The G + LMB is the only whole loop slide tool, so I should keep it. There is a selection slide tool already, V + MMB.
Thanks that helps a lot, I get it now. Also thanks for pointing out the V Slide tool, I had my targets on the other edge loop select Slide tool and overlooked it.
Just noticed a fundamental difference in the way the 2 slide tools work as illustrated here.
The 1st is using V Slide (as you can see from the ball gizmo that pops up), the 2nd using G slide & LMB.
I've been having a look at customising the Streamline tools. An example; I wanted to assign slide selected to Ctrl + Alt + LMB but realised that the MMB Slide selected is nested in the Streamline hotkey. Is there a way to gain access to these nested functions?
I'm finding it quite hard to customise any of the tools at the moment to be honest and I think that is mainly because I'm so used to the Silo method (Mouse Settings)
I know it's been mentioned a few times on this thread but Silo really has this stuff pinned down and it would be well worth it to have a look at how they implemented the Mouse Shortcuts. See this post by James Edwards. the options expose ALL of Silo's tools to the user.
I really like the idea of the Streamline tools but I think nesting the tools under 1 hotkey but not giving us access to them could limit the potential of Voidworld. Give the users a Mouse Config window and access to ALL tools (even the nested Streamline Engine tools) and you'll be well on your way to a transparent workflow.
Beakitano: I still not quite get what you mean about the edge-ring-pathing problem. What steps did you used when you try it? What is the final result you are expeting?
I made a video and guess that's the final result your are expecting for.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XaHh4MR7-g[/ame]
ghib: I will try to figure out how to expose each individual streamline tools to user.
As to the reverting to single selection mode you suggested to solve the problem caused by TweakNomalMove tool being mapped to Shift key, I just feel having to swicthing Between multi and single selection Frequently is a headache by itself. What I plan to do is once the Shift key is pressed, only the correct component type can be selected under the current component mode by LMB/MMB provided the streamline engine's multi-selection is off, but all component types still can be highlighted as long as TweakNormalMove's multi-selection is on, and RMB will still work as usual.
Bit of a stupid question : is there a page somewhere explaining the basics of the program ? It could be a single, simple wiki page freely editable by a core community of Voidworld users. Just sayin!
Yeah planning to but right now things are still mixing around and really nothing is finalized yet. Once core things have been set hopefully we can do that.
but all component types still can be highlighted as long as TweakNormalMove's multi-selection is on, and RMB will still work as usual.
This would work well.
I just noticed after having turned on Streamline engine Multi-selection that it automatically converts selections to the new component type you click on. This is great and doesn't interrupt the workflow.
*edit* small bug with this: converting vert/edges to polys doesn't retain or convert the selection. It DOES from Poly to vert/edge.
Also, it would be great if the Multi-selection actually had an Icon on the upper right beside the other component icons to show that it is on or off.
Converting vertices -> edges, vertices -> polygons, edges -> polygons are a bit tricky, it has more than one possibilities. And when you switch back to previous mode, you won't get back the same selection.
I see what you mean. In the sample, in vertex mode, can you add one extra vertex into the selection then change to edge and polygon mode? I wan to see what will happen. I try that in the Silo I have, but it doesn't work, the selection gets lost totally when I switch mode.
Yes you are right.. If the selected vertices don't make up a face then the vertex selection is lost in translation. The same applies with edges.
It makes sense if you think about it.
Hi! First of all, I am happy to report that antialias *does* work, through the Nvidia control panel It looks awesome!
Some feedback :
- Overall, I think there is a need to organise the program quite a bit. I understand this is all very temp, but I feel like some things are going to stick for a while and it can be risky.
At the moment I can find stuff on the panel on the right ; some stuff at the bottom of the screen ; a few hints in the weird hot tips menu on the left ; and last but not least, I find most of the things I am looking for buried deep down in the shortcut editor. SIlo, again, is probably the best example to look at. When opening Silo for the first time, one can very easily find all the tools by simply going through the menu entries one by one. Its all quite logically organized :
Now I am not saying that you should copy that for VV. But the overall principle is still true : before messing around with radial menus, predefined keyboard shortcuts and cryptic icons, you should focus on organizing all the tools in simple drop dowm menus. That's how a vast majority of commercial programs work, and thats why programs like Photoshop, Silo or even Word are so easy to figure out.
Now I understand that there is a desire to streamline VV as much as possible, using complex context-dependent shortcuts. But the basics should be here too : If I want to assign a shortcut to Extrude, I should be able to find where Extrude is located in the menus ; then I should be able to simply assign a shortcut to it, without leaving the menus.
Also, dont be affraid of multiple ways of doing things. There are many way to select an edgeloop in the 3d world (double clicking an edge ; selecting an edge and using a shortcut ; entering a loop selection mode.) These should all be available in VV. Dont worry too much about default shortcuts, or conflicts - users will simply create their own and wont worry about selection methods that they dont care for.
- Regarding tools like Extrude : at the moment it feels very odd, up/down defines the extrusion whereas it is much more intuitive to let the user visually set the direction with mouse input. If I slide my mouse up, that means I want to extrude up, not down (even if the normals of the faces I am trying to extrude are facing down)
- face flickering : disable the face flickering when hovering on a manipulator, it serves no purpose and its very annoying
- component dragging in subdiv mode : I LOVE how I can select the smoothed components instead of being limited to the cage (Max pet peeve!). But when I drag a vert, it doesnt follow as far as it should and it is indeed limited by the cage.
- Smart tip menu is annoying (.5 seconds delay) and pretty much useless.
- on-screen radial menu : I think you should copy what maya does when it comes to going back one step backwards in the menu (by hitting the last opened node)
- option for click drag select : one needs the ability to select and move a component all in one click-drag (instead of clicking to select, then click-dragging to move)
To sum it all up : I really recommend you to try out Silo thoroughly - maybe try finding an experienced artist to show it to you. No need to copy it, but there are a lot of great things in it to draw inspiration from.
Good job overall, I love the look of the default material btw!!
Pior, I agree with pretty much everything you just said. Especially the part about organisation and tidying the app. Things I don't agree with are:
Extrude based on direction in screen - What happens when you have faces on opposite sides of the model or a poly ring all the way around? Keeping it consistently in 1 direction (the way it is) is much more preferable. It works this way in Silo and you get used to it very quickly. I think Kun just needs to give people the option for which direction that is comfortable to the way they think.
Smart tip - You can change the time that the Smart tip is open for or turn it off completely. 'Edit > Smart Tip options' I actually quite like the Smart Tip (I have it on permanently) It's great for newbies to the app and gets you up to speed with what all the context sensitive shortcuts are.
Click Drag Select - Do you mean the existing Tweak or being able to click drag select based on the last used axes?
pior: That's a huge feed back. I very appreciate it. I may get drowned in it for a while.
From early feedbacks, I know that the UI is not organized properly. But that actually is a confusing field. How can you tell it is organised properly or not. Like in Silo, why the Subdivison is a seperate entry, I feel like it should be put under Modify entry. And the Options entry, what if the Modify has its own options, where should I put these options, under Modify or under Options? If some one give you a bag of stones and ask your to organise them into something. If you are an artist, you can use them to form an animal or something that people can tell what it is. If you are a programer, What you created may be something like an alien simbol or just a mess. Only you can tell what it is because you created it. That is VW ui. I do feel frustrated about this.
Regarding the hotkey assigning way, I just feel it's better to have all the shortcuts visible to the user when he does the assigning, this way he can fix the confliction easier.
Regarding the cursor move extrusion direction, moving cursor in the selections normal direction only suitalbe to simple selections. For a polygon loop selection around sphere, the average norma can be zero, for complex selection the average normal can be hard to tell. So UpDown or LeftRight can serve as a universal way.
I am not sure what is the face flickering you mention. If you can provide a picture or a video that would be helpfull.
When transforming sudivision mesh, the transforming actuall performed on the base mesh first and updates subdiveion mesh accordingly, there is no opposite way to do that.
I can shorten the SmartTip delaying time to 0.1 second. Do you mean the smarttip menu is useless at all?
I don't have the idea of how to implement maya style radial menu behaviour at the moment.
I am planing to extend the Tweak tool into Mesh and Object mode as proposed by ghib.
Thanks for loving the default material look. My lucky pick.
The thing about Maya's marking menus is that they're not purely radial menus, they're so much more.
The most important point being that targeting a menu item isn't based on distance it's the path that you take to get there. It's scale-independent so you don't need pinpoint accuracy to get the result you're after.
Also.. you don't need to wait for the menu item to pop-up and as soon as you understand that the marking menu system becomes blindingly fast. Marking menus are really a gestural system and they have to be used to be fully appreciated.
I agree wholeheartedly with Pior. If organisation of the program is left too long, it will be a gargantuan task to reorganise things. Just look at 3ds Max.
If focus is redirected to organisation and workflow, I'd love to help out on the design. I'm also an (ex-) silo user, as are many in this thread it seems
Summary of changes
* UpDown/UpDownInvert/LeftRight/LeftRightInvert cursor movement transforming options are added. Edit > Preference.
* StreamLine tools are improved. The basic tools are accessible, user can build his own streamline tool.
* WMB(wheel mouse button) up/down scroll events are added into streamline tool and can be used for selection grow/shrink, shading cycling, undo redo, etc.
* Tweak tool now can work in mesh/object mode. It also works on spline object in vertex mode.
* Hotkey customizing form and StreamlineTool Customizing form can work together. If changes are made in one form, the other form will get updated accordingly.
* If the TweakNormalMove tool (or any other tool) is mapped to Shift key, There could be selection style contradition when Shift key is pressed as both the TweakNormalMove tool and the Include selection tool are activated. If the main multi-selection is off and the TweakNormal's multi-selection is on, LMB/MMB selection click will only work on the correct subobject type under the current subobject mode. RMB will work as usual as it doesn't create persistent selection.
* When the main multi-selection is on, if LMB/MMB to select any subobject that is not the correct type under current subobject mode, the subobject mode will be swicthed to the mode of the selected subobject's type. This is to provide convenience on possible further operations on that type of subobject.
* When subobject mode changed, the programe will attemp to convert selection between subobjects.
* Press Delete key will delete highlighted suboject if there is no selection.
* Lots linear menus are added.
* [Spherize Selection]/[edge Curve Loop]/[edge Space Loop] tools are implemented.
* True Paint Select tool is added, defaultkey: X
Heres some more thoughts about UI and organization.
In my opinion, the first thing you should do is simply is to simply remove/delete all buttons and icons you have at the moment.
I understand the app has been growing quickly, but still, one thing you really want to avoid is to have icons all around the 4 edges of the viewport. No efficient modeler wants to click all around the place for various options.
Also, remove most of the keyboard shortcuts you have by default. Again, some of the big apps do that, but its actually pretty bad. For instance, in Max the key "o" enables bounding box mode, something that almost no one ever needs. But still, theres tons of people online simply asking how to disable it because they turned in on by mistake. If it wasnt assigned, then you would have 2 or 3 threads asking where to find the option, as opposed to dozen threads asking how to disable it. So, remove all default shortcuts, and just keep the startup navigation choice, and maybe Q W E R for select, translate, scale, rotate.
Once this is done, focus on putting everything up there in the top menus. Work on an organisation philosophy that is simple enough and makes sense. You just have to think of one and commit to it.
Heres an example :
File
anything load/save/import/export related
Customize
Usually in other apps, this is hidden under file or preference, but in your case it deserves a special entry. It would be where to access stuff like radial menu customization, the shortcut editor, the streamline tool editor, and so on. Also from here you could turn UI elements on and off, and create new floating palettes to hold text or icons than one can click on.
Selection
everything selection related. Lasso/square paint, select hidden face or not, camera based selection, selection sets, selection conversion options, and so on.
Create
Everything letting someone create stuff from scratch. Primitives creation, spline creation, freehand tools, and so on.
Modify
Everything deforming or editing models. Create faces, extrude, bevel, attach, detach, and modifiers.
Display
Everything related to highlighting options, viewport rendering style, grid display. (loving the black/white wireframe switcher btw, very smart!!)
Everything in these menus should be easy to assign keyboard shortcuts to.
With all that, anyone could use your program in no time. Because at the moment, a new user has to randomly click on icons to find out what they do. It might make sense to you and to active veteran users, but it makes no sense to newcomers.
Text, however, is universal. When it comes to icons, just design a bunch of 32x32 gifs or pngs, dont assign them to anything, and let the users pick what they want when they create custom floating palettes. I can guarantee you that community icon packs will appear in no time around here, so dont bother creating more than a few. Just let the users make their own, and focus on creating a program that does not need icons to be understood.
Also please disable the quicktips stuff by default. Your app is targeted to advanced modelers, and they will never need that window once their workflow is tuned. Also, disabling it should be as simple as right clicking on it > disable. The display lag of it is also very annoying.
I know it sounds harsh but hey - most of these suggestions are about removing stuff, not adding new features so that should be easy
Hope this helps. Id happily make mockups if you want to!
Pior: That helps a lot. If you can do a mockup that would make things more clear. I understand in some apps you can hit a key while a menu is highlighted to assign a hotkey, but what if I want to assign a hotkey combo with more than one key. Is there a better way than bring up the hotkey editor?
In 3DCoat you hover on a menu item and press END to activate hotkey mode. Then you can press any combination of keys and mouse buttons and on release will set the hotkeys.
In Silo you merely hover on a menu item and press a key but this is undesirable. I've lost count of the times I've accidentally assigned a key due to clumsy fingers.
Yeah Ghib, totally agree. It needs to be simple enough like 3DC and Silo, but much more mistake-proof.
Why not having a little thing to click on, right next to the menu item, on the right ? Like this :
Extrude []
Pressing the little thing on the right, represented here as "[]", would simply either active hotkey assignment mode (similar to Silo and 3DC), or maybe it could bring the user straight to the hotkey editor, with the given tool already selected from the list. I think either way is solid. So maybe putting both would be nice. Right clicking on the [] would enable live hotkey assignment mode, and left clicking on it would bring the regular shortcut editor. BUT! make sure to have a little message bubble explaining the right click/left click thing when the cursor is hovering on top of [] - you really dont want anyone to have to guess that!
The menu control doesn't provide many control event options like other controls do, so the [] idea can not be applied. I would prefer when user highlight the menu item then hit a key, the hotkey editor will show up with the related tool selected and the hotkey assigned to it. While the hotkey editor still on, user can test it so he can decide to cancel or keep it or further modify the hotkey combination.
Only problem would be that one key would be 'locked' for that functionality (insert, end, whatever). JUST make sure that this key is mentioned somewhere obvious. Maybe this should appear as an UI overlay, just like how you have 'alt' and other keypresses show up in the viewport. Or, have a little info bubble show up when someone hover on a menu item. The bubble would describe the tool, but also it will say at the end : "press END to assign a shortcut".
There is a setback here. In the Studio I am using, there is no key down event on menu items. That means when a menu item is selected, the action of pressing down keys is not accessible to the programe. Maybe when I upgrade to newer version of studio, the situation can be improved.
One more thing I have to say on the subject of setting hotkeys. Users should be able to create their hotkey combo in one go. Currently to set a combination you have to press and confirm each button separately. As a result you get the inevitable hotkey conflict warning which actually has no bearing on your final combination.
It would be faster/more intuitive if you could, for instance, just press Ctrl + Alt + d and then confirm that it's correct at the end.
Ok then well one thing you could do then, is to make sure that every menu item is VERY easy to find in the keyboard shortcut editor. From what I remember last time I played with VV it was all a bit hard to find, but I'll double check.
Here are the ideas I have got for the two subjects
To create a hotkey combination:
1.Once the keyboard layout dialog shows up, click to set on the "Combination Hotkey" option inside the dialog.
2.Click to turn on the wanted keys. Or press down those acual keys on keyboard.
3.Clic OK button to exit the dialog.
To find the tool in the hotkey editor related to a linear menu item:
1.Press down 'ESC' key on keyboard.
2.Open the menu, find the menu itme and click it. Instead of firing a command, the programe will open the hotkey editor with the related tool selected and visible.
A brief statement about this method will be presented in the hotkey editor so new user can have a way to know it.
just a tiny suggestion: how about you hold down the mouse for a longer period (like 2 sec) and a input dialog/ panel appears ready to listen for the input. Eventually in realtime that panel will show if there is a conflict with a existing shortcut and if you want to override it.
Rightclick and middle mouse button click on the menu commands could be other options to initiate the shortcut assignment tool/ popup.
I love silo but I agree its to easy to mess up your layout by accident, even more if you get a lot of commands.
I agree (again) wholeheartedly with Pior's post suggesting you go back to basics on interface and hotkeys.
I disagree with having the hotkey editor pop up when you want to change the shortcut, though. Silo's behaviour with the addition of pressing (for instance) END to alter the shortcut key is much nicer!
Thanks! renderhjs and MightyPea. The sad thing is in the Studio I am using, the menu item only has click event I can use to interact with user. There is no key and mouse events. So at the moment, press down a special key before activating the menu to link a menu item to a related tool in the hotkey editor seems the fastest way so far.
IStonia thanks for implementing Spherize, edge Curve Loop, edge Space Loop.
I'll give them a proper test soon.
I did notice a bug immediately on trying Curveloop. The outermost loops aren't included in the operation.
Also 1 thing which I think is missing from this tool is the ability to add in 2 further [terminating] edge loops that the curveloop operation will work within. This way we can use Curveloop on selected parts of a mesh.
Ok, I will improved that. Currently you don't have to select the end loop edges. I will make it work in this way, the operation only works between selection loop edges, that would solve the problems you mentioned. But for closed loops, how can you tell which part you want to work with? Using length comparing seems not a good idea since it may not be what your intention. The only solution I can think of is hiding that portion of polygons so the programe will leave the part alone.
But for closed loops, how can you tell which part you want to work with?
I've been having a think about this and come up with one possible solution. This gif filesize is a bit bigger than usual, sorry
The captions are (in case they're illegible):
Endloop Marker - direction
Endloop Marker can be placed anywhere
It will give the direction of operation and the opposite terminating endloop.
If there is no Edgeloop Marker then I guess the entire closed loop will be used.
by the way you should be able to insert as many edgeloops as you need and the curveloop operation should use all of them until it gets to the final terminating loop.
ghib: I have done some changes regarding Curve Loop and Space Loop. The menu position of these two tools are moved up a level. I make it this way, the app will find the loop by edges, but it will find selections by vertices. So the tools will work in all vertex/edge/polygon modes.
As to the edge marker idea, It has some shortages. It doesn't work in vertex/polygon mode, it can't work on a single loop. So I would prefer to hide some polygons to break down the loop and unhide polygon afterwards.
I still don't get the idea of selection spherizing. Can you create a demo for that. I absolutely don't know what is the goal, What constraint I should use. Currently, I create a sphere base on the selection and cast the selection onto the sphere surface. I thought that's pretty much close to the meaning of the word 'Sherize'. http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/VoidWorld-Dec-14.rar
Spherize - the problem perhaps is wrapping the selected geometry around a sphere, it's too complicated and I can see problems where vertices are snapped to the wrong side of the temporary sphere (I also incorrectly named the tool Spherize) The tool should be renamed to Circularise or something along these lines to give us more of a 2d based end result.
I think the best thing to do would be to have a look at Wings3d - Circularise
Compare:
Wings-
Voidworld-
The resulting vertices in VW aren't evenly spaced around the originally selected edge loop.
Wings' circularise leaves the tool in interactive mode after the circularise function has been performed and allows the user to interactively set the amount. Very handy.
Also having a look at Wings again this tool won't work in polygon mode unfortunately as
'Selected edge loops must be non-intersecting and be either all open or closed'
ghib: I can see in wings the selected vertices are placed within a plane. Can you move some vertices up/down(perhaps make it a bit extreme) and try the function again. I want to see the result from this so I can have the correct idea of how it works.
Also can you give feedbacks on the improved CurveLoop and SpaceLoop.
hi IStonia- I don't have anything to add to the discussion right now, I just wanted to say I've been following the thread for a while now and I'm very keen to see how VW turns out- I suspect there are many others also keeping an eye on this with anticipation I also agree with ghib and pior's suggestions btw
IStonia: Wings Circularise does indeed flatten it to a plane. I tried to make a more extreme example for you. You can see that it doesn't flatten it a particular world plane so I leave that up to you to decide how to best implement.
I think Wings does a pretty good job of sorting out this mess
The Curve loop works brilliantly so far. Nice one
With regards to hiding the geometry to isolate the operation I'm not sure this would flow well. As a modelling function I think making intricate selections to hide components and then perform the function will hamper workflow (especially if the scene is complex). Also, as an artist 1st, I need to be able to constantly see the area I'm working on in relation to the rest of the mesh. Hiding will disrupt this. Maybe it will be intuitive after having some hands on time.
As a final addendum (and in defense of the Endloop Marker idea) I would probably never use Curve loop in Polygon mode, Mostly in Edge mode and occasionally in Vertex mode.
Maybe we need other Polycount members to give their feedback but this is the way I would personally prefer to work. Continuously making selections then performing the function.
Space Loop currently doesn't behave correctly at the moment. Need to test this a bit further as it completely mangled a mesh earlier but it's working correctly now.
*edit*
Just noticed a BUG with 'loop select' button in edge mode.
With an open mesh if you double click on an open edge it will select the ring but if you single select an open edge and choose 'Loop Select' the operation doesn't work.
Can you think of any way to implement hotkeys so that pressing the keys in any combination/sequence will activate the targeted tools?
I ask this because I am trying to emulate the setup I have in Silo as accurately as I can in Voidworld.
So I have Ctrl + Alt + RMB = Slide
In VW pressing Ctrl then Alt results in Rotate in viewport. Press Alt then Ctrl results in activating the slide tool.
This is highly undesirable and can cause a lot of frustration when trying to get into any sort of modelling flow.
Similarly if the Ctrl + RMB are released but Alt still held down it should automatically switch to viewport navigation again. VW needs to get rid of any fussy issues like this in order to flow properly.
Thanks, keep up the great work.. Voidworld is really coming together.
p.s. sorry for spamming like this. I'm writing these as they come to me.
ghib: I will try to find out the way to solve the hotkey sequence problem. You may still remember that you asked for the view navigation enabled while the cut tool is still on. That's why Ctrl + Alt will cause view navigation because I make it general. I will make it only effective for some certain tools like cut tool that can benefit from this behaviour.
I can't reproduce the bug about the streamline tool after new tools are added. Can you explain the steps you used so I can follow to check the bug down?
rooster: Thanks for adding the psychological element into this thread. It can be more valuable than a feature suggestion.
I'd like to add to the psychological element I've been following the developments closely (and it looks very positive), but not had enough time to contribute to testing (hopefully in the new year).
Great progress so far, I can vouch that a lot of people are watching who haven't had a chance to step in with input yet
Hehe yeah same here, I try it every now and then but I mostly watch in anticipation Its getting close to being a very, very good basemesh maker kind of program!
Ist, Ill try to dig further in it over the weekend. Im also in the process of recording some little modeling videos in Max, Ill send them your way asap since there might be some ideas to get inspiration from.
I've been thinking about what is needed from a great modelling tool and it occurred to me.. 'Order from Chaos'
It's fairly easy to mess things up; pushing and pulling geometry around arbitrarily. But to be able to get mechanical smoothness & evenness back into the model is something that's pretty hard to do by eye.. hmm
Replies
Thanks that helps a lot, I get it now. Also thanks for pointing out the V Slide tool, I had my targets on the other edge loop select Slide tool and overlooked it.
Just noticed a fundamental difference in the way the 2 slide tools work as illustrated here.
The 1st is using V Slide (as you can see from the ball gizmo that pops up), the 2nd using G slide & LMB.
I've been having a look at customising the Streamline tools. An example; I wanted to assign slide selected to Ctrl + Alt + LMB but realised that the MMB Slide selected is nested in the Streamline hotkey. Is there a way to gain access to these nested functions?
I'm finding it quite hard to customise any of the tools at the moment to be honest and I think that is mainly because I'm so used to the Silo method (Mouse Settings)
I know it's been mentioned a few times on this thread but Silo really has this stuff pinned down and it would be well worth it to have a look at how they implemented the Mouse Shortcuts. See this post by James Edwards. the options expose ALL of Silo's tools to the user.
I really like the idea of the Streamline tools but I think nesting the tools under 1 hotkey but not giving us access to them could limit the potential of Voidworld. Give the users a Mouse Config window and access to ALL tools (even the nested Streamline Engine tools) and you'll be well on your way to a transparent workflow.
Cheers
I made a video and guess that's the final result your are expecting for.
[ame]
ghib: I will try to figure out how to expose each individual streamline tools to user.
As to the reverting to single selection mode you suggested to solve the problem caused by TweakNomalMove tool being mapped to Shift key, I just feel having to swicthing Between multi and single selection Frequently is a headache by itself. What I plan to do is once the Shift key is pressed, only the correct component type can be selected under the current component mode by LMB/MMB provided the streamline engine's multi-selection is off, but all component types still can be highlighted as long as TweakNormalMove's multi-selection is on, and RMB will still work as usual.
This would work well.
I just noticed after having turned on Streamline engine Multi-selection that it automatically converts selections to the new component type you click on. This is great and doesn't interrupt the workflow.
*edit* small bug with this: converting vert/edges to polys doesn't retain or convert the selection. It DOES from Poly to vert/edge.
Also, it would be great if the Multi-selection actually had an Icon on the upper right beside the other component icons to show that it is on or off.
I'm using Silo as an example again as it shows well what I mean.
In this gif you can see that converting back and forth gives the same results.
It makes sense if you think about it.
Some feedback :
- Overall, I think there is a need to organise the program quite a bit. I understand this is all very temp, but I feel like some things are going to stick for a while and it can be risky.
At the moment I can find stuff on the panel on the right ; some stuff at the bottom of the screen ; a few hints in the weird hot tips menu on the left ; and last but not least, I find most of the things I am looking for buried deep down in the shortcut editor. SIlo, again, is probably the best example to look at. When opening Silo for the first time, one can very easily find all the tools by simply going through the menu entries one by one. Its all quite logically organized :
File, Edit, Create, Modify, Subdivision, Uvs, Display, Options, Help.
Now I am not saying that you should copy that for VV. But the overall principle is still true : before messing around with radial menus, predefined keyboard shortcuts and cryptic icons, you should focus on organizing all the tools in simple drop dowm menus. That's how a vast majority of commercial programs work, and thats why programs like Photoshop, Silo or even Word are so easy to figure out.
Now I understand that there is a desire to streamline VV as much as possible, using complex context-dependent shortcuts. But the basics should be here too : If I want to assign a shortcut to Extrude, I should be able to find where Extrude is located in the menus ; then I should be able to simply assign a shortcut to it, without leaving the menus.
Also, dont be affraid of multiple ways of doing things. There are many way to select an edgeloop in the 3d world (double clicking an edge ; selecting an edge and using a shortcut ; entering a loop selection mode.) These should all be available in VV. Dont worry too much about default shortcuts, or conflicts - users will simply create their own and wont worry about selection methods that they dont care for.
- Regarding tools like Extrude : at the moment it feels very odd, up/down defines the extrusion whereas it is much more intuitive to let the user visually set the direction with mouse input. If I slide my mouse up, that means I want to extrude up, not down (even if the normals of the faces I am trying to extrude are facing down)
- face flickering : disable the face flickering when hovering on a manipulator, it serves no purpose and its very annoying
- component dragging in subdiv mode : I LOVE how I can select the smoothed components instead of being limited to the cage (Max pet peeve!). But when I drag a vert, it doesnt follow as far as it should and it is indeed limited by the cage.
- Smart tip menu is annoying (.5 seconds delay) and pretty much useless.
- on-screen radial menu : I think you should copy what maya does when it comes to going back one step backwards in the menu (by hitting the last opened node)
- option for click drag select : one needs the ability to select and move a component all in one click-drag (instead of clicking to select, then click-dragging to move)
To sum it all up : I really recommend you to try out Silo thoroughly - maybe try finding an experienced artist to show it to you. No need to copy it, but there are a lot of great things in it to draw inspiration from.
Good job overall, I love the look of the default material btw!!
Click Drag Select - Do you mean the existing Tweak or being able to click drag select based on the last used axes?
From early feedbacks, I know that the UI is not organized properly. But that actually is a confusing field. How can you tell it is organised properly or not. Like in Silo, why the Subdivison is a seperate entry, I feel like it should be put under Modify entry. And the Options entry, what if the Modify has its own options, where should I put these options, under Modify or under Options? If some one give you a bag of stones and ask your to organise them into something. If you are an artist, you can use them to form an animal or something that people can tell what it is. If you are a programer, What you created may be something like an alien simbol or just a mess. Only you can tell what it is because you created it. That is VW ui. I do feel frustrated about this.
Regarding the hotkey assigning way, I just feel it's better to have all the shortcuts visible to the user when he does the assigning, this way he can fix the confliction easier.
Regarding the cursor move extrusion direction, moving cursor in the selections normal direction only suitalbe to simple selections. For a polygon loop selection around sphere, the average norma can be zero, for complex selection the average normal can be hard to tell. So UpDown or LeftRight can serve as a universal way.
I am not sure what is the face flickering you mention. If you can provide a picture or a video that would be helpfull.
When transforming sudivision mesh, the transforming actuall performed on the base mesh first and updates subdiveion mesh accordingly, there is no opposite way to do that.
I can shorten the SmartTip delaying time to 0.1 second. Do you mean the smarttip menu is useless at all?
I don't have the idea of how to implement maya style radial menu behaviour at the moment.
I am planing to extend the Tweak tool into Mesh and Object mode as proposed by ghib.
Thanks for loving the default material look. My lucky pick.
The thing about Maya's marking menus is that they're not purely radial menus, they're so much more.
The most important point being that targeting a menu item isn't based on distance it's the path that you take to get there. It's scale-independent so you don't need pinpoint accuracy to get the result you're after.
Also.. you don't need to wait for the menu item to pop-up and as soon as you understand that the marking menu system becomes blindingly fast. Marking menus are really a gestural system and they have to be used to be fully appreciated.
This article explains it well, worth a read.
p.s. I really dislike basic radial menus. I'll use them but only under gunpoint.
Bye
If focus is redirected to organisation and workflow, I'd love to help out on the design. I'm also an (ex-) silo user, as are many in this thread it seems
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/VoidWorld-Dec-12.rar
Summary of changes
* UpDown/UpDownInvert/LeftRight/LeftRightInvert cursor movement transforming options are added. Edit > Preference.
* StreamLine tools are improved. The basic tools are accessible, user can build his own streamline tool.
* WMB(wheel mouse button) up/down scroll events are added into streamline tool and can be used for selection grow/shrink, shading cycling, undo redo, etc.
* Tweak tool now can work in mesh/object mode. It also works on spline object in vertex mode.
* Hotkey customizing form and StreamlineTool Customizing form can work together. If changes are made in one form, the other form will get updated accordingly.
* If the TweakNormalMove tool (or any other tool) is mapped to Shift key, There could be selection style contradition when Shift key is pressed as both the TweakNormalMove tool and the Include selection tool are activated. If the main multi-selection is off and the TweakNormal's multi-selection is on, LMB/MMB selection click will only work on the correct subobject type under the current subobject mode. RMB will work as usual as it doesn't create persistent selection.
* When the main multi-selection is on, if LMB/MMB to select any subobject that is not the correct type under current subobject mode, the subobject mode will be swicthed to the mode of the selected subobject's type. This is to provide convenience on possible further operations on that type of subobject.
* When subobject mode changed, the programe will attemp to convert selection between subobjects.
* Press Delete key will delete highlighted suboject if there is no selection.
* Lots linear menus are added.
* [Spherize Selection]/[edge Curve Loop]/[edge Space Loop] tools are implemented.
* True Paint Select tool is added, defaultkey: X
Thanks!
Heres some more thoughts about UI and organization.
In my opinion, the first thing you should do is simply is to simply remove/delete all buttons and icons you have at the moment.
I understand the app has been growing quickly, but still, one thing you really want to avoid is to have icons all around the 4 edges of the viewport. No efficient modeler wants to click all around the place for various options.
Also, remove most of the keyboard shortcuts you have by default. Again, some of the big apps do that, but its actually pretty bad. For instance, in Max the key "o" enables bounding box mode, something that almost no one ever needs. But still, theres tons of people online simply asking how to disable it because they turned in on by mistake. If it wasnt assigned, then you would have 2 or 3 threads asking where to find the option, as opposed to dozen threads asking how to disable it. So, remove all default shortcuts, and just keep the startup navigation choice, and maybe Q W E R for select, translate, scale, rotate.
Once this is done, focus on putting everything up there in the top menus. Work on an organisation philosophy that is simple enough and makes sense. You just have to think of one and commit to it.
Heres an example :
File
anything load/save/import/export related
Customize
Usually in other apps, this is hidden under file or preference, but in your case it deserves a special entry. It would be where to access stuff like radial menu customization, the shortcut editor, the streamline tool editor, and so on. Also from here you could turn UI elements on and off, and create new floating palettes to hold text or icons than one can click on.
Selection
everything selection related. Lasso/square paint, select hidden face or not, camera based selection, selection sets, selection conversion options, and so on.
Create
Everything letting someone create stuff from scratch. Primitives creation, spline creation, freehand tools, and so on.
Modify
Everything deforming or editing models. Create faces, extrude, bevel, attach, detach, and modifiers.
Display
Everything related to highlighting options, viewport rendering style, grid display. (loving the black/white wireframe switcher btw, very smart!!)
Everything in these menus should be easy to assign keyboard shortcuts to.
With all that, anyone could use your program in no time. Because at the moment, a new user has to randomly click on icons to find out what they do. It might make sense to you and to active veteran users, but it makes no sense to newcomers.
Text, however, is universal. When it comes to icons, just design a bunch of 32x32 gifs or pngs, dont assign them to anything, and let the users pick what they want when they create custom floating palettes. I can guarantee you that community icon packs will appear in no time around here, so dont bother creating more than a few. Just let the users make their own, and focus on creating a program that does not need icons to be understood.
Also please disable the quicktips stuff by default. Your app is targeted to advanced modelers, and they will never need that window once their workflow is tuned. Also, disabling it should be as simple as right clicking on it > disable. The display lag of it is also very annoying.
I know it sounds harsh but hey - most of these suggestions are about removing stuff, not adding new features so that should be easy
Hope this helps. Id happily make mockups if you want to!
In Silo you merely hover on a menu item and press a key but this is undesirable. I've lost count of the times I've accidentally assigned a key due to clumsy fingers.
Why not having a little thing to click on, right next to the menu item, on the right ? Like this :
Extrude []
Pressing the little thing on the right, represented here as "[]", would simply either active hotkey assignment mode (similar to Silo and 3DC), or maybe it could bring the user straight to the hotkey editor, with the given tool already selected from the list. I think either way is solid. So maybe putting both would be nice. Right clicking on the [] would enable live hotkey assignment mode, and left clicking on it would bring the regular shortcut editor. BUT! make sure to have a little message bubble explaining the right click/left click thing when the cursor is hovering on top of [] - you really dont want anyone to have to guess that!
Good luck!
Only problem would be that one key would be 'locked' for that functionality (insert, end, whatever). JUST make sure that this key is mentioned somewhere obvious. Maybe this should appear as an UI overlay, just like how you have 'alt' and other keypresses show up in the viewport. Or, have a little info bubble show up when someone hover on a menu item. The bubble would describe the tool, but also it will say at the end : "press END to assign a shortcut".
It would be faster/more intuitive if you could, for instance, just press Ctrl + Alt + d and then confirm that it's correct at the end.
To create a hotkey combination:
1.Once the keyboard layout dialog shows up, click to set on the "Combination Hotkey" option inside the dialog.
2.Click to turn on the wanted keys. Or press down those acual keys on keyboard.
3.Clic OK button to exit the dialog.
To find the tool in the hotkey editor related to a linear menu item:
1.Press down 'ESC' key on keyboard.
2.Open the menu, find the menu itme and click it. Instead of firing a command, the programe will open the hotkey editor with the related tool selected and visible.
A brief statement about this method will be presented in the hotkey editor so new user can have a way to know it.
Rightclick and middle mouse button click on the menu commands could be other options to initiate the shortcut assignment tool/ popup.
I love silo but I agree its to easy to mess up your layout by accident, even more if you get a lot of commands.
I disagree with having the hotkey editor pop up when you want to change the shortcut, though. Silo's behaviour with the addition of pressing (for instance) END to alter the shortcut key is much nicer!
I'll give them a proper test soon.
I did notice a bug immediately on trying Curveloop. The outermost loops aren't included in the operation.
Also 1 thing which I think is missing from this tool is the ability to add in 2 further [terminating] edge loops that the curveloop operation will work within. This way we can use Curveloop on selected parts of a mesh.
I've been having a think about this and come up with one possible solution.
This gif filesize is a bit bigger than usual, sorry
The captions are (in case they're illegible):
If there is no Edgeloop Marker then I guess the entire closed loop will be used.
by the way you should be able to insert as many edgeloops as you need and the curveloop operation should use all of them until it gets to the final terminating loop.
Expected Result: Spherize should space evenly the verts that are selected and in direct connection by edges.
- Should work in polygon mode also.
- Should NOTaffect unselected geometry.
Space Loop - Doesn't seem to work as intended. At the moment it has the same result as Curve Loop.Expected Result: Space loop should work on basis of connected edges (Edge Loops) and evenly place vertices based on original edge positions.
As to the edge marker idea, It has some shortages. It doesn't work in vertex/polygon mode, it can't work on a single loop. So I would prefer to hide some polygons to break down the loop and unhide polygon afterwards.
I still don't get the idea of selection spherizing. Can you create a demo for that. I absolutely don't know what is the goal, What constraint I should use. Currently, I create a sphere base on the selection and cast the selection onto the sphere surface. I thought that's pretty much close to the meaning of the word 'Sherize'.
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/VoidWorld-Dec-14.rar
Spherize - the problem perhaps is wrapping the selected geometry around a sphere, it's too complicated and I can see problems where vertices are snapped to the wrong side of the temporary sphere (I also incorrectly named the tool Spherize) The tool should be renamed to Circularise or something along these lines to give us more of a 2d based end result.
I think the best thing to do would be to have a look at Wings3d - Circularise
Compare:
Wings-
Voidworld-
The resulting vertices in VW aren't evenly spaced around the originally selected edge loop.
Wings' circularise leaves the tool in interactive mode after the circularise function has been performed and allows the user to interactively set the amount. Very handy.
Also having a look at Wings again this tool won't work in polygon mode unfortunately as
Also can you give feedbacks on the improved CurveLoop and SpaceLoop.
Keep up the great work!
IStonia: Wings Circularise does indeed flatten it to a plane. I tried to make a more extreme example for you. You can see that it doesn't flatten it a particular world plane so I leave that up to you to decide how to best implement.
I think Wings does a pretty good job of sorting out this mess
The Curve loop works brilliantly so far. Nice one
With regards to hiding the geometry to isolate the operation I'm not sure this would flow well. As a modelling function I think making intricate selections to hide components and then perform the function will hamper workflow (especially if the scene is complex). Also, as an artist 1st, I need to be able to constantly see the area I'm working on in relation to the rest of the mesh. Hiding will disrupt this. Maybe it will be intuitive after having some hands on time.
As a final addendum (and in defense of the Endloop Marker idea) I would probably never use Curve loop in Polygon mode, Mostly in Edge mode and occasionally in Vertex mode.
Maybe we need other Polycount members to give their feedback but this is the way I would personally prefer to work. Continuously making selections then performing the function.
Space Loop currently doesn't behave correctly at the moment. Need to test this a bit further as it completely mangled a mesh earlier but it's working correctly now.
*edit*
Just noticed a BUG with 'loop select' button in edge mode.
With an open mesh if you double click on an open edge it will select the ring but if you single select an open edge and choose 'Loop Select' the operation doesn't work.
Creating a New Streamline tool will clear ALL settings for the rest of the existing Streamline Engine tools.
Current workaround is to Reset Selected tools one by one. Not ideal.
Can you think of any way to implement hotkeys so that pressing the keys in any combination/sequence will activate the targeted tools?
I ask this because I am trying to emulate the setup I have in Silo as accurately as I can in Voidworld.
So I have Ctrl + Alt + RMB = Slide
In VW pressing Ctrl then Alt results in Rotate in viewport. Press Alt then Ctrl results in activating the slide tool.
This is highly undesirable and can cause a lot of frustration when trying to get into any sort of modelling flow.
Similarly if the Ctrl + RMB are released but Alt still held down it should automatically switch to viewport navigation again. VW needs to get rid of any fussy issues like this in order to flow properly.
Thanks, keep up the great work.. Voidworld is really coming together.
p.s. sorry for spamming like this. I'm writing these as they come to me.
I can't reproduce the bug about the streamline tool after new tools are added. Can you explain the steps you used so I can follow to check the bug down?
rooster: Thanks for adding the psychological element into this thread. It can be more valuable than a feature suggestion.
Great progress so far, I can vouch that a lot of people are watching who haven't had a chance to step in with input yet
Ist, Ill try to dig further in it over the weekend. Im also in the process of recording some little modeling videos in Max, Ill send them your way asap since there might be some ideas to get inspiration from.
Modo 501 has some interesting new modelling tools worth taking note. I really like the idea of Modo's Workplane.
[ame="
I've been thinking about what is needed from a great modelling tool and it occurred to me.. 'Order from Chaos'
It's fairly easy to mess things up; pushing and pulling geometry around arbitrarily. But to be able to get mechanical smoothness & evenness back into the model is something that's pretty hard to do by eye.. hmm