Awesome, sounds great. I have to say, at this early stage, the app is really starting to look really promising. I'll be glad too when you can add a background image to work from
Kris: Do you mean the reference images like cars and guns upon which you can block out the model. If so, the tool is there already.
In object mode, open Plane tool, from here, you can create an image plane with the same proportion as the image.
I create a plane.
I add an image because the plane is there.
Once I'm done and click off the plane, the image disappears.
The image reappears when I select the plane.
That doesn't really work. I think the BG image needs to be reworked or am I missing something?
Its weird that you have to create a plane, but the BG image isn't mapped to it, it's just there because of it. I could see if you had to create a plane to add a texture to it to model from, but it's not like that. In other apps, you simply click BACKGROUND IMAGE, select the image and voila, its in the viewport. I don't understand the reasoning behind creating a plane that is just sitting there in 3d space, and you have to be clicked on it to see the background image.
I'm really trying to understand it to make sure I'm grasping everything you're doing with the app, and making sure I'm not overlooking anything.
I don't know why the image dsappears in your case. The recommended way to create an image plane is to click the "Create" button in the "Create With Image" group.
Any way, there is another way to create another kind of Background image. In object mode, select the object, Click to open the "BG Image" tool. Once open it, click the "Add" button, then click Front/Back Img, the programe will lead you to find a image file. Once done, the image will appear in viewport. Hope this is what you are expecting.
I can get the image to work fine now, my problem was that everything is so cluttered where the plane options are that I overlooked the mapping.
There is a thing that you can do to make a viewport image, which is what I was talking about. When you have an object in your scene and press the BG image button, you can add an image to the viewport. After you deselect the object, the image disappears.
I may need to show you with a video if you can't replicate it.
Beatkitano: I opened your box obj file and I saw this vertex position presentation
v -29,849490 0,000015 314,905100
while the correct format should be
v -29.849490 0.000015 314.905100
I suspect that the .net frame work default culture in your computer is France. If not specified, the programe will use the local computer's culture settings. So I add a line of code to force the programe to use US culture. Hope that would fix. http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/VoidWorld-Oct-03.rar
Polyhertz: Can you click the view label top-right of a viewport to bring up a context menu, I suspect that the Show vertices option is off. To connect selected ring edges, please use the "Loop Insert" tool, the button is under edge mode, select the ring edges then right click that button. Can you elaborate about the "Slide" tool. Do you mean I should remove the vertex slide and path selection function from it?
THat was it, no more errordlg and you're right big meshes in silo, but it's working and that's very cool
Kris: Its better to have a video. Otherwise I may understand it in a wrong way.
[Edit]: I may have missed the plane mapping you asked. Here is a vid I made weeks ago. Hope it helps. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH-pCviUSoI[/ame]
BeatKitano: What a relief to know that it works! Lucky having you expose this big bug. Thanks!
Yep you're right, vert display was off in the viewport options. I assume that's a debug option of sorts sense otherwise when a user is in vert mode I don't get why they wouldn't want to see verts?
For connecting selected segments the Loop Insert tool is very limited, not allowing the user to change the number of segments or slide/pinch values. I think it'd make sense to simply give connect the option to only affect selected edges.
Slide needs to work on multiple edge/vert selections at once. Right now its limited to only one vert or one complete edge loop at a time. It needs to work on whatever the user has selected at that time.
Ok, I will remove the vertex visible option.
The Loop Insert tool does have the ability to change segments. If right click that button, that would bring up an option dialog where you can change the segment setting. But it does not have the slide ability. The Streamline Slide tool has this function already. The Loop Insert tool can work on crossing ring edges while the Connect tool can't, so I would just leave it alone. But I will consider to add selection only option into Connect tool.
If the Slide tool needs to work on multiple edges/vertices, it would be a big challenge, their sliding directions can be difficult to determined and even impossible if two loops are vertical to eachother and the result seems hard to control as some may look right already and the others still not. I could be wrong, I need some more time to think about it. Does any app do this?
In response to other apps that can handle multiple component slide: Yep, Max does (Video). Also while its important to have a way to freely slide edges, when connecting edges the user will often want to be able to enter a precise value. Maybe their is a way to do this already with slide+snap?
I can't play the video. I download the codec last time and it still no working, but I can use quicktime to play those previous ones. But quicktime failed this time. Anyway, I will give it a go and you will wait and see if the result is right. For precise position control, the Connect tool does have the value input option, so if I add the selection only option, it should be what your talking about.
Kris: Thanks for the video. I think I understand clearly. What about the Tweak Ctrl mapping, is it ok yet?
Polyhertz: I wonder if in a top view you select a ring of polygons and slide them, how it will work in max? Just try to figure out the algorithm. Thanks!
during primitive creation, esc key will cancel the current operation, enter will confirm.
I tried this on several friends and they're quite confused in the beginning.
Regarding the quad view/single view I was actually proposing Kun that spacebar key assigned to viewport snap, that way we reduce the back-forth going among 4 views. Depending on your persp angle, pressing space might get u to front/left/right/top/bottom and pressing space again will return to persp view. If others agree it should be maya way, then the viewport snap could be possibly assigned to shift+space or ctrl+space.
I was confused about the BG image as well, and your suggestion on silo, and probably modo where you can just drag and drop is a great idea. Good job on your explanation Kris.
I would like to see the space bar snap feature you're talking about before I could comment much on it. I think you may have a point: while modeling in perspective, just rotate slightly to the front of the character and hit space, then bam, you're in FRONT VIEW. This would especially be nice if it snapped to an ortho front that is locked in place - meaning you can't rotate it. Then hitting space bar would put you back into perspective.
Why not using alt-click-drag-shift for that ? Just like in Zbrush. It would bring continuity with another major program, and would leave spacebar available for single view > quad view switching.
There should be a graph node based for the materials. If someday you improve that would be a good idea. Materials the way Max is setup is really bad and ancient. I wouldn't take any of the features of the old material system in max. The new one is good and should be followed.
There should be a graph node based for the materials. If someday you improve that would be a good idea. Materials the way Max is setup is really bad and ancient. I wouldn't take any of the features of the old material system in max. The new one is good and should be followed.
Unless this application is meant to be more than a pure modeler, there's no need for a node-based material editor, especially if there is no render engine in it.
While I will agree on the material editor in this app right now is not only cluttered, but very buggy; it also looks like a 3D Max copycat. Unprettier.
Working on the modeling side of things would be in the program's best interest...but that's my opinion.
Why not using alt-click-drag-shift for that ? Just like in Zbrush. It would bring continuity with another major program, and would leave spacebar available for single view > quad view switching.
Thanks for the suggestion Pior. But Alt + mouse has been mapped to view navigation. So I just mapped Snap view to Shift+Space as suggested by Elte and leave Space for single/Quad viewport.
I meant, keeping alt+mouse for navigation, just like Maya - but if you press shift as an extra modifier, then it would snap to ortho. I dont know if it would feel nice but it seems neat in theory hehe.
But there is a problem though. "Shift+Alt" is Silo's subtract selection key, so if Silo user mapped the Tweak tool to "Ctrl" he may attempt to use this combo.
Considering we're tumbling the scene by holding alt while lmb clicking in the viewport. While the alt is hold, pressing shift will switch to ortho view.
Shift+alt is toggle selection key in voidworld, it works when we're not in tumble mode.
This workaround has a problem though, how do you switch back to persp view? Enabling alt+lmb in ortho? Some people don't like the way you can tumble in ortho view and prefer it to be locked instead.
And again I feel this method might confuse new users and not natural unless they know it or being told that they could do that.
Some people like space to toggle between ortho/persp view in single viewport, some like it to toggle maximize. This could be done by customization but I think we need to consider a wizard in the first launch of the program to help user get their satisfaction
bugo: max's material system is node/graph based now. However id think it'd be optiimal to stick to making an awesome modeler and forget about complex materials and rendering.
Yeah - it can get subtle and cryptic pretty fast. I think a good goal is to focus on the modeling tools first and foremost - because one ought to spend 99% of the time in full screen perspective mode anyways!
One thing that I miss in Silo is scripting capabilities. What would make VoidWorld much more interesting to me would be the ability to integrate technologies like GoZ and 3D-Coat's AppLink. But I do agree that we need to get the modeling tools right first.
Actually, as far as I have experimented, there is no way to split vertex normals in Silo by way of smoothing groups or anything else. 'Crease edges' only causes it to retain shape during subdivision. Breaking edges is possible, but when exported for baking, they don't have the same effect as proper smoothing groups, ie, split vertex normals.
And I don't think .obj can even save that data. Can it really? I have never seen it work.
.fbx handles it well, it's generally what I use (after setting up hard edges in Blender... sigh). Not sure what other formats save smoothing groups / vertex normals proper.
obj does hold smooth groups. It is a letter s followed by an integer value before that group of faces. If save a simple box to obj and open it in a text editor like notepad, you will see.
Actually, as far as I have experimented, there is no way to split vertex normals in Silo by way of smoothing groups or anything else. 'Crease edges' only causes it to retain shape during subdivision. Breaking edges is possible, but when exported for baking, they don't have the same effect as proper smoothing groups, ie, split vertex normals.
You are right, Silo unfortunately does not save the creased edges into an obj. That's why I use Wings hard/soft edges. After exporting the obj with the "hard" edges, the smoothing groups work nicely in 3D-Coat.
I have yet to figure out how to get smoothing groups in VoidWorld to work in 3D-Coat.
i think it would be great to have a small streamlined modeling ap, and (sorry at work have not read entire thread so may be stepping on toes) and think that looking at all of current aps and seeing exactly what tools are used most in each of them and whats ignored could help. also i would murder to have a 3d package like max that had a toggle option to use snaps an measurements like google sketch up. i've gotten to where i use that for most of my non organic environment rough outs.
obj does hold smooth groups. It is a letter s followed by an integer value before that group of faces. If save a simple box to obj and open it in a text editor like notepad, you will see.
That's always interested me. I've seen them in the file there under s before, but never been able to import them properly in any application. Everything gets rebuilt as averaged. Oh well, must only be me.
GregD3, Vrav: It depends on the importer if the smoothing group works or not. Some importers may not support and ignore them. One thing can try now is to export vertex normals as well (Edit > File Format Options) and see how the importer react. The other possiblity is to split vertices according to smoothing, I will add an exporting option for this.
Rhinokey: Can you give an example of how the snap as measurement works. It sounds interesting.
IStonia: Thanks. The primary concern is being able to set up smoothing groups for proper normal map baking. In regards to split vertices, they aren't the same. I guess I am the only person concerned here, but I've never had any luck importing objs with smoothing groups into xNormal or any other program whatsoever - which means that if I used your program for modeling something I wanted to bake lighting detail to, I'd have to take the obj into another program and set up smoothing groups to export in another file format.
Not really a "problem," since if the modeling workflow in VoidWorld is worth using it for, that's something I can overlook, and live with... just saying. I'm also guessing I am the only person with any problems ever trying to use obj to save vertex normal data in, since no-one else seems to be bothered, so whatever works for everyone else is surely fine. I've just never had any luck with it.
IStonia, exporting vertex normals worked, thanks. In the future it would also be useful to derive smoothing groups from edge hard/soft settings. And also if subdivision respected the smoothing groups.
....or faces, or single verts, like Maya's normal editing tools. Smoothing groups are an arse-baackwards way of editing normals in my opinion. One of the few areas where Maya>Max. Please don't use Max as the standard for this area.
* Welding and bridging can be performed across meshes.
* Cap hole and bridge hole features are added into edge D tool. D + MMB click first edge to cap hole. D + MMB click second edge to bridge edge.
* On primitive creation, "Escape"|cancel, "Enter"|Confirm.
* The programe remembers its previous size on Startup.
* "Space" = single/quad viewport, "Shift+Sapce" = snap view.
* Move manipulator's behaviour improved.
* A bug in Cut tool fixed which occurs if try to cut inside a polygon.
* Selection Only option is added to edge Connect tool
* Selection slide feature is added into Tweak(PickThrough) tool V+MMB.
* BG Image tool reworked.
* Edge Harden/Soften command tools are added. Their operations are smoothing flag independent.
* Sudivision mesh's smoothing can be the same as base mesh If relative option in Preference is set.
* Edge [select hard edges] and [split selected edges] command tools are added.
Currently the BG image doesnt match the dimension of reference image we're using. My suggestion on BG image tool:
1. Put the toggle button in every viewport to toggle BG image visibility.
2. Ability to scale and rotate.
3. Ability to set transparency level.
4. Reset button to restore to its original state.
5. The creation of BG image tool match the dimension of the image we use.
Nice update, Thanks!
The edge hard/soft work well. It's much easier to setup smoothing groups now.
If subdivision could crease the hard edges, then we've got a winner here.
* vertex snapping improved. Previously, the selected vertex attempt to snap to itself or its attaching edges and faces.
* Edge Harden/Soften operations can be performed on subdivision meshes, but the [Subdivision smoothing same as base mesh] option must set to On thrugh Edge > Prefernce, otherwise the changes won't appear in subdivision mesh.
* Hard edge threshold angle is introduced, default value is 145 degrees, can be adjusted in Preference. This value is used to determine if a new edge is hard/soft base on the anlge between its two faces during Extrude/Inset/Hinge/chamfer operations.
* BG Image tool improved. dimension bug fixed. If the tool is opened and the viewport is selected, the image can be moved/scaled/rotated by manipulators. Transparency fearture is added, but I use the word opacity cause its shorter. When Hovering the cursor over the viewport, Shift+scroll can be used to adjust the image's opacity. Image visible can be toggled through a new viewport button.
Replies
In object mode, open Plane tool, from here, you can create an image plane with the same proportion as the image.
I create a plane.
I add an image because the plane is there.
Once I'm done and click off the plane, the image disappears.
The image reappears when I select the plane.
That doesn't really work. I think the BG image needs to be reworked or am I missing something?
Its weird that you have to create a plane, but the BG image isn't mapped to it, it's just there because of it. I could see if you had to create a plane to add a texture to it to model from, but it's not like that. In other apps, you simply click BACKGROUND IMAGE, select the image and voila, its in the viewport. I don't understand the reasoning behind creating a plane that is just sitting there in 3d space, and you have to be clicked on it to see the background image.
I'm really trying to understand it to make sure I'm grasping everything you're doing with the app, and making sure I'm not overlooking anything.
Any way, there is another way to create another kind of Background image. In object mode, select the object, Click to open the "BG Image" tool. Once open it, click the "Add" button, then click Front/Back Img, the programe will lead you to find a image file. Once done, the image will appear in viewport. Hope this is what you are expecting.
There is a thing that you can do to make a viewport image, which is what I was talking about. When you have an object in your scene and press the BG image button, you can add an image to the viewport. After you deselect the object, the image disappears.
I may need to show you with a video if you can't replicate it.
THat was it, no more errordlg and you're right big meshes in silo, but it's working and that's very cool
[Edit]: I may have missed the plane mapping you asked. Here is a vid I made weeks ago. Hope it helps. [ame]
BeatKitano: What a relief to know that it works! Lucky having you expose this big bug. Thanks!
For connecting selected segments the Loop Insert tool is very limited, not allowing the user to change the number of segments or slide/pinch values. I think it'd make sense to simply give connect the option to only affect selected edges.
Slide needs to work on multiple edge/vert selections at once. Right now its limited to only one vert or one complete edge loop at a time. It needs to work on whatever the user has selected at that time.
The Loop Insert tool does have the ability to change segments. If right click that button, that would bring up an option dialog where you can change the segment setting. But it does not have the slide ability. The Streamline Slide tool has this function already. The Loop Insert tool can work on crossing ring edges while the Connect tool can't, so I would just leave it alone. But I will consider to add selection only option into Connect tool.
If the Slide tool needs to work on multiple edges/vertices, it would be a big challenge, their sliding directions can be difficult to determined and even impossible if two loops are vertical to eachother and the result seems hard to control as some may look right already and the others still not. I could be wrong, I need some more time to think about it. Does any app do this?
www.vertexcomplex.com/VoidWorld.rar (it should play in every video player)
Hopefully it helps you see all the things I've been saying so far
Polyhertz: I wonder if in a top view you select a ring of polygons and slide them, how it will work in max? Just try to figure out the algorithm. Thanks!
during primitive creation, esc key will cancel the current operation, enter will confirm.
I tried this on several friends and they're quite confused in the beginning.
Regarding the quad view/single view I was actually proposing Kun that spacebar key assigned to viewport snap, that way we reduce the back-forth going among 4 views. Depending on your persp angle, pressing space might get u to front/left/right/top/bottom and pressing space again will return to persp view. If others agree it should be maya way, then the viewport snap could be possibly assigned to shift+space or ctrl+space.
I was confused about the BG image as well, and your suggestion on silo, and probably modo where you can just drag and drop is a great idea. Good job on your explanation Kris.
I would like to see the space bar snap feature you're talking about before I could comment much on it. I think you may have a point: while modeling in perspective, just rotate slightly to the front of the character and hit space, then bam, you're in FRONT VIEW. This would especially be nice if it snapped to an ortho front that is locked in place - meaning you can't rotate it. Then hitting space bar would put you back into perspective.
If that's what you mean, that is.
Could work.
Unless this application is meant to be more than a pure modeler, there's no need for a node-based material editor, especially if there is no render engine in it.
While I will agree on the material editor in this app right now is not only cluttered, but very buggy; it also looks like a 3D Max copycat. Unprettier.
Working on the modeling side of things would be in the program's best interest...but that's my opinion.
Thanks for the suggestion Pior. But Alt + mouse has been mapped to view navigation. So I just mapped Snap view to Shift+Space as suggested by Elte and leave Space for single/Quad viewport.
Considering we're tumbling the scene by holding alt while lmb clicking in the viewport. While the alt is hold, pressing shift will switch to ortho view.
Shift+alt is toggle selection key in voidworld, it works when we're not in tumble mode.
This workaround has a problem though, how do you switch back to persp view? Enabling alt+lmb in ortho? Some people don't like the way you can tumble in ortho view and prefer it to be locked instead.
And again I feel this method might confuse new users and not natural unless they know it or being told that they could do that.
Some people like space to toggle between ortho/persp view in single viewport, some like it to toggle maximize. This could be done by customization but I think we need to consider a wizard in the first launch of the program to help user get their satisfaction
And I don't think .obj can even save that data. Can it really? I have never seen it work.
.fbx handles it well, it's generally what I use (after setting up hard edges in Blender... sigh). Not sure what other formats save smoothing groups / vertex normals proper.
You are right, Silo unfortunately does not save the creased edges into an obj. That's why I use Wings hard/soft edges. After exporting the obj with the "hard" edges, the smoothing groups work nicely in 3D-Coat.
I have yet to figure out how to get smoothing groups in VoidWorld to work in 3D-Coat.
Rhinokey: Can you give an example of how the snap as measurement works. It sounds interesting.
Not really a "problem," since if the modeling workflow in VoidWorld is worth using it for, that's something I can overlook, and live with... just saying. I'm also guessing I am the only person with any problems ever trying to use obj to save vertex normal data in, since no-one else seems to be bothered, so whatever works for everyone else is surely fine. I've just never had any luck with it.
Correct.
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/VoidWorld-Oct-11.rar
Summary of changes
* Welding and bridging can be performed across meshes.
* Cap hole and bridge hole features are added into edge D tool. D + MMB click first edge to cap hole. D + MMB click second edge to bridge edge.
* On primitive creation, "Escape"|cancel, "Enter"|Confirm.
* The programe remembers its previous size on Startup.
* "Space" = single/quad viewport, "Shift+Sapce" = snap view.
* Move manipulator's behaviour improved.
* A bug in Cut tool fixed which occurs if try to cut inside a polygon.
* Selection Only option is added to edge Connect tool
* Selection slide feature is added into Tweak(PickThrough) tool V+MMB.
* BG Image tool reworked.
* Edge Harden/Soften command tools are added. Their operations are smoothing flag independent.
* Sudivision mesh's smoothing can be the same as base mesh If relative option in Preference is set.
* Edge [select hard edges] and [split selected edges] command tools are added.
Thanks!
1. Put the toggle button in every viewport to toggle BG image visibility.
2. Ability to scale and rotate.
3. Ability to set transparency level.
4. Reset button to restore to its original state.
5. The creation of BG image tool match the dimension of the image we use.
What I did was select ring of face and perform s+rmb
The edge hard/soft work well. It's much easier to setup smoothing groups now.
If subdivision could crease the hard edges, then we've got a winner here.
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/VoidWorld-Oct-14.rar
Summary of changes
* vertex snapping improved. Previously, the selected vertex attempt to snap to itself or its attaching edges and faces.
* Edge Harden/Soften operations can be performed on subdivision meshes, but the [Subdivision smoothing same as base mesh] option must set to On thrugh Edge > Prefernce, otherwise the changes won't appear in subdivision mesh.
* Hard edge threshold angle is introduced, default value is 145 degrees, can be adjusted in Preference. This value is used to determine if a new edge is hard/soft base on the anlge between its two faces during Extrude/Inset/Hinge/chamfer operations.
* BG Image tool improved. dimension bug fixed. If the tool is opened and the viewport is selected, the image can be moved/scaled/rotated by manipulators. Transparency fearture is added, but I use the word opacity cause its shorter. When Hovering the cursor over the viewport, Shift+scroll can be used to adjust the image's opacity. Image visible can be toggled through a new viewport button.
Thanks!