There are a few of us here at Polycount that went to that school. His portfolio is a pretty clear example of the type of class assignments that were handed out there. Someone forgot to tell him that going to class and doing the assignments does not equal job. All the 3d stuff I made in my classes was pretty crappy, but I spent time after class and at home working on mods, and doing random stuff to get as much practice/experience as I could.
The only good things I pulled out of UAT were my experiences working in teams on projects, the extra time spent in life-drawing and a knowledge of level/game design that will help me later on in my career.
Any of you other UATer's have thoughts on this?
Although since UAT was more of a technical college than a place to sharpen artist skills, having gone into the school with prior art schooling/crit experience made it easier to move forward and into a job than it appears this guy had.
Allowing those with the heart and mind to work with great commitment to make up for their inexperience can be a huge step toward stabilizing and expanding the industry and ensuring that fresh and creative talent is always on hand.
Sounds more like the cause of overtime, crunch, missed deadlines, poor quality games, poor sales, less stability, small startups going under, and more of the same. No thanks. I'd rather not see that "piggy bank" model in any game I purchase.
his portfolio hurt my brain more than what he wrote. This dude has gotta be on drugs... or he needs to start doing some form of them. I hate to bag on other ppl's work, but his portfolio just doesn't show drive. He just fits into the class of students that think when they get their degree they'll get a nicely wrapped box filled with "skillz".
although I'm impressed that he zbrushed the sink... and I have no clue what he actually did in zbrush with it. That takes skillzzz.
I wonder where this misconception about game development comes from? I know all that people "outside" the industry see are very polished work and highly finished products, but that's devoid of any context or concept relative to the 'time' and 'skill' required to make those things. Having dabbled in modelling (like he obviously did on the course) does peoples enthusiasm 'blind' their realistic expectations about it all?
If it didn't say UAT, i would have thought this guy to be a joke. Like he made a bunch of shitty models and a site just to he could bitch. But when you bring UAT into the fold then it all makes sense...
I still remember when i thought that you could go to school then get a job designing games. I had no idea that the title of designer was one that you only get with time in the industry. Even more so that to make games it meant you had to work... This guys stuff reminds me of 98% of the people in the art side of my graduating class from UAT. Work that in class would get them an A+ (very lax grading) so believed that this care for production quality was good enough to warrant a job. I had a few roommates that posted on PC even, but started so too late because they were showing off their "finished" portfolios for praise. Only to find out that what they were calling hot shit was just shit.
The schools don't care about the students they care about getting paid. They give kids some false hope that they have what it takes to make games only to find out that they still need years of hard work until they would be ready. I don't get it how so many can truthfully believe that when they look at their work that they should be getting paid for it. No one tells them to think from the other side so they don't they just get pissed off and blog like this guy.
What a fucking moron. This guy has an open forum to criticize the deplorable state of 3D/digital art schools and programs, and if he had put together a cogent and comprehensive case, he probably would have had a receptive audience. God knows the vast majority of us were taught almost nothing in school regarding CG other than what we taught ourselves.
But this moron decides to "harangue" the game industry. One which he knows nothing about and will probably never work in after that god awful article. Some of his sentiments are correct (much of the shortcomings of the education system) but his feelings about the industry are laughable and naive. What a blown opportunity. And students after him will continue to experience the same thing, thanks for helping nothing and destroying any career you may have had at the same time!
I should end the post there but I just find the rationale of his argument so absurd. "I really want to work in the industry! But my portfolio stinks." guy should be taken over the "I really want to work in the industry so I worked extra hard on my portfolio" guy (or girl). And apparently slacker A is the hope and future of the game industry rather than achiever B, who will 'burn out' (I assume burning out is the inevitable consequence of working, in the author's opinion). Yeesh.
"I just want the industry to be aware that there are people out there with deep passion and love for this medium who simply want a chance. Even a phone interview would be nice. I'm not telling the industry to give every Joe Sunday a career, but at least talk to people who claim they are passionate. Find out if they are talking through their nether regions or not."
Is this guy kidding? Yes, please, give a phone interview to every jackoff who doesn't have the skill to land a job but is "passionate". That's not a waste of time or money...
pretty much like saying all strippers should give guys free lap dances who may not have the money, but are "passionate" about getting one. I'd support that.
Yeah. That was some of the worst CG work I've ever seen...
How can you look at that...and then look at any recent game and think "yeah, I'm good enough"?
He needs to go to art school, screw game dev technical school.
I started reading the article, wanting to give the guy a break...I mean...I've been into game art & 3d for a looooong time and I dont have an industry job yet either (I've never applied at a single place, though...so that might be why).
But this guy...his arguments are logically false. Pretty silly. I wonder if more talented, rational & patient friends of his are going to explain to him the error of his ways.
You know what is funny, I am in the same boat as this guy as far as a full time position, and I am not crying about it. I know plenty of artists who did not get their foot in the door right away, and he needs to suck it up, and get better. Geezus and I were upset for the longest time because we did not land positions (now he works with Red Storm) and I am doing freelance. I guarantee that I am just as passionate, if not even more than him about games. Stop bitchin dude, and start polycountin!
Edit: Oh yeah, I work at Best Buy too, I bet he doesn't have to deal with that type of job all day, but I am doing what I need to in order to get by and strive for a full time gig.
well he does have a few good points, and give the guy some slack he says out right his portfolio is crap...
I can tell ya I would at least like someone at the game companies to call me back or shoot me an email and say "sorry, we just aren't interested at this time..." or "Your current art does not meet our standards" but out of 80 or 90 resumes sent, I only got about 5 that emailed me back.
I got one art test and they still haven't contacted me back after 4 weeks. Even calling the HR person that sent me the art test once a week hasn't gotten her to even reply. Just call me back and say "no thanks". A little common courtesy goes along way. I guess coming from the corporate world has hampered my opinions but when you apply for a job it's usually common courtesy to let the applicant know they didn't get the position or it's been filled.
He has some good points but is definitely off the mark on many of them the only person you can blame on not getting the job is yourself.
Portfolio is king. You can spend the time you spent in school and do tutorials and be better then you can just doing your assignments, the assignments are just there to get you in the program if you only touch max,maya, zbrush for your assignments in school you'll never be comfortable in the apps to get down and dirty enough to create a decent portfolio. I'm not saying school is bad I got my BFA in Computer Animation and am a generalist by the generic term but that also means I'm not a master of anything. So, there ya have it I need more time in the modeling box.
I'm still learning and I still haven't been able to get a job yet and I don't think mines too bad... O_o Maybe I should write an article.
LMFAO....Please someone punch this poor bastard in the face and point hiim to the land of crybabies.
Seriously. Just because you go to a god damn school for games doesn't mean you are gonna be good enough or have the skills, eye or whatever it takes to get into our industry.
God damn... I wanted to play professional baseball. I played at the division 1 level, some semi pro in southern california but i knew in the end i wasn't going to make the cut. It happens. Move on.
I can't feel anything for this kid. I looked at his portfolio and my god that shit made my eyes bleed like I was on my last legs with Ebola.
I started reading the article, wanting to give the guy a break...
That's exactly how I started the article. I was very sympathetic at the beginning and then...yeah.
Sadly enough students believe that their work is good enough for whatever reason. And while it might be the best work they have done by their standards, if ones work isn't at industry standard by graduation, post-school life will be very frustrating.
I used to go to portfolio reviews at the local schools and, at times, it was quite disheartening. The best piece of advice I could possibly give them, albeit years too late, was that their competition was NOT the other students. Their competition are the artists that currently have the job that they want. The looks on some of the faces...well, they would have redone their school years all over again with that mentality.
All in all, I hope this guy keeps at it. I hate seeing people give up on what they truly love to do.
"Those who can, do. Those who can't, don't."
Edit: Come to think about it, he probably just ended his career in the industry before it even started.
It's true that many game development education systems are pretty much still in infantile stages I agree...
But again like all jobs I think it simply boils down to one very important thing when employers look for new hires...if you can't show what you can do for the employer there's absolutely no way to get in.
And like many have said...his portfolio clearly doesn't show any growth at all and what bugs me is that he puts Photoshop , Zbrush 3 and then the modeling package names in there as if to show that he knows all three. If he said he did it all in just max I might believe it.
*Flashback*
Mar 11, 2008 This kid posted a comment on shacknews asking for career help. He was told the following things by both gamers and professionals:
-make sure you're 100% positive you want to be in the videogame business more than anything else
-You need more practice. your best work will come from things you do in your free time and are very interested in. Your portfolio is well... lacking. If it is modeling you want to go into i suggest some higherpoly stuff baked to engine ready models, spec maps, blah blah the whole deal. Join www.polycount.com and get your asshole torn open over the next few months and you will most likely be in a much better position.
-As a creative person (artist, writer and such), your portfolio is everything. Model, texture and/or write as much as possible. Make good and varied stuff.
-etc.
It is obvious that he had no intention of doing what is necessary to get a job.
damn precious 'i went to game school' hippies - you're meant to go and learn a skillset, which then you utilise to make a semi-decent portfolio for jobs..........
I just want the industry to be aware that there are people out there with deep passion and love for this medium who simply want a chance.
I'm not going to hate on the guys work, since I'm not in the games industry either...but his logic here just fails. Being a doctor, surgeon, space engineer, etc. are all jobs that people on the outside are deeply passionate about, would love to do, and simply want a chance. Theres a reason we don't stick them in front of patients, or inside an operating room, or hand them tools and tell them to get to work on a rocket. You need to know what you're doing. You'll be given that chance if you do.
I wanted to play professional baseball. I played at the division 1 level, some semi pro in southern california but i knew in the end i wasn't going to make the cut. It happens. Move on.
So true Jesse. Dreaming about something can only get you so far. It takes hard work and dedication to really succeed in such a competitive field. But there is a point when you have to realize your own limitations.
When I saw this on Kotaku I felt sorry for him, until I looked into it a little more. I can understand how he feels though. I've been working at getting into the industry over the last three years. I still work a full-time job, have a wife, and I spend every second I can working in Max and Photoshop. Without the dedication I've had, and the support of my wife, I would have never ended up with the contract work I've had. I've been able to land several interviews lately so I know it's only a matter of time until I move into game development full-time. If someone's not willing to put in the time and dedication this field demands, then it can probably do fine without them.
Dekard: To be fair to the industry people dealing with resumes and portfolios... part of the problem is that 5 + years ago they didn't have to wade through half the shit that they get spammed with every week now by people with absolutely no perspective on what is actually considered 'acceptable quality' to even deserve a call back. Top that off with the increasing competition between good experienced artists for the same jobs compared to a few years ago and it's pretty tight. It's less about courtesy now than it is simply being able to look at all of it and respond to just the worthy candidates in a timely manner. Sadly, a lot of decent applicants probably get overlooked simply due to the competition for a single spot.
These schools that don't actually teach art and still promise you a game job are to blame. I have yet to see any good artist get passed over for a job in favor of a game school graduate or someone with prior engine experience. That shit can be taught in no time just like learning a new 3d app can. The schools are pumping out graduates with moderate to severely outdated tech skills as it is and that's not helping them at all when companies only care about their portfolio. This guy's article should have cut directly into that issue, but instead, his lack of experience and perspective probably all but black listed him as a whiny hack. Nobody wants to work with 'that' person.
Passion gets you nowhere if you don't have the skills to back it up. He's right, the industry does want passion, but only so that it can exploit it into more output in less time towards its products. I could be passionate about dentistry too, but that doesn't mean I should be given a crack at it.
The crazy thing in all of this is that a simple portfolio post for crits here on polycount probably could have set him straight long before getting to this point.
I can tell ya I would at least like someone at the game companies to call me back or shoot me an email and say "sorry, we just aren't interested at this time..." or "Your current art does not meet our standards" but out of 80 or 90 resumes sent, I only got about 5 that emailed me back.
I got one art test and they still haven't contacted me back after 4 weeks. Even calling the HR person that sent me the art test once a week hasn't gotten her to even reply. Just call me back and say "no thanks". A little common courtesy goes along way. I guess coming from the corporate world has hampered my opinions but when you apply for a job it's usually common courtesy to let the applicant know they didn't get the position or it's been filled.
It would be great to get that info, but look at it from the other side. The people who interview people have a job to do outside of interviewing people. As soon as they get done with an interview they either want to move forward with them, or they return to work and forget about them. I know the silence sucks for people, but it an answer. Saying "you didn't get the job" and giving reasons why, would be a waste of time and could get them in legal trouble. Its like expecting every person to say hi to you or hold a door open.
The part about how people with titles under their belt are "burned out" and how new studios should take the extra risk of hiring unproven, sub-par people, makes me really lose any sense of appreciation for this person's article.
By the way, hardly anyone is going to call or e-mail you with "hey , you're below our standards". Nobody wants to make enemies needlessly.
I've spoken @ a few schools now and the first thing I tell them when they ask for some advice is to throw all the work they've done from the courses they're taking and do their portfolio again.
The reason being, this is their first time doing a lot of things related to videogame art and the expectation of landing a gig fresh out of school is naive. Those in school studying to work in the industry, more specifically art or design related fields, should consider those courses tutorials in learning the tools they will then later use to make great work with.
Does anyone in the industry NOW have their first time artwork still on their website? I know I certainly do not. It's concerning that these students would put that work up, but its even more concerning that the teachers are encouraging this.
There are exceptions, as sometimes a diamond in the rough will poke its shiny face through the grains of sand. But more often than not there is much more to learn and jumping the gun early can be damaging.
I can tell ya I would at least like someone at the game companies to call me back or shoot me an email and say "sorry, we just aren't interested at this time..." or "Your current art does not meet our standards" but out of 80 or 90 resumes sent, I only got about 5 that emailed me back.
You know Dekard, I kinda expect the same thing from people that email me with questions and I spend time typing up answers, let alone asking around for info. It's not first time that I get an email from someone wanting to get into games and asking bunch of questions, and the other day I spent well over half an hour typing stuff up, even doing some searching around them interwebs, trying to be helpful, and not a single "thank you for the info" in reply. What's up with that? If there isn't a common courtesy of emailing back and saying hey, your information was crap, didn't help at all.. at least something, then I could imagine that people who are paid to interact with candidates get thrown off by the lack of simple manners and don't bother getting back to people. That what TGZ said.
Oh well.
At least this poor guy had a decently designed website (e.g. more aesthetically pleasing than most portfolio sites I keep seeing popping around on a daily basis). Maybe he should get into web design instead.
The author of this article went to a game design school, graduated, and couldn't land a job right away. Oh my gosh, this never happens to anyone. I find it insanely ironic that he'll talk up about passion this and heart that, but won't even continue to refine his skills further to then land a job. Plenty of people have to do it, he's no one different.
The only thing he proved here is he didn't want it bad enough, that simple.
Boo freaking hoo, instead of writing articles about his troubles he should work his ass off to improve instead of whining about landing a job.
The art school i went to was shit,utter shit and in the end i had to come to the cold realization that i wasnt going to get a job with the type of quality of work i had. So i had 2 choices,quit or work my ass off to get a job. And work my ass of over 5 years to finally get my foot in the door is exactly what i did. I took every non game dev 3d job i could take for experience,drove on average 2 hours through the blunt of Houstons morning traffic just to work at a job that i got to do 3d.
In those 5 years i never let go of that dream and eventually i improved enough to land that first job and these last 3 years i have been enjoying the fruits of my labor. If this guy really loved games as much as he claimed and wants to work in them as much as he says then he wouldnt be quitting the way he is.
All the 3d stuff I made in my classes was pretty crappy, but I spent time after class and at home working on mods, and doing random stuff to get as much practice/experience as I could.
The only good things I pulled out of UAT were my experiences working in teams on projects, the extra time spent in life-drawing and a knowledge of level/game design that will help me later on in my career.
Same can be said for myself. Granted, I ended up teaching myself particle fx and getting a job doing that, but all the 3d work I did outside of class in the school's game design club received soooo much more effort and devotion than my schoolwork ever did.
This is a pretty sore subject for me, because it's true schools lie and don't deliver. But what makes it worse is that this person is lazy, which makes it harder to comment on this since I have had to deal with too many students like this when I was a Teaching Assistant. They would show up to class did the minimum poorly and would complained about how the professor didn't do his/her job or worse was too hard because he/her was actually teaching them something and had expectations. They just showed up and talked and did nothing all day while in class. When you earn a degree it means you have completed a set of courses that train you to be proficient in said degree. If the person hasn't done this they shouldn't receive one. The reality however is most of the time the course work that students do have nothing to do with the kind of work an artist in the industry has to do. It's not just about modeling or texturing, it having to do it with the same kind of restrictions and expectations you would have to face if you were working at a studio. By that that I mean, having to texture an entire building with one texture, or several small textures and limited amount of polys (tris) and having to work with a grid and making it look realistic. Some schools go as far as to say once you graduated you will have completed a volume of work (your reel) that will make it possible to receive an entry level job in the industry. By the way this is kind of crap doesn't just happen with computer art degrees it happens with other programs that require you to pass a test given by the state for example. This happened to my girlfriend, she got here masters in Art Therapy, the program was approved by the state, long story short, she graduated, passed the test, then the state told her that some of the classes that she took didn't meet the criteria for her to get her LMHC. It was bullshit and it took her a few years and a lawyer to get this problem solved. Back to the art school bit... This would be true if most schools actually helped place students in internships. Why, because it would take some serious talent to not learn anything productive at a studio that is serious about their internship program. Now I don't know about the school that kid went to, maybe they do help place student in relevant internships to their degree, and the assignments reflect what is done in a game studio, but if he had done an internship in with an established company he would not have his gallery filled with the work he has. I mean how lazy would you have to be to pull that off.
As for the game industry bit goes, if you give an art test just make clear what you want and perhaps give enough details so the candidate that have not worked for companies that make triple A titles can show you what you are looking for provided they have the skills. It also helps to tailor the test to reflect what you need instead of something you don't use anymore. For example why would you send someone an art test asking them to model a trash can when you need and want people that can model and texture humans as well. There is a lot of things that get asked in art test that are specific to just the studio or studio making triple A titles. So the only way a candidate has to learn them is by working in such environment. Also just because you give details on how to make something that doesn't mean that said candidate will be able to do it well. If anything you might get surprised a few months down the road if the person really wants to work for you by developing the skills you were looking for. I think it would make the hiring process easier for both the company and the candidate and should be more than enough to determine if someone has enough potential to be an asset to the team. The reason I even bother stating this is because I have talked to recruiters that say the company is really having a hard time finding people with the right skill set and experience and that because of that they are also looking for people with potential. But after further contact it's clear that what they really want is a Senior Artist that has been in field for over five years and nothing else. I think people that value their time will be honest and say right from the start what they can and can't do. But maybe that just me and I'm insane if that is not how normal people behave.
A concrete example of such description could be what Dur32 took the time to make, a tutorial on how to unwrap things cleanly for the DS. Just because someone reads how to do something doesn't mean they will be able to do it. It's posted on the these boards and it's simple to follow. That's really what schools should be doing though and not companies. It's insane to expect companies to do it, period. If companies had a simple example of what they want done and how they want it done it would cut down on the guess work for the candidate that are trying to impress them so they can get their dream job and save the art team some time. The problem with schools is they don't provide what Dur32 offered. The same can be said for most books out there, they go into all this crap that has been said before and don't go into the specifics of making game art so the reader can develop the skills that companies are looking for. Just because an artist has good traditional art skills doesn't mean they can translate that to game art.
Damn I took so long to write this shit up there is more this thread. reading it now.
Dekard I can't cut him any slack because he doesn't want this as a career and it shows in his site. In fact I edited this post several times to try and be objective. Commercial Art in general is extremely hard to get into especially now, if you want it you have to work your ass off. If his work was at the quality of your work is I would understand. It took me took me two weeks to figure out that the school I went to wasn't going to prepare me to get a Graphic Design job, why because the Art Lab was never opened enough. To get around this issue I became one of the computer art lab monitors and nagged the art department chair to allow me to leave that art lab open until 12am every time I worked there. The first thing I told him was I didn't care if I got paid for the extra time, I got to do it for free eventually. I thought it wasn't fair that students did not have access to the lab so I did something about it.
Does it suck not to be able to get a job and that going to school was mostly a waste of money, yeah, but bitching about it doesn't make it go away, it's like paying taxes, it sucks but you have to do it. What sucks even more is having to put up with students like him that showed up to class wanting it to be an easy ride and listening to all their BS when they presented their projects, that sucks too.
Quite frankly, I found both the portfolio and the article to be immensely inspiring. So inspiring, in fact, that I just spent an hour noodling around with a brand new head model to prove to myself that I'm better than this guy.
I think its kinda sad that he was allowed to graduate producing that kind of work. I thought graduation meant you had proved yourself to be good enough, not just that you had managed to show up for 4 years
I was at games recruitment event last year and the major companies there were not taking any reels or applications from university graduates. Their faces were pretty funny but you could tell it was a real shock to them
yup what a huge whine. He obviously didn't put the effort in.
Even if the school wasn't very good, he should have been self motivated enough to make a
good go of it.
my degree course was pretty lousy, but I spent time doing my own stuff outside.
In some small ways I used to think like him about the games industry, I thought that people got base skills(simple max and PS skillz) and then they got a job and then at that job the company would give them the training and experience needed to create game quality art.
About half way through university I realised this was not true at all, people with base skills are ignored unless they improve those skills to game quality themselves. Thats when I joined polycount
I agree that university does not teach the necessary skills and I agree that it should give people the skills they need and not exaggerate about the quality of the work shown.
I really don't have as much of a problem with this guy's article as many of the people here.
Expecting a degree level course of education to provide you with the skills to get into the relevant industry isn't too much to ask in my opinion. I don't have any insight into the course that he attended but I know from personal experience that game art courses- as they are still in there infancy aren't all the most well rounded education experiences and often leave students with a less than ideal outlook on the industry. Alot of fresh faced young students coming out of that sort of environment will only have there tutor's words to go on about the big bad game/ film industry and what is expected of them.
The guy even goes on to say that he knows his portfolio is not up to scratch and he is seeking an alternative career - I don't see that as bad, I see it as someone making an intelligent choice about what they want out of life. I know I came out of uni with nothing like the skilllset that was needed from an industry job, and it took a long time of working on my portfolio to get my first gig and even more hard work to get to where I am now. A degree and relevant qualifications in law qualifies you to be a lawyer- the same in medicine and other fields- it's not too much to ask that by taking a game-art course you should want to be taught the skills to take that first step into the industry.
Joining the Dominance War has taught me more than 3 years of school.
After reading the article it becomes pretty obvious that he's one of those 'Oh noes I cant do it, please HALP!'-people that didnt even take time to TRY something themselves. His portfolio was made by his brother, he had to ask help from his roommate for a lot of models he made, can this guy do anything on it's own? So he is saying that the level at school is too low, but he needs to ask for help to complete the assignments, whats that about?
I think there is a difference between people who have great ideas and concepts, but aren't able to work them out very well and people who model tables, but aren't able to work them out very well.
If you ask me i think most to all of those game college/universities are vehicles for the casual games (read: zillions of bad derby racers, zumas, diner dashes and bejeweleds) market anyway
Although I'm not a cg student this is of my interest. I am currently writing my Ms thesis in mechanical engineering. More than often the feeling of insufficient knowledge overwhelms me. Sometimes you need to let your thoughts on "talent and geniality" just go and start working your ass off.
Guess it differs quite much to be a mechanical engineer than being a game dev. But you still need to work hard no matter what... and believe me when I say it... fluid dynamics isn't something you read when taking a crap.
fucking looser , altho , in the school were i am at ( where i go like once in a month ) its full of people like that, that make some boxy people in the T pose and slap a noise texture done, they are ready to work at ilm, the other day i tried to tell a retard that if his website takes 19 seconds to load it would be enough for anyone to throw it away , the conversation ended with him telling me "what the fuck you know about it ? the professor knows his shit and told me to do it like this ,." obviously i didnt even bother.
But yeah schools are 90% shitty, and from those shitty 99% of people that come out are below mediocre prop artists.
I think the real problem is the average person's misconception about doing art on a computer. Show Joe Sixpac (who can barely draw a stick figure) Michelangelo's David, and they probably think to themselves, "holy shit, I could never do something like that... it's just beyond my ability. I could study and train and practice for half a century and still not have enough skill to sculpt a marble counter top." But show the same Joe Sixpac something like Gears of War, and they're more likely to think, "that's all done on computers. I could probably learn to do that, I use a computer like every day!"
I didn't compare them at all, I just gave two examples. My point was: with traditional art, people are more apt to recognize that there's more to it than just the technical side of learning the tools and techniques... there are underlying artistic principles. With digital art (CG, video games, whatever) people generally think, "It's a skill... like learning MS Word, but probably a bit harder."
well i got suckered into going into a game design program, I agree with the chump that the schools don't teach what you need to get in the industry. But thats when you have to make the intelligent choice to get more involved with the online community and do work other than the crap hw schools give you.
My freshman year I had around 60 other peers with most of them having the same attitude as this chump. By the time I got hired at my first job there was only 4 of us left. We all have jobs. I joined PC my freshman year and always blasted that if ppl wanted free education or a real crit to post here. Seriously like 4 ppl out of a couple hundred have done so... a few of them got a new asshole and never came back.
I always argued with my instructors about how the work they're giving us is ghay. I never did my hw because of that. I think too many students like this guy don't have th balls to question authority or demand quality service. If I or others would have just sat on our asses and been spoon fed crap from school, I'd be one of those whiney bitches without a job wishing someone would give me the chance to be passionate.
I learned normal mapping from ben mathis and learned how to properly project normals from jordan walker and his txvinewall file he uploaded a few year ago. Even after showing that stuff and introducing the nvidia filter, crazybump, xnormal to my instructors they still felt what they were teaching was better. They said those were incorrect methods or tools. :poly101: they came around eventually..
Simple thing about my rant is that the game schools are breeding a bunch of whiney bitches that have no idea how the industry works. I would know since i was in the thick of it. Part to blame on them, part to blame on the lazy out of dated teachers who just want a paycheck better than what they would be making as prop artist.
Replies
I think he needs a new website / should become a writer if thats what he wants to do.
The only good things I pulled out of UAT were my experiences working in teams on projects, the extra time spent in life-drawing and a knowledge of level/game design that will help me later on in my career.
Any of you other UATer's have thoughts on this?
Although since UAT was more of a technical college than a place to sharpen artist skills, having gone into the school with prior art schooling/crit experience made it easier to move forward and into a job than it appears this guy had.
Sounds more like the cause of overtime, crunch, missed deadlines, poor quality games, poor sales, less stability, small startups going under, and more of the same. No thanks. I'd rather not see that "piggy bank" model in any game I purchase.
although I'm impressed that he zbrushed the sink... and I have no clue what he actually did in zbrush with it. That takes skillzzz.
I still remember when i thought that you could go to school then get a job designing games. I had no idea that the title of designer was one that you only get with time in the industry. Even more so that to make games it meant you had to work... This guys stuff reminds me of 98% of the people in the art side of my graduating class from UAT. Work that in class would get them an A+ (very lax grading) so believed that this care for production quality was good enough to warrant a job. I had a few roommates that posted on PC even, but started so too late because they were showing off their "finished" portfolios for praise. Only to find out that what they were calling hot shit was just shit.
The schools don't care about the students they care about getting paid. They give kids some false hope that they have what it takes to make games only to find out that they still need years of hard work until they would be ready. I don't get it how so many can truthfully believe that when they look at their work that they should be getting paid for it. No one tells them to think from the other side so they don't they just get pissed off and blog like this guy.
But this moron decides to "harangue" the game industry. One which he knows nothing about and will probably never work in after that god awful article. Some of his sentiments are correct (much of the shortcomings of the education system) but his feelings about the industry are laughable and naive. What a blown opportunity. And students after him will continue to experience the same thing, thanks for helping nothing and destroying any career you may have had at the same time!
I should end the post there but I just find the rationale of his argument so absurd. "I really want to work in the industry! But my portfolio stinks." guy should be taken over the "I really want to work in the industry so I worked extra hard on my portfolio" guy (or girl). And apparently slacker A is the hope and future of the game industry rather than achiever B, who will 'burn out' (I assume burning out is the inevitable consequence of working, in the author's opinion). Yeesh.
the worst part is how much time he spent on most of those pieces...
Is this guy kidding? Yes, please, give a phone interview to every jackoff who doesn't have the skill to land a job but is "passionate". That's not a waste of time or money...
How can you look at that...and then look at any recent game and think "yeah, I'm good enough"?
He needs to go to art school, screw game dev technical school.
I started reading the article, wanting to give the guy a break...I mean...I've been into game art & 3d for a looooong time and I dont have an industry job yet either (I've never applied at a single place, though...so that might be why).
But this guy...his arguments are logically false. Pretty silly. I wonder if more talented, rational & patient friends of his are going to explain to him the error of his ways.
Edit: Oh yeah, I work at Best Buy too, I bet he doesn't have to deal with that type of job all day, but I am doing what I need to in order to get by and strive for a full time gig.
I can tell ya I would at least like someone at the game companies to call me back or shoot me an email and say "sorry, we just aren't interested at this time..." or "Your current art does not meet our standards" but out of 80 or 90 resumes sent, I only got about 5 that emailed me back.
I got one art test and they still haven't contacted me back after 4 weeks. Even calling the HR person that sent me the art test once a week hasn't gotten her to even reply. Just call me back and say "no thanks". A little common courtesy goes along way. I guess coming from the corporate world has hampered my opinions but when you apply for a job it's usually common courtesy to let the applicant know they didn't get the position or it's been filled.
He has some good points but is definitely off the mark on many of them the only person you can blame on not getting the job is yourself.
Portfolio is king. You can spend the time you spent in school and do tutorials and be better then you can just doing your assignments, the assignments are just there to get you in the program if you only touch max,maya, zbrush for your assignments in school you'll never be comfortable in the apps to get down and dirty enough to create a decent portfolio. I'm not saying school is bad I got my BFA in Computer Animation and am a generalist by the generic term but that also means I'm not a master of anything.
I'm still learning and I still haven't been able to get a job yet
Seriously. Just because you go to a god damn school for games doesn't mean you are gonna be good enough or have the skills, eye or whatever it takes to get into our industry.
God damn... I wanted to play professional baseball. I played at the division 1 level, some semi pro in southern california but i knew in the end i wasn't going to make the cut. It happens. Move on.
I can't feel anything for this kid. I looked at his portfolio and my god that shit made my eyes bleed like I was on my last legs with Ebola.
That's exactly how I started the article. I was very sympathetic at the beginning and then...yeah.
Sadly enough students believe that their work is good enough for whatever reason. And while it might be the best work they have done by their standards, if ones work isn't at industry standard by graduation, post-school life will be very frustrating.
I used to go to portfolio reviews at the local schools and, at times, it was quite disheartening. The best piece of advice I could possibly give them, albeit years too late, was that their competition was NOT the other students. Their competition are the artists that currently have the job that they want. The looks on some of the faces...well, they would have redone their school years all over again with that mentality.
All in all, I hope this guy keeps at it. I hate seeing people give up on what they truly love to do.
"Those who can, do. Those who can't, don't."
Edit: Come to think about it, he probably just ended his career in the industry before it even started.
But again like all jobs I think it simply boils down to one very important thing when employers look for new hires...if you can't show what you can do for the employer there's absolutely no way to get in.
And like many have said...his portfolio clearly doesn't show any growth at all and what bugs me is that he puts Photoshop , Zbrush 3 and then the modeling package names in there as if to show that he knows all three. If he said he did it all in just max I might believe it.
Clearly he's pissing on his own feet.
Mar 11, 2008 This kid posted a comment on shacknews asking for career help. He was told the following things by both gamers and professionals:
-make sure you're 100% positive you want to be in the videogame business more than anything else
-You need more practice. your best work will come from things you do in your free time and are very interested in. Your portfolio is well... lacking. If it is modeling you want to go into i suggest some higherpoly stuff baked to engine ready models, spec maps, blah blah the whole deal. Join www.polycount.com and get your asshole torn open over the next few months and you will most likely be in a much better position.
-As a creative person (artist, writer and such), your portfolio is everything. Model, texture and/or write as much as possible. Make good and varied stuff.
-etc.
It is obvious that he had no intention of doing what is necessary to get a job.
link:
http://www.shacknews.com/laryn.x?id=16457855#itemanchor_16457855
then again pliang - he might have tinea
I'm not going to hate on the guys work, since I'm not in the games industry either...but his logic here just fails. Being a doctor, surgeon, space engineer, etc. are all jobs that people on the outside are deeply passionate about, would love to do, and simply want a chance. Theres a reason we don't stick them in front of patients, or inside an operating room, or hand them tools and tell them to get to work on a rocket. You need to know what you're doing. You'll be given that chance if you do.
So true Jesse. Dreaming about something can only get you so far. It takes hard work and dedication to really succeed in such a competitive field. But there is a point when you have to realize your own limitations.
When I saw this on Kotaku I felt sorry for him, until I looked into it a little more. I can understand how he feels though. I've been working at getting into the industry over the last three years. I still work a full-time job, have a wife, and I spend every second I can working in Max and Photoshop. Without the dedication I've had, and the support of my wife, I would have never ended up with the contract work I've had. I've been able to land several interviews lately so I know it's only a matter of time until I move into game development full-time. If someone's not willing to put in the time and dedication this field demands, then it can probably do fine without them.
These schools that don't actually teach art and still promise you a game job are to blame. I have yet to see any good artist get passed over for a job in favor of a game school graduate or someone with prior engine experience. That shit can be taught in no time just like learning a new 3d app can. The schools are pumping out graduates with moderate to severely outdated tech skills as it is and that's not helping them at all when companies only care about their portfolio. This guy's article should have cut directly into that issue, but instead, his lack of experience and perspective probably all but black listed him as a whiny hack. Nobody wants to work with 'that' person.
Passion gets you nowhere if you don't have the skills to back it up. He's right, the industry does want passion, but only so that it can exploit it into more output in less time towards its products. I could be passionate about dentistry too, but that doesn't mean I should be given a crack at it.
The crazy thing in all of this is that a simple portfolio post for crits here on polycount probably could have set him straight long before getting to this point.
It would be great to get that info, but look at it from the other side. The people who interview people have a job to do outside of interviewing people. As soon as they get done with an interview they either want to move forward with them, or they return to work and forget about them. I know the silence sucks for people, but it an answer. Saying "you didn't get the job" and giving reasons why, would be a waste of time and could get them in legal trouble. Its like expecting every person to say hi to you or hold a door open.
By the way, hardly anyone is going to call or e-mail you with "hey , you're below our standards". Nobody wants to make enemies needlessly.
The reason being, this is their first time doing a lot of things related to videogame art and the expectation of landing a gig fresh out of school is naive. Those in school studying to work in the industry, more specifically art or design related fields, should consider those courses tutorials in learning the tools they will then later use to make great work with.
Does anyone in the industry NOW have their first time artwork still on their website? I know I certainly do not. It's concerning that these students would put that work up, but its even more concerning that the teachers are encouraging this.
There are exceptions, as sometimes a diamond in the rough will poke its shiny face through the grains of sand. But more often than not there is much more to learn and jumping the gun early can be damaging.
You know Dekard, I kinda expect the same thing from people that email me with questions and I spend time typing up answers, let alone asking around for info. It's not first time that I get an email from someone wanting to get into games and asking bunch of questions, and the other day I spent well over half an hour typing stuff up, even doing some searching around them interwebs, trying to be helpful, and not a single "thank you for the info" in reply. What's up with that? If there isn't a common courtesy of emailing back and saying hey, your information was crap, didn't help at all.. at least something, then I could imagine that people who are paid to interact with candidates get thrown off by the lack of simple manners and don't bother getting back to people. That what TGZ said.
Oh well.
At least this poor guy had a decently designed website (e.g. more aesthetically pleasing than most portfolio sites I keep seeing popping around on a daily basis). Maybe he should get into web design instead.
The only thing he proved here is he didn't want it bad enough, that simple.
The art school i went to was shit,utter shit and in the end i had to come to the cold realization that i wasnt going to get a job with the type of quality of work i had. So i had 2 choices,quit or work my ass off to get a job. And work my ass of over 5 years to finally get my foot in the door is exactly what i did. I took every non game dev 3d job i could take for experience,drove on average 2 hours through the blunt of Houstons morning traffic just to work at a job that i got to do 3d.
In those 5 years i never let go of that dream and eventually i improved enough to land that first job and these last 3 years i have been enjoying the fruits of my labor. If this guy really loved games as much as he claimed and wants to work in them as much as he says then he wouldnt be quitting the way he is.
Same can be said for myself. Granted, I ended up teaching myself particle fx and getting a job doing that, but all the 3d work I did outside of class in the school's game design club received soooo much more effort and devotion than my schoolwork ever did.
As for the game industry bit goes, if you give an art test just make clear what you want and perhaps give enough details so the candidate that have not worked for companies that make triple A titles can show you what you are looking for provided they have the skills. It also helps to tailor the test to reflect what you need instead of something you don't use anymore. For example why would you send someone an art test asking them to model a trash can when you need and want people that can model and texture humans as well. There is a lot of things that get asked in art test that are specific to just the studio or studio making triple A titles. So the only way a candidate has to learn them is by working in such environment. Also just because you give details on how to make something that doesn't mean that said candidate will be able to do it well. If anything you might get surprised a few months down the road if the person really wants to work for you by developing the skills you were looking for. I think it would make the hiring process easier for both the company and the candidate and should be more than enough to determine if someone has enough potential to be an asset to the team. The reason I even bother stating this is because I have talked to recruiters that say the company is really having a hard time finding people with the right skill set and experience and that because of that they are also looking for people with potential. But after further contact it's clear that what they really want is a Senior Artist that has been in field for over five years and nothing else. I think people that value their time will be honest and say right from the start what they can and can't do. But maybe that just me and I'm insane if that is not how normal people behave.
A concrete example of such description could be what Dur32 took the time to make, a tutorial on how to unwrap things cleanly for the DS. Just because someone reads how to do something doesn't mean they will be able to do it. It's posted on the these boards and it's simple to follow. That's really what schools should be doing though and not companies. It's insane to expect companies to do it, period. If companies had a simple example of what they want done and how they want it done it would cut down on the guess work for the candidate that are trying to impress them so they can get their dream job and save the art team some time. The problem with schools is they don't provide what Dur32 offered. The same can be said for most books out there, they go into all this crap that has been said before and don't go into the specifics of making game art so the reader can develop the skills that companies are looking for. Just because an artist has good traditional art skills doesn't mean they can translate that to game art.
That's my two cents.
Dur32 tutorial
Damn I took so long to write this shit up there is more this thread. reading it now.
Dekard I can't cut him any slack because he doesn't want this as a career and it shows in his site. In fact I edited this post several times to try and be objective. Commercial Art in general is extremely hard to get into especially now, if you want it you have to work your ass off. If his work was at the quality of your work is I would understand. It took me took me two weeks to figure out that the school I went to wasn't going to prepare me to get a Graphic Design job, why because the Art Lab was never opened enough. To get around this issue I became one of the computer art lab monitors and nagged the art department chair to allow me to leave that art lab open until 12am every time I worked there. The first thing I told him was I didn't care if I got paid for the extra time, I got to do it for free eventually. I thought it wasn't fair that students did not have access to the lab so I did something about it.
Does it suck not to be able to get a job and that going to school was mostly a waste of money, yeah, but bitching about it doesn't make it go away, it's like paying taxes, it sucks but you have to do it. What sucks even more is having to put up with students like him that showed up to class wanting it to be an easy ride and listening to all their BS when they presented their projects, that sucks too.
Alex
I was at games recruitment event last year and the major companies there were not taking any reels or applications from university graduates. Their faces were pretty funny but you could tell it was a real shock to them
Even if the school wasn't very good, he should have been self motivated enough to make a
good go of it.
my degree course was pretty lousy, but I spent time doing my own stuff outside.
About half way through university I realised this was not true at all, people with base skills are ignored unless they improve those skills to game quality themselves. Thats when I joined polycount
I agree that university does not teach the necessary skills and I agree that it should give people the skills they need and not exaggerate about the quality of the work shown.
Expecting a degree level course of education to provide you with the skills to get into the relevant industry isn't too much to ask in my opinion. I don't have any insight into the course that he attended but I know from personal experience that game art courses- as they are still in there infancy aren't all the most well rounded education experiences and often leave students with a less than ideal outlook on the industry. Alot of fresh faced young students coming out of that sort of environment will only have there tutor's words to go on about the big bad game/ film industry and what is expected of them.
The guy even goes on to say that he knows his portfolio is not up to scratch and he is seeking an alternative career - I don't see that as bad, I see it as someone making an intelligent choice about what they want out of life. I know I came out of uni with nothing like the skilllset that was needed from an industry job, and it took a long time of working on my portfolio to get my first gig and even more hard work to get to where I am now. A degree and relevant qualifications in law qualifies you to be a lawyer- the same in medicine and other fields- it's not too much to ask that by taking a game-art course you should want to be taught the skills to take that first step into the industry.
After reading the article it becomes pretty obvious that he's one of those 'Oh noes I cant do it, please HALP!'-people that didnt even take time to TRY something themselves. His portfolio was made by his brother, he had to ask help from his roommate for a lot of models he made, can this guy do anything on it's own? So he is saying that the level at school is too low, but he needs to ask for help to complete the assignments, whats that about?
I think there is a difference between people who have great ideas and concepts, but aren't able to work them out very well and people who model tables, but aren't able to work them out very well.
Guess it differs quite much to be a mechanical engineer than being a game dev. But you still need to work hard no matter what... and believe me when I say it... fluid dynamics isn't something you read when taking a crap.
But yeah schools are 90% shitty, and from those shitty 99% of people that come out are below mediocre prop artists.
but fair point on the notion people get that computers make things easier, the do (well not all the time) if you use them right
My freshman year I had around 60 other peers with most of them having the same attitude as this chump. By the time I got hired at my first job there was only 4 of us left. We all have jobs. I joined PC my freshman year and always blasted that if ppl wanted free education or a real crit to post here. Seriously like 4 ppl out of a couple hundred have done so... a few of them got a new asshole and never came back.
I always argued with my instructors about how the work they're giving us is ghay. I never did my hw because of that. I think too many students like this guy don't have th balls to question authority or demand quality service. If I or others would have just sat on our asses and been spoon fed crap from school, I'd be one of those whiney bitches without a job wishing someone would give me the chance to be passionate.
I learned normal mapping from ben mathis and learned how to properly project normals from jordan walker and his txvinewall file he uploaded a few year ago. Even after showing that stuff and introducing the nvidia filter, crazybump, xnormal to my instructors they still felt what they were teaching was better. They said those were incorrect methods or tools. :poly101: they came around eventually..
Simple thing about my rant is that the game schools are breeding a bunch of whiney bitches that have no idea how the industry works. I would know since i was in the thick of it. Part to blame on them, part to blame on the lazy out of dated teachers who just want a paycheck better than what they would be making as prop artist.