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How The F*#% Do I Model This? - Reply for help with specific shapes - (Post attempt before asking)

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  • BladeSharpe
    sacboi said:
    @BladeSharpe looks like you're almost there.

    Exspanding upon zachagreg's well thought out examples that really is a key aspect to think about or in other words pre-planning prior to modeling anything, will mostly mitigate potential problems from occurring, any how a few additional points to keep in mind:


    Cheers.

    Hello again, yes perfect! I agree I did not pre-plan my layout enough. I was working of a very very high res side profile photo I took for reference, lining it up almost exactly. (posted below) but sadly I neglected getting a top down reference photo but that was okay in my head as I did have the real thing in my hand. (I agree I should have taken a top down photo) anyway yes this is how I will be approaching the other three knives to come. I really appiciate the help with getting it fixed with the hole and the side shading is due to slight differences in the vertices.

  • sacboi
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    sacboi ngon master
    Just a quick mention I forgot to add in my post above. So when required if moving selected loop cuts during the course of manually editing a mesh and object faces are explicitly non conformed too a given axis plus also importantly, to maintain uniform edge spacing, I'd also utilised Blender's - special menu transform function 'Edge Slide'.

    Simply because it's attribute allows for movement over one or more edges across adjacent faces with few restrictions, as opposed to 'Constrain To Axis' hence a handy tool shelf option to have if dealing with multiple 'uneven' poly strips.
     

  • BladeSharpe
    sacboi said:
    Just a quick mention I forgot to add in my post above. So when required if moving selected loop cuts during the course of manually editing a mesh and object faces are explicitly non conformed too a given axis plus also importantly, to maintain even edge spacing, I'd also utilised Blender's - special menu transform function 'Edge Slide'.

    Simply because it's attribute allows for movement over one or more edges across adjacent faces with few restrictions, as opposed to 'Constrain To Axis' hence a handy tool shelf option to have if dealing with multiple 'uneven' poly strips.
     

    Thanks I really appiciate that, I use Maya and I use edge slide all the time. very useful!

  • RocKenny
    Hey, I know this issue will seem very basic, but I have been struggling with understanding this topology a little, i understand how to intersect cylinders with cylinders and squares etc, but I seem to be unable to understand how to terminate edges in this specific scenario (I was trying to model a gun cylinder, this was just a quick recreation of the issue)

    I apologize if it was answered here already in some shape or form, i havent found anything like this though. 

    PS : I am not afraid to use Ngons, wanted to use quads to better understand model building though (The triangles i have are easy to remove to form a quad so i ignored them in this case)
  • Krychazz
    Hi, How would I model this? I use Blender and HardOps and tried to use boolean but I can't really get a good result, any tips?

  • zachagreg
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    zachagreg ngon master
    @RocKenny So it might not be an issue because that square cuts the length of your cylinder but generally you don't want to just extrude outwards because it can mess up your curved surface. So what I've done is inset those top two faces first then extruded and used the already existing geo as my lower support loop. I then terminated my edges on the flat faces to avoid pinching in the corners.

    I went ahead and killed any ngons I had to show you that you don't need to use them so to speak. The second reinforcing edge isn't really needed for this one but it helps to clean up the top reinforcing edges and avoid the ngon. Here is the smoothed version.
     For the upper one just cut into that vert where the weird quad appeared and then follow your reinforcing edges up and over and under the square piece. You've got a naturally corner at that section anyways so you will so reinforce the corner when doing so.

  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx interpolator
    RocKenny said:
    Hey, I know this issue will seem very basic, but I have been struggling with understanding this topology a little, i understand how to intersect cylinders with cylinders and squares etc, but I seem to be unable to understand how to terminate edges in this specific scenario (I was trying to model a gun cylinder, this was just a quick recreation of the issue)

    I apologize if it was answered here already in some shape or form, i havent found anything like this though. 

    PS : I am not afraid to use Ngons, wanted to use quads to better understand model building though (The triangles i have are easy to remove to form a quad so i ignored them in this case)
    First stage is to identify your two meshes that we can merge.
    Second step is to make sure to use our cylinders topology can be used to support the box on top of it.
    Third steps is boolean and a small clean up.
    Fourth step is to use a chamfer on all the edges to create extra supporting loops.
    Fith step is to add a turbosmooth.

  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx interpolator
    Krychazz said:
    Hi, How would I model this? I use Blender and HardOps and tried to use boolean but I can't really get a good result, any tips?

    Find the problem. Try to tackle it from different perspective. It's a cut from the current cylinder.
    One thing I've learned this year is. Identify the problem and find a solution.
    You have the solution which we will call  Z. That is the end result.
    You already have X which is the cylinder.

    You just need to find the Y in the allegorithm.  x+y = z. Yes farfetched. But but.


  • Krychazz
    Thank you so much! I was going for it similar way but i was chamfering my cutter object
  • RocKenny
    Thank you both very much, i shall practice further. Superb help
  • IronLover64
    I'm having trouble with these shapes. How should I model them? Software (Blender)
  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx interpolator
    I'm having trouble with these shapes. How should I model them? Software (Blender)

    barely visible what you are trying to show there tbh. Which shapes exactly? where do they connect?
  • IronLover64
    wirrexx said:
    I'm having trouble with these shapes. How should I model them? Software (Blender)

    barely visible what you are trying to show there tbh. Which shapes exactly? where do they connect?
    The first picture is trying to merge the two mesh as one model. Booleans don't work because of how narrow the angle is. The second one is my attempt at making a cockpit on incompatible topology. Boolean was the most accurate, but it creates shading issues just under the red glass (I used every trick I know of and nothing helped. The third one is attempting to punch multiple holes on a mesh with higher poly curves. I want to find the best solutions with minimal problems.
  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx interpolator
    wirrexx said:
    I'm having trouble with these shapes. How should I model them? Software (Blender)

    barely visible what you are trying to show there tbh. Which shapes exactly? where do they connect?
    The first picture is trying to merge the two mesh as one model. Booleans don't work because of how narrow the angle is. The second one is my attempt at making a cockpit on incompatible topology. Boolean was the most accurate, but it creates shading issues just under the red glass (I used every trick I know of and nothing helped. The third one is attempting to punch multiple holes on a mesh with higher poly curves. I want to find the best solutions with minimal problems.
    Show us the entire thing or at least a reference of what you are trying to achieve, right now it is very unclear.
  • IronLover64
    wirrexx said:
    wirrexx said:
    I'm having trouble with these shapes. How should I model them? Software (Blender)

    barely visible what you are trying to show there tbh. Which shapes exactly? where do they connect?
    The first picture is trying to merge the two mesh as one model. Booleans don't work because of how narrow the angle is. The second one is my attempt at making a cockpit on incompatible topology. Boolean was the most accurate, but it creates shading issues just under the red glass (I used every trick I know of and nothing helped. The third one is attempting to punch multiple holes on a mesh with higher poly curves. I want to find the best solutions with minimal problems.
    Show us the entire thing or at least a reference of what you are trying to achieve, right now it is very unclear.
    Picture 1 shows the second mesh where the front body slope just fuses into the main wing in the bottom middle of the aircraft. The second shows the holes in the tank skirt. Pic 3 shows what the cockpit is meant to look like.
  • Krychazz
    Hi!
    I'm trying to model this detail:

    its a cylinder like shape that transitions to flat surface. I tried few approaches, the best one was to create cylinder, cut 3/4 of it and then extrude the side as flat faces. That works great up until when I need to make the flat corner transition:

    I tried adding a lot more topology in that area but just couldn't get that shape, any tips on how to tackle transitions like that?

  • HAWK12HT
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    HAWK12HT polycounter lvl 8
    Hi all, noticed this slight pinching in default 3ds max viewport while doing my practice using the methods shown in this thread. I know its the perfectionist in me killing it, 3d programs like max and maya are not cad tools however just need some advice on this that should I just let it go or is there some other way on this age old issue. I ll get a lot of heat for this I know lol cause I have been using this thread from page 1 during my 3d modelling warm-up sessions its just one of those moments while working I am like lets talk about it on this awesome thread maybe I missed something.  


    EDIT: I also tried a double TS method (16side cylinder applied TS 1 made the extrusion with inset first then usual support loops and then TS 2) pretty much the same result as the images below. 
    Also I did a quick bake test in Substance Painter and well I dont see that slight pinch that is visible in max viewport so guess its just me making my life difficult lol 



  • IronLover64
    I am trying to separate the glass from the cockpit body, but I haven't found a good way to do so. I want the separated glass to be perfect 90 degree angles like the blueprint. When I use booleans, it creates artifacts. Is there a better way to do this? (reposed for precision reasons)
  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx interpolator
    HAWK12HT said:
    Hi all, noticed this slight pinching in default 3ds max viewport while doing my practice using the methods shown in this thread. I know its the perfectionist in me killing it, 3d programs like max and maya are not cad tools however just need some advice on this that should I just let it go or is there some other way on this age old issue. I ll get a lot of heat for this I know lol cause I have been using this thread from page 1 during my 3d modelling warm-up sessions its just one of those moments while working I am like lets talk about it on this awesome thread maybe I missed something.  




    The thing is, you will always have a pinch that is visible or barely visible, if you use less edge segments,  try to land the geometry between the cylinders segments and use them as supporting loops. I used a 24 sided Cylinder, the more i add to my cylinder the "harder" i can get the edges to be.

    so this is my example with a 24 sided cylinder. The higher segments the "tighter" you can make the edges without getting pinches.

    and one with 42 segments
  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx interpolator
    Krychazz said:
    Hi!
    I'm trying to model this detail:

    its a cylinder like shape that transitions to flat surface. I tried few approaches, the best one was to create cylinder, cut 3/4 of it and then extrude the side as flat faces. That works great up until when I need to make the flat corner transition:

    I tried adding a lot more topology in that area but just couldn't get that shape, any tips on how to tackle transitions like that?

    sorry for the late one, i struggled myself with that one because i dont really know what's happening under or what gun that is. References should be clean and if possible in a better view.

    Can't really see what's Happening under the gun or what gun that is.


  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx interpolator
    I am trying to separate the glass from the cockpit body, but I haven't found a good way to do so. I want the separated glass to be perfect 90 degree angles like the blueprint. When I use booleans, it creates artifacts. Is there a better way to do this? (reposed for precision reasons)

    hey mate sorry for the late answer, i acctually did a type of fix for you yesterday, but PC Crashed on me, which lost me my progression. So you are on the right way, but try to built the cage of your main mesh.

    So, what i did was, i modelled the entire body (without cuts or booleans). Then i subd it a couple of time. i Did a retopo on top of my highpoly mesh and used shrink wrap =)
  • IronLover64
    wirrexx said:
    I am trying to separate the glass from the cockpit body, but I haven't found a good way to do so. I want the separated glass to be perfect 90 degree angles like the blueprint. When I use booleans, it creates artifacts. Is there a better way to do this? (reposed for precision reasons)

    hey mate sorry for the late answer, i acctually did a type of fix for you yesterday, but PC Crashed on me, which lost me my progression. So you are on the right way, but try to built the cage of your main mesh.

    So, what i did was, i modelled the entire body (without cuts or booleans). Then i subd it a couple of time. i Did a retopo on top of my highpoly mesh and used shrink wrap =)
    Thanks for your effort and I really appreciate it.
  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx interpolator
    wirrexx said:
    I am trying to separate the glass from the cockpit body, but I haven't found a good way to do so. I want the separated glass to be perfect 90 degree angles like the blueprint. When I use booleans, it creates artifacts. Is there a better way to do this? (reposed for precision reasons)

    hey mate sorry for the late answer, i acctually did a type of fix for you yesterday, but PC Crashed on me, which lost me my progression. So you are on the right way, but try to built the cage of your main mesh.

    So, what i did was, i modelled the entire body (without cuts or booleans). Then i subd it a couple of time. i Did a retopo on top of my highpoly mesh and used shrink wrap =)
    Thanks for your effort and I really appreciate it.



  • HAWK12HT
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    HAWK12HT polycounter lvl 8


    @wirrexx you are a rockstar mate! 
    I was using 32 sides and trying both offset and direct edge extrude as you can see in examples however that one crucial piece was to use the vertical segment for the hard crease which you showed from there it was just adding a pair of extra edge loops to tighten up that pinch and voila I can now sleep. Thank you!!!!! 

    Those who may stumble here also note you can add more edge loops around the base of extrusion to get super sharp extrusion, I tried that however ignore this for baking as you will need to give more roundness to your hard edges anyways for AA, distance view and mipmaps etc. 


  • PetrMaxa
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    PetrMaxa polycounter lvl 5
    How would you model this kind of transition? (maya) Bridge and blend does not do the work :disappointed:
  • PetrMaxa
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    PetrMaxa polycounter lvl 5
    Ahhh :D i've forgot wedge tool :D
  • IronLover64
    wirrexx said:
    I am trying to separate the glass from the cockpit body, but I haven't found a good way to do so. I want the separated glass to be perfect 90 degree angles like the blueprint. When I use booleans, it creates artifacts. Is there a better way to do this? (reposed for precision reasons)

    hey mate sorry for the late answer, i acctually did a type of fix for you yesterday, but PC Crashed on me, which lost me my progression. So you are on the right way, but try to built the cage of your main mesh.

    So, what i did was, i modelled the entire body (without cuts or booleans). Then i subd it a couple of time. i Did a retopo on top of my highpoly mesh and used shrink wrap =)
    Alright, so I tried the shrinkwrap techniques and while it made the shading a bit better, I still notice artifacts here. Since my topology is incompatible for bevels, what should I do as a solution to these artifacts?
  • sacboi
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    sacboi ngon master
    If you're working off the reference image? then there appears to be a distinct hard edged border rather than a smooth transition between the two adjoining regions so I'd suggest modeling that shape as a separate object.
     
  • IronLover64
    sacboi said:
    If you're working off the reference image? then there appears to be a distinct hard edged border rather than a smooth transition between the two adjoining regions so I'd suggest modeling that shape as a separate object.
     
    I actually want to make my own version of it with the technique I just used. While inaccurate, it's precise. The reference image is only to show what it is
  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx interpolator

    wirrexx said:
    I am trying to separate the glass from the cockpit body, but I haven't found a good way to do so. I want the separated glass to be perfect 90 degree angles like the blueprint. When I use booleans, it creates artifacts. Is there a better way to do this? (reposed for precision reasons)

    hey mate sorry for the late answer, i acctually did a type of fix for you yesterday, but PC Crashed on me, which lost me my progression. So you are on the right way, but try to built the cage of your main mesh.

    So, what i did was, i modelled the entire body (without cuts or booleans). Then i subd it a couple of time. i Did a retopo on top of my highpoly mesh and used shrink wrap =)
    Alright, so I tried the shrinkwrap techniques and while it made the shading a bit better, I still notice artifacts here. Since my topology is incompatible for bevels, what should I do as a solution to these artifacts?


  • IronLover64
    wirrexx said:

    wirrexx said:
    I am trying to separate the glass from the cockpit body, but I haven't found a good way to do so. I want the separated glass to be perfect 90 degree angles like the blueprint. When I use booleans, it creates artifacts. Is there a better way to do this? (reposed for precision reasons)

    hey mate sorry for the late answer, i acctually did a type of fix for you yesterday, but PC Crashed on me, which lost me my progression. So you are on the right way, but try to built the cage of your main mesh.

    So, what i did was, i modelled the entire body (without cuts or booleans). Then i subd it a couple of time. i Did a retopo on top of my highpoly mesh and used shrink wrap =)
    Alright, so I tried the shrinkwrap techniques and while it made the shading a bit better, I still notice artifacts here. Since my topology is incompatible for bevels, what should I do as a solution to these artifacts?


    Thanks for that, but the real challenge of this mesh is that the line separating the body and cockpit are 90 degree lines while your solution's separation line is curved downwards.
  • IronLover64
    For anyone else needing more reference, here are the blueprints I used
  • IronLover64
    sacboi said:
    IronLover64 said: When I use booleans, it creates artifacts. Is there a better way to do this? (reposed for precision reasons)
    Also worthwhile to note, when cutting into a mesh, giving some thought too topology design from the outset will often determine output as shown by the boolean operation. So lateral loops instead of a longitudinal edge flow and the result would've required minimal 'cleanup'

      

    This is a dumb thing to day, but while it could be a decent solution, I am not able to find a good way to execute this without failing. Is there a tutorial for this? And thank you.
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    @IronLover64
    The solution is to use something called sub-division modeling, wherein you start with a low-rez cage instead of a hi-rez primitive and apply this: https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/2.79/modeling/modifiers/generate/subsurf.html
    Sub-d makes it easier to control the flow of the mesh to allow pieces to line up properly. Notice how sacboi's topmost wireframe has very few control points while still describing a smooth surface. That's the technique in question.
  • Prime8
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    Prime8 greentooth
    @IronLover64 I would combine the already good advice given here.
    Use a guide mesh and shrink wrap, as in the video, but use a more fitting topology for the mesh on top.
    In addition to that I would use a data transfer modifier to transfer the shading of the guide mesh.
    It does make thinks more complicated but it is worth it, depending on how you proceed with your mesh editing you will have to utilize vertex groups to limit the data transfer.
    Crude example:
  • IronLover64
    Prime8 said:
    @IronLover64 I would combine the already good advice given here.
    Use a guide mesh and shrink wrap, as in the video, but use a more fitting topology for the mesh on top.
    In addition to that I would use a data transfer modifier to transfer the shading of the guide mesh.
    It does make thinks more complicated but it is worth it, depending on how you proceed with your mesh editing you will have to utilize vertex groups to limit the data transfer.
    Crude example:
    It worked! It actually worked! Thank you so much!
  • IronLover64
    sacboi said:
    IronLover64 said: When I use booleans, it creates artifacts. Is there a better way to do this? (reposed for precision reasons)
    Also worthwhile to note, when cutting into a mesh, giving some thought too topology design from the outset will often determine output as shown by the boolean operation. So lateral loops instead of a longitudinal edge flow and the result would've required minimal 'cleanup'

      

    This might be a decent solution, but is there a tutorial for making this kind of mesh? Every attempt I've made goes horribly wrong
  • IronLover64
    sacboi said:
    IronLover64 said: When I use booleans, it creates artifacts. Is there a better way to do this? (reposed for precision reasons)
    Also worthwhile to note, when cutting into a mesh, giving some thought too topology design from the outset will often determine output as shown by the boolean operation. So lateral loops instead of a longitudinal edge flow and the result would've required minimal 'cleanup'

      

    This might be a decent solution, but is there a tutorial for making this kind of mesh? Every attempt I've made goes horribly wrong
  • IronLover64
    Apologies for the last 2 messages. These two were posted as a mistake
  • sixbysix
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    sixbysix polycounter lvl 6
    Okay, this is probably a really simple one for you guys, but I', wondering what the best workflow is to not propagate support loops all over the mesh when doing additional details. My solution here is working because these are flat surfaces, but it's quite ugly and there must be a more beautiful way to solve this, right? Thankfull for any hints.


  • zachagreg
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    zachagreg ngon master
    @sixbysix what do you mean by "it's ugly"? The cage of the subdiv surface? What's this mesh for? It might not matter if the cage is ugly if it shades right
  • sixbysix
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    sixbysix polycounter lvl 6
    zachagreg said:
    @sixbysix what do you mean by "it's ugly"? The cage of the subdiv surface? What's this mesh for? It might not matter if the cage is ugly if it shades right
    Yep. It's a SubD model, here's how the isoparms look like. Doesnt look like proper edge flow.


  • zachagreg
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    zachagreg ngon master
    You could put in subdivisions for areas that are large but it doesn't really matter as long as it shades correctly and gives you the correct forms
  • sixbysix
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    sixbysix polycounter lvl 6
    I have to add some details in the flat areas, I'm trying not to make it too hard on myself later ;) Just came up with a solution that works for me.


  • sacboi
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    sacboi ngon master
    Pre planning your topology approach if there are likely additional detail editing/iterations further along the modeling process, I've personally found generally streamlines a given workflow to a degree however dependent on an intended goal for finalisation too begin with.  
  • HAWK12HT
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    HAWK12HT polycounter lvl 8
    @sixbysix go a bit above and few pages back, I and wirex shared the workflow to this that work on curves so your surface is flat and should work for this too.

  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx interpolator
    sixbysix said:
    I have to add some details in the flat areas, I'm trying not to make it too hard on myself later ;) Just came up with a solution that works for me.


    I mean, it is a flat surface, so i would not care to have it quaded. And if  this is a doorway for a game, i would simple not do a hp version of it I would keep it low, with beveled edges to make it smoother.

    And the last one is if i am going to sculpt on it in zbrush, i make a mesh with even quads and tesselate it 3 or more times before exporting.

  • IronLover64
    I want to make the intersection of the main body and the wing as shown on the physical model. The slope angle is very narrow and it's curved, so it creates issues. Is there a better way to model this? Booleans don't work well.
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