I think the main problem is board members/share-holders/publishers and other higher-ups that don't know exactly how much work goes into making a game. They put pressure on the development companies to ship by a certain deadline, the higher-ups at said companies put pressure on the employees and if that means 11 hour work days for months at a time so be it as long as the deadline gets met.
The ironic part is that the end product would likely be a lot better. I can only point to this TV Tropes entry for proof.
Just a question. The EA wives did this before the rockstar wives. Did EA ever change?
Seemed like it, I had to pre-approve all overtime with my manager. I was even turned down a few times "don't come in on Saturday, we'll add an extra day to your task next week".
What a sad situation. It reminds me of working in advertising as a designer 10 years ago. Best of luck to the employees and their families.
This is really cries out for an old-style union. Not the kind that are multibillion dollar lobbies in Washington, but something to actually protect and standardize workers rights in an industry. All the laws and regulations are in place (at least in the US, and most other post industrial countries), what's missing is oversight. As the game industry makes up such a small percentage of GDP, you can't expect the government to go doorknocking on every game studio. An organization specifically targeting QoL issues (ie work hours, overtime, leave, etc) is exactly what unions were created for. While there will certainly be holdouts from studios in hiring union folk, if most of the senior talent signs on it would be hard to hire the best without agreeing to terms. Unions are not so far removed from the gaming industry: illustrators, film and theater professionals and graphic designers all have unions in some form.
Until industry employees as a whole decide to take control and set standards for working conditions, the corporate moneymen who are not working 60-80 hours a week will continue to dictate what's 'necessary and acceptable'. Policing the QoL situations for industry workers shouldn't be like policing sweatshop conditions in a myriad of third world countries.
I have definately seen people stand up and refuse to do endless crunch, and then get fired. You would need a situation where a bunch of folks stand up at once...i.e. a union type situation. Too bad I don't see any signs of game (or CG) unions forming.
I'm sure this happens, but employees do have power. Firing someone costs a company a lot of money, both in the employee insurance increases they have to pay, and in the costs associated with finding someone new and training them up. It's not as if you have no leverage at all.
I'm sure this happens, but employees do have power. Firing someone costs a company a lot of money, both in the employee insurance increases they have to pay, and in the costs associated with finding someone new and training them up. It's not as if you have no leverage at all.
that's why you need to be friends with coworkers and get some people together.
I'm sure this happens, but employees do have power. Firing someone costs a company a lot of money, both in the employee insurance increases they have to pay, and in the costs associated with finding someone new and training them up. It's not as if you have no leverage at all.
True, but the problem is the perception that the studio has an endless supply of candidates ready and willing to step up if someone is fired. Sure, the costs and headaches associated with replacing someone are a factor, but weighing up this against your value as an individual is a risky bet if you've got a family to support, or if corporate culture makes you feel guilty or less valuable if you begin to think about this balance.
the endless supply of canditaes ends where training is involved..... noone can afford to loose an expierienced worker who knows all the tools, workflow, etc...
unless there is a really good canditate who can start imediately, which is pretty rare..
You gotta try to get a some people together and say we'll all quit if conditions don't get better. Even 5 employees would be a huge hit to a large company.
I think its the "juniors" who tell themselves "man bring it on... I can totally do this, sounds like a dream working in a studio for 12+ hours a day", and then you actually do it and its like hitting a brick wall.
But is it not expected to work more hours than a "normal" job, its just the nature of the beast is it not... it sucks, but I don't reaallllly think the industry can work any other way until time management (pre-production etc.) becomes the MAIN focus... which from what I hear isn't always the case.
And some mention the industry becoming unionized... I see this as a double edge blade... and really have no clue what the outcome would be.
Exactly Jason, I think its more a junior, fresh mentality. A lack of exposure and the thrill of finally getting into a studio.
Forgot about the epic thing that oxy posted, but that's also a great example. The fact is that mentality really does exist, and even more so than one would probably like to believe.
And some mention the industry becoming unionized... I see this as a double edge blade... and really have no clue what the outcome would be.
The successful demonization of unions is p ridiculous in my opinion. The slipper slope OH NO problems with unions are paltry compared to the actual treatment we get already. It's already hard to get a job as a fresh out of school graduate. It's already hard to negotiate salaries, it's already hard to fire the old time guys who have been there forever. Those are basically the main worries about unions, and we already suffer through them now.
Bring on the negotiating power of the unions. I remember when the Screen Actors Guild (SAG) went on strike for higher percentages of profits on the games they worked on. I was really bitter at the time, thinking they are guaranteed a profit share when all they do is provide voices, and I'm in the trenches the full game working on it, but really I was just jealous they are getting fairly compensated on the product while I get shafted.
Just think, with a proper union, no unpaid overtime, no outsourcing allowed (or you can't use anyone in the union, like SAG works, so unless you're willing to have everything made by cheap outsourced, guaranteeing crappy artwork though out, you have to use all union members), proper profit sharing, a person to complain to when things go wrong (your union rep), no having your name removed from the credit after, etc, etc, etc.
I mean what are people really worried about with a union?
the endless supply of canditaes ends where training is involved..... noone can afford to loose an expierienced worker who knows all the tools, workflow, etc...
unless there is a really good canditate who can start imediately, which is pretty rare..
This is true, BUT
A) it's the kind of thing that HR knows, not your manager, and normally it's the managers who make the firing decision
someone smart enough to know about this long term cost/benefit analysis wouldn't be asking for months of crunch to begin with
So yes, it's stupid to demand extended (which is anything longer than 2 weeks) crunch from your team, and it's stupid to fire someone experienced and already trained because of it. But if you're short-sighted enough for the first, the second is easy to make too.
But if the lead refuses the schedule because well, he simply wasn't informed well enough beforehand of what his team would have to output?
This almost never happens. You get to be lead in a company by being a "team player" which is code for not rocking the boat (even when it's unfair). And most leads don't want to jeopardize their salaries or positions to stand up for their underlings.
Wow, guys. This was a hit for me. Well surely i've heared about the EA wifes and stuff, but I was just shiting bricks about Red Dead Redemption and now this.
I really thought that all the great games are made with tenderness, love and care. And now I see that it's pretty much correct, it's just that it's not the game loving guys who pull the strings, but the money loving. I don't want my love for videogames to be squizeed out of me and I really feel for the guys at San Diego.
And the worst part is I have a problem with taking shit. So I would hardly keep quiet just to keep a job. So I've started drawing myself some not so bright perspectives, like working my ass off to get a job at some civilized country only to get worked 14 hours a day. And then I tell those guys that they've gone too far and get shitcanned just to return to belarus again.%\
So I'm kinda confued wright now and might even have to reconsder some of my dicisions for the near future...
The Lesson to be learned from here I think is not to take shit. Not even consider it an option. You can talk about that all you want, but unless someone starts doing something it's not all that efficient. So the best thing a person can do is set an example.
But!
You have to be absolutely professional about your work. Just be honest and work and really put all you've got in your work. Do your best. Do great. But only during your 8 working day.
If someone will want to fire you just because you refused to work overtime then I suggest you don't want to work with those people. But of course it's always good to have some money saved and always do personal stuff to keep your self marketable. I guess a person who knows he's so good any studio would be glad to accept him won't think twice about leaving a company that mistreats it's employes, so I suggest thats what we all should aim for.
And I suddenly don't feel so good about playing Epsiodes from Liberty City.(the game is great and all, but man...)
This almost never happens. You get to be lead in a company by being a "team player" which is code for not rocking the boat (even when it's unfair). And most leads don't want to jeopardize their salaries or positions to stand up for their underlings.
Sorry, calling bullshit on this one. This may be your personal opinion based on anecdotal evidence but that does not make it the standard.
#3 - if you don't like where you work, GET A NEW JOB
#4 - if your MAN ain't treating you right, it's HIM not his JOB. HE made the choice to stay there and HE made the decision to take it out on you, ROCKSTAR did not force him.
#3 - if you don't like where you work, GET A NEW JOB
#4 - if your MAN ain't treating you right, it's HIM not his JOB. HE made the choice to stay there and HE made the decision to take it out on you, ROCKSTAR did not force him.
HUZZAH
your 1950's black and white view of the world is really just awe inspiring. revolutionary even.
I've been in this type of situation, and I have friends who still are. I love working in the games industry, but when things are so busy that I have to live at the office. It's not worth it anymore. I'd rather have less pay and spend time with my wife and kid.
That's how I feel now. I am done moving to different corners of the country, getting guilt-trips for not working long hours "Just because everyone else is doing it..". Or just dealing with companies in general, other than through email and phone, then checking the bank to make sure they sent the money. I'm making less as a contractor, but I have more time with my family. Very hard to be a father when you only see your kids when they are sleeping.
#4 - if your MAN ain't treating you right, it's HIM not his JOB. HE made the choice to stay there and HE made the decision to take it out on you, ROCKSTAR did not force him.
For some people the fear of not being able to take care of a family outweighs his own personal happiness and health. So they will put up with this stuff a lot more than others. They get in so deep that yes they see money coming in and the bills being paid, but they fail to realize that they are getting sick and so is their family life.
#3 - if you don't like where you work, GET A NEW JOB
#4 - if your MAN ain't treating you right, it's HIM not his JOB. HE made the choice to stay there and HE made the decision to take it out on you, ROCKSTAR did not force him.
HUZZAH
You don't happen to be a Randite by chance? Or are you just trolling? If so, don't you think you could have come up with a better argument?
In my job hunt, on many occasions, I was told to avoid Rockstar. If you treat your employees bad it generally gets around, it sucks for the first timers that don't have the networking connections but that's generally the case with any type of craft: your first gig you get fucked.
oXYnary, actually I'm trying to take the obvious stance: IF YOU DONT LIKE WHERE YOU WORK THEN DONT WORK THERE> PERIOD>
But, I do know this is a serious thing and I AM watching closely and I want to know more about this (cause it's not just rockstar)
I know one thing is sure, When my jobs suck, I LOVE to go home - I don't take it out on my loved ones, I tell them how happy I am to be away from there.
The FACT is simple: No matter how evil a boss is, THESE people decided to stay, it is not Rockstar's fault, it is the fault of the fools who allow themselves to be treated this way...
I don't know what would keep someone there in these conditions unless bragging about their titles is more important than their happiness. EVERYONE has a choice to be disrespected or not.
No, I'm not a troll, boy, I am REASON. there would be NO PROBLEM if those people RESPECTED THEMSELVES and left Rockstar - but they didn't. The fault is their own, regardless of the sympathy I really do feel for them.
edit: and I'm not yelling at you, sorry if it looks that way :P
edit 2: also, if the man cheated, the wife will blame the other woman in most human minds that is what happens and they want to kill the other person, not their own infidel lover. This is like, they are blaming the other woman, not the cheater - I bet if these men had fluff jobs they would STILL be mean at home man. You can't blame your job for how you treat your woman, and she can't blame your job either. Be a man and get a new job if you don't like your work.
2 Rockstar San Diego: I'll take any job you give me, and I'll leave if I don't like it, but I won't go home and take it out on my family, or bring home to work either - don't like it, leave it. Plain and simple and old as dirt. GET A NEW JOB if the job you have is THAT BAD :thumbup:
motivational posters: Necessarily always pompous and immature.
Read my words, not my form. Leave home separate from work - period - problem solved. Don't like work? Endangering home life? Get A New Job...
AM I missing something here because I DO feel rude if it is THAT bad, but I HIGHLY doubt someone has a gun to their heads saying "stay".
In fact, I think it's an employee security issue "If I leave rockstar, I won't BE a rockstar!" You can't force a company to run differently, you can, however, find a new job...
WHY do people work for big names anymore anyway? Hello, I'm the internet. I bypass ALL the major expenses of big studios and get rid of all the middle men. Why do people still think it's hard to be in game dev? This is not the music industry. All it takes it for us to join together and make communities and such - but no, it's all misused, and studio people still think their poop doesn't stink, so we all want to be them.
Not I says me. I am my own boss. I recommend it. You don't get to use your boss as an excuse when you're mad, but hey, it beats being mad at a boss.
Mike has pretty much come out that overtime is expected and he thinks its justified with the pay epic workers receive.
There you go... Obviously the Epic guys will probably not be able to comment on this one, but I'd imagine they're properly compensated.
I'm sure the Rockstar guys' wives would also be more forgiving if a year or two under these conditions would also result in a properly loaded bank account. Then they can decide about taking a few months off the job, or finding a new job that doesn't require overtime.
The problems come when you do crunch and the game isn't a success so there's no profit to share. Which is quite common nowadays, isn't it, with all the studios closed and downsizing. So a lot of companies nowadays do have serious leverage over their employees.
Then again, is Rockstar that close to the edge? I know GTA4 hasn't sold as well as the previous games, but it should still be making quite the money...
oXYnary, actually I'm trying to take the obvious stance: IF YOU DONT LIKE WHERE YOU WORK THEN DONT WORK THERE> PERIOD>
But, I do know this is a serious thing and I AM watching closely and I want to know more about this (cause it's not just rockstar)
I know one thing is sure, When my jobs suck, I LOVE to go home - I don't take it out on my loved ones, I tell them how happy I am to be away from there.
The FACT is simple: No matter how evil a boss is, THESE people decided to stay, it is not Rockstar's fault, it is the fault of the fools who allow themselves to be treated this way...
I don't know what would keep someone there in these conditions unless bragging about their titles is more important than their happiness. EVERYONE has a choice to be disrespected or not.
No, I'm not a troll, boy, I am REASON. there would be NO PROBLEM if those people RESPECTED THEMSELVES and left Rockstar - but they didn't. The fault is their own, regardless of the sympathy I really do feel for them.
edit: and I'm not yelling at you, sorry if it looks that way :P
edit 2: also, if the man cheated, the wife will blame the other woman in most human minds that is what happens and they want to kill the other person, not their own infidel lover. This is like, they are blaming the other woman, not the cheater - I bet if these men had fluff jobs they would STILL be mean at home man. You can't blame your job for how you treat your woman, and she can't blame your job either. Be a man and get a new job if you don't like your work.
2 Rockstar San Diego: I'll take any job you give me :thumbup:
Ok, I understand your position better. What I think though is you have this dichotomy of a separation between work and play. Psychologically, this doesn't work from all I have read.
You can claim about not taking it out (or more, not being there for your family or friends and seeing the exhaustion of your spouse is more the complaint these women have) if you were in such a position. Unfortunately, I have to call shenanigans or your own lack of experiencing long hours and how it effects your outlook. Ever read up on the studies that relate the lack of sleep to being drunk?
Stress causes you to get sleep and aggression problems. How can you possibly not take that home? It's not like you can get your blood changed at the office whenever you leave, to get rid of the adrenaline and stuff.
Once again I know that I really don't have a place in this argument since I'm not "in." However I just wanted to mention one thing I noticed, which is the 'shipped titles' experiential requirement that so many if not all companies desire over everything else. Of course if you're shittonnes awesome then you may get hired regardless, but otherwise they want to know how many games you've shipped. When does crunch usually occur? Near the end of a project when everyone scrambles to make a poorly planned development shipping ready.
Stick with it and you perpetuate this 'crunch is good' mentality. Stand up and you will unlikely to be heard in the chaos. If you are fired or quit about these injustices you would be denying yourself that extra shipped title. If you live through it and then decide to kick up a stink you will likely get fired since they now have the time and money to replace you and the last crunch was so 'successful.' This latter option may be of worth however if the majority of the entire team go down with you.
The reason I highlight this goes back to one of the staples of this thread and even in part applies to me. The fresh grads that everyone says are so ready to do crunch are probably not just naive and arrogant they are probably also settling for it just for a shipped title. I am sure that if I got to crunch and collapsed and left/got fired for my life then getting back in may be as hard as it is for me now, since the big question on new employers lips will be, "Why did you leave then?"
forgiving if a year or two under these conditions would also result in a properly loaded bank account. Then they can decide about taking a few months off the job, or finding a new job that doesn't require overtime.
There is a tradeoff. To have a relationship you actually need to spend time with one another and/or with the kids. Unless the relationship was so meaningless to begin with, that the amount of money makes up for the lack of the other person. In that case, why not just divorce/separate?
Balance. Plus, Mike seems unaware or ignores the studies already done in the 20th century showing diminishing returns past 8 hours.
I too have a problem accepting every American's responsibility to separate work from play.
When work was hurting my life, I became my own boss, because it was the only answer I had. I'm not the genius life coach or anything, and I DO feel for these people, but someone should have told them they have a choice - because they do.
If I had one wish right now my wish for the moment would be that I could interface with these gentlemen and ladies from San Diego and talk them into taking their talents online.
What I don't get is people work for this companies that crunch and then fire a whole bunch of people after the title ships (and right before the holiday season) (Cough cough EA)
To be fair, it IS better to cut the people who are done working than it is to cut those still finishing up - I'm sure some of the people found jobs right away, and others were probably transplanted at that to get other titles done. We don't see it all to make a judgment, we'd have to find someone well connected in the circles of pandemic for example to know what happened after the closing. But yea, cutting people who are done work are people who are done work - if you don't have work for them anymore, you just don't - you definitely wouldn't want to cut a team who isn't done yet, especially when their work costs millions to accomplish.
Stress causes you to get sleep and aggression problems. How can you possibly not take that home? It's not like you can get your blood changed at the office whenever you leave, to get rid of the adrenaline and stuff.
Yes, that is true. When you see that happening in your life, be wise enough to *not work in such environments*. You don't force that company to change, you change what is in your OWN life that is the problem. And if the problem is the job, get-a-new-one.
For some reason, people are under the false impression that the stress from work going home is anyone's fault but the employee's. The employee has the choice to Quit and move on, and when they don't they CHOOSE to be upset and that's where they are wrong.
If you were forced placement at a job, that's different. But NO ONE is forced placement in the United States. You choose where you work, and you choose to put up with that work place. Not anyone's fault but their own.
A year or two under such conditions in a solid relationship should be tolerated IMHO. Obviously not in conditions like having to deal with newborn kids alone; but young couples are usually aware of the difficulties of building their own future and the sacrifices it might involve. Not everyone can rely on parents to provide financial help.
As for diminishing returns, well, Gears 2 looks damn good and was done in about 2 years, so maybe they have different data...
I've also gone through some s**t, and yes there were days when efficiency was busted, but there were others where we've managed to get a lot of stuff done. But we were willing to do that, because it takes more then 9-5 to get respect and trust for a studio in my country (although after all these years we still have to prove ourselves again and again... but I digress).
I don't need to work under anyone who thinks more hours automatically equals greater production. Sick, stressed out and unhappy artists are usually not very productive. This isn't widgets we're making after all.
We should start a new independent game development organization with radically different revenue models and say goodbye to the publishers anyway.
We used to need them. Before the internet. We don't need them anymore. They need us. Walk away. Change the industry, entirely. You don't need anything but a link to distribute your work. This is digital entertainment, there is no reason to ship anymore. No reason for publishers. No reason at all. Except for the average artist and programmers lack of marketing knowledge. Guess what? The internet is full of marketers who would LOVE to market real products and work for pennies on your dollar, per sale, so you know they are working hard.
EFF publishers, they were once needed, they are parasites now. Let alone how many cool technologies we can use for free now, including Unreal. It would only take ONE good unreal FPS to begin something more openly owned by project workers.
So, in the spirit of my arguement, I urge everyone who hates bosses to be their own boss - yes we can.
Here is an example of why we're better than the competition: We don't make plastic discs. One small example, and it wins the entire greeny-nutso market. They will buy your games, and urge publishers to stop pressing discs lol. Come on people, we got the internet now, we can control the world, let alone gaming.
I only have one issues with your ideals mortalhuman. You've got a 'replace not fix' attitude.
"If your car breaks down, don't fix it, buy a new one. It was your choice to buy the car that broke down, but that ok because you have a choice to either live with it or find a new car. Never ever attempt to repair or tune up or even talk to your mechanic about regular service to avoid break downs."
Notice how I left out the costs involved, since it has mostly been ignored in that argument. Which is more expensive? Repairing your car or buying a new one? Which is more expensive? (for the employee not the employer.) Leaving your job and looking for another, or having everybody sit down and talk about improving your companies product by having well-managed, well-planned projects that involve a good production schedule and happy motivated workers?
Yes, we do have a choice to just leave and find something better, (the ease of which has been greatly exaggerated, especially for these times.) But it will change nothing.
EDIT your last post showed up while I was typing the above. Let it be known that I'm firmly on the side of pressed discs. Not for the sake of publishers, but for retail (my current employer) and most importantly as a GAMER. I don't have any digital distributed content in my collection, and I will keep it that way. But since so many here support an entirely DD system for their game businesses, you may colour my posts in your eyes as you see fit.
We should start a new independent game development organization with radically different revenue models and say goodbye to the publishers anyway.
We used to need them. Before the internet. We don't need them anymore. They need us. Walk away. Change the industry, entirely. You don't need anything but a link to distribute your work. This is digital entertainment, there is no reason to ship anymore. No reason for publishers. No reason at all. Except for the average artist and programmers lack of marketing knowledge. Guess what? The internet is full of marketers who would LOVE to market real products and work for pennies on your dollar, per sale, so you know they are working hard.
EFF publishers, they were once needed, they are parasites now.
Kinda sounds like my view on the music industry and bands, I guess that could apply to all types of artists though, most of my favorite bands are on independent (not indy music though) labels, don't care about piracy, and are doing what they love with and managing themselves on not wasting money on stupid things like 2 buses or paying 70% of what you make to a studio and managers and what not.
But I guess as a indy game maker piracy is worse because you don't have concerts or merchandise to make money off of...
Sancuum, your taking it the wrong way, we don't own the car, we're helping make cars when we could be making our own.
Sancuum, your taking it the wrong way, we don't own the car, we're helping make cars when we could be making our own.
I don't believe I was taking it the wrong way since I wasn't specifically talking about our desires to move away from publisher driven companies to independent successes. I was referring directly to the poor management of current developments (indie or otherwise) that support crunch and that simply leaving and never bringing the injustice to light is not necessarily going to help just because you have the freedom to do so.
People try to tell how bad the music industry is, and no one cares or listens. We're an even smaller industry and no matter what we do masses will still buy games from big studios and their management wont change. The best we can do is start companies that actually treat their employees well and don't waste resources on paying a CEO millions, who probably hates video games.
hmmm..crunch is a pain in the ass sometimes... When we crunch, we usually get plenty of warning...and we can negotiate a night when we are not there....a lot of people go home for dinner..then come back..All in all I do not mind putting in the extra hours because Netdevil does alot of "extra" for its employees.
As for diminishing returns, well, Gears 2 looks damn good and was done in about 2 years, so maybe they have different data...
Could they have done it near or at the same amount of time with a more stringent schedule of work? You know. 8 hours fullbore. Sometimes overtime near deadlines and such? None of this, one hour lunches or daily game testing sessions (thats for QA).
Gas Powered Games is a leader in this idea of 40 hour weeks IMO. They still seem to make their deadlines? Or rather, they dont make super unrealistic deadlines to appease a publisher and look like hotshots at the expense of their workers.
An ex-developer who got tired of all this gave a talk one time talking about how one of his companies leaders at the time was so spooked that he allowed his team an 8 hour work day, that they were bribing him with a rather large percentage of final sale cuts to get it out on time. He told them again and again he would not make them work beyond, and he took their bribe.
Lo and behold, the deadline came, they shipped in time. They didn't have the crunch the upper management expected.
I've also gone through some s**t, and yes there were days when efficiency was busted, but there were others where we've managed to get a lot of stuff done. But we were willing to do that, because it takes more then 9-5 to get respect and trust for a studio in my country (although after all these years we still have to prove ourselves again and again... but I digress).
Are you setting yourself up though? It seems like a catch 22 over and over again to show your company. Sounds like a mouse in the wheel running as fast as he can, except, he never gets closer to his goal.
If it paid then it OK,but for some extent..,,
AS said early guy who sit on above our head does not know how much work it go into in making it..
I still doubt that making union will solve the problem..
On a side note, 40 hours is still too much. Try taking some hours off to round it down to 35 just to check, you will notice a big increase in quality of life. Quite striking.
In my experience, I would much rather come to work on time and leave on time. No amount of OT pay or afterproject breaks are worth the physical and mental strain.
Lets move this onto some more useful talk here ey?
Instead of all this bitching about how people shoulda this and shoulda that.
Im curious as to what sort of project managment methods are used at all the places you guys work at.
From my limited experience alot of these problems arise from using project managment methods not made for software development.
At work we use i think its the agile system. We have an overall deadline, or at least a time where we are aiming to finish the project, and that time is broken up into what we call sprints. A sprint is essentially a set of tasks that need to get done. But as far as scheduling the overall picture thats most of whats laid down. The day to day work is handled using scrum meetings, where the team gets together at the start of the day, and everyone states what they finished yesterday, what tasks that they can commit to finishing today, and if anything is preventing them from doing work. This way the team also knows what everyone else is doing.
In this way the workers themselves set what they know that they can get finished in the 8 hour work day, with the idea about the big picture at the end. Its also very flexible, because as not everything is written down changes can happen rapidly without needing to document every bloody change, as long as everyone on the team knows what is happening.
Its been a very very good system so far, but im not sure how well it would work for much larger teams.
Replies
The ironic part is that the end product would likely be a lot better. I can only point to this TV Tropes entry for proof.
Probably not, but the successful class action suit against EA did result in $14m being paid out for the worker's unpaid overtime.
Seemed like it, I had to pre-approve all overtime with my manager. I was even turned down a few times "don't come in on Saturday, we'll add an extra day to your task next week".
This is really cries out for an old-style union. Not the kind that are multibillion dollar lobbies in Washington, but something to actually protect and standardize workers rights in an industry. All the laws and regulations are in place (at least in the US, and most other post industrial countries), what's missing is oversight. As the game industry makes up such a small percentage of GDP, you can't expect the government to go doorknocking on every game studio. An organization specifically targeting QoL issues (ie work hours, overtime, leave, etc) is exactly what unions were created for. While there will certainly be holdouts from studios in hiring union folk, if most of the senior talent signs on it would be hard to hire the best without agreeing to terms. Unions are not so far removed from the gaming industry: illustrators, film and theater professionals and graphic designers all have unions in some form.
Until industry employees as a whole decide to take control and set standards for working conditions, the corporate moneymen who are not working 60-80 hours a week will continue to dictate what's 'necessary and acceptable'. Policing the QoL situations for industry workers shouldn't be like policing sweatshop conditions in a myriad of third world countries.
I'm sure this happens, but employees do have power. Firing someone costs a company a lot of money, both in the employee insurance increases they have to pay, and in the costs associated with finding someone new and training them up. It's not as if you have no leverage at all.
that's why you need to be friends with coworkers and get some people together.
True, but the problem is the perception that the studio has an endless supply of candidates ready and willing to step up if someone is fired. Sure, the costs and headaches associated with replacing someone are a factor, but weighing up this against your value as an individual is a risky bet if you've got a family to support, or if corporate culture makes you feel guilty or less valuable if you begin to think about this balance.
unless there is a really good canditate who can start imediately, which is pretty rare..
Me... or was anyways :P
I think its the "juniors" who tell themselves "man bring it on... I can totally do this, sounds like a dream working in a studio for 12+ hours a day", and then you actually do it and its like hitting a brick wall.
But is it not expected to work more hours than a "normal" job, its just the nature of the beast is it not... it sucks, but I don't reaallllly think the industry can work any other way until time management (pre-production etc.) becomes the MAIN focus... which from what I hear isn't always the case.
And some mention the industry becoming unionized... I see this as a double edge blade... and really have no clue what the outcome would be.
Forgot about the epic thing that oxy posted, but that's also a great example. The fact is that mentality really does exist, and even more so than one would probably like to believe.
The successful demonization of unions is p ridiculous in my opinion. The slipper slope OH NO problems with unions are paltry compared to the actual treatment we get already. It's already hard to get a job as a fresh out of school graduate. It's already hard to negotiate salaries, it's already hard to fire the old time guys who have been there forever. Those are basically the main worries about unions, and we already suffer through them now.
Bring on the negotiating power of the unions. I remember when the Screen Actors Guild (SAG) went on strike for higher percentages of profits on the games they worked on. I was really bitter at the time, thinking they are guaranteed a profit share when all they do is provide voices, and I'm in the trenches the full game working on it, but really I was just jealous they are getting fairly compensated on the product while I get shafted.
Just think, with a proper union, no unpaid overtime, no outsourcing allowed (or you can't use anyone in the union, like SAG works, so unless you're willing to have everything made by cheap outsourced, guaranteeing crappy artwork though out, you have to use all union members), proper profit sharing, a person to complain to when things go wrong (your union rep), no having your name removed from the credit after, etc, etc, etc.
I mean what are people really worried about with a union?
This is true, BUT
A) it's the kind of thing that HR knows, not your manager, and normally it's the managers who make the firing decision
So yes, it's stupid to demand extended (which is anything longer than 2 weeks) crunch from your team, and it's stupid to fire someone experienced and already trained because of it. But if you're short-sighted enough for the first, the second is easy to make too.
This almost never happens. You get to be lead in a company by being a "team player" which is code for not rocking the boat (even when it's unfair). And most leads don't want to jeopardize their salaries or positions to stand up for their underlings.
I really thought that all the great games are made with tenderness, love and care. And now I see that it's pretty much correct, it's just that it's not the game loving guys who pull the strings, but the money loving. I don't want my love for videogames to be squizeed out of me and I really feel for the guys at San Diego.
And the worst part is I have a problem with taking shit. So I would hardly keep quiet just to keep a job. So I've started drawing myself some not so bright perspectives, like working my ass off to get a job at some civilized country only to get worked 14 hours a day. And then I tell those guys that they've gone too far and get shitcanned just to return to belarus again.%\
So I'm kinda confued wright now and might even have to reconsder some of my dicisions for the near future...
The Lesson to be learned from here I think is not to take shit. Not even consider it an option. You can talk about that all you want, but unless someone starts doing something it's not all that efficient. So the best thing a person can do is set an example.
But!
You have to be absolutely professional about your work. Just be honest and work and really put all you've got in your work. Do your best. Do great. But only during your 8 working day.
If someone will want to fire you just because you refused to work overtime then I suggest you don't want to work with those people. But of course it's always good to have some money saved and always do personal stuff to keep your self marketable. I guess a person who knows he's so good any studio would be glad to accept him won't think twice about leaving a company that mistreats it's employes, so I suggest thats what we all should aim for.
And I suddenly don't feel so good about playing Epsiodes from Liberty City.(the game is great and all, but man...)
and maybe with a union we could get people to stop working for people like this
http://kotaku.com/5371156/why-we-love-to-hate-activision--and-might-be-wrong
http://www.geeks.co.uk/7282-activision%E2%80%99s-bobby-kotick-hates-developers-innovation-cheap-games-you
Sorry, calling bullshit on this one. This may be your personal opinion based on anecdotal evidence but that does not make it the standard.
#1 - LEAVE HOME AT HOME when you go to work
#2 - LEAVE WORK AT WORK WHEN YOU GO HOME.
#3 - if you don't like where you work, GET A NEW JOB
#4 - if your MAN ain't treating you right, it's HIM not his JOB. HE made the choice to stay there and HE made the decision to take it out on you, ROCKSTAR did not force him.
HUZZAH
your 1950's black and white view of the world is really just awe inspiring. revolutionary even.
You don't happen to be a Randite by chance? Or are you just trolling? If so, don't you think you could have come up with a better argument?
But, I do know this is a serious thing and I AM watching closely and I want to know more about this (cause it's not just rockstar)
I know one thing is sure, When my jobs suck, I LOVE to go home - I don't take it out on my loved ones, I tell them how happy I am to be away from there.
The FACT is simple: No matter how evil a boss is, THESE people decided to stay, it is not Rockstar's fault, it is the fault of the fools who allow themselves to be treated this way...
I don't know what would keep someone there in these conditions unless bragging about their titles is more important than their happiness. EVERYONE has a choice to be disrespected or not.
No, I'm not a troll, boy, I am REASON. there would be NO PROBLEM if those people RESPECTED THEMSELVES and left Rockstar - but they didn't. The fault is their own, regardless of the sympathy I really do feel for them.
edit: and I'm not yelling at you, sorry if it looks that way :P
edit 2: also, if the man cheated, the wife will blame the other woman in most human minds that is what happens and they want to kill the other person, not their own infidel lover. This is like, they are blaming the other woman, not the cheater - I bet if these men had fluff jobs they would STILL be mean at home man. You can't blame your job for how you treat your woman, and she can't blame your job either. Be a man and get a new job if you don't like your work.
2 Rockstar San Diego: I'll take any job you give me, and I'll leave if I don't like it, but I won't go home and take it out on my family, or bring home to work either - don't like it, leave it. Plain and simple and old as dirt. GET A NEW JOB if the job you have is THAT BAD :thumbup:
Read my words, not my form. Leave home separate from work - period - problem solved. Don't like work? Endangering home life? Get A New Job...
AM I missing something here because I DO feel rude if it is THAT bad, but I HIGHLY doubt someone has a gun to their heads saying "stay".
In fact, I think it's an employee security issue "If I leave rockstar, I won't BE a rockstar!" You can't force a company to run differently, you can, however, find a new job...
WHY do people work for big names anymore anyway? Hello, I'm the internet. I bypass ALL the major expenses of big studios and get rid of all the middle men. Why do people still think it's hard to be in game dev? This is not the music industry. All it takes it for us to join together and make communities and such - but no, it's all misused, and studio people still think their poop doesn't stink, so we all want to be them.
Not I says me. I am my own boss. I recommend it. You don't get to use your boss as an excuse when you're mad, but hey, it beats being mad at a boss.
There you go... Obviously the Epic guys will probably not be able to comment on this one, but I'd imagine they're properly compensated.
I'm sure the Rockstar guys' wives would also be more forgiving if a year or two under these conditions would also result in a properly loaded bank account. Then they can decide about taking a few months off the job, or finding a new job that doesn't require overtime.
The problems come when you do crunch and the game isn't a success so there's no profit to share. Which is quite common nowadays, isn't it, with all the studios closed and downsizing. So a lot of companies nowadays do have serious leverage over their employees.
Then again, is Rockstar that close to the edge? I know GTA4 hasn't sold as well as the previous games, but it should still be making quite the money...
Your trolling, right?
Ok, I understand your position better. What I think though is you have this dichotomy of a separation between work and play. Psychologically, this doesn't work from all I have read.
You can claim about not taking it out (or more, not being there for your family or friends and seeing the exhaustion of your spouse is more the complaint these women have) if you were in such a position. Unfortunately, I have to call shenanigans or your own lack of experiencing long hours and how it effects your outlook. Ever read up on the studies that relate the lack of sleep to being drunk?
Stick with it and you perpetuate this 'crunch is good' mentality. Stand up and you will unlikely to be heard in the chaos. If you are fired or quit about these injustices you would be denying yourself that extra shipped title. If you live through it and then decide to kick up a stink you will likely get fired since they now have the time and money to replace you and the last crunch was so 'successful.' This latter option may be of worth however if the majority of the entire team go down with you.
The reason I highlight this goes back to one of the staples of this thread and even in part applies to me. The fresh grads that everyone says are so ready to do crunch are probably not just naive and arrogant they are probably also settling for it just for a shipped title. I am sure that if I got to crunch and collapsed and left/got fired for my life then getting back in may be as hard as it is for me now, since the big question on new employers lips will be, "Why did you leave then?"
There is a tradeoff. To have a relationship you actually need to spend time with one another and/or with the kids. Unless the relationship was so meaningless to begin with, that the amount of money makes up for the lack of the other person. In that case, why not just divorce/separate?
Balance. Plus, Mike seems unaware or ignores the studies already done in the 20th century showing diminishing returns past 8 hours.
When work was hurting my life, I became my own boss, because it was the only answer I had. I'm not the genius life coach or anything, and I DO feel for these people, but someone should have told them they have a choice - because they do.
If I had one wish right now my wish for the moment would be that I could interface with these gentlemen and ladies from San Diego and talk them into taking their talents online.
To be fair, it IS better to cut the people who are done working than it is to cut those still finishing up - I'm sure some of the people found jobs right away, and others were probably transplanted at that to get other titles done. We don't see it all to make a judgment, we'd have to find someone well connected in the circles of pandemic for example to know what happened after the closing. But yea, cutting people who are done work are people who are done work - if you don't have work for them anymore, you just don't - you definitely wouldn't want to cut a team who isn't done yet, especially when their work costs millions to accomplish.
Yes, that is true. When you see that happening in your life, be wise enough to *not work in such environments*. You don't force that company to change, you change what is in your OWN life that is the problem. And if the problem is the job, get-a-new-one.
For some reason, people are under the false impression that the stress from work going home is anyone's fault but the employee's. The employee has the choice to Quit and move on, and when they don't they CHOOSE to be upset and that's where they are wrong.
If you were forced placement at a job, that's different. But NO ONE is forced placement in the United States. You choose where you work, and you choose to put up with that work place. Not anyone's fault but their own.
As for diminishing returns, well, Gears 2 looks damn good and was done in about 2 years, so maybe they have different data...
I've also gone through some s**t, and yes there were days when efficiency was busted, but there were others where we've managed to get a lot of stuff done. But we were willing to do that, because it takes more then 9-5 to get respect and trust for a studio in my country (although after all these years we still have to prove ourselves again and again... but I digress).
We used to need them. Before the internet. We don't need them anymore. They need us. Walk away. Change the industry, entirely. You don't need anything but a link to distribute your work. This is digital entertainment, there is no reason to ship anymore. No reason for publishers. No reason at all. Except for the average artist and programmers lack of marketing knowledge. Guess what? The internet is full of marketers who would LOVE to market real products and work for pennies on your dollar, per sale, so you know they are working hard.
EFF publishers, they were once needed, they are parasites now. Let alone how many cool technologies we can use for free now, including Unreal. It would only take ONE good unreal FPS to begin something more openly owned by project workers.
So, in the spirit of my arguement, I urge everyone who hates bosses to be their own boss - yes we can.
Here is an example of why we're better than the competition: We don't make plastic discs. One small example, and it wins the entire greeny-nutso market. They will buy your games, and urge publishers to stop pressing discs lol. Come on people, we got the internet now, we can control the world, let alone gaming.
"If your car breaks down, don't fix it, buy a new one. It was your choice to buy the car that broke down, but that ok because you have a choice to either live with it or find a new car. Never ever attempt to repair or tune up or even talk to your mechanic about regular service to avoid break downs."
Notice how I left out the costs involved, since it has mostly been ignored in that argument. Which is more expensive? Repairing your car or buying a new one? Which is more expensive? (for the employee not the employer.) Leaving your job and looking for another, or having everybody sit down and talk about improving your companies product by having well-managed, well-planned projects that involve a good production schedule and happy motivated workers?
Yes, we do have a choice to just leave and find something better, (the ease of which has been greatly exaggerated, especially for these times.) But it will change nothing.
EDIT your last post showed up while I was typing the above. Let it be known that I'm firmly on the side of pressed discs. Not for the sake of publishers, but for retail (my current employer) and most importantly as a GAMER. I don't have any digital distributed content in my collection, and I will keep it that way. But since so many here support an entirely DD system for their game businesses, you may colour my posts in your eyes as you see fit.
Kinda sounds like my view on the music industry and bands, I guess that could apply to all types of artists though, most of my favorite bands are on independent (not indy music though) labels, don't care about piracy, and are doing what they love with and managing themselves on not wasting money on stupid things like 2 buses or paying 70% of what you make to a studio and managers and what not.
But I guess as a indy game maker piracy is worse because you don't have concerts or merchandise to make money off of...
Sancuum, your taking it the wrong way, we don't own the car, we're helping make cars when we could be making our own.
I don't believe I was taking it the wrong way since I wasn't specifically talking about our desires to move away from publisher driven companies to independent successes. I was referring directly to the poor management of current developments (indie or otherwise) that support crunch and that simply leaving and never bringing the injustice to light is not necessarily going to help just because you have the freedom to do so.
Could they have done it near or at the same amount of time with a more stringent schedule of work? You know. 8 hours fullbore. Sometimes overtime near deadlines and such? None of this, one hour lunches or daily game testing sessions (thats for QA).
Gas Powered Games is a leader in this idea of 40 hour weeks IMO. They still seem to make their deadlines? Or rather, they dont make super unrealistic deadlines to appease a publisher and look like hotshots at the expense of their workers.
An ex-developer who got tired of all this gave a talk one time talking about how one of his companies leaders at the time was so spooked that he allowed his team an 8 hour work day, that they were bribing him with a rather large percentage of final sale cuts to get it out on time. He told them again and again he would not make them work beyond, and he took their bribe.
Lo and behold, the deadline came, they shipped in time. They didn't have the crunch the upper management expected.
Are you setting yourself up though? It seems like a catch 22 over and over again to show your company. Sounds like a mouse in the wheel running as fast as he can, except, he never gets closer to his goal.
AS said early guy who sit on above our head does not know how much work it go into in making it..
I still doubt that making union will solve the problem..
Instead of all this bitching about how people shoulda this and shoulda that.
Im curious as to what sort of project managment methods are used at all the places you guys work at.
From my limited experience alot of these problems arise from using project managment methods not made for software development.
At work we use i think its the agile system. We have an overall deadline, or at least a time where we are aiming to finish the project, and that time is broken up into what we call sprints. A sprint is essentially a set of tasks that need to get done. But as far as scheduling the overall picture thats most of whats laid down. The day to day work is handled using scrum meetings, where the team gets together at the start of the day, and everyone states what they finished yesterday, what tasks that they can commit to finishing today, and if anything is preventing them from doing work. This way the team also knows what everyone else is doing.
In this way the workers themselves set what they know that they can get finished in the 8 hour work day, with the idea about the big picture at the end. Its also very flexible, because as not everything is written down changes can happen rapidly without needing to document every bloody change, as long as everyone on the team knows what is happening.
Its been a very very good system so far, but im not sure how well it would work for much larger teams.