I don't know how could I miss this one. Looks great, but I would place the shirt folds right where the elbows start and make the forearms more buffed. Just do a quick test and you will know which way looks better.
definatley looks better than before Swizz.
I dunno about making the bandana red though, I think it would look better with something more contrasty, similar to the pants maybe?
Swizzle, give him some scruffyness in the beardarea + his belly area too much red.. that area lacks something (dunno what, but it needs a little more magic dust)
Needs a more muscular torso.
The sniper back then was a real man, all buff and such.
Yeah, I thought of that, but I'm also trying to find common ground between the new concept and the actual player model. I'm gonna draw a more muscular version of it and see how it turns out. Thanks.
Swizzle, I didn't mean on a particular model. I meant globally. Shifts on all the colors to give it a unique 1850's feel, while still retaining the principles laid down in TF2. All the colors would convey the same information regarding team, they just wouldn't be the exact shades of red and blue.
Swizzle: I'm not a fan of the faces you're making at all. Team Fortress draws on some sharp stylisation that, I think, comes from Moby Francke's work. Your work is altogether more round, and not quite as daring.
Load up the Heavy in the model editor. From the front, his head is shaped like a flattened triangle. In general, the whole head tapers relentlessly. From the side, the back has a similar slope, while the front has some (remarkably) sharp features. Prominent, but small cheek bones, lips jutting out, sharp chin, heavy brows...
i'm kind of disappointed there's no austrian knots on the soldier's sleeves and no epaulets.
I'm kind of tempted to contribute somehow, but im probably already doing too many things
the kepi is spot on though, and exactly what I'd have done
Zwebbie, I think you have an important point. While I don't necessarily think I should go the direction of that paintover because I think it's too close to the existing heavy design, I think it does illustrate something that's lacking in this guy and something that I definitely need to work on.
Here are the side-view silhouettes of the normal TF2 characters. I didn't include the frontal silhouettes because they are, in general, not as distinctive as profile views.
I need to figure out what they have in common that makes them look like a TF2 character. So far my list is somewhat inconclusive, but indicative of where I might improve.
Their noses tend to line up with their foreheads.
Their jawlines, at least in profile, seem quite square (but their chins are all different).
Their brow ridges are pronounced.
They tend to have underbites or pronounced lower lips.
Now for things that are inconsistent:
Not all head shapes are similar; the scout's is square whereas the others tend to be more round
Nose shapes are wildly varied and inconsistent across the board
No two chins are anything alike
Neck thickness is apparently dependent on the walking speed of the class or some other weird variable
Now, here are the profiles of the ones I've made:
It's obvious that I need to work on the profiles to make them fit TF2 better. The worst offender is, of course, the heavy. He looks bulbous and melty.
What can I do to improve? I've come up with a few general guidelines, but I'd love to see some input from you guys.
My guidelines so far:
Observation, observation, observation! Examine existing TF2 designs for inspiration.
Be more daring. I've been fairly meek with my approach to these designs, so I need to step outside of my comfort zone and do something scary. Even if it doesn't work, I'll have learned something useful from it.
Try to determine what makes a class recognizable and then push that attribute farther than you think is safe. You can always get more modest with designs.
Don't be afraid of basic shapes like circles, squares and triangles, especially the latter two. Sharp angles mean added interest.
What would you guys add to that list of guidelines? What am I missing here? If I want to make new classes that don't just replicate existing ones in design, if not function, how should I go about doing it?
I'd love to hear some feedback from you guys on this.
the first thing that stands out to me, is that in the tf profiles, almost all the sloping curves end in a sharp point, except for Deoms lips. I know some of this is due to poly constraints but it still seems fairly deliberate to me.
while yours do have distinct looks, it's mostly amongst themselves, and mostly just the soldier (and moslty cause of his beard and hair). I;d suggest just spending some time with a lattice and nudging stuff around until you get something that really stands out.
I'd also take another look at Heavy's body. I think it suffers from the same as the heads in that its quite good and reads easily, there ain't much too it.
I'd actually suggest having a look at some Justice League Unlimited (the cartoon) and see how they tackle different big guy body types. The style isn't so far removed that it would look out of place.
Another thing in common that I could find, fiddling with the original 3D models, is that they all have the cheeks really sucked in. They don't necessarily have very protuding cheek bones (like coming out of the face boundaries), but sucked in cheeks and sharp jawlines. Also, the heads kind of taper in as they go to the front viewed from the top. Like if a cartoon got his face sucked in by a vacuum cleaner if you know what I mean. Just a final detail, I think those with narrower heads have longer noses and those with broader heads have shorter noses and everything in between.
The facial planes are too flat, so you dont get a extreme distinctive shape. In the TF2 designs, the mouths are the smallest detail. These guys don't talk, they act. In looking at the Heavy, his chin is very pronounced...(leads with the chin like a boxer) his nose would be more designed to fit with his nationality. And of course the whole "Russian Bear" thing. Were I to do a John Henry like character, I'd give him weight. On the back of his neck the roundness of his jowl. His lower lip would be more full, his forehead sloped back. It combines the largeness of a man who works the railspikes out in a hot desert with his ancestry. I hate to say it, but when I think of an 1850's Heavy, the idea of a Chaingang come to mind.....
Here's my 2 cents on a possible direction you can go with the profile to give him more personality.
Just a thought. It's what I envision a guy looks like who wears a bandana in 1850.
Anyways, I think it's pretty impressive how you aren't satisfied and are going the extra mile and beyond to try and live up to your own expectations, the research and the work ethic is really just awesome and I hope you get hired by Valve or whoever can use your talents to the fullest because you deserve it.
Really helpful advice, guys! It's definitely made me take a second look at these and I think I've gotten a better perspective on what I'm doing.
I've been pulling chunks of this around for a while now and I think it's looking more in line with TF2 design sensibilities, but I'd love to hear what you guys think. It's a bit more reminiscent of the original heavy, but I think his facial features and such are different enough that he doesn't just look like a carbon copy.
Definetly a huge improvement. Also bare in mind that, although the jawline (the contour so to speak) is very sharp in most of the models, the jaw profile doesn't have to be. The sniper's jaw profile is quite round actually.
DKK, really? So then the red version would have red pants and a brown jacket? Wouldn't it make more sense to go the other way around? For blue, gray pants and a blue western pattern shirt. And for red, brown pants and a red shirt? It would give more color surface area too. Oh and tone down the whiteness of that white shirt, as well as the reds in the TNT.
As for the design id move the belt so it sags in the front and rides up in the back over his ass and under his shirt. The weight is in the front so it would do that.
Swizzle, the nose needs to be widened and the lips need more puffiness.
@Swizzle
I agree with DKK...Looks a lot like the original heavy, especially the eye region with the low brow and everything.
When I model a head and am not satisfied with it I try to imagine which actors could play the character in a movie and simply mix and match a few of their features until I have something I like.
For instance I could totally see Michale Clarke Duncan or Michael Jai White playing the heavy here.
Or you could take a look at a few afro american wrestlers.
Anyway keep at it!
Loving your stuff, might take a shot at the Scout if I find some time.:)
Echoing slaught's comment about using Mike Duncan as a ref for the black heavy's facial tweaking. That guy is basically the real life equivalent of a heavy, perfect reference material.
DKK, looks great man, I think he could use a buckle on the Dyno-gun belt though, and an over-hanging part... or under-hanging? whatever that extra bit of belt you always end up with cause of the length.... oh you know what I mean.
Swizzle, definatley think you've gone too far the other way, I like the new jaw but he needs more brow and nose defenition
I personally prefer the colored pants to the colored jacket. It feels too forced as a jacket. The team color schemes seem to play off eachother better previously as well. Love the design though, nothin like some dynamite holsters
@ the belt buckle idea, should totally make one that says "BOOM!"
DKK - I love the model, but the team colour is really bothering me. Not because you're doing a bad job, but because nothing seems like it's going to work.
Have you tried making his undershirt the team colour? I think that could potentially be the way to go. Look at the ingame sniper as an example. because he has a similar clothing style to this guy.
Swiz: I would have to concur that he's looking far too much like the original heavy. Pushing some more of the ethnic traits might help... Larger lips, wider nose and larger cheekbones perhaps. Just a thought.
@DKK I am liking the recent coloours you have done. A few things I personally would change. A ring of yellow around the dynamite, just to help make it stand out a little better especially from the red shirt. Also I realise these are flats but when you come to do the outer jacket perhaps you could give it a gradient like on the pyro, which again will make it sit out a little from the shirt. Also I'm not sure if I like that green belt, most of the belts in tf2 are darkish brown, maybe make it the same colour as the ring around his hat?
Your colours seem most similar to sniper, They contrast elements with light and dark tones... perhaps try something similar to this.
@Swizzle I agree with everyone else on the heavy losing a lot of his ethnicity.
To DKK, the way to go is definitely to use the sniper's color scheme. Other than that the belt buckle should have engraved a smile just like the demo has drawn under his croth guard.
To Swizzle, try making the heavy nostrils wider and larger while keeping the nose round and as flat as possible. The current heavy doesn't have too many ethnic marks to start with anyway, we are just too used to see it and think that guy is russian. The gray preview takes a lot of personality out of it.
I've tried to incorporate a lot of the crits you guys have been giving me into this, and I think they've definitely helped quite a bit. I don't know that I'd call this finalized by any means, but I'm much happier with how this is turning out now.
Here are some changes I'm considering making to the body to try and give it a bit more interest. I'm not a huge fan of these changes, but I think they're at least worthwhile experiments. I think the heavy needs more medium and small detail in addition to all the large details he has at the moment, so that's what I'm going for right now.
The belt for the gun makes the lower half of his body too busy imo. If you removed them and possibly the vest and just kept the bandana and suspenders it would look even better. As for the head, I'd make the nostrils a little more defined and the brow just a little bigger.
Just what I'm seeing anyway, really loving the work you're putting into these Swizzle, keep it up
Oh and you need to pose him up with a upscaled version of the homewrecker
Also id widen his chin so it matches the width of his mouth, extend his nostrils out so they almost hit the halfway point on his eyes and pull his ears out a bit. Also pull his lower lip out just a bit more as well as thicken it. <hell just do a push modifier on his lower lip...
I would like to see a profile view of his head if possible. Africans have a noticeable slant to their features so the chin/jaw and nose come out a lot more while the brow goes back a little compared to Caucasian features. His head looks a little flat
DKK, why is his crotch so.... wide? I like the last update but with a wide crotch and pretty huge forearms while every other body part is pretty slim well you gotta wonder..
if he's still got all his eye's, does that mean he's not a very good Demoman?
It's getting there for sure, have you made an AO map yet? some shading in the texture might really help bring it together. you might want to crazy up that face a little also, at least not such a smooth beard.
--edit-- I'm just comparing him to the concept, just too see what it is that works there that yours is missing. for starters I think your guy is probably a little too tall, or should at least have more of a hunch to his stance. He might also benefit from a little bit of Popeye arm syndrome?
The gun holster seems unneeded, but i'm loving the updated colors! Oh and why didn't you do the pants tucked into the boots like in the "photo"?
The question is what weapon would he use? I would think it would need to be heavy(duh) and ranged still.
well duh a portable crank powered gatling gun as that would fit the period
or a naval cannon
yaeh I checked gatling gun has popped as a suggestion earlier than my suggestion but I'm still hell-bent on one class like the Soldier getting a 1850s cannon
If you wanted to match the facial hair to the original design a little more closely, the demo man has long, mutton chops and a beard, rather than a full beard, both of which are fairly tousled. I think it helps the crazy prospector look quite a bit.
I'm also inclined to think he should look a bit more scrawny. Kinda like Seth Briars from Red Dead Redemption but a little less extreme.
Anyway, if no one else is going to give it a go, I might have a crack at the Scout.
Alrighty. Things seem to be looking a bit better here. There are still some changes needed, but nothing huge. I changed his boots to look more like the original image. For some reason or another, I was looking at the wrong character's feet when I modeled the old ones. I guess I'm a retard.
Once again, this is just base colors and AO. I haven't worked on the textures or added normals for the clothing yet.
And before anybody mentions the suspenders magically disappearing from the back shot near his neck, I'd just like to say this: NEENER NEENER! I ALREADY ADDED THEM!
I dont know if its the scarf around the neck or the hughe arms but the head looks to small
rather than like stylized proportions.
I think its the scarf.
In that aspect i think the old head worked better.
This one is a little close to the original in a way.
Anyhow love your stuff but this one still has room for more style like the other two have.
Replies
I don't know how could I miss this one. Looks great, but I would place the shirt folds right where the elbows start and make the forearms more buffed. Just do a quick test and you will know which way looks better.
I dunno about making the bandana red though, I think it would look better with something more contrasty, similar to the pants maybe?
Needs a more muscular torso.
The sniper back then was a real man, all buff and such.
Yeah, I thought of that, but I'm also trying to find common ground between the new concept and the actual player model. I'm gonna draw a more muscular version of it and see how it turns out. Thanks.
i agree with the the buffer torso idea.
But I can dig that you don't want to change it.
Load up the Heavy in the model editor. From the front, his head is shaped like a flattened triangle. In general, the whole head tapers relentlessly. From the side, the back has a similar slope, while the front has some (remarkably) sharp features. Prominent, but small cheek bones, lips jutting out, sharp chin, heavy brows...
I made you a paintover:
I'm kind of tempted to contribute somehow, but im probably already doing too many things
the kepi is spot on though, and exactly what I'd have done
Here are the side-view silhouettes of the normal TF2 characters. I didn't include the frontal silhouettes because they are, in general, not as distinctive as profile views.
I need to figure out what they have in common that makes them look like a TF2 character. So far my list is somewhat inconclusive, but indicative of where I might improve.
Now for things that are inconsistent:
Now, here are the profiles of the ones I've made:
It's obvious that I need to work on the profiles to make them fit TF2 better. The worst offender is, of course, the heavy. He looks bulbous and melty.
What can I do to improve? I've come up with a few general guidelines, but I'd love to see some input from you guys.
My guidelines so far:
What would you guys add to that list of guidelines? What am I missing here? If I want to make new classes that don't just replicate existing ones in design, if not function, how should I go about doing it?
I'd love to hear some feedback from you guys on this.
while yours do have distinct looks, it's mostly amongst themselves, and mostly just the soldier (and moslty cause of his beard and hair). I;d suggest just spending some time with a lattice and nudging stuff around until you get something that really stands out.
I'd also take another look at Heavy's body. I think it suffers from the same as the heads in that its quite good and reads easily, there ain't much too it.
I'd actually suggest having a look at some Justice League Unlimited (the cartoon) and see how they tackle different big guy body types. The style isn't so far removed that it would look out of place.
Just a thought. It's what I envision a guy looks like who wears a bandana in 1850.
Anyways, I think it's pretty impressive how you aren't satisfied and are going the extra mile and beyond to try and live up to your own expectations, the research and the work ethic is really just awesome and I hope you get hired by Valve or whoever can use your talents to the fullest because you deserve it.
I've been pulling chunks of this around for a while now and I think it's looking more in line with TF2 design sensibilities, but I'd love to hear what you guys think. It's a bit more reminiscent of the original heavy, but I think his facial features and such are different enough that he doesn't just look like a carbon copy.
As for the design id move the belt so it sags in the front and rides up in the back over his ass and under his shirt. The weight is in the front so it would do that.
Swizzle, the nose needs to be widened and the lips need more puffiness.
I agree with DKK...Looks a lot like the original heavy, especially the eye region with the low brow and everything.
When I model a head and am not satisfied with it I try to imagine which actors could play the character in a movie and simply mix and match a few of their features until I have something I like.
For instance I could totally see Michale Clarke Duncan or Michael Jai White playing the heavy here.
Or you could take a look at a few afro american wrestlers.
Anyway keep at it!
Loving your stuff, might take a shot at the Scout if I find some time.:)
Swizzle, definatley think you've gone too far the other way, I like the new jaw but he needs more brow and nose defenition
@ the belt buckle idea, should totally make one that says "BOOM!"
^just so its on each page. Me id stick with those colors only for large everything but the small details.
Have you tried making his undershirt the team colour? I think that could potentially be the way to go. Look at the ingame sniper as an example. because he has a similar clothing style to this guy.
btw, I love this thread guys, keep them coming!
Your colours seem most similar to sniper, They contrast elements with light and dark tones... perhaps try something similar to this.
@Swizzle I agree with everyone else on the heavy losing a lot of his ethnicity.
To Swizzle, try making the heavy nostrils wider and larger while keeping the nose round and as flat as possible. The current heavy doesn't have too many ethnic marks to start with anyway, we are just too used to see it and think that guy is russian. The gray preview takes a lot of personality out of it.
Here are some changes I'm considering making to the body to try and give it a bit more interest. I'm not a huge fan of these changes, but I think they're at least worthwhile experiments. I think the heavy needs more medium and small detail in addition to all the large details he has at the moment, so that's what I'm going for right now.
The question is what weapon would he use? I would think it would need to be heavy(duh) and ranged still.
Just what I'm seeing anyway, really loving the work you're putting into these Swizzle, keep it up
Oh and you need to pose him up with a upscaled version of the homewrecker
also makes me glad I didn't go with suspenders.
I'd love see this guy use Ruskeydoo's Gatling Gun he made for the Polypack contest: http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73181&highlight=ruskeydoo
I think it would fit great!
I would think some sort of civil war Gatling gun would be suiting since it was almost that time period.
According to Wikipedia the Gatling gun showed up in 1851 so I think we could make the excuse that Mann Co. or something had the first prototype.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Gatling_gun.jpg
It's getting there for sure, have you made an AO map yet? some shading in the texture might really help bring it together. you might want to crazy up that face a little also, at least not such a smooth beard.
--edit-- I'm just comparing him to the concept, just too see what it is that works there that yours is missing. for starters I think your guy is probably a little too tall, or should at least have more of a hunch to his stance. He might also benefit from a little bit of Popeye arm syndrome?
or a naval cannon
yaeh I checked gatling gun has popped as a suggestion earlier than my suggestion but I'm still hell-bent on one class like the Soldier getting a 1850s cannon
I'm also inclined to think he should look a bit more scrawny. Kinda like Seth Briars from Red Dead Redemption but a little less extreme.
Anyway, if no one else is going to give it a go, I might have a crack at the Scout.
Once again, this is just base colors and AO. I haven't worked on the textures or added normals for the clothing yet.
And before anybody mentions the suspenders magically disappearing from the back shot near his neck, I'd just like to say this: NEENER NEENER! I ALREADY ADDED THEM!
rather than like stylized proportions.
I think its the scarf.
In that aspect i think the old head worked better.
This one is a little close to the original in a way.
Anyhow love your stuff but this one still has room for more style like the other two have.