Is that seriously legal to treat employees like that in the United States?
If so, I am pretty sure I will be staying in Europe. I don't mind working really long hours, but performance warnings for less than 11 hours a day? That is what i would expect from factory work in the 19th century..
Where I'm from (Norway) the same thing goes on, there's laws of course, but business owners rarely care about them. Funcom (makers of Age of Conan) got some bad press for pushing their employees too hard, the work environment was supposedly pretty bad, long hours, working weekends and holidays was the norm of course, so was unpaid overtime.
If you don't put up with it you have two choices, quit or get fired.
Is anyone surprised by this though? This has been going on in the gaming industry, or in general the IT sector since the beginning.
A union sounds like an easy solution, but I'm weary against it. I live in the greater Detroit area and the auto unions, along with the leftist government the city has had for decades, have completely destroyed the city.
A union sounds like an easy solution, but I'm weary against it. I live in the greater Detroit area and the auto unions, along with the leftist government the city has had for decades, have completely destroyed the city.
Back on topic, I think a union could help but maybe just some labor laws about the industry and some proper enforcement of said laws is all that's needed.
OXy: I think Mike kind of mispoke there, which i know he corrected in a later interview after those GDC talks. It isn't that we are required to work 60+ hours a week (contractually, it does only state 40), its that we do, and willingly do so because we all love our craft. There are plenty who do their 40 and thats it, but when the shit hits the fan everyone buckles down. It is a full on genuine love for what we're doing that keeps us going, and a pride in what we do that makes us work hard.
Sure, no one likes to crunch. Scheduling has definitely improved so that there aren't traumatic crunches anymore (we rarely go 6 day weeks, its only by choice), and there is a strict "no work later than 2am" policy.
Now FAR be it for me to put words into your mouth, so instead I'll ask. I can totally understand that it's genuine love for what you're doing that pushes you guys on and individual level at Epic to do the things you do. The proof is "in the pudding" as the saying goes. However isn't it also an issue that you feel that you're being fairly rewarded, or at least treated with the respect you believe you deserve by the company?
I think a lot of people hear about the hours you guys put in at Epic and think of it as the same kind of thing that EA and Rockstar are now doing...but you guys love your company, am I right? Working insanely hard for a company that CLEARLY doesn't respect the effort, time, and energy that goes into what you do goes beyond simply being dedicated to your craft...in fact I would go so far as to say that working like that for anyone that doesn't respect your contribution is actually damaging the craft as a whole by tolerating completely bullshit attitudes and misinformed beliefs.
Sorry for the bit of ranting here, just some stuff I've been thinking. Epic just strikes me as largely a place full of dudes that work super hard because they believe in what they're making, and WHO they're making it for. Where as EA and Rockstar are asking guys to jump on grenades and refusing to even acknowledge the sacrifice. If you're working on a golf game as an environment artist no amount of dedication to your craft is going to register on upper management. You're never going to hear "DOOOD! I saw that set of bleachers you made! THAT SHIT IS WICKED!" but you're being expected to put the same amount of effort in as if it were some masterwork that was going to gain you prizes and acclaim.
heheh, I love how people just assume EA didn't change since the EA Spouse thing. I guess nobody believes me, the guy who worked at an EA studio. The only crappy thing was that we seemed to accrue our vacation time too quickly and would get told to take a week off when we got 200 hrs stored up.
heheh, I love how people just assume EA didn't change since the EA Spouse thing. I guess nobody believes me, the guy who worked at an EA studio. The only crappy thing was that we seemed to accrue our vacation time too quickly and would get told to take a week off when we got 200 hrs stored up.
Fair enough, but they also did just close Pandemic, and a friend of mine worked in their Chicago office when they shut that one down too.
Now FAR be it for me to put words into your mouth, so instead I'll ask. I can totally understand that it's genuine love for what you're doing that pushes you guys on and individual level at Epic to do the things you do. The proof is "in the pudding" as the saying goes. However isn't it also an issue that you feel that you're being fairly rewarded, or at least treated with the respect you believe you deserve by the company?
I think a lot of people hear about the hours you guys put in at Epic and think of it as the same kind of thing that EA and Rockstar are now doing...but you guys love your company, am I right? Working insanely hard for a company that CLEARLY doesn't respect the effort, time, and energy that goes into what you do goes beyond simply being dedicated to your craft...in fact I would go so far as to say that working like that for anyone that doesn't respect your contribution is actually damaging the craft as a whole by tolerating completely bullshit attitudes and misinformed beliefs.
Sorry for the bit of ranting here, just some stuff I've been thinking. Epic just strikes me as largely a place full of dudes that work super hard because they believe in what they're making, and WHO they're making it for. Where as EA and Rockstar are asking guys to jump on grenades and refusing to even acknowledge the sacrifice. If you're working on a golf game as an environment artist no amount of dedication to your craft is going to register on upper management. You're never going to hear "DOOOD! I saw that set of bleachers you made! THAT SHIT IS WICKED!" but you're being expected to put the same amount of effort in as if it were some masterwork that was going to gain you prizes and acclaim.
I can't recall exactly what was said by Mike and I won't speak for moose but, in my experience at Epic I have never thought our situation has even come close to the stuff mentioned at R* and EA. Even if you take out the fact that we love the games we make and the craft, my work experience has been awesome, especially compared to work situations in my past.
I don't want people to think we're somehow in a similar situation and the only difference is we're making something "cool".
A union sounds like an easy solution, but I'm weary against it. I live in the greater Detroit area and the auto unions, along with the leftist government the city has had for decades, have completely destroyed the city.
Hmmm, I'm certainly no expert on the subject, but I understand that the auto companies had a lot more to do with it than the unions. :P
when I was at EA Montreal on Ao2, it seemed pretty awesome, great studio and they managed time well with sprints. I think the overall coprorate EA monster image is far worse than the actual reality in most cases. people just love to hate on EA.
in terms of rockstar, I have heard on bully at R* Vancouver they were crunching for close to a year of massive OT. seems to just be the mentality of you gotta be hardcore to work there, really kinda lame and not hardcore at all.
I can't recall exactly what was said by Mike and I won't speak for moose but, in my experience at Epic I have never thought our situation has even come close to the stuff mentioned at R* and EA. Even if you take out the fact that we love the games we make and the craft, my work experience has been awesome, especially compared to work situations in my past.
I don't want people to think we're somehow in a similar situation and the only difference is we're making something "cool".
Right it just seems like whenever this topic comes up Mikes comments always get dragged out, and I was just saying that I thought it was really a completely different animal.
when I was at EA Montreal on Ao2, it seemed pretty awesome, great studio and they managed time well with sprints. I think the overall coprorate EA monster image is far worse than the actual reality in most cases. people just love to hate on EA.
in terms of rockstar, I have heard on bully at R* Vancouver they were crunching for close to a year of massive OT. seems to just be the mentality of you gotta be hardcore to work there, really kinda lame and not hardcore at all.
Right, it's probably more of a localized managerial issue than the fact that all of EA or all of Rockstar is some horrible place to work. It's easy to forget when talking about giant corporate monoliths like EA that they're still ultimately made up of the people that it employs. I've now worked at two companies where I watched the management steer the company straight into the metaphorical iceberg despite months of cries from the lower decks about the impending collision. There really should be more accountability for bad management...but it seems like a lot of those dudes step out of one burning ship right into another.
when I was at EA Montreal on Ao2, it seemed pretty awesome, great studio and they managed time well with sprints. I think the overall coprorate EA monster image is far worse than the actual reality in most cases. people just love to hate on EA.
Well.... Another reason they're hated on is for the habit of buying popular studios, promising gold and creative freedom, then six months to a year later they shut them down. Just merging a lot of small studios into one big isn't doing much good from a gamer's point of view. Historically it's smaller studios that's been producing more unique and interesting games. But if a game doesn't sell millions of copies EA don't give a shit about them.
Hmmm, I'm certainly no expert on the subject, but I understand that the auto companies had a lot more to do with it than the unions. :P
Yeah blaming the downfall of the american auto makers on the unions is so disingenuous it's ridiculous. It's a combination of the management making horrible decisions, sticking with giant gas guzzling cars when the market shifted to more fuel efficient ones, and them being caught with nothing to provide. American car maker CEOs make 40x what their EU and asian counterparts do, yet are unable to provide the same level of competence in their leadership.
Now you could possibly argue that Unions fairly negotiated for proper healthcare and retirement funds, something that every other 1st world nation provides at the state level, rather than privately, and that ballooned costs per car, but that's hardly the fault of the workers using their negotiating power to get the same treatment as their foreign counterparts.
Unions are like number 50 on the list of why the US car makers have failed, and even if they were number one, a single failed union doesn't prove the idea is faulty. There are so many more problems (as we clearly see) when all of the power is in the hands of the companies.
The level of brainwashing that the corporate world has managed to convinced Joe Sixpack to hate unions is really impressive. Depressing, but impressive.
According to the US Labor Department, the destruction of the unions as been the main factor in the decline of real wages that has continued since the Reagan era. Health and safety standards in the workplace have also deteriorated: there are laws, but they're simply not enforced, so the number of industrial accidents has risen sharply in the past ten years. Then there is the effect of the decline of unions on democracy: the unions are one of the few means by which ordinary people can enter the political arena. Finally, there's a psychological effect. The destruction of the unions is part of a much more general effort to privatize aspirations, to eliminate solidarity, the sense that we're all in it together, that we care for one another.
So the propaganda system is designed, has been for years, to demonize unions, which makes a lot of sense. Unions are a democratizing force in which the mass- one of the few ways in which the large mass of the population can pool limited resources and work together for some common good. So that's that bad thing: democracy. So naturally you want to demonize and destroy unions, and that's been going on forever.
And the other leading propaganda theme -- and I don't mean by that, you know, like, just what you hear in the newspapers- read in the newspapers and so on, like the entertainment industry and television and everything else -- is anti-politics. Meaning, setting up a picture -- it's called anti-politics -- the picture -- but a very specific kind of anti-politics -- you have to establish the image, you know, get into people's heads, that the Government is the enemy- the Federal Government. State Governments are okay, because they can be sort of controlled by business anyway, so it doesn't matter. But the Federal Government is sometimes a little too big to be pushed around, so it's the enemy. And it cannot be, nobody can dream of the possibility, that the Government is of, by, and for the people. That's impossible. It's an enemy to be hated and feared.
The companies are only really doing what they can get away, anyone(anyone bastardly and corrupted by power) in any industry would do this if they could get away with it.
I thought art was such a specialised thing anyway. Its funny how art can get such overinflated prices for percievably completely worthless things, and yet when its done specifically as a job its completely undervalued.
But perhaps that is in part due to the artists faults, their somewhat unique phsycology and they undervalue themselves, and the perception that they should just be doing it for the art.
The whole video was decent, of course he has a bit of a slant (who doesn't?) but I agree with the whole UAW thing.
@Poop: I see your point. Saying that the UAW destroyed the Industry was misplaced on my part. And they did fight for worker rights and level'd the playing field. But I think it's gotten out of control now.
So if Game Artists/Programmers were to Unionize, how would that even work? Like we say "Hey we are a Union now" and then what? Somebody says Im the head of the Digital Artists Guild or whatever and we give him or her money and they protect us from evil Game Companies that seek to exploit our "Passion" I am not against it nor for it, just curious as to how it would play out.
yea basically. everyone get's together. We elect people to represent us. They bargain for whatever people want, and if we don't get it, then we strike I guess. The whole paying dues thing probably wouldn't happen until after that when people were needed to organize and run the union full time.
Anyone joining the union agrees to abide by the union's decisions. Let's say magically everyone in the game industry joined a union, and it now has a full time competent representative. Now that rep talks with the major game companies, and the union members and negotiates standards. Minimum pay for certain positions, guaranteed credit, profit sharing, whatever people in the union agree on. If EA, or R*, or any other company refuses, or tries to violate it after agreeing, the people being mistreated tell the union, and the Union has the power to strike. If they do this, everyone in the Union would agree not to work until it's resolved.
As an example, let's say Junior artist salary is set at 60k USD a year. Any company wanting to hire junior artists could easily look this up, and know what they have to pay. If they try to hire junior artists for less, it only takes one to let the union rep know, and he can then contact that company and tell them that every union member won't be coming in, unless they get in line with the agreed upon standards.
Once a union gets going, they actually have money to pay out to workers while striking I believe, but I'm not 100% certain. Anyway, having your workers go on strike would be devastating to this industry, slipping a holiday deadline, etc. So I imagine it would only take one strike before a lot of movement would happen.
I mean, it's most likely not going to happen, as we are by and large treated fairly well, and it takes really abusive treatment for people to band together in the numbers needed (coal miners, wal mart workers, etc), but that's how it would work if we did.
unions 'can' be a good thing. I remember when I worked in a local authority back in the late 80's I was in 'NUPE' and paid my dues. Only thing was my immediate supervisor was a real bitch and made it tough for me BUT she was also the union rep. go figure
We were still ridiculously low paid even being part of a union. My first salary was 4,080 pounds per year ( 1987)
Things like consistent pay scales would be great though
TBH though I can't see many people going for the union option. Seems successive governments have made it very hard to stand up for your rights.
If it did happen they would just relocate to india or china.
The biggest problem with unions is that they still rely on people standing up to employers. I read the Animation Guild blog, and on a consistent basis there are posts about employees who falsify time cards and don't put down overtime hours, etc., due to pressure from management. The union can't file grievances if people aren't reporting their excess hours, and so in the end it comes down to the same thing: companies are still able to take advantage of their employees because people aren't willing to stand up for themselves. I do think the union adds leverage, which is sorely needed, but it's unfortunate that it seems to boil down to the strength (or lack thereof) of individual employees.
I'll play devils advocate here and toss out one local example of how a union that has done a hell of a lot of good recently signed its workers pink slips.
Boeing, has a huge union and it is very powerful here in the northwest. They recently went on strike at a very critical time to shore up benefits so that when boeing started cutting costs they didn't burn the workers. Boeing being a year behind on its dream liner couldn't afford a strike so it caved and ponied up for the higher cost to keep benefits the same.
As a result of the strike the company is building its newest plane "the future of the company" in South Carolina where the union recently disintegrated in order to attract Boeing. Which is something GM did with Saturn and that worked out oh so well...
I'm not saying the unions are evil and need to go, but they do need to be adept at predicting what the company will do as a response. In this case I think they made a really stupid move striking over small things like reducing dependent medical coverage from age 24 down to 21. It wasn't even dropping the dependants it was reducing their coverage down to a level equal to an average plan they'll have of they get a regular job.
And yea Ruz is right, it needs to be a global effort and no one gets a job without joining the union. That just won't happen...
The writer's union screwed themselves over as well with their recent strike. They make less than they did before, and many of them never got back the jobs they had before they went on strike.
The biggest problem with unions is that they still rely on people standing up to employers. I read the Animation Guild blog, and on a consistent basis there are posts about employees who falsify time cards and don't put down overtime hours, etc., due to pressure from management. The union can't file grievances if people aren't reporting their excess hours, and so in the end it comes down to the same thing: companies are still able to take advantage of their employees because people aren't willing to stand up for themselves. I do think the union adds leverage, which is sorely needed, but it's unfortunate that it seems to boil down to the strength (or lack thereof) of individual employees.
the animators are always afraid of it coming back to them, it's driven into our minds that the professional world is small, so news of your stool pigeoning gets around and you don't get hired for that next job by the same or another studio... from what some people have said, some game studios are like that too. It's not that they don't want to, it's because they are threatened not to, either by the way the industry is or by what they've been told has happened before. It's a terrible way to work, especially long term as you always feel that axe swinging over your head. Bend over now or bend over later.
With the forums going in a new direction with "news" and other related articles on the industry. I'd be interested in seeing something about The best/worst companies to work for rated by Polycount. Could be a yearly poll, or evaluation of companies.
It would benefit most that are not familiar with certain companies, and could help to prevent a lot of heartache.
That's come up before, and there are other sites that handle that sort of thing. People don't like reporting on companies as sir-knight pointed out its easily traced back to the source (even "anonymous" comments) because the industry is so small and the backlash is potentially so stunning.
I personally would hate to see the focus shift from game art to industry monitoring/politics.
As a student right now, I've read mountains of articles related to the Game Industry and how jobs in it work. Its actually scary when you come across this kind of news and see how business can often turn ugly during the development of a product. One would think Rockstar's shiny IP could protect it from the evils and self defeating tactics that we just read about, but apparently it doesn't. I'm curious if there are any 'higher ups' on this forum that can give us their viewpoint.
I mean, there are great companies out there that treat their employees with respect. I would even venture that a happy staff is a staff that produces the best work with the most efficiency (just look at Pixar). Is there pressure from the upper echelon to squeeze the laborer now? We all know that companies HATE to see their bottom line move lower so they tend to look for quick fixes. Today, we are all held at gunpoint by company shareholders who can make or break a company if it doesn't perform better each quarter.
My final thought is that we should focus on art, but never forget that we do it for a job... or at least hope to do it for a job. But if every employer has a branding iron to mark us if we don't cower before them, then isn't it our duty to protect ourselves? It also seems like there should be laws against these kinds of policies anyways.
How about Duke Nukem Forever? Working a decade on the same product for "minimum wage"... a product that probably won't even be released. That's gotta suck badly... Working off the promise of royalties, points and bonuses is never a good idea. Cause what you're working on might never be released, or it might drag on for so long you just burn out and quit... Damn, 10 years on the same game? No wonder half the team eventually left. But that shit gotta reek havoc with your resume as well. Man, all the shit you could've had on your portfolio in that time...
etb342, there's laws against all sorts of things, doesn't mean they're respected.
"I personally would hate to see the focus shift from game art to industry monitoring/politics."
Hasn't this happened already a long time ago? That's why we see so few original games, it's mostly rehashed IP and safe bets. No one wants to risk money. This is a business after all, the only one who cares about art is the artist.
Stephen I think your idea is a pretty good one, the focusing of the positive aspect at least. While I dont know about polycount, the IGDA might be a good place for it, a bi weekly/monthly article on awesome game studios and their company culture could inspire other companies to adopt certain things, and give that particular company some free publicity.
"I personally would hate to see the focus shift from game art to industry monitoring/politics."
Hasn't this happened already a long time ago? That's why we see so few original games, it's mostly rehashed IP and safe bets. No one wants to risk money. This is a business after all, the only one who cares about art is the artist.
From my understanding of seeing game reviews and articles and such, it is mostly the indie developers, working on smaller platforms like the DS, WiiWare, XboxLive, and even iPhone, who are the ones making the more original, 'risky' games right now. No, a AAA title, or even any console title, won't be likey to try rocking the boat too much, but there are lots of outlets available to try something new nowadays, it seems (As long as the primary concern isn't about having the most ultra-realsitic graphics).
JacqueChoi,
The Better Business Bureau of Canada deals with these situations. They are in the business of up holding standards for workplace environments.
As said on the webpage:
BBB is an unbiased organization that sets and upholds high standards for fair and honest business behavior.
Every BBB Accredited Business is monitored for continuing adherence to BBB standards.
How about Duke Nukem Forever? Working a decade on the same product for "minimum wage"... a product that probably won't even be released. That's gotta suck badly... Working off the promise of royalties, points and bonuses is never a good idea.
Well looking at the art they released after working on it for 10 years they
didnt work toooo hard.
JacqueChoi,
The Better Business Bureau of Canada deals with these situations. They are in the business of up holding standards for workplace environments.
I once worked for a studio that stopped paying employees.
Even after reported, the BBB didn't do much about it, and the company was able to continue operating for over 2+ years.
The BBB really holds no power at all. They can really just flag certain companies of holding bad business practices.
Most of what you guys are bringing up, seem to be illegal business practices.
Some places get around the overtime issue by treating everyone as salary (exempt) or specifically word the contract to be a set amount of pay with flexible hours. It becomes an issue when either side abuses it.
JordanW: You may notice that most of Disco Stu's posts come off as pretty trollish and juvenile, which is a shame since when he posts art it's usually pretty good. I guess he doesn't care what other people think of him.
I guess i write mindlessly or overly sarcastic at times so sorry for that.
Maybe this was my revenge for being teased with a duke nukem 3d teaser
at age 14 or something like that which looked exeptionally good and was
groundbreaking in many aspects only to be teased every now and then
and to see it end with a not to big bang artwise at age 22.
Shattered childhood dreams so to speak.
I once worked for a studio that stopped paying employees.
Even after reported, the BBB didn't do much about it, and the company was able to continue operating for over 2+ years.
The BBB really holds no power at all. They can really just flag certain companies of holding bad business practices.
It's true, the BBB holds no law enforcement capabilities, however, if a situation isn't resolved and some are pressing legal action. Then it's good to have a strong organization behind you supporting your claim.
Typically most businesses cooperate, as soon as they're in the spotlight for doing wrongful practices.
In your situation, I'm amazed nothing happened.
That's really interesting, and yet disgusting, to hear that they stopped paying employees and the company was able to continue operating for over 2 years.
"I guess i write mindlessly or overly sarcastic at times so sorry for that.
Maybe this was my revenge for being teased with a duke nukem 3d teaser
at age 14 or something like that which looked exeptionally good and was
groundbreaking in many aspects only to be teased every now and then
and to see it end with a not to big bang artwise at age 22.
Shattered childhood dreams so to speak."
Replies
Where I'm from (Norway) the same thing goes on, there's laws of course, but business owners rarely care about them. Funcom (makers of Age of Conan) got some bad press for pushing their employees too hard, the work environment was supposedly pretty bad, long hours, working weekends and holidays was the norm of course, so was unpaid overtime.
If you don't put up with it you have two choices, quit or get fired.
Is anyone surprised by this though? This has been going on in the gaming industry, or in general the IT sector since the beginning.
That's why I charge per polygon.
Yeah, [ame="
Back on topic, I think a union could help but maybe just some labor laws about the industry and some proper enforcement of said laws is all that's needed.
Now FAR be it for me to put words into your mouth, so instead I'll ask. I can totally understand that it's genuine love for what you're doing that pushes you guys on and individual level at Epic to do the things you do. The proof is "in the pudding" as the saying goes. However isn't it also an issue that you feel that you're being fairly rewarded, or at least treated with the respect you believe you deserve by the company?
I think a lot of people hear about the hours you guys put in at Epic and think of it as the same kind of thing that EA and Rockstar are now doing...but you guys love your company, am I right? Working insanely hard for a company that CLEARLY doesn't respect the effort, time, and energy that goes into what you do goes beyond simply being dedicated to your craft...in fact I would go so far as to say that working like that for anyone that doesn't respect your contribution is actually damaging the craft as a whole by tolerating completely bullshit attitudes and misinformed beliefs.
Sorry for the bit of ranting here, just some stuff I've been thinking. Epic just strikes me as largely a place full of dudes that work super hard because they believe in what they're making, and WHO they're making it for. Where as EA and Rockstar are asking guys to jump on grenades and refusing to even acknowledge the sacrifice. If you're working on a golf game as an environment artist no amount of dedication to your craft is going to register on upper management. You're never going to hear "DOOOD! I saw that set of bleachers you made! THAT SHIT IS WICKED!" but you're being expected to put the same amount of effort in as if it were some masterwork that was going to gain you prizes and acclaim.
Fair enough, but they also did just close Pandemic, and a friend of mine worked in their Chicago office when they shut that one down too.
The only reason I wouldn't go back to an EA studio is because I'd have to deal with the threat of layoffs every year.
I can't recall exactly what was said by Mike and I won't speak for moose but, in my experience at Epic I have never thought our situation has even come close to the stuff mentioned at R* and EA. Even if you take out the fact that we love the games we make and the craft, my work experience has been awesome, especially compared to work situations in my past.
I don't want people to think we're somehow in a similar situation and the only difference is we're making something "cool".
Hmmm, I'm certainly no expert on the subject, but I understand that the auto companies had a lot more to do with it than the unions. :P
in terms of rockstar, I have heard on bully at R* Vancouver they were crunching for close to a year of massive OT. seems to just be the mentality of you gotta be hardcore to work there, really kinda lame and not hardcore at all.
Right it just seems like whenever this topic comes up Mikes comments always get dragged out, and I was just saying that I thought it was really a completely different animal.
Right, it's probably more of a localized managerial issue than the fact that all of EA or all of Rockstar is some horrible place to work. It's easy to forget when talking about giant corporate monoliths like EA that they're still ultimately made up of the people that it employs. I've now worked at two companies where I watched the management steer the company straight into the metaphorical iceberg despite months of cries from the lower decks about the impending collision. There really should be more accountability for bad management...but it seems like a lot of those dudes step out of one burning ship right into another.
Well.... Another reason they're hated on is for the habit of buying popular studios, promising gold and creative freedom, then six months to a year later they shut them down. Just merging a lot of small studios into one big isn't doing much good from a gamer's point of view. Historically it's smaller studios that's been producing more unique and interesting games. But if a game doesn't sell millions of copies EA don't give a shit about them.
Then there's the hostile takeover attempts...
Don't forget the Hausers...
Yeah blaming the downfall of the american auto makers on the unions is so disingenuous it's ridiculous. It's a combination of the management making horrible decisions, sticking with giant gas guzzling cars when the market shifted to more fuel efficient ones, and them being caught with nothing to provide. American car maker CEOs make 40x what their EU and asian counterparts do, yet are unable to provide the same level of competence in their leadership.
Now you could possibly argue that Unions fairly negotiated for proper healthcare and retirement funds, something that every other 1st world nation provides at the state level, rather than privately, and that ballooned costs per car, but that's hardly the fault of the workers using their negotiating power to get the same treatment as their foreign counterparts.
Unions are like number 50 on the list of why the US car makers have failed, and even if they were number one, a single failed union doesn't prove the idea is faulty. There are so many more problems (as we clearly see) when all of the power is in the hands of the companies.
The level of brainwashing that the corporate world has managed to convinced Joe Sixpack to hate unions is really impressive. Depressing, but impressive.
Some good stuff about it for those who are interested here: http://www.chomsky.info/talks/19960413.htm
Quick excerpts:
According to the US Labor Department, the destruction of the unions as been the main factor in the decline of real wages that has continued since the Reagan era. Health and safety standards in the workplace have also deteriorated: there are laws, but they're simply not enforced, so the number of industrial accidents has risen sharply in the past ten years. Then there is the effect of the decline of unions on democracy: the unions are one of the few means by which ordinary people can enter the political arena. Finally, there's a psychological effect. The destruction of the unions is part of a much more general effort to privatize aspirations, to eliminate solidarity, the sense that we're all in it together, that we care for one another.
So the propaganda system is designed, has been for years, to demonize unions, which makes a lot of sense. Unions are a democratizing force in which the mass- one of the few ways in which the large mass of the population can pool limited resources and work together for some common good. So that's that bad thing: democracy. So naturally you want to demonize and destroy unions, and that's been going on forever.
And the other leading propaganda theme -- and I don't mean by that, you know, like, just what you hear in the newspapers- read in the newspapers and so on, like the entertainment industry and television and everything else -- is anti-politics. Meaning, setting up a picture -- it's called anti-politics -- the picture -- but a very specific kind of anti-politics -- you have to establish the image, you know, get into people's heads, that the Government is the enemy- the Federal Government. State Governments are okay, because they can be sort of controlled by business anyway, so it doesn't matter. But the Federal Government is sometimes a little too big to be pushed around, so it's the enemy. And it cannot be, nobody can dream of the possibility, that the Government is of, by, and for the people. That's impossible. It's an enemy to be hated and feared.
I thought art was such a specialised thing anyway. Its funny how art can get such overinflated prices for percievably completely worthless things, and yet when its done specifically as a job its completely undervalued.
But perhaps that is in part due to the artists faults, their somewhat unique phsycology and they undervalue themselves, and the perception that they should just be doing it for the art.
The world is going to be so much poorer intellectually when he passes. I wish he could live forever.
Oh yeah, another thing to note, the article was written in 1995. Crazy how early he sees these things.
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The whole video was decent, of course he has a bit of a slant (who doesn't?) but I agree with the whole UAW thing.
@Poop: I see your point. Saying that the UAW destroyed the Industry was misplaced on my part. And they did fight for worker rights and level'd the playing field. But I think it's gotten out of control now.
As an example, let's say Junior artist salary is set at 60k USD a year. Any company wanting to hire junior artists could easily look this up, and know what they have to pay. If they try to hire junior artists for less, it only takes one to let the union rep know, and he can then contact that company and tell them that every union member won't be coming in, unless they get in line with the agreed upon standards.
Once a union gets going, they actually have money to pay out to workers while striking I believe, but I'm not 100% certain. Anyway, having your workers go on strike would be devastating to this industry, slipping a holiday deadline, etc. So I imagine it would only take one strike before a lot of movement would happen.
I mean, it's most likely not going to happen, as we are by and large treated fairly well, and it takes really abusive treatment for people to band together in the numbers needed (coal miners, wal mart workers, etc), but that's how it would work if we did.
We were still ridiculously low paid even being part of a union. My first salary was 4,080 pounds per year ( 1987)
Things like consistent pay scales would be great though
TBH though I can't see many people going for the union option. Seems successive governments have made it very hard to stand up for your rights.
If it did happen they would just relocate to india or china.
Boeing, has a huge union and it is very powerful here in the northwest. They recently went on strike at a very critical time to shore up benefits so that when boeing started cutting costs they didn't burn the workers. Boeing being a year behind on its dream liner couldn't afford a strike so it caved and ponied up for the higher cost to keep benefits the same.
As a result of the strike the company is building its newest plane "the future of the company" in South Carolina where the union recently disintegrated in order to attract Boeing. Which is something GM did with Saturn and that worked out oh so well...
I'm not saying the unions are evil and need to go, but they do need to be adept at predicting what the company will do as a response. In this case I think they made a really stupid move striking over small things like reducing dependent medical coverage from age 24 down to 21. It wasn't even dropping the dependants it was reducing their coverage down to a level equal to an average plan they'll have of they get a regular job.
And yea Ruz is right, it needs to be a global effort and no one gets a job without joining the union. That just won't happen...
the animators are always afraid of it coming back to them, it's driven into our minds that the professional world is small, so news of your stool pigeoning gets around and you don't get hired for that next job by the same or another studio... from what some people have said, some game studios are like that too. It's not that they don't want to, it's because they are threatened not to, either by the way the industry is or by what they've been told has happened before. It's a terrible way to work, especially long term as you always feel that axe swinging over your head. Bend over now or bend over later.
With the forums going in a new direction with "news" and other related articles on the industry. I'd be interested in seeing something about The best/worst companies to work for rated by Polycount. Could be a yearly poll, or evaluation of companies.
It would benefit most that are not familiar with certain companies, and could help to prevent a lot of heartache.
I personally would hate to see the focus shift from game art to industry monitoring/politics.
What if it was kept to a positive view point.
The best companies to work for, and why?
It could help other employees/management take a look at their own company, and have a better understanding for what makes a great company.
this.
I agree, this community's focus should be art.
I mean, there are great companies out there that treat their employees with respect. I would even venture that a happy staff is a staff that produces the best work with the most efficiency (just look at Pixar). Is there pressure from the upper echelon to squeeze the laborer now? We all know that companies HATE to see their bottom line move lower so they tend to look for quick fixes. Today, we are all held at gunpoint by company shareholders who can make or break a company if it doesn't perform better each quarter.
My final thought is that we should focus on art, but never forget that we do it for a job... or at least hope to do it for a job. But if every employer has a branding iron to mark us if we don't cower before them, then isn't it our duty to protect ourselves? It also seems like there should be laws against these kinds of policies anyways.
etb342, there's laws against all sorts of things, doesn't mean they're respected.
"I personally would hate to see the focus shift from game art to industry monitoring/politics."
Hasn't this happened already a long time ago? That's why we see so few original games, it's mostly rehashed IP and safe bets. No one wants to risk money. This is a business after all, the only one who cares about art is the artist.
From my understanding of seeing game reviews and articles and such, it is mostly the indie developers, working on smaller platforms like the DS, WiiWare, XboxLive, and even iPhone, who are the ones making the more original, 'risky' games right now. No, a AAA title, or even any console title, won't be likey to try rocking the boat too much, but there are lots of outlets available to try something new nowadays, it seems (As long as the primary concern isn't about having the most ultra-realsitic graphics).
I just want to see enforcement of already existing labour laws.
Most of what you guys are bringing up, seem to be illegal business practices.
The Better Business Bureau of Canada deals with these situations. They are in the business of up holding standards for workplace environments.
As said on the webpage:
BBB is an unbiased organization that sets and upholds high standards for fair and honest business behavior.
Every BBB Accredited Business is monitored for continuing adherence to BBB standards.
All it takes is one conversation with the Bureau.
Former Staffer Compares Rockstar NY To The Eye Of Sauron.
Well looking at the art they released after working on it for 10 years they
didnt work toooo hard.
I once worked for a studio that stopped paying employees.
Even after reported, the BBB didn't do much about it, and the company was able to continue operating for over 2+ years.
The BBB really holds no power at all. They can really just flag certain companies of holding bad business practices.
The laws are only as strong as the people that uphold them, abide by them, know them and expose others who break them.
Way to sound like a douche.
Maybe this was my revenge for being teased with a duke nukem 3d teaser
at age 14 or something like that which looked exeptionally good and was
groundbreaking in many aspects only to be teased every now and then
and to see it end with a not to big bang artwise at age 22.
Shattered childhood dreams so to speak.
It's true, the BBB holds no law enforcement capabilities, however, if a situation isn't resolved and some are pressing legal action. Then it's good to have a strong organization behind you supporting your claim.
Typically most businesses cooperate, as soon as they're in the spotlight for doing wrongful practices.
In your situation, I'm amazed nothing happened.
That's really interesting, and yet disgusting, to hear that they stopped paying employees and the company was able to continue operating for over 2 years.
Maybe this was my revenge for being teased with a duke nukem 3d teaser
at age 14 or something like that which looked exeptionally good and was
groundbreaking in many aspects only to be teased every now and then
and to see it end with a not to big bang artwise at age 22.
Shattered childhood dreams so to speak."
Tragic, AND traumatic. :sadpanda: