I guess i write mindlessly or overly sarcastic at times so sorry for that.
Maybe this was my revenge for being teased with a duke nukem 3d teaser
at age 14 or something like that which looked exeptionally good and was
groundbreaking in many aspects only to be teased every now and then
and to see it end with a not to big bang artwise at age 22.
Shattered childhood dreams so to speak.
Shattered childhood dreams appears to be what this industry is all about.
Events like these raise the awareness of quality of life issues in the industry and among the public. The IGDA has made clear its stance on excessive uncompensated overtime, and this instance represents an opportunity for reflection across the industry. Particularly with the stresses imposed by the declining economy, game studios, like other independent businesses, are under increased pressure and therefore are more susceptible to production concerns.
Some unions (electricians, ironworkers) have a market recovery fund. During the recession, all of the union members give a percentage of their paycheques to the fund. Union contractors (companies that hire from the union) can access the market recovery fund to bid on jobs.
How many people in the videogame industry have been laid off in the past year due to the recession? If there was a union of videogame industry workers, these layoffs may have been prevented by the union assisting developers to bid on projects using market recovery funds.
I think people don't realize that unions don't just protect workers, but also help businesses that work with them compete.
i'm starting to think that managemnt is the eweakest link in game dev...but on the other hand it could just be the results of them screwing up are much more dramatic than of other employees...
even though I'm not sure I believe all of this, but I've got a bad feeling that sort of a damb has taken a leak and we'll sure be hearing more aboot it...
...yer mom. Actually, the IGDA itself doesn't really DO anything by itself.
The IGDA relies on the volunteer work provided by countless members. The IGDA empowers everyone with the means to positively affect their career and the industry. Please contact us if you would like to take advantage of, or dive into any of the above initiatives.
If you don't make issues known to management/hr, then there is no issue. Public complaints, while informative, seem to be less effective in the long term. With the EA spouse thing a couple years ago, all it seemed to change was who got put back on hourly pay as opposed to salary. The mismanagement, and crunchings stay the same.
It's always the wives who make this stuff public. Soon they will start to make rules about not hiring married people.
And who ever said the games industry needed better middle and upper management? Seems like they are doing a fine job getting the most for their money out of the workforce...
I once had to do two weeks (give or take a couple days) straight of crunch in QA. Each day being 12 hour shifts, mandatory. It was harsh, even though we were just play testing, and we didn't accomplish much that we couldn't have otherwise. They also hired 15+ people to come in and work for two of those days then laid them all off.
And who ever said the games industry needed better middle and upper management? Seems like they are doing a fine job getting the most for their money out of the workforce...
a good management isn't about pressing the most money out of your "workers" but to support them in working efficient. And: Knowledge of what size of a project your team can do in what time and estimating and controlling that realistic within existing and legitimate work-times.
To make a long story short: Good management is anti-proportional to the amount of crunchtime needed.
"The game's story just went through another total re-write earlier this month (the third that I am aware of in the past two years)"
I'm wondering how bad their planning is. I've heard of games hiring writers only at the end just to attempt to make a story that sort of fits and works for the game.
Well that was over quick, I'll keep my ears up if anyone in Vancouver has the balls to put one together, though in reality they'd probably just close the studio since it's quite a bit smaller.
It's always the wives who make this stuff public. Soon they will start to make rules about not hiring married people.
It's illegal in the US to inquire as to an applicants marital status as well as to whether or not they have kids, thank god!
Apparently Rocktard management is really enjoying the publicity, and is getting a kick out of their new image as a greedy, exploitive, repressive corporation:
And this whole time I was giving Activision credit for filling the void that EA has left in the industry. Now it would appear that Rocktard is in the running as well...
I find that 'hilarious' new wallpaper to be in pretty poor taste actually. I know that Rockstar like to revel in their self-appointed status as industry badboys but you can't spin mistreating your employees into an amusing, attention-grabbing story. What are they going to do if someone files a sexual harrassment charge against them - put up a series of close-to-the-bone, titilating images?
Rockstar should be doing everything possible to rectify the situation at San Diego and improve their image, not laughing at the people who make their company what it is when they dare to criticise the shameful working practices.
The more that these big companies exploit their workforce, the more they make the case for unionization. The state of things in our industry is in a way alot like the pre union manufacturing industry.
The more that these big companies exploit their workforce, the more they make the case for unionization. The state of things in our industry is in a way alot like the pre union manufacturing industry.
I agree, and the sooner the better that is fixed, its just so unfare on everyone having no sort of protection to fallback on, I'm going to talk to some of my friends about this who work in the indsutry in my country, about starting a union, although they may be able to just join a reguler workers union or have one who would protect them, I'm going to look into this.
The more that these big companies exploit their workforce, the more they make the case for unionization. The state of things in our industry is in a way alot like the pre union manufacturing industry.
Yeah and we all see just how well the most of the US manufacturing industry is doing now.
That's the saddest thing about this whole situation. In another ten years other countries will be happy to take these jobs at a fraction of the cost and by then their work quality could very well be up to the standards needed. It's a really sad thing to see happening, I don't know what the future holds, all I can do is keep working and try and improve myself the best I can.
Work place problems like the ones at Rockstar are terrible, but lets be honest, tons of other studios do the same thing. It's not saying it it's, just the opposite in fact. Sadly it can come with the job, like a lot of salary positions in many many industries.
Some of the comments people post about the situation scare me.
I HATE the current mentality about the game industry.
Do and say what they want in any situation.
I love you RockStar.
The spoiled brats making these complaints have not had to endure a true hard day of work. Twelve hour work days? Six days a week? Boohoo! Try working in a food manufactuer warehouse. We have twelve+ hour days, seven days a week at what I am sure is half their pay....all to feed their fat, lazy, spoiled faces.
Ya dude, i agree with paladin. whinning would be out of the question for me if I got to make money playing video games. Props to Rockstar for being Awesome. RDR is going to trump GTA.
With a few exceptions, like Naughty Dog? You get to make video games for a living, you pay a price.
Why are all of these devs acting like their being deprived? It's not like you're doing extremely hard work. Go work in the Alberta oil fields for a day, that'll quit your whining.
Yeah, but to be fair. For like 2 months after the project they are all going to be sitting around playing World of Warcraft in their cubicles.
Yeah, not to toot my own horn, but this is starting to sound like a lot of whining from some disgruntled employees. My first job out of college was for an internet development company, before the internet was really developed. On at least two projects, I never went home - not once - for 3 months. Now, I worked in NYC, and I did get out of the office on occasion. Those occasions were: to shower at the gym downstairs in the morning and to have a beer or two each night at the bar across the street. And ya know what? I absolutely LOVED my job. I couldn't do that forever, but I worked with that company for five years and LOVED it.
I just ended a six-month stint on a job here in DC that had me working at least 14-16 hour days, at least 6 days a week, and it was one of the best and most rewarding experiences I've ever had.
So I'm thinking these people need to get real. If those are the realities of the job, and you don't like it, leave. I'm sure there are tons of hungry, energized young programmers and designers who'd love the experience and wouldn't blink an eye at the demands of the work.
Game developers work hard, wife complains, world ends. Yawn.
Wow. That's amazing... really...
Apparently, getting to work on games is your own reward, so any hardship, no matter how degrading, stressing, and harmful on your physical and mental health, should be tolerated to, you know, MAKE COOL SHIT HAPPEN IN GAMES, wooohoo!!
No one was saying any of those other jobs aren't hard, unrewarding, and don't pay as well as they should... but way to make us sound like a bunch of spoiled brats.
Gah! Why am I getting angry about internet ignorance... Anyway, no one should have to be treated like garbage at any job. Ok, it happens and always will somewhere, but let's try to improve it where we can...!
Anyway, if you'll excuse me, I have to get back to my two-months of playing WoW in my cubicle...
And working in an office all day, every day, can be a harder job than any physical demanding one. Everyone is different though, but manual labor calms me down. Office work, deadlines, and all that other shit, can build up stress like a motherfucker though.
The attitude spoken of above, of how working in the games industry should be its own reward, that's only people who isn't in the industry speaking, and even those will change their mind after a few crunch-time sessions.
A job is a job in whatever field. It's not fun and games. That's what hobbies and after-work hours is for, you know, the things you do when you're not working.
Yeah and we all see just how well the most of the US manufacturing industry is doing now.
The downfall of manufacturing in the US is much more highly related to the deregulation of the financial sector, which resulted in a huge shift to finances, as it's more profitable than manufacturing. It has very little to do with unions. If the financial sector was properly regulated (thanks Reagan, you bastard!) it wouldn't have the ridiculous profit margins, and more manufacturing industries and jobs would exist.
Germany's economy relies very heavily on small and medium sized manufacturing companies, and it has survived proper working regulations just fine.
Those people who say making games is its own reward must be mad. I've attempted to make my own games and its hard work. You have to struggle to start with of how something may be done, and then you get down to the physical action of whatever, but theres no gaurantee that, that work will be worth anything, you might have to redo or re-evalute for whatever reason.
There is lots of evidence that more mental work is harder in its own way than physical work, its easier to rest your body after a hard days work than it is your mind, unless your practiced in meditation.
Its gotta be one of the hardest creative industries, because you start of with nothing, there's no defined rules or precreated assets like the movies have. I'm amazed developers are even able to make games, within a prescripted two years.
Making games is nothing like playing games, even the dummest turd must know that.
The downfall of manufacturing in the US is much more highly related to the deregulation of the financial sector, which resulted in a huge shift to finances, as it's more profitable than manufacturing. It has very little to do with unions. If the financial sector was properly regulated (thanks Reagan, you bastard!) it wouldn't have the ridiculous profit margins, and more manufacturing industries and jobs would exist.
Germany's economy relies very heavily on small and medium sized manufacturing companies, and it has survived proper working regulations just fine.
Add to it that deregulation also allowed companies to shift manufacturing to countries where it is cheaper without forcing them to uphold the same human rights and labor laws that previously governed that same company.
Some of the comments people post about the situation scare me.
I HATE the current mentality about the game industry.
I find this is a similar attitude to what people say about animators or graphic designers etc... any artistic field..
you get to do art all day, that's fun! the reward is the job! you're creative, it comes naturally to you, so we shouldn't have to pay you anything for such a fun job.
yeah okay asshole, fun pays my bills and I can save fun to put a roof over my head and food in my stomach when I fucking retire.
A union would never happen, much like the IGDA, a group would form and 99.9% of the members would bitch about how it doesn't do enough for them while contributing nothing themselves.
Not to get all dramatic over it, but the day our industry has to resort to an union is the day I'm out. We're all smart people, some of the more reasonable people on the planet(except when we're on the internet) I just sort of have this human hope that the industry smartens the fuck up and creates the kind of business we all wanted to work in.
The bigger the industry (and the larger the studios) the more likely companies are going to abuse employees.
Small studios can be crappy, too. Last year I worked a contract job at a very small non-game studio and working conditions were far from great... not to mention getting the shaft regarding contractually obligated pay. If anything, really small studios are ripe for abuse because they don't have the financial capital to weather any kind of crisis.
It's even more unfortunate when you and your co-workers disagree about standing together and equaling the playing field. Your choices are either (1) quit and screw over your co-workers (you not only like them, but chances are good you'll run into them again a few years down the road), or (2) suck it up, finish the project, and move on. I wish I had Murdoc's optimism but my limited experience leads me to believe most people will not stand up to their employers.
I never really tire of saying to people, "Ok. So animation is ACTUALLY a lot of work... This is why: There are 24 frames in a second. So, for each of said 24 frames, you need to make 24 drawings to fill a second. And that's just ONE second of an animation."
And then I watch their mouths drop
(Ok, I KNOW this is kinda exaggerated... I mean, who animates on ones? It's more likely 12 drawings a second, and inbetweens are much easier to do than key frames... but I figure, there's already too much misunderstanding going on, let's give ourselves the benefit of the doubt this time :P )
I use similar examples when explaining video games... "You see every crate on the ground, every building, every box, really, EVERYTHING...? Someone had to actaully MAKE all that. A lot of someone's, actaully..."
You know what I would like to see? A developer video showing how they work on games... Even today it feels like we are misinforming the public about our work so I dont blame them, altough its still disturbing with those comments...
I use similar examples when explaining video games... "You see every crate on the ground, every building, every box, really, EVERYTHING...? Someone had to actaully MAKE all that. A lot of someone's, actaully..."
This is what I tell someone.
"I blocked out a the model with cubes and cylinders.
I then modeled a sub-div version.
(sub-div basically means it still retains it shape when you add divisions, and its essential to control the divisions by having a strong understanding of edge flow and topology)
Sculpted that in zbrush.
(A program that simulates sculpting by subdividing the mesh into tens of millions of polygons, (a character in a game is normally around 8k))
Re-topologized it in 3D coat.
(make the final lowpoly mesh for the game)
Baked the normal, AO, and cavity maps in xnormal.
(Normal maps captures surface detail in the xyz axises and bakes that down into a texture, Ambient occlusion basically simulates how light bounces and darkens detail in those areas of the texture)
Painted the diffuse and spec in photoshop.
Added more detail to the normal map using crazy bump and the diffuse.
Used marmoset toolbag to preview the textures to make sure everything was looking good and make tweaks.
Finally brought into the unreal engine, set up the materials, and various other settings before baking the lighting.
One object done, a thousand left to go. And that's not even talking about the characters, animation, scripting, particle effects, simulation, lighting, skinning, etc etc.
You know what I would like to see? A developer video showing how they work on games... Even today it feels like we are misinforming the public about our work so I dont blame them, altough its still disturbing with those comments...
Someone needs to make a real good documentary about games.
Someone needs to make a real good documentary about games.
you would need plenty of that "undercover" filming work, since all the bad companies would refuse to show anything and their workers will be shut up with the fear of being fired for complaining or for breaking nda's.
All the doco's we usually see from companies are promotional and agreed by everyone because the company is generally good and doesn't fear the publicity.
Replies
Shattered childhood dreams appears to be what this industry is all about.
That's a good name for a new game studio :P
hmm I wonder what their slogan would be .. ..
5 syllables is a lot for a studio name. Guess you could call it SCD.
True, and/or Shattered Dreams... or Shattered.... or just plain ol' Shat
Bend Over!
:::
IGDA spoke out.
http://us1.campaign-archive.com/?u=d239b70fc6659f7d5fc1e4bd8&id=e994e92488&e=60fbbc7277
How many people in the videogame industry have been laid off in the past year due to the recession? If there was a union of videogame industry workers, these layoffs may have been prevented by the union assisting developers to bid on projects using market recovery funds.
I think people don't realize that unions don't just protect workers, but also help businesses that work with them compete.
Yikes... good luck to him/her.
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/01/14/source-max-payne-3-development-allegedly-also-suffering-from-mi/
pardon my french
i'm starting to think that managemnt is the eweakest link in game dev...but on the other hand it could just be the results of them screwing up are much more dramatic than of other employees...
even though I'm not sure I believe all of this, but I've got a bad feeling that sort of a damb has taken a leak and we'll sure be hearing more aboot it...
...yer mom. Actually, the IGDA itself doesn't really DO anything by itself.
The IGDA relies on the volunteer work provided by countless members. The IGDA empowers everyone with the means to positively affect their career and the industry. Please contact us if you would like to take advantage of, or dive into any of the above initiatives.
If you don't make issues known to management/hr, then there is no issue. Public complaints, while informative, seem to be less effective in the long term. With the EA spouse thing a couple years ago, all it seemed to change was who got put back on hourly pay as opposed to salary. The mismanagement, and crunchings stay the same.
And who ever said the games industry needed better middle and upper management? Seems like they are doing a fine job getting the most for their money out of the workforce...
I once had to do two weeks (give or take a couple days) straight of crunch in QA. Each day being 12 hour shifts, mandatory. It was harsh, even though we were just play testing, and we didn't accomplish much that we couldn't have otherwise. They also hired 15+ people to come in and work for two of those days then laid them all off.
a good management isn't about pressing the most money out of your "workers" but to support them in working efficient. And: Knowledge of what size of a project your team can do in what time and estimating and controlling that realistic within existing and legitimate work-times.
To make a long story short: Good management is anti-proportional to the amount of crunchtime needed.
*cough*
"The game's story just went through another total re-write earlier this month (the third that I am aware of in the past two years)"
I'm wondering how bad their planning is. I've heard of games hiring writers only at the end just to attempt to make a story that sort of fits and works for the game.
Well that was over quick, I'll keep my ears up if anyone in Vancouver has the balls to put one together, though in reality they'd probably just close the studio since it's quite a bit smaller.
"If you would prefer to speak to someone in confidence outside of Rockstar, please contact Chris Casazza, who oversees HR for Take Two"
Is this code for "If you dont like, go get a job somewhere else" :poly121:
EDIT - opps my bad, forgot about the association between the 2...duh
It's illegal in the US to inquire as to an applicants marital status as well as to whether or not they have kids, thank god!
Apparently Rocktard management is really enjoying the publicity, and is getting a kick out of their new image as a greedy, exploitive, repressive corporation:
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3177629
And this whole time I was giving Activision credit for filling the void that EA has left in the industry. Now it would appear that Rocktard is in the running as well...
Oops didn't catch that part, lol.
Rockstar should be doing everything possible to rectify the situation at San Diego and improve their image, not laughing at the people who make their company what it is when they dare to criticise the shameful working practices.
I agree, and the sooner the better that is fixed, its just so unfare on everyone having no sort of protection to fallback on, I'm going to talk to some of my friends about this who work in the indsutry in my country, about starting a union, although they may be able to just join a reguler workers union or have one who would protect them, I'm going to look into this.
Yeah and we all see just how well the most of the US manufacturing industry is doing now.
That's the saddest thing about this whole situation. In another ten years other countries will be happy to take these jobs at a fraction of the cost and by then their work quality could very well be up to the standards needed. It's a really sad thing to see happening, I don't know what the future holds, all I can do is keep working and try and improve myself the best I can.
Work place problems like the ones at Rockstar are terrible, but lets be honest, tons of other studios do the same thing. It's not saying it it's, just the opposite in fact. Sadly it can come with the job, like a lot of salary positions in many many industries.
I HATE the current mentality about the game industry.
Apparently, getting to work on games is your own reward, so any hardship, no matter how degrading, stressing, and harmful on your physical and mental health, should be tolerated to, you know, MAKE COOL SHIT HAPPEN IN GAMES, wooohoo!!
No one was saying any of those other jobs aren't hard, unrewarding, and don't pay as well as they should... but way to make us sound like a bunch of spoiled brats.
Gah! Why am I getting angry about internet ignorance... Anyway, no one should have to be treated like garbage at any job. Ok, it happens and always will somewhere, but let's try to improve it where we can...!
Anyway, if you'll excuse me, I have to get back to my two-months of playing WoW in my cubicle...
And working in an office all day, every day, can be a harder job than any physical demanding one. Everyone is different though, but manual labor calms me down. Office work, deadlines, and all that other shit, can build up stress like a motherfucker though.
The attitude spoken of above, of how working in the games industry should be its own reward, that's only people who isn't in the industry speaking, and even those will change their mind after a few crunch-time sessions.
A job is a job in whatever field. It's not fun and games. That's what hobbies and after-work hours is for, you know, the things you do when you're not working.
[ame]
People actually believe this shit is how its done.
Grand, now im gonna go tighten my animation up with an analogue stick, lol.
The downfall of manufacturing in the US is much more highly related to the deregulation of the financial sector, which resulted in a huge shift to finances, as it's more profitable than manufacturing. It has very little to do with unions. If the financial sector was properly regulated (thanks Reagan, you bastard!) it wouldn't have the ridiculous profit margins, and more manufacturing industries and jobs would exist.
Germany's economy relies very heavily on small and medium sized manufacturing companies, and it has survived proper working regulations just fine.
There is lots of evidence that more mental work is harder in its own way than physical work, its easier to rest your body after a hard days work than it is your mind, unless your practiced in meditation.
Its gotta be one of the hardest creative industries, because you start of with nothing, there's no defined rules or precreated assets like the movies have. I'm amazed developers are even able to make games, within a prescripted two years.
Making games is nothing like playing games, even the dummest turd must know that.
I find this is a similar attitude to what people say about animators or graphic designers etc... any artistic field..
you get to do art all day, that's fun! the reward is the job! you're creative, it comes naturally to you, so we shouldn't have to pay you anything for such a fun job.
yeah okay asshole, fun pays my bills and I can save fun to put a roof over my head and food in my stomach when I fucking retire.
I'm not bitter... not at all... serenity now.
:poly142:
Small studios can be crappy, too. Last year I worked a contract job at a very small non-game studio and working conditions were far from great... not to mention getting the shaft regarding contractually obligated pay. If anything, really small studios are ripe for abuse because they don't have the financial capital to weather any kind of crisis.
It's even more unfortunate when you and your co-workers disagree about standing together and equaling the playing field. Your choices are either (1) quit and screw over your co-workers (you not only like them, but chances are good you'll run into them again a few years down the road), or (2) suck it up, finish the project, and move on. I wish I had Murdoc's optimism but my limited experience leads me to believe most people will not stand up to their employers.
I agree with you totally ZacD ,try doing this for years on end, bet your opinion would change real fast.
And then I watch their mouths drop
(Ok, I KNOW this is kinda exaggerated... I mean, who animates on ones? It's more likely 12 drawings a second, and inbetweens are much easier to do than key frames... but I figure, there's already too much misunderstanding going on, let's give ourselves the benefit of the doubt this time :P )
I use similar examples when explaining video games... "You see every crate on the ground, every building, every box, really, EVERYTHING...? Someone had to actaully MAKE all that. A lot of someone's, actaully..."
This is what I tell someone.
"I blocked out a the model with cubes and cylinders.
I then modeled a sub-div version.
(sub-div basically means it still retains it shape when you add divisions, and its essential to control the divisions by having a strong understanding of edge flow and topology)
Sculpted that in zbrush.
(A program that simulates sculpting by subdividing the mesh into tens of millions of polygons, (a character in a game is normally around 8k))
Re-topologized it in 3D coat.
(make the final lowpoly mesh for the game)
Baked the normal, AO, and cavity maps in xnormal.
(Normal maps captures surface detail in the xyz axises and bakes that down into a texture, Ambient occlusion basically simulates how light bounces and darkens detail in those areas of the texture)
Painted the diffuse and spec in photoshop.
Added more detail to the normal map using crazy bump and the diffuse.
Used marmoset toolbag to preview the textures to make sure everything was looking good and make tweaks.
Finally brought into the unreal engine, set up the materials, and various other settings before baking the lighting.
One object done, a thousand left to go. And that's not even talking about the characters, animation, scripting, particle effects, simulation, lighting, skinning, etc etc.
And this is me barely scratching the surface."
Someone needs to make a real good documentary about games.
you would need plenty of that "undercover" filming work, since all the bad companies would refuse to show anything and their workers will be shut up with the fear of being fired for complaining or for breaking nda's.
All the doco's we usually see from companies are promotional and agreed by everyone because the company is generally good and doesn't fear the publicity.