Rockstar San Diego
polycounter lvl 17
I suppose this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who works in this industry, but it's still disheartening to read. Six months of crunch and still going? Performance warnings for not working 11+ hours/day? I know it's only one side of the story, but seriously, ugh. Hope no one else is going through crap like this right now...
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RockstarSpouse/20100107/4032/Wives_of_Rockstar_San_Diego_employees_have_collected_themselves.php
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RockstarSpouse/20100107/4032/Wives_of_Rockstar_San_Diego_employees_have_collected_themselves.php
Replies
keep taking it in the butt, rockstar employees. I can only assume none of you have ever saved up any money in the bank and expect to never be hired by anyone else ever again.
fuck do i have an awesome job. i need to complain less.
edit: that was probably too harsh. Lots of people have families to look after.
How do you handle that without going insane? After 2 weeks it becomes less about standing up for yourself, and more about figuring out how to physically stand up at all from sheer exhaustion.
When companies completely decouple the worker from the profitability of the final product (ie no real profit sharing unless the game sells 50 million units) why would someone destroy their health for a job?
FEAR
(Laughs evilly!)
I will never break my back for someone else than myself. Guess my future job applications went out the door now
I think the industry really does need to start looking at sorting out a union, or at least some kind of body that can act for the employees if they feel they're getting a raw deal.
If so, I am pretty sure I will be staying in Europe. I don't mind working really long hours, but performance warnings for less than 11 hours a day? That is what i would expect from factory work in the 19th century..
It's difficult. In most studios you have a range of people. Management will target the "weakest" members of the team first, then use that to pressure the ones with more clout. They ask the interns, people who it's their first job, or anyone in love with the company and doesn't want to work anywhere else. Most of the time people in this category will do the work out of fear of losing the job (and for them it probably is a valid fear). Then you have 1-3 people who could get a job elsewhere, or won't put up with it, but management will make it seem like they aren't team players, and it's their fault the game is suffering.
The phrase "failure to plan on your part, doesn't constitute an emergency on mine" always comes to mind. I've never been in a position where the game was behind because I was taking too long, it's always been that the tasks were poorly planned, or radically changed at the last minute. That'd be ok if the overtime was paid for, but to expect an employee to eat their freetime to make up for someone else's (who's getting higher salary) sweeping changes or incompetence is ridiculous.
But it's very rare for someone to stand up for themselves, almost all the power is in the hands of the company. Which is why unions would be a good thing, putting negotiating power in the hands of the workers.
No, but people put up with it anyway. I mean this happens in european studios also. I know a certain German studio that does loads of unpaid overtime, which is highly illegal, but there are all of 2-3 large funded studios here, so people put up with it to work in games.
Shoot, I heard I/O interactive crunched over 10 months for Kane & Lynch, no way that's legal in Denmark.
So its the inflation of people willing to do anything to work in games that is allowing this to happen, that and the blatant lack of unions?
Depressing, really.
Abso-fucking-lutely. Well said, Ben.
a week of crunch every now and then is completely understandable to put more polish in before an milestone, but not that it becomes the norm...
True, but sadly it's nothing new and not just in games. There's been talk of unions in all aspects of CG for years. You could substitute the word 'games' in your post with any CG / entertainment-related field and it'd be just as relevant, and just as widespread.
There's a thread entitled Unpaid Artists over at CGTalk, which details first-hand the plight of Canadian VFX artists that were shafted out of substantial sums of money in unpaid wages by the Discovery Channel which makes for a very sobering read - and it's not an isolated occurrence by any means.
Work Harder!
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=2&t=652434
The same might well be said about game studios?
from time to time you have to use full speed to tackle the one or other bad situation. And a good pilot knows how to use full speed wisely!
But a beginner thinks "wow, full speed is way better then flying with reduced speed.. so put the throttle to full speed and wohooooooo.."
He will end up on the ground or learn very fast..
Well man, I think thats really the best way to explain it :poly121:
(sucking out the power of our staff and then throw them away to get new ones, would not fit this example ...)
The best you can do at the moment, it seems, is just to try not to work for one who couldn't care less. Obviously if you have no work at all, it can be better to get *some* job just because it'll be better for your CV than McDonalds or whatever, and likely you'll get paid at least the same, and learn a lot more about the industry in the process.
Now I don't have any work at all.
How does this make sense. Now I just have a different shitty job :poly118:
If it really is so terrible that potentially taking a pay cut and/or doing something outside the industry is going to make you feel better, then obviously do that.
Circumstances are different for everyone, I'm just saying what I'd do if I was in that situation. I feel bad for those guys at Rockstar San Diego.
Thats the problem, they can't just quit. It's easier said than done and it has nothing to do with self respect. "Sticking it out" is exactly what they are doing because theres no other choice if you want to continue working in this industry.
The industry is competitive as we all know and "getting another games job" is another thing that is easier said than done.
I don't have a fix for this, but spreading this news out to the world where everyone who reads it can feel the intense rage against the companies in question is a start. Probably wouldn't do any good long-term though since assuming the companies in question end up closing down, new ones will form and treat their workers the same way until they close down and the cycle continues.
I think whats most disheartening is hearing other game developers expect these type of work days to be normal and are perfectly cool with it since there so hardcore and macho and all.
Who are these people?
I think the mindset mostly comes from fresh grads, or people with less ties that are just eager to work, I guess partially being naive and desperate which of course is a perfectly acceptable fault.
At massive we have done crunchtime, but it was more or less voluntary, we got food and plenty of parties for it, so it was not all bad ^^ No-one was really forced to do it.
DOOM AND GLOOOOM!!
How the hell do companies get to the point where they actually have to start stretching their employees to the brink? is it not a time management issue where someone has dropped the ball?
surely if you plan for the allocated time, potential hiccups, changes in technology this could be avoided?
just my thoughts
but sensibly speaking, why should anyone have the attitude posted by ericdigital that people who've already put their time in to an industry should be threated with the prospect of being replaced just due to that crunch. catch 22 i know.
Im going to get some grief from some of the Epic people here, but here is an example
http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/45949/Epic-Runs-a-Sweat-Shop
I have also gotten this confirmed from Tom Buscaglia? (Game Lawyer) who in arguments with Mike . Mike has pretty much come out that overtime is expected and he thinks its justified with the pay epic workers receive.
hopefully people will keep speaking out like this, and maybe there is a chance it will make some change.
You'd have a job that gives you consistent hours and time to spend with friends and family and on yourself. And no, I wouldn't work in fast food, but I have little doubt I could head back to a restaurant that could get me at least 40k a year. Not to mention all the other jobs out there that are related to the field we're in. The job market isn't that terrifying, but you have to be flexible. Someone like you is just going to get continually ass raped because you're too scared to step back and consider other options.
Maybe no company would ever accept that in a contract, but it's the only way I can see of actually catching a company's attention (besides quitting). Knowing that they're going to have to start paying 1.5x or 2.x for regular hours if crunch exceeds a certain number of weeks would certainly be a motivating factor to A) plan the project better, and
Anymore than 1.5 months of crunch is too much (even that is a little extreme).
they need to hire more people if they are going to be this busy.
Most of the big studios don't seem to care about employees.
I was trying to make a point, namely that quitting your current Game Industry job is hardly a solution because a new Game Industry job where you work "normal" hours is not easily found. So you have to either "sit it out" and be on the lookout for another gig or quit and take the risk of finding another job within one or two months (or however long you can last) that DOES respect the health of their employees. Either that or you have to find a job in another industry, which is totally fine if you don't care but I just think alot of people here do care about their line of work.
Sure there are endless options but it's not always so simple.
I remember a thread like this from a few years back maybe where RobGalanakis made some interresting comments about unionizing. Anyone remember that? I can't find it.
Game companies should make some "on call rooms" like they have in hospitals!
Speaking of hospitals and people with no life outside of work;
http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/10/workhour-restrictions-harms-resident-surgeon-training.html
Yes the majority of residents in that survey thought 80 hours a week is either too few or a "barrier" to their learning. That's some hardcore stuff right there! How do they want to do that much and not be fatigued? Or they are fatigued but still want to do it... Their dedication is truly amazing.
I honestly believe that some of the the employers really think that having free fruit in the kitchen is adequate compensation:0
Its seems worse in The US though - most places I worked at didn't really do crunch, but they were all independent developers( must be a cionnection here)
we worked hard, but generally finished around 5-30
If a few respected and influential employees simply refuse to take in the crazy schedule (think ADs/leads/seniors), then certainly talks will happen and situation can start changing, at least in some teams?
I met quite a few juniors or even older artists/coders who seem okay to work stupid hours just because 'its cool to work in games'. Sooo stupid!
I personally pull out some extra hours when I feel like it (getting close to the completion of a cool asset, I sometimes pull out a 9PMer just for the satisfaction of getting it done and moving on) but I still don't get the point of 12h/days weeks. I mean it just doent work.... If others depend on your work to accomplish their own (model to rig...), then it has to be planned on a 8h schedule.
Also I noticed that when crunch happen, it sometimes is because the 'big picture' deadline had not been set earlier. If you know what is expected from your team to deliver roughly a year or 6 months in advance, then you can plan accordingly. But being asked something like, 'oh btw to finish this up you'll have to work 12h/day because it all has to be finished in 2 months from now and I think your team cannot do it in 8h days!' just makes no sense and I think I would start being all european and french and annoyingly bitchy if this was asked from me.
I understand that studio varies. I have been lucky enough to work on projects never requiring crunch, but even on such occasions I have seen people willing to overstress themselves 'for free' so to speak. So yeah maybe it's just a matter of responsible, influential team members saying NO to schedule changes ?
P
But if the lead refuses the schedule because well, he simply wasn't informed well enough beforehand of what his team would have to output?
Then again places and people vary for sure.