Hello All.
THANK YOU.
I've spent the last two months (?) learning to model. 0 experience in any visual field. Can't even draw.
I went through this thread start-to-finish several times, followed all the links that weren't dead. Downloaded the tutorials, made sure I understood each question and the posted solutions.
And so I don't have topology problems. (I have them, of course, but then I fix them by copying you).
This thread is a self-contained course in 3D modeling. Thank You.
The attached image is a teapot from reference images. Some bits (e.g. top hinge, slope of the sides) are out of scale, but reproduction was not my goal. The shape presented a number of simple, but non-trivial topology problems.
Notes:
1) I use Blender: no n-gons. Crucially, no pentagon. Need I say more?
2) Bulging around the bottom slot: I know I can fix it with more geometry. If I revisit the model, I will. I was more interested in the curves and joints: the metal body is a single piece. So, I was trying things like "extrude, inset, or join an octagon from/to a curved plane". I found, in this case, additional verts made the question harder to see clearly. The implications for fiddly bits are straightforward: there is not enough geo.
3) I am an absolute beginner. If anyone takes the time to look at my .obj file, feedback would be greatly appreciated. Honestly, I don't know what to ask. Aside from this thread, most of my workflow and topology choices are made up.
Please, do not go easy. I mention my lack of experience because there may be things that you assume I know: basic composition of a mesh, proportion, stuff like that. I probably do not know. Advice, no matter how elementary, will help me.
Always good to hear the forum is helping people; it certainly helped me!
If I might recommend something, perhaps you should engage hard mode and model something complex; I've found a recent Le Mans Prototype I made not long ago was one of the best things I'd done, because it really needs the good topology.
EDIT: Hard mode = Le Mans Prototype
Nightmare mode = one-off Italian cast alloy wheels
Really, you can't use nice control loops to get smooth seams, because the thing itself doesn't have smooth seams. It's up and down and in and out and all over the shop. Normal rims are fun because they're usually a cube welded to the inside (the nuts, etc) and the outside (outer rim of the rim), with some nice even loops to keep it pretty. But nooooooo....
@Brendan
Excellent idea. I don't like cars, but you are dead on, where I was heading in my mind. I made the pot in one piece to start working out continuous lines, in-and-out-and-all-over-the-place.
screw sleep.
beginning an Audi R10, ..... now {click}
@ PEMA
Please don't regret aggressively repeating "more geo"! Your posts are excellent and informative.
Besides, you guys are Magic-Right. I couldn't figure out how to explain that what's wrong my .obj it is that I still overused polys.
You just explained it.
"More Geo" as {i think} you, EQ, Johnny, Pedro use it:
The more I think this way, the more quickly I arrive at a cleaner mesh.
When I'm stuck, I begin again, and work out the proper base geometry. If my mesh is cluttered, it doesn't matter how many verts there are, I don't have enough where it counts. I always get a cleaner mesh with fewer polys than when I try to fix the problem one vert at a time.
In less time.
It is impossible to simplify a mesh that doesn't support the tension. First thing first.
It's like magic. I use drastically fewer polygons precisely by working through the procedures you, EQ, Johnny, Pedro, describe.
You're always clear. Maybe we don't always carefully...
Hello everyone! Thanks a lot, I found very useful info in this forum and I'm very glad to join you in this discussion.
I hope I'm not much OT here. I'm having some trouble with bevel command in maya. The 1 st image: base mesh and the edges to bevel. 2nd:settings used. 3rd: a strange highlighted polygon (only one) as a result of bevel. 4: after deleting that ngon I've got a hole. Should it works in this mood? Is there something I did wrong? Should I use BPT, or other plugins?(I thought It have better tools to work with)
Yeah, it's sooo lame...
How would you approach a complex object such as this???
I wouldn't even know where to start with this? Lots of indented screws and such on complex intersecting surfaces...any thoughts?
start by breaking the thing into the bits that it is in real life - it's not organic or smooth or continuous at the joins, so you can get away with this.
Now you've got smaller, simpler bits, block it out, figure out where your main edges are. Then once you've worked out how to get them defined nicely, then you go onto the screws and such. For the most part they look like cylinders that join onto the main pieces, keep it simple and make sure you don't let any loose loops from the screw bits mess up the main part of each piece.
_gelo, its just the way maya handles bevel set at 2. For a more curved bevel set it at 4 and it'll work without creating extra geo. I don't know about 3 actually hah.
So I've been having a small issue with a subtle shadow showing up and I know it's from the tension being bad and wondering if anybody would know the solution to this. Also if anybody knows a good way to handle the same shape but where the edge of the inset cut would have a more defined chamfer edge. Thanks in advance. For some reason this one has been messing with me.
So I've been having a small issue with a subtle shadow showing up and I know it's from the tension being bad and wondering if anybody would know the solution to this. Also if anybody knows a good way to handle the same shape but where the edge of the inset cut would have a more defined chamfer edge. Thanks in advance. For some reason this one has been messing with me.
A. The solution is more geo
B. You're being pretty OCD here, as I can not see any issues with this mesh in your screenshot, and certainly after you've done bakes/textures/etc there is no way it would show up.
C. For a more defined bevel, simply model a more defined bevel, and then add in some extra supporting loops to hold the shape.
I am currently modeling a hairdryer. I am trying to model objects found around my house, as the one thing holding me back most of the time is lack of refs! This is great modeling practice as you can concentrate on modeling techniques alone, with the object in your hands.
However, im stumped on how to create the grill part at the back. Its basically loads of holes on a circular surface!?
If you're going to bake it to a normal to use on a low poly model, I'd leave that part as a simple curved surface, and add the holes in photoshop. Otherwise, just... make loads of circles! And then with FFD3x3x3 pull the center to make the curve, and there you go.
This is high poly modeling practice so I need to model them in. If the pattern was on a flat surface it would be simple, but the plate itself is a cylinder...
Model it flat, then FFD in max, or soft selection in any other app.
Yeah its not the curve im having trouble with..Its placing holes evenly while maintaining a circular form??
EDIT:
This was just a quick test but seems to turbosmooth ok! I basically made a huge plane with lots of connections, then inset by polygon, then extruded in and deleted the face. Created a cylinder with alot of sides and used 'intersection' booleon. This creates an extremelly messy mesh at the edge in the example but If I spent time aligning it, then it could hopfully turn out better!
The holes are not in a circular pattern, so just model them as they are(as a square) stick the grid part into the cylinder part, and delete the bits that clip outside the cylinder.
For greater control than the FFD, you can also use skin-wrap. Create a circular plane that matches the flat version, with several circular edgeloops, then apply a skin wrap to the high with that as the target, and then pull the skinwrap target into the desired position.
Skinwrap, Bend, and FFD are probably the most useful tools for creating complex shapes like that.
e: given that this is a circle, you can also model the grill flat, and then select the middlemost vert and use soft selection in Max to adjust the curve range of the falloff to pull the middle out to the desired location. I think this is the most awkward solution, however.
@TelekenticFrog:
Hehehe I had a similar TOTALLY OCD problem with the top of a ceramic kitchen pot. Simple-seeming inset drove me up the wall. I redid it 7-8 times over two days and came to the same conclusion as EQ.
Specifically, that if I can identify a real world shape as "inset", then insetting and controlling the sharpenss of the edge from the inside will look exactly right.
Trust your choice of tools.
Fiddling with the exterior edge flow made shading issues worse. I knew what the problem was, but I wanted to see it and prove it to myself. My conclusion was:
I don't want another loop outside the inset unless I'm prepared to add a lot more geometry to support it and keep the surface even. Right? You might be prepared to do that.
Meanwhile, the inset is concave. On which side can I tighten up (sharpen the edge) without distorting the object? The side that's going that way already.
(I am practicing pretending I know what I am doing. Pretend. Pretend)
I need to make a mouth shape for this particular object.
After a couple of hour, this make me crazy, do you have an idea about a nice meshflow to keep the curvature of the object ?
Hello,
please give me your opinion about this mesh and how to make it better especially for sculpting.
It's the base for a column.
If you want, here's my obj version: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=C327XGAE
Thanks.
Hello,
please give me your opinion about this mesh and how to make it better especially for sculpting.
It's the base for a column.
If you want, here's my obj version: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=C327XGAE
Thanks.
You want to make the topology much more uniform across the whole mesh. Try not to have long quads and use the smallest detail as the guide for the resolution of your entire mesh. (this stops pinching and stretching on the corners, where support loops are)
Also, subdividing the mesh to a higher level before importing it into your sculpting application, can often result in a higher over all subdivision level later.
You want to make the topology much more uniform across the whole mesh. Try not to have long quads and use the smallest detail as the guide for the resolution of your entire mesh. (this stops pinching and stretching on the corners, where support loops are)
Also, subdividing the mesh to a higher level before importing it into your sculpting application, can often result in a higher over all subdivision level later.
Hi metalliandy,
I knew something about density for sculpting, but your tip "more uniform topology" forced me to recreate the mesh.
I think to be more worried about my modeling approach, if it's a good one (no triangles, good loops...), this is why I asked here your opinion.
Anyway this is the new version (base and with cuts), it has no uniform density, tell me what you think.
P.S. Just to be clear: have you suggested to subdivide the mesh one more time just before exporting, I suppose, to have a lighter subdiv history later?
When i said use the smallest detail as the guide for the resolution of your entire mesh, i meant work out what size your support loops are and then use one of the corner quads as the size guide for the rest of the mesh. All the other quads should be as close as possible to the smallest quad in your mesh.
The mesh in your second picture is much better and i dont think you will have any real problems using it
You want to make sure that the new subdivisions on round edges match the curve of the rest of the edge, so you dont get a stepped look. Swiftloop can do this if you press shirt iirc.
Hey all, I've been having issues modeling the hull of this ship. I have the rear portion roughed out, but I'm not sure whether to just extrude those border edges and make them the hull or build it separately and try to get it to match up. I'm also noticing banding across the hull, but can't tell if it's strictly horizontal or if it curves vertically at all. Any help would be much appreciated.
Cross-posting from a thread I made on the p&r forum:
Alright, I'm having a problem with one of the spots. Here's the original shape:
WHen I turn turbosmooth on, it looks like this:
Pretty obvious results, right?. Now, I want that slope to have less of a curve. I basically selected the edges and added some extra edges to get the sharp border:
But as you could expect, I got some ugly results on the curved surface:
Now, I know the reason. But I tried moving the edges more to the center and adapt them to the curve, and all I got was some ugly reflections somewhere else.
I also tried adding an extra edge in the center and move it to the curve edge when smoothed. It looked like this:
Which looks already better, but I still have those edges. Do you guys think it's alright to keep adding extra edges in that portion of the surface and make the curve?
Which looks already better, but I still have those edges. Do you guys think it's alright to keep adding extra edges in that portion of the surface and make the curve?
you might want to try something like this:
this will you give you (most likely) some pinching on that top edge, but depending on what it is that thing, perhaps you can get away with it.
Hey! Thanks linkov. On my other thread someone already suggested something similar. While it creates some pinching, I think I might be able to get away with it for now.
Sorry for no explaining what the model is. It's this one:
There's a hexagonal ring at the bottom of the piece above the moose/deer/etc. Pump that out, then isolate a sixth of it. Duplicate Special, etc so you only edit one bit and the others update nicely.
Extrude up and give it a tiny bit of depth. Then grab a corner face and from the bottom do the curly bit, just rotating and extruding bits as you go. Maybe make a cylinder with a bunch of edge caps or a spiral as guidance if you need.
Then grab a face from said spirally curly bit, and extrude that up to the top. Add edge loops to give it the curve.
Then grab some edges and extrude them out to make the broad(relatively) flat-ish bits between the curly bits. Shouldn't need many verts if you're planning to subdivide it at the end.
One way is to start with a hemisphere and move alternating border verts in Z. Then you can edit the mesh as needed for the details. The fluted pieces can be started by extracting a spline from some of the edges of the mesh.
My example is pretty simple, so you may need 'moar geo' for yours.
Originally posted by blakestone on autodesk forums, figured someone here might find this helpful as well. Every method is pretty solid with no weird edge loop hacks, or bad geo, well minus the tri's chamfer can throw in sometimes.
You can fix that really easily if you just move the loop cryrid highlighted and the next one in the curve upwards so that they're planar on the z axis. If you want to keep that exact shape you need to add more geometry. Here's a pic. The highlighted green area is completely flat hence no pinching there.
Replies
THANK YOU.
I've spent the last two months (?) learning to model. 0 experience in any visual field. Can't even draw.
I went through this thread start-to-finish several times, followed all the links that weren't dead. Downloaded the tutorials, made sure I understood each question and the posted solutions.
And so I don't have topology problems. (I have them, of course, but then I fix them by copying you).
This thread is a self-contained course in 3D modeling. Thank You.
The attached image is a teapot from reference images. Some bits (e.g. top hinge, slope of the sides) are out of scale, but reproduction was not my goal. The shape presented a number of simple, but non-trivial topology problems.
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
http://www.mediafire.com/file/b3uaemkincqf0vo/Sorapot.obj
Notes:
1) I use Blender: no n-gons. Crucially, no pentagon. Need I say more?
2) Bulging around the bottom slot: I know I can fix it with more geometry. If I revisit the model, I will. I was more interested in the curves and joints: the metal body is a single piece. So, I was trying things like "extrude, inset, or join an octagon from/to a curved plane". I found, in this case, additional verts made the question harder to see clearly. The implications for fiddly bits are straightforward: there is not enough geo.
3) I am an absolute beginner. If anyone takes the time to look at my .obj file, feedback would be greatly appreciated. Honestly, I don't know what to ask. Aside from this thread, most of my workflow and topology choices are made up.
Please, do not go easy. I mention my lack of experience because there may be things that you assume I know: basic composition of a mesh, proportion, stuff like that. I probably do not know. Advice, no matter how elementary, will help me.
Thank you again.
If I might recommend something, perhaps you should engage hard mode and model something complex; I've found a recent Le Mans Prototype I made not long ago was one of the best things I'd done, because it really needs the good topology.
EDIT: Hard mode = Le Mans Prototype
Nightmare mode = one-off Italian cast alloy wheels
Really, you can't use nice control loops to get smooth seams, because the thing itself doesn't have smooth seams. It's up and down and in and out and all over the shop. Normal rims are fun because they're usually a cube welded to the inside (the nuts, etc) and the outside (outer rim of the rim), with some nice even loops to keep it pretty. But nooooooo....
Excellent idea. I don't like cars, but you are dead on, where I was heading in my mind. I made the pot in one piece to start working out continuous lines, in-and-out-and-all-over-the-place.
screw sleep.
beginning an Audi R10, ..... now {click}
@ PEMA
Please don't regret aggressively repeating "more geo"! Your posts are excellent and informative.
Besides, you guys are Magic-Right. I couldn't figure out how to explain that what's wrong my .obj it is that I still overused polys.
You just explained it.
"More Geo" as {i think} you, EQ, Johnny, Pedro use it:
The more I think this way, the more quickly I arrive at a cleaner mesh.
When I'm stuck, I begin again, and work out the proper base geometry. If my mesh is cluttered, it doesn't matter how many verts there are, I don't have enough where it counts. I always get a cleaner mesh with fewer polys than when I try to fix the problem one vert at a time.
In less time.
It is impossible to simplify a mesh that doesn't support the tension. First thing first.
It's like magic. I use drastically fewer polygons precisely by working through the procedures you, EQ, Johnny, Pedro, describe.
You're always clear. Maybe we don't always carefully...
{Edited for concision}
I wouldn't even know where to start with this? Lots of indented screws and such on complex intersecting surfaces...any thoughts?
I hope I'm not much OT here. I'm having some trouble with bevel command in maya. The 1 st image: base mesh and the edges to bevel. 2nd:settings used. 3rd: a strange highlighted polygon (only one) as a result of bevel. 4: after deleting that ngon I've got a hole. Should it works in this mood? Is there something I did wrong? Should I use BPT, or other plugins?(I thought It have better tools to work with)
Yeah, it's sooo lame...
start by breaking the thing into the bits that it is in real life - it's not organic or smooth or continuous at the joins, so you can get away with this.
Now you've got smaller, simpler bits, block it out, figure out where your main edges are. Then once you've worked out how to get them defined nicely, then you go onto the screws and such. For the most part they look like cylinders that join onto the main pieces, keep it simple and make sure you don't let any loose loops from the screw bits mess up the main part of each piece.
A. The solution is more geo
B. You're being pretty OCD here, as I can not see any issues with this mesh in your screenshot, and certainly after you've done bakes/textures/etc there is no way it would show up.
C. For a more defined bevel, simply model a more defined bevel, and then add in some extra supporting loops to hold the shape.
I am currently modeling a hairdryer. I am trying to model objects found around my house, as the one thing holding me back most of the time is lack of refs! This is great modeling practice as you can concentrate on modeling techniques alone, with the object in your hands.
However, im stumped on how to create the grill part at the back. Its basically loads of holes on a circular surface!?
Any ideas!??
???
Yeah its not the curve im having trouble with..Its placing holes evenly while maintaining a circular form??
EDIT:
This was just a quick test but seems to turbosmooth ok! I basically made a huge plane with lots of connections, then inset by polygon, then extruded in and deleted the face. Created a cylinder with alot of sides and used 'intersection' booleon. This creates an extremelly messy mesh at the edge in the example but If I spent time aligning it, then it could hopfully turn out better!
wip:
Skinwrap, Bend, and FFD are probably the most useful tools for creating complex shapes like that.
e: given that this is a circle, you can also model the grill flat, and then select the middlemost vert and use soft selection in Max to adjust the curve range of the falloff to pull the middle out to the desired location. I think this is the most awkward solution, however.
Hehehe I had a similar TOTALLY OCD problem with the top of a ceramic kitchen pot. Simple-seeming inset drove me up the wall. I redid it 7-8 times over two days and came to the same conclusion as EQ.
Specifically, that if I can identify a real world shape as "inset", then insetting and controlling the sharpenss of the edge from the inside will look exactly right.
Trust your choice of tools.
Fiddling with the exterior edge flow made shading issues worse. I knew what the problem was, but I wanted to see it and prove it to myself. My conclusion was:
I don't want another loop outside the inset unless I'm prepared to add a lot more geometry to support it and keep the surface even. Right? You might be prepared to do that.
Meanwhile, the inset is concave. On which side can I tighten up (sharpen the edge) without distorting the object? The side that's going that way already.
(I am practicing pretending I know what I am doing. Pretend. Pretend)
I need to make a mouth shape for this particular object.
After a couple of hour, this make me crazy, do you have an idea about a nice meshflow to keep the curvature of the object ?
please give me your opinion about this mesh and how to make it better especially for sculpting.
It's the base for a column.
If you want, here's my obj version: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=C327XGAE
Thanks.
Also, subdividing the mesh to a higher level before importing it into your sculpting application, can often result in a higher over all subdivision level later.
Hi metalliandy,
I knew something about density for sculpting, but your tip "more uniform topology" forced me to recreate the mesh.
I think to be more worried about my modeling approach, if it's a good one (no triangles, good loops...), this is why I asked here your opinion.
Anyway this is the new version (base and with cuts), it has no uniform density, tell me what you think.
P.S. Just to be clear: have you suggested to subdivide the mesh one more time just before exporting, I suppose, to have a lighter subdiv history later?
The mesh in your second picture is much better and i dont think you will have any real problems using it
You want to make sure that the new subdivisions on round edges match the curve of the rest of the edge, so you dont get a stepped look. Swiftloop can do this if you press shirt iirc.
I created the image for simplicity's sake, however this was originally posted here http://designreform.net/2009/04/3ds-max-2010-topology-tools-on-an-edit-poly-modifier/
Alright, I'm having a problem with one of the spots. Here's the original shape:
WHen I turn turbosmooth on, it looks like this:
Pretty obvious results, right?. Now, I want that slope to have less of a curve. I basically selected the edges and added some extra edges to get the sharp border:
But as you could expect, I got some ugly results on the curved surface:
Now, I know the reason. But I tried moving the edges more to the center and adapt them to the curve, and all I got was some ugly reflections somewhere else.
I also tried adding an extra edge in the center and move it to the curve edge when smoothed. It looked like this:
Which looks already better, but I still have those edges. Do you guys think it's alright to keep adding extra edges in that portion of the surface and make the curve?
you might want to try something like this:
this will you give you (most likely) some pinching on that top edge, but depending on what it is that thing, perhaps you can get away with it.
Hey! Thanks linkov. On my other thread someone already suggested something similar. While it creates some pinching, I think I might be able to get away with it for now.
Sorry for no explaining what the model is. It's this one:
[ame]
have you got some tips for modeling this chair?
Thank you
Any advice on how to model this area? Thanks in advance!
There's a hexagonal ring at the bottom of the piece above the moose/deer/etc. Pump that out, then isolate a sixth of it. Duplicate Special, etc so you only edit one bit and the others update nicely.
Extrude up and give it a tiny bit of depth. Then grab a corner face and from the bottom do the curly bit, just rotating and extruding bits as you go. Maybe make a cylinder with a bunch of edge caps or a spiral as guidance if you need.
Then grab a face from said spirally curly bit, and extrude that up to the top. Add edge loops to give it the curve.
Then grab some edges and extrude them out to make the broad(relatively) flat-ish bits between the curly bits. Shouldn't need many verts if you're planning to subdivide it at the end.
Seems pretty straight forward, just a box with some cuts and extrusions and basic modeling... Is there something specific you're having trouble with?
One way is to start with a hemisphere and move alternating border verts in Z. Then you can edit the mesh as needed for the details. The fluted pieces can be started by extracting a spline from some of the edges of the mesh.
My example is pretty simple, so you may need 'moar geo' for yours.
I'm having trouble with this
How can I fix it?
@Fethry
Thank you for helps, but applying your solutions problems still remains.
Anyway, i think I found the way...
This is the cleanest solution i found even if there is still a little issue
What do you think about it?
Is it a good solution?
it still doesn't works
But else, the solution is : add more geo.
Yeah honestly, I think you're being a bit nuts about this now, what you have above is perfectly fine.