1 sphere immediately reminded me of ZBrush, so I created a perfect quad sphere in there and exported an .obj to Max. With Turbosmooth on it, it seems to give the same results as yours. :)



    The only question I have left is how you scaled the ProBoolean cube down to line up perfectly with the quad sphere's vertices. I did this by selecting each face and vertex-snapping to the respective vertices around the poles. It's fast enough, but is there a way to do this faster?
  • musashidan
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    musashidan high dynamic range
    perna said:

    Let's flip the question around: Why do you prefer OpenSubDiv? In my experience it has been very buggy and unreliable.



    @perna Just habit, as well, I suppose. Based on a few factors:

    When Turbosmooth was first introduced we all had shit ram and it was its namesake over MS. When OpenSD came along I was creating a lot of offline rendertime sub-div models at the time and the old problem of linear Vs smooth UVs in Max was better (somewhat)solved with OpenSD. I have had it added to my custom modifier stack since then. Also, the fact that OpenSD defaults to isoline display and collapses to Epoly.(although I have collapse to Epoly hotkeyed so not as much of an annoyance)



  • dlz
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    dlz polycounter lvl 4
    any way to get rid of that artifacts ?
    should i change the topology or try a diferent aproach?
    what will be your process to make that in maya?
     

  • Frank Horrigan
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    Frank Horrigan polycounter lvl 8
    Hello!
    Help me please with this shapes


    [spoiler]


    [/spoiler]
  • Klawd
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    Klawd polycounter lvl 4
    Hello technical polycounters,
    first time asking for help, could you point me in the right direction in modeling this one? It's giving me an headache...

  • Neox
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    Neox quad damage
    Klawd said:
    Hello technical polycounters,
    first time asking for help, could you point me in the right direction in modeling this one? It's giving me an headache...

    what do you expect people to do with this request?

    Whats your take on it so far?

    To me it looks like a bunch of primitives and some additive/subtractive bools to get the basic shape.
  • Klawd
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    Klawd polycounter lvl 4
    Just asking for a hint in the right direction, like what technique you would use to approach it. How exactly would you go at it with basic booleans? What after the basic shape? I find the main piece that goes from cube to circle easy to obtain with subd, but then I'm lost as how to add the side cylinder. 

    Now after an hour or two of headaches I'm managing some basic results using modo mesh fusion... 

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