Home Technical Talk

How The F*#% Do I Model This? - Reply for help with specific shapes - (Post attempt before asking)

Replies

  • Thanez
    Offline / Send Message
    Thanez interpolator
    @8th_Scepter, part of why you're having a hard time is that you're modeling two separate pieces as one, so you're either suffering because you didn't study your references well enough or simply didn't find good ones. In future, try this: http://deicidenbf.thanez.net/
    Credits to anything found there go to DeicideNBF. I just host the pix.
  • sheheryar_noor
    Offline / Send Message
    sheheryar_noor polycounter lvl 8
    Algecir
    Sliced cylinder http://prntscr.com/f5th54
    Pull vertices and shell,http://prntscr.com/f5thmw
    Turbosmooth http://prntscr.com/f5thze

    Not sure if it looks same as this.



  • mverta
    Offline / Send Message
    mverta vertex
    @perna  Thank you, and yes I've seen it asked and answered in various ways, none of which seem to make sense enough to me to directly apply.  As I said, the first suggestion (more base resolution) is impractical, and when it comes to things like you've illustrated in that link, they seem to point to early termination and n-gons/triangles/whatever to localize the problem.  I've tried that, too, and seem to come up with artifacts, so perhaps it's just that I'm not terminating things the right way.  I suppose I'll just have to keep playing.  I have to learn to do this and can't give up.
  • admiralpixel15
    Offline / Send Message
    admiralpixel15 polycounter lvl 2
    Hey everyone. Second time posting a problem here. I'm practicing some hard-surface shapes and I encounter this type of shape and I have no idea how to block out the shape. I tried different methods but they don't work perfectly. Thanks in advance. 

    Link: http://imgur.com/a/0tONk (I can't upload images I don't know why)




  • Neox
    Offline / Send Message
    Neox quad damage


    take a box, angle it, subtract bool it from your shape, clean up, profit
  • admiralpixel15
    Offline / Send Message
    admiralpixel15 polycounter lvl 2
    @perna @Neox Hey there Sir, sorry for the late reply. Thanks for solving my problem with the shape. Here's my attempt of making it. I tried to increase the loops to compensate with the shading problem for the corners. Is that bad? and please critique my work in case there's flaws with it.

    @perna Yes sir I do really need more practice with booleans as I rarely use them. I will definitely do some hard-surface block-outs as well. Thanks for the advice Sir PER.





  • admiralpixel15
    Offline / Send Message
    admiralpixel15 polycounter lvl 2
    @perna Hey there sir and sorry for late reply. I just want to say your methodologies/techniques are the most easiest and most efficient way of modeling shapes. Before I posted my problem I did try your method with the three edges but I was having difficulties getting  the hard edge in the middle and I was desperate to perfect it but fails every time. I tried to use booleans as you told me solves it, but not the most efficient but it's effective. I keep forgetting the fundamental part of subD and that increasing the resolution of the model is not the right path to go to. Anyways thanks for making an effort solving my problem and showing your way of approaching the shape.

    Seeing your model makes me wanna kill myself. I wonder how did you get the hard edge in the middle part. Was it one of your modifiers? I used Maya instead of 3DS Max because it's the university's main tool for 3D stuffs. Sorry to bother you.
  • admiralpixel15
    Offline / Send Message
    admiralpixel15 polycounter lvl 2
    @perna The edge with the boolean cut-out, the one circled in the image from the post above. I was really hoping that some features in Max is implemented in Maya. Like the Quad-chamfer for edges instead of Bevel and Shell for thickness instead of Extrude because it gives you more control in my opinion. I need practice in terms of edge loop efficiency like how Vitaly Bulgarov do to his 3D models and some block-outs. Blocking out the shape is my enemy especially if there is a complex/complicated cut/inset. Any tips/advice from that one? 

    Anyways here's a sample of Bulgarovs 3D stuffs from his Ultraborg kitbash. Currently studying edge loops efficiency to make the shape but also terminating tris to make it quads. Anyways thanks for your time. I won't ask anymore and abuse you.
  • fearian
    Offline / Send Message
    fearian Polycount Sponsor
    I really liked the simplicity of Perna's approach so I decided to have a go at it without the Quad Chamfer modifier, and using again using Open Sub-Div. I'm trying to get used to using Open SubDiv so this was a learning experiment!



    Without Quad chamfer both required a fair about of cleanup to control edge hardness. Using Max's chamfer modifier I was really limited to how soft I could get the edges in tight spots without the chamfers overlapping each other. Using open subdiv there wasn't enough mesh density around the 'slice' to give a nice bevel. I ended up adding loops later on to clean this up.



    The other problem with Open Subdiv I found was editing the poly added new hard edges that I had to clean up, or it messed up my crease settings. I also had to really fine tune my creasing on an edge by edge basis that was quite tedious.


    @perna by the way, do you have anything set up to stop max from smoothing the entire mesh by default when you chamfer an edge? having to always uncheck that box is annoying as hell. Especially when if I miss it I might not notice for a while.

    anyway this shape is fun, I'm going to detail it out!
  • fearian
    Offline / Send Message
    fearian Polycount Sponsor
    @perna you absolute saint. Yes setting all those up manually is constant annoyance. I can't wait to give this a run!  <3

    Yeah in reality I could get more consistent edges at the smoothness I wanted if I just built the model with that in mind. But I wasn't really paying attention to proportions when I threw it together and stuck in some too-thin bevels. Mind you, having consistent edges is something I always struggle with!!
    There are all sorts of tricks and approaches to avoid overlapping chamfers, so you should strive to learn those instead of turning to Creases, which is an absolute nightmarish disaster for hard-surface and I strongly recommend against using it for anything but unimportant background objects.
    What a ringing endorsement! /s. Ha! Yes, from detailing out the rest of the model yesterday I eventually started getting sick of having to constantly reset crease values on edges, remove creasing from flat edges that where adjacent to a creased edge I had chamfered. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a disaster, but the Open SubDiv tool in max are not solid enough IMO, and it definitely lacks the control you get from support geo, to the point that I ended up putting in loops in place regardless. 
  • sanfuer
    Offline / Send Message
    sanfuer polycounter lvl 4
    Hello everyone, I'm trying to model 2 twisted pipes but I'm struggling with the ends and the pinch I'm getting, if any of you kind sirs could help me out that'd be awesome
    Here is what I'm looking for :



     And here's my attempt :

     As you can see I'm not getting the shape i want and I faces overlapping. Thank you everyone
  • wirrexx
    Offline / Send Message
    wirrexx polycounter
    perna said:
    @admiralpixel15 , I zoned out and went overboard with this



    I just wanted to address you increasing the density of the rounded corner geometry. For a clean, controllable curve all you need is three edges, as shown above.

    This way it's extremely easy to tweak the angle of each curve.  Simply move one single edge up or down:



    It's also extremely easy to change the profile of the entire curve, make it sharper, etc.

    Below is the cage model for the complete mesh, without modifiers. I manually remove the edge created by the symmetry modifier for the rightmost edge (you can see in the above wireframe images that there's no centerline running through the rounded corner.




    Modifier stack:
    • TurboSmooth
    • Quad Chamfer
    • Radial Symmetry
    • Symmetry (vertical)
    • Symmetry (the special case one, this is hidden until I need to mirror some manual work)

    Cage without Quad Chamfer and Turbosmooth:


    This is probably the best and easiest expl. anybody ever got. It's so incredible powerful! Thank you once again Wise one! 
  • ajr2764
    Offline / Send Message
    ajr2764 polycounter lvl 10

    Perna advised to check out this thread. I had a little pinch issue on a mesh in another thread. I  did a paint over on my image since im not home. So I think I need to use more edges to begin with so those extra edges can also be used as support loops. Also make sure to check the edge spacing. I originally created this flat, cut in the edges, cloned and bent the segments to get the shape.

  • HAWK12HT
    Offline / Send Message
    HAWK12HT polycounter lvl 9
    Hi all, Ok so I may get a lot of flak for this but one must seek help from the polycount council and @perna .
    Right I am using spline > outline > extrude > chamfer workflow and came across an issue of maintaining width on an angled surface due to outline parameter in edit spline. I know I can do old school poly modelling (grey plane) also max is not cad tool but would like to know if there is a way I can approach this in faster way while keeping equal width on an angled surface. 


  • ajr2764
    Offline / Send Message
    ajr2764 polycounter lvl 10
    I fixed up the topology and looks like I'm getting a good result now.

  • PeterBroof
    Guys, how would you model large, continuous, smooth shapes like this kayak in 3ds max? I considered polygonal modeling with turbosmooth, but after adding loops it quickly becomes a mess to adjust size here and there, because it's one shape which cannot be broken in parts. I started modeling it with curves and then surface, but it's really clunky in 3ds max. Is there a better approach?

  • Hikabuzy
    Offline / Send Message
    Hikabuzy vertex
    Hi :)

    Does anybody have a solution about that weirdness on the top of my sphere.

    Thankx a lot :)
  • wirrexx
    Offline / Send Message
    wirrexx polycounter
    Hikabuzy said:
    Hi :)

    Does anybody have a solution about that weirdness on the top of my sphere.

    Thankx a lot :)
    check back on this forum my frriend, there's alot about it!
  • Makkon
    Offline / Send Message
    Makkon interpolator
    @Hikabuzy
    I understand that this stuff is hard to learn. If it helps, I have a pinterest board on hard surface topology.
    https://www.pinterest.com/Makkon06/hard-surface-topology/
    If you get some time, I'd suggest going through it and recreating some of the shapes in there. Thank you for making the effort! It can take a lot of tries before things start to click.

    Otherwise, I would suggest trying to have more uniform topology, in this case more subdivisions for the cylinder, making room for intersections to smooth better. Good luck.

  • HAWK12HT
    Offline / Send Message
    HAWK12HT polycounter lvl 9
    Bump 
    uh little help fellas on my post above
  • Hikabuzy
    Offline / Send Message
    Hikabuzy vertex
    Thanx a lot guys, next time im gonna put more effort on it and  check it before :/

    ps: sorry for my bad english. Its not my mother tongue

  • gfelton
    Offline / Send Message
    gfelton polycounter lvl 6
    perna said:

    If I were to work more with splines I'd not hesitate to purchase Polyline Pro by @miauu.

    You always seem to know the best plugins/scripts for max, which ones would you recommend that all max users should have?
  • HAWK12HT
    Offline / Send Message
    HAWK12HT polycounter lvl 9
    @perna thanks for script link. Yup my bad I made it complex! anyways I resolved it.


  • gfelton
    Offline / Send Message
    gfelton polycounter lvl 6
    perna said:
    -snip-
    These are all fantastic man, thanks a bunch! :)
  • advanced
    Offline / Send Message
    advanced null
    Hi guyz,
    Im bothering with this simple topology... and cant find out how to make this object with perfect topology... some help?
    Im thinking at the end chamfer edges and apply turbosmooth


    try from blender


    made something but still think its not good...?

  • LaurentiuN
    Offline / Send Message
    LaurentiuN interpolator
    @advanced looks good mate. I made one from cylinder with 20 sides still smooth pretty ok.

  • advanced
    Offline / Send Message
    advanced null
    ^^Thanks guyz is helping me. i think i got it
  • Filip5
    Offline / Send Message
    Filip5 polycounter lvl 6
    Hey guys, I am struggling wall section. Especially the arch part. Now I did that arch using boolean and extruding the edges afterwards. However, I ended up with some loose vertices which I am unable to weld. It worked fine until I created that arch. Upon dividing mesh in Zbrush all goes wrong.

     
  • Filip5
    Offline / Send Message
    Filip5 polycounter lvl 6
    @perna I tell you, even target weld didn't work. There is something odd about modeling arches and I have no idea how to do them the right way.
  • Filip5
    Offline / Send Message
    Filip5 polycounter lvl 6
    @perna Here you go 

    (for some reason obj can't be uploaded either)
  • Filip5
    Offline / Send Message
    Filip5 polycounter lvl 6
    @perna Do you also offer possibility of confession ? Anyway, I ll try to remodel and do what you suggested, altough I have no idea what modifiers you used there.
  • musashidan
    Offline / Send Message
    musashidan high dynamic range
    Browsing this thread now and again, one thing that sticks out is the unnecessary amount of geo used by the posters with sub-d problems.

    The sub-d cage or base mesh is best modeled as a very low (as little as is needed to derive the basic form) density mesh. The subdivision algorithm does the rest. Look at the last 2 examples given by @perna . This is all that's required. This is a fundamental guiding principle of sub-d. Only add geo IF it is needed. Use existing geo where possible and IF you can't get the forms with the geo you have, THEN add more.


  • Revel
    Offline / Send Message
    Revel interpolator
    And the misconception of 'all must quad to get a smooth sub-d mesh' also a problem that sometimes make people frustrated cus it's just impossible to get all quad sometimes and really not that important rules to must-follow, and often requires you to add unnecessary edges that harder to control.

    The general idea of quad is just the evenly spread vertex location on the mesh, which I believed already mentioned by @perna thousands times here, the importance of vertex/ edges distribution.
  • triton
    Offline / Send Message
    triton polycounter lvl 4
    Hi guys,
    What is the best way of connecting all the faces together? if I Bridge now I still have to connect all the other side of the edges. I want to make it grid squares.


  • NoRank
    Offline / Send Message
    NoRank polycounter lvl 3
    I think that the only way of doing that is by using a script like quad cap or something like that.
  • supaclueless
    Offline / Send Message
    supaclueless polycounter lvl 10
    If equadistance (or even approx., just makes it not 100% "square"), just loop each corner edges for each shell, marquee deselect edges on corner, bridge.
  • triton
    Offline / Send Message
    triton polycounter lvl 4
    Thank you guys, you gave me inspiration :)
    I did bridge two edge sides and then I did connect on the same amount of subdivision and then I merged the vertices. That's all.
     

  • Neox
    Offline / Send Message
    Neox quad damage
    now the real question would be, why does your mesh have this density at that stage? wouldnt it be simpler to model with the minimum amount of faces now and subdivide later?
  • triton
    Offline / Send Message
    triton polycounter lvl 4
    Neox said:
    now the real question would be, why does your mesh have this density at that stage? wouldnt it be simpler to model with the minimum amount of faces now and subdivide later?
    Thank you for your comment.
    Yes you are right it's really dense but it's only a prototype and not the final model, I needed to be very precise to model a shape so later I can mont a certain shapes on top, so basically it's only a base and will be removed later :)
  • OBlastradiusO
    Offline / Send Message
    OBlastradiusO polycounter lvl 11
    I'm trying to get use to using quad chamfer with my hard surface workflow. Has anyone had any success in using this method with just pro boolean objects without quads?
  • Neox
    Offline / Send Message
    Neox quad damage
    nope, the way quadchamfer works you will always need some sort of clean topology with enough support structure to guide the chamfers. i guess what you are looking for would be more of the face inset script
  • OBlastradiusO
    Offline / Send Message
    OBlastradiusO polycounter lvl 11
    Got it. Thanks dude
  • PetSto
    Offline / Send Message
    PetSto polycounter lvl 4
    Hi, I need help , how to create best subd topology on cube corner with nice beveled edges, as you can see on the image below. I try something, but I am not happy with result. I need some advice, step by step guide how to do right way. Thank you.

  • Neox
    Offline / Send Message
    Neox quad damage
    i'd say, follow your own overpaint better :)
  • PetSto
    Offline / Send Message
    PetSto polycounter lvl 4
    perna said:
    @PetSto , in terms of just topology, below are some standard approaches. The shape construction for this mesh is non-trivial though, if you want it mathematically perfect. The sphere section of the corner fillet has to resolve smoothly into the edge fillet. Would be interesting to see how people would approach that.

    Thank you Perna, I think your middle topology is the best, has nice transition in corner, no pinching etc. But challenge will be how to achieve this, because I don't know where to start.
  • wirrexx
    Offline / Send Message
    wirrexx polycounter
    Started with a cube. 
    copied it, turbosmoothed the second cube, spherify, scaled it up. 
    used Boolean to intersect. Got that edge, cleaned it up and extruded the "cube" from the corner. 
  • xddong001
  • natec
    Offline / Send Message
    natec polycounter lvl 14


    I gave it a shot too.

    Cube with spherify, then a cylinder placed for reference with symmetry at 45deg, adjust half of cube to match edges, then symmetry, then clean up.

    This way seems pretty adjustable by changing the amount of segments in the cube and sides of cylinders and/or radius and get something closer to what you guys have made.
  • Nam.Nguyen
    Offline / Send Message
    Nam.Nguyen polycounter lvl 6
    another approach that give you more control of how smooth the edges are. Notice that in reference image, the vertical edge is more round than the others. When you cut the corner from a "cube-sphere" you have to cut it evenly for all edge, and after that you have verry little control over  edge smoothness


  • NoRank
    Offline / Send Message
    NoRank polycounter lvl 3
    I did some inset on a box and used some control loops. Then applyied a turbosmooth and deleted the parts that I wouldn't use. Idk, I've seen this quite long ago on some kind of model (I can't remember what model had this kind of corner), I think it works fine since I couldn't notice any pinching when subdividing.

    Yet the topology is different from perna's examples...

    I'm actually interested in how you got that shape.

Sign In or Register to comment.