I remember on my second year at the University of Teesside, our programme director (games related shit) told us in a lecture "Out of the 150 of you, only 3 will get to work in AAA titles, and the rest will work in mobile phone games and if that".
I'm pretty sure at this guy's university no-one actually told him that he'll definitely land a job just for attending his classes.
There's not much to say here, the guy reminds me of a classmate of mine who was so fucking high all the time, he was under the impression he was the worlds best animator. Complete detachment from reality, this guy must be a similar case, although he does say "his portfolio isn't the greatest".
Well no shit it ain't the greatest motherfucker, it looks like the shit you create before entering a university while playing with max 2.5 that you downloaded 8 years ago and didn't even bother reading tutorials.
Anyway, the guy might be looking for a position as writer somewhere, so if that's the case and he only wrote this article to add to his article-writing portfolio, I applaud him. I really hope that's the reason he wrote that article.
Somebody really needs to write a follow-up article to straighten out the people who actually believe his *"I tried but they never gave me a chance" bullshit.
I attended with him...
"I went to school with him... and was his roommate.
I must say that like all education, it is what you take out of it. With the need for a kick ass portfolio, it should never include in-class work. Those are just assignments to teach you the skills to make something better.
I can't tell you how many of my peers still show chess sets in there modeling reels... It is the first assignment from a beginning 3DSMAX class.
As far as jobs in the industry, he did not mention that he did not want to leave the area he is at. That area has only 6 studios, non of which are hiring anything but concept artists and programmers. As he is neither, it does not apply to him.
A few other companies he applied at were for writing, which arguably he is better at than other tasks, but not what his education was for. Possibly he should of switched long ago...
He has a sour attitude towards his education here since he arrived, sabotaging himself with his game focused education.
As for Guild Hall, he was not accepted and never went. That is a Masters program and he is referring to a Undergraduate program in contrast.
Lastly with all the other comments he made on the industry and such, I must add -
He is a novice, he never did any study into women in the industry, education in the industry, or anything else he talks about.
This is a self taught industry even to this day. It takes drive and focus. What more it takes a understand that you need to improve, and that you need to work as hard and harder as the next guy to make a effort.
I attend every GDC that I can just to build connections for when I ask for a job. I spend months making games, because I enjoy it. If my stuff sucks, I redo it. This is a tenancy that he never found.
I myself might be to blame, a large portion of the time I had arguments with the other roommates that wanted to see him model, not his strong suite. The whole time he should of been focusing on writing."
Saw this posted on their forums in reply to his op ed,supposedly from his roomate
Quote:
Originally Posted by CKeene
Something can be said for not being found in the search query "Does [school] suck".
There is a frighteningly large amount of negative press circulating about trade schools that people are absorbing and using in their vehement need to discredit x school. Yes, there are a lot of bogus programs out there. No, you certainly don't need to attend a games-specific program to get in the industry.
Like I said on another post, I attend the same school and was his roommate. It is not a trade school like he says, it is fully accredited and supports many disciplines.
The school was not bad, he merely sabotaged himself, and did not put any effort into the work.
When working on a group, he left early every night so he could sleep, or so he would not miss his TV shows, which were reruns.
He did not put the effort forth to enable his own portfolio. They teach never to use what you made in class, that the classes are a teaching tool. To many don't listen and put the 3DSMax 101 Chess set into there portfolio still.
You are suppose to work on a completed game project before graduation, he waited to the last semester.
He did not want to leave AZ so he did not look past this state when applying.
He hurt himself, and is a poor reflection of what the school is. While he did not finish with a kick ass portfolio, he meet the bar minimum standards that the school can not withhold his degree, he did pay for it right.
But a degree has little to no bearing on a job in this industry.
His mistake is in thinking a degree will get him a job when he does not have the talent himself.
If its true it would make sense,i went to school with alot of guys with lax attitudes like this.
This site should pull this article, or at least offer a rebuttal.
It's crap like this that continues the cycle of laziness. Boo Hoo getting a job is tough...well guess what dude you think it was easy for the rest of us? I bet more than half of us could write a book on our journeys getting into the game industry.
I could go on and on...but alas i need to work!
Glad to see his roommate posting a second opinion.
B
Oh and just for clarification, I'm in no way defending his laziness. He could spend a couple weeks on just doing the tutorials on 'pick any website' and his portfolio would look 10x better.
He needs more time behind the wheel of the application. Shit, I was given an art test for TR and had to learn max from the get go and learned max from scratch and almost finished the art test but I sent it in letting them know I knew maya and picked up max in a week. I could have done the building in Maya but went ahead and learned max for 5or 6 days and modelled the building for 1-2. Now I feel pretty comfortable in Max and previously I just hadn't used it.
He just needs to get elbow deep into the applications and start posting stuff and learning from his mistakes. PC and IRC PC has helped me tremendously, and I told everyone while I was going to school to post here and none have, and my stuff is hanging all over the walls at schools and when I see it now I cringe and how noobtacular it is.
Maybe he's not pressing it right... Last time I checked you didn't need schooling to learn how to press a button.
On a serious note, its too much of a whine. I can't believe that anyone would expect to get anywhere without doing the required work. "what do you mean I suck, I paid my money what for you not pour knowledge and experienced in mine head?"
The parts that complain about burn out are pure imagination. Only the horribly mismanaged places work their people to the breaking point. Which are exactly the types of places he would get hired at. He wouldn't solve burn out, he would contribute to it by working at a place no one else would.
I admire the attitude of "doing anything it takes to get in". But how about doing what is required?
What scares me is his few lines about working cheaper. Son of a bitch. You want my job, take it, but take it because you can do it better, not because you can do it cheaper. You hurt not only yourself but everyone else trying to get a foot in the door.
Vig I was wondering when you would post, to be honest I missed the part where he said he would work for less. His work pissed me off, and the fact that he wrote the article saying he wasn't getting a freaking call was even worse. The only thing that went through my mind was if you bothered to do some work you would get at least an art test.
I have recently been thinking about these issues, as I have friends whom are currently trying to graduate, and I have about a year to a year and half left of school.
I think that what a lot of us need to realize is that in college we basically have 3 years to make a product out of ourselves. Our homework is only there as a learning device, but really shouldn't be in a portfolio. It's not high school anymore, and just "doing the work" isn't going to be up to standards; We can't wait until Portfolio time rolls around to start either.
(this is off subject but hear me out)
My problem is that I'm still really unsure about what I want to do! I enjoy modeling, animating, and most of all drawing. It's time to pick a specific to focus on, but it's really hard for me. I know that I need to make up my mind now, but how do you know for sure? All I know is that I love drawing, but I have a feeling that it's easier to love drawing, because I've already spent my whole life practicing and improving. Modeling and animating are scary because it's a whole new "something" to learn. But I'm willing to take the effort to do so, it's just.... which one?
I'm not familiar with UAT or it's students, but it sounds alot like my university: students with unrealistic expectations and mediocre to subpar portfolios, lax grading, and a 'send-em-on-through" attitude of the faculty. I think it would be safe to assume there are a lot of people in a lot of fields with the same mentality as the article writer with just as a good chance of getting a job. Sad but true.
My univeristy (University of Southern Miss) had probably 70-80% students who thought that doing the bare minimum would get them a job. It's simply not the case in any field. I know 3 students from my graduating class who work at the mall, right now.
I do agree it is individual effort that will make it all ok in the end... but at what point can we start looking to the education those students are receiving? Clearly, by his portfolio the people who were giving instruction have no care or concern that someone was paying to be taught.
Granted, its impossible to tell by just looking at work, but if i were that guy's prof i'd be damn sure that he'd be doing 100x more than what was there to try to improve, not to just churn and burn formula models.
I kinda feel sorry for this guy, since he's obviously hasn't been directed to what the game dev industry is looking for at the moment. His work would of been great for the ps1 generation but sadly not for the 360 generation.
If i was him, I'd delete all that work, pickup some tutorials and make new portfolio pieces that actually look like they were made in zbrush.
I found that towards the end my university projects were actually getting in the way of me studying and making a better portfolio, it actually made me laugh. I started working a little less on university work(design for interactive media) and a bit more on my own game related art. So I still pass but they arent even marking the stuff that matters.
I found that towards the end my university projects were actually getting in the way of me studying and making a better portfolio, it actually made me laugh.
Exactly, hence why I haven't really had time to work on anything. I've just graduated with a Masters Degree, but my reel that was supposed to be modeling focused, I cannot use, simply because what they wanted me to turn in as a finished product was entirely different than what the industry accepts and sees as standard. Turntables? Nope. Renders showing proper edgeloop topology and meshflow? Not there either. Almost a one minute animated short movie with storyline, where I had to take care of everything from particle fx to sound myself, and do a complete write-up of the reseach behind said project, with storyboards, animatics, etc.?...yes. :poly107:
We should put all of those comments on that guy's over exposed article...it will certainly make him think twice about the lack of thought he had writing it...
I found that towards the end my university projects were actually getting in the way of me studying and making a better portfolio, it actually made me laugh. I started working a little less on university work(design for interactive media) and a bit more on my own game related art. So I still pass but they arent even marking the stuff that matters.
Sadly I have to agree. Towards the end of this year I couldn`t wait to finish all the uni assignments (effects (wtf?), animation) so I can work on stuff that actually matters (building a portfolio). I still gave it my best shot and even enjoyed it but couldn`t shake the feeling that all this work was for nothing. SUre I may get a few extra % but will I be hired because I produced some awesome (??? :>)spacemonsterfight-scene for uni? I think not.
While this guy's article is fairly unnecessary, he appears to have the wrong end of the stick - it's not the industry's fault, it's the educators fault. As many others here have said.
I got a low B grade for my online portfolio at University. It was graded by a woman who couldn't tell you the difference between a polygon and a pixel... I even had included several appraisals from industry veterans in well-known companies to back up my work, but I guess she ignored them or didn't understand them.
It turned out that people who handed in websites for the same course, which were 100% Flash animated, poorly put together and lacking content, got A-grades for that stuff.
Guess who got a job...
There are far too many universities springing open new courses with only half a clue of what to actually teach or how to teach in them. The majority of the UK university "games industry" related courses have only sprung up in the last 5 years or so, and are basically just catch-all courses for spitting out jack-of-all-trades students who can do mediocre work in a few digital media.
The universities need to improve before students will get any actual work-related information or tuition out of them. Pretty much every technical thing available at my university, I already knew before going in.
It doesn't help that a lot of students seem to think that the course will hand them their desired career on a platter... they don't seem to realise that you actually have to work towards your goals, spend some time outside of school researching and practising your craft.
It doesn't help that a lot of students seem to think that the course will hand them their desired career on a platter...
Seems like the attitude of most students (non games industry related) that I've met here in the UK anyway, so I'm not surprised that they get ripped off and can't pay back their loans.
Exactly, hence why I haven't really had time to work on anything. I've just graduated with a Masters Degree, but my reel that was supposed to be modeling focused, I cannot use, simply because what they wanted me to turn in as a finished product was entirely different than what the industry accepts and sees as standard. Turntables? Nope. Renders showing proper edgeloop topology and meshflow? Not there either. Almost a one minute animated short movie with storyline, where I had to take care of everything from particle fx to sound myself, and do a complete write-up of the reseach behind said project, with storyboards, animatics, etc.?...yes. :poly107:
lol , are you sure you didn`t go to my school? EXACTLY the same story here.
that said, it never really bothered me much. I never had the illusion that uni assignments alone get me far. 99% of what I know comes from reading tutorials, forums and researching industry workflows - I dont think many of my tutors ever heard of occlusion maps or xnormal or crazybump or proper edgeflow and the list could go on :poly133:
my ars poetica is what you do in your free time outside uni is what really matters
Ged that's is exactly why I have not gone back to school to get a Masters or just transfer back and get another BA, because these freaking professors want to train the students to be art directors and not freaking game artists. They want you to be able to write, now I write shit up all the time, but if I wanted to be a writer I would have gone for that instead of an an art degree. The last school I went to look at their program to see if they had anything useful for writing, the program had a bunch of programming classes, okay I can find that useful, 3 to 5 art classes at the time, and a few writing classes. The animation instructor was a flash guru, web designer type with a masters. Nope not worth the money, been there done that. There is a huge difference in skill set needed to excel in say a place like Pixar and a job as a game artist. In fact sometimes the needs are totally opposite. Now I like being a generalist, as in knowing how to animate, texture and model but the problem is every task is a job in itself especially in larger studios and to get a freaking job you have to be great at it. So the damn professors want a 3 min or more cg film for it to be considered work and if you refuse to provide that they think you are a lazy prick. So if you just want to get good at doing environments you can't, work on characters only hell no don't be lazy. I can't even imagine how they would react if the you but I want to be an fx artists. I can see it now. You need a story to go with that CG work stop sucking. My friend was a lot more practical than me, just said the hell with it, didn't spend much time on the school work, hell he would leave class because it was a waste of his time and couldn't stand it half the time. He just left and worked on his own stuff and got a job. Eventually especially in my final year I did the same. My professors would be pissed because I didn't go to presentations, but I told them I'm not going to waste my looking at crap that looks like primitives for three hours and listen to bs on how great those primitives were, I have better things to do with my time and my money.
The guy that got an A in the 3d class could barely get a job at kinkos when he went to get a real job. I barely got a B I got into fight with the professors too much, the fact that I knew they were wasting my time and money didn't go over to well. Damn you Alex for not kissing our behinds, you have to lick our arse for the A, no licking you take your B and die.
i have to say, as a student myself. I'm really upset by this guys attitude. since when, in any lot of life, is the training ever the be all answer to getting a job. i know that what i do in school won't get me a job. It's here to give me practice and teach me the skill set, it's up to me to put forth the effort and take the next step. I need to build my portfolio with the best work i can produce, not my earliest. "your best work now, in 2 months... should be your worst." keep working, keep learning, keep improving. not to mention, considering this industry is such a small community, he def just shot himself in the foot if he ever wanted a job in gaming.
I just finished a Foundation Degree in Games Design myself and found my course lacking. This was due to the college tutor really. He had no clue on normal mapping, any level of texturing and anything game related. And he was head of year!
So I took the time to look into each game I've been playing and see if I can understand how things are built and put across to us players. And of course I've looked at peoples work here, which is some of the best when putting across ideas and the process behind each piece.
This guy can go on its educations fault, but as individual artists I feel its about how we handle that gap and over come it.
lol , are you sure you didn`t go to my school? EXACTLY the same story here.
that said, it never really bothered me much. I never had the illusion that uni assignments alone get me far. 99% of what I know comes from reading tutorials, forums and researching industry workflows - I dont think many of my tutors ever heard of occlusion maps or xnormal or crazybump or proper edgeflow and the list could go on :poly133:
my ars poetica is what you do in your free time outside uni is what really matters
The reason for my frustration with this is that its outside the instructor's hands really. Even if the instructors know what they're talking about (a lot of mine did, they were all professionals actually in the industry with experience for what they were teaching), the University as an entity may expect something entirely different from its students in order to award them a degree. Generalization is another problem with the University system. Specialization sometimes is good, especially if the student wants to specialize in something, instead of being a jack-of-all trades, master of none... :poly105:
This guy illustrates a very good point about game dev education though. He GRADUATED! He was handed a degree in game development by an accredited university but fell so short of the bar no one in the industry wants to even talk to him. I'd be pissed too.
He should have been failing his classes from day one, and would then be forced to either step up his work or drop out. Any polycounter could have told him his work was crap, his school just kept patting him on the shoulder for 2 to 4 years and then shoved him out the door, diploma in hand.
Thats why this industry is so largely self taught still (and Polycount is entirely self taught, so don't judge so harsly). The academic side is not up to snuff and if you can't put in the effort to learn said Skillz from the internet you're basically fucked.
In more mature fields of work, say accounting, you can get your degree and trust your school to provide you with a baseline education to get you in the door and on to counting someone's beans. This guy didn't even get that.
I think the guy just needed some direction. He was at least able to find a school that taught him some basics (although for the price he paid, he could easily have learned more online). However, maybe he did not realize that it was going to take significant effort on his part, outside of the classroom. Most people, who are passionate about something, will pursue that passion in as many avenues as they can. I have a hard time understanding why he would not want to create artwork outside of his studies. Perhaps he didn't have the equipment? Maybe he didn't have anyone to tell him that it would take more than just his school portfolio. Or maybe his passion for making games was the "idea" of having his name on a game, rather than having a passion for seeing his art come to life for the enjoyment of others.
I honestly think it may be a combination of things that caused him to write this:
* The feeling of being ripped off by the promises of his university
* The actual loss of $ that was spent in the program that might have otherwise been used elsewhere to further this career endeavor (or another).
* The inability to understand why his degree doesn't mean more in this industry (which, I believe was the transition from blaming his school to blaming the industry as a whole).
I felt sorry for the guy. And before I got to reading "Part B," I really didn't think the article was too terrible. But when he got to Part B, he not only started knocking the industry for wanting to be successful (by its hiring the best and brightest it can get), but by totally giving up hope. He can't change the school and he can't change the industry's standard for excellence. As a result, he needs to focus on the one thing that IS within his power to change....the quality of his work....which will only come by hard work, perseverance, and a change in attitude.
yeah, most "game" schools are shit. they are run and operated like a business, not an actual school, and are just in it for your cash. there are exceptions to that rule, but for the most part thats pretty much a given with every one i talk to thats attended one of these.
on the flip side of that, i do understand why they have you do so much stuff that isnt related to hardcore game development. i know that here at PC were primarily focused on poly modeling to industry standards, but you have to realize that there are other kinds of games out there. the way i always looked at it the school was throwing a bit of every aspect of all kinds of gaming at you, and it was your job to find what you liked the most and run with that in your own time.
i know a couple of guys who went to school for games, all fired up about hardcore gaming, and found they really truly enjoyed doing flash, and now work in the casual games market. im sure that at least a couple people found a love for particles or animation, or lighting, or whatever that they never knew they had. that is the schools job in my eyes, to expose the students to all aspects of video games and see what they like the best. its the job of the student to take what they like best and do a whole shit ton of that in their freetime.
ON TOPIC:
that was an extraordinary bad portfolio, but a well written article bitching about the industry. perhaps what homeboy needs to do is concentrate on his writing and give up on making games.
blarg, I was one of those a-holes that went to school to try and learn and now im having to relearn every new technique possible on my own, I did my share of bitching but I also did my share of doing something about it asside write lengthy articles (I just wrote short paragraphs :P )
Hmm.... all I can say about him and people like him, either stop bitching and get your ass in gear or get out. I am in college now for game design and have often wondered or debated if I should drop out or not.
I am glad I stayed in for certain projects and my internship, but even still I feel I have learned most of what I know, at least 3D related things on my own. I think I am one of the only people in class or one of the few in my college who do thigns outside of class like work on MODs or other projects not for class.
My class started out as around 32 students and now is 7. I still wonder how some people in my class are still there as their attitudes are very similar to this guy and same thing goes with the work ethic.
I hope I can get a job right away, but in reality that probably won't happen. I am in the middle of an art test now for a major game studio and all I can do work hard on it and give it what I got. If I dont get the job I dont get the job, then I know I need to work harder. It just really bothers me when people really want to be game artists but won't put the time and effort into it and expect to get a job. This industry like many others requires major self motivation, otherwise you won't get a job. No one is going to hold your hand all the way through.
Really after teaching for the last year I noticed this, there are those that do and those that bitch. And it is true that you need to have instructors that know what they are talking about, but really it is up to the student to take his career seriously, as I have put in more time in a few careers than those who's career it was. When it comes to the graduates, I am seriously harsh on them as I ask myself, " would it benefit our industry and this person if I let them graduate?" , and it's rarely a tough decision for me one way or another. I for one put in alot of time trying to push the students that enter my class, telling them to look at the proffesionals out there, to make sure to learn time managment and how one person who fails can have a ripple effect on a team and so on and so on. Either they get it the first time, or fail out of the class and take the class again and hopefully get it then. In my opinion looking at this guy's work, which is really the only proof that we can go on, I would say that he probably sat on his ass and expected good things to come to him, rather than get off it and do the hard work that is neccessary to get into the industry.
Really after teaching for the last year I noticed this, there are those that do and those that bitch. And it is true that you need to have instructors that know what they are talking about, but really it is up to the student to take his career seriously, as I have put in more time in a few careers than those who's career it was. When it comes to the graduates, I am seriously harsh on them as I ask myself, " would it benefit our industry and this person if I let them graduate?" , and it's rarely a tough decision for me one way or another. I for one put in alot of time trying to push the students that enter my class, telling them to look at the proffesionals out there, to make sure to learn time managment and how one person who fails can have a ripple effect on a team and so on and so on. Either they get it the first time, or fail out of the class and take the class again and hopefully get it then. In my opinion looking at this guy's work, which is really the only proof that we can go on, I would say that he probably sat on his ass and expected good things to come to him, rather than get off it and do the hard work that is neccessary to get into the industry.
Spark
I couldn't agree more. Thank you for doing your part. Hopefully your attitude is contagious and spreads.
I think that probably its not about the school not teaching what you need to know but the students not having enough practice in what they are taught. Atleast that is how i feel about the people that are not very good in my own class. They really have noone to blame but themselves. It is really easy to see what sets the good artists apart from the bad ones that wont get jobs, at 17:00 when we are no longer required to be in school the good ones stay and the bad ones go home to play WoW. The way i see it is i have 2 years to learn not only from my teachers but also from all the creative people in my class. It should be obvious to everyone that if you want a job in the industry your work have to be good enough to be in the games the company you apply to are making.
Even without a teacher you should be ALOT better then that guy after such a long time of trying to learn 3D.
this thread is very timely. I've been asked to consult at the local university for a game dev/art major/course-list they want to create. I'm going to point the admins to this thread, I've already made a list of things I want to discuss with them.
I'd love to know what the other vets on the forum think we can do to make better courses and graduates.
This guy really needs some prospective on life, you have to work for things you want. Just going to school doesn't mean you get something. I don't think there can be anything said that wasn't already mentioned, just feel sad for this guy that he has to seemingly lash out at something he never fully comprehended.
There's also a Game Education Summit happening at SMU June 10th http://www.gameeducationsummit.com/ for educators to talk directly to industry leaders.
As a university student in the UK i have to say that more can be done from a teaching point of view. The course i am on is an animation one but we get taught modelling, texturing and a bunch of other stuff but it isn't aimed at the games industry. Some students seem to think if they pass there modules they'll get a job without a problem. Also the people teaching the course seem not to be up to date with what's going on. One of them even asked why i was using 3DS Max. I find the students who do the best and get results are the ones with a passion for what they do who spend the time to go beyond what's taught and push themselves. I'm not a good artist but im always trying to improve and get involved with projects out with class. Simply doing just enough wont cut it.
As for the article I don't think the industry should take a risk on someone unproven not when so many proven individuals exist out there.
I'm almost afraid to post this, for fear of sounding like I've got an attitude like his, but I think he's mostly right about the way schools like that operate. Obviously students should expect to have to work hard in order to learn the skills they'll need, but at some point, the schools should really offer some guidance beyond "This is 3d... Here's how you move points on a primitive. Here's how you extrude. And this is meshsmooth. Now go make some objects".
That's pretty much all I learned about 3d from my school. I've been trying to learn as much as I can online ever since then (beginning while I was still in school), and I have no problem with that; but I wouldn't have wasted all that time and gone into that much debt if I'd realized that everything I need to learn would be learned on my own, at home, for free.
It may have been naive to assume that they would, but I was like 18 when I started looking at schools. When they said they'd teach me the skills to build up a solid portfolio, I assumed they weren't just flat-out lying. I knew I'd have to do work, but I figured at least some of the work would be done in the form of meaningful homework and focused lessons, and that in-class crits would be harsher than fluffy Deviant Art comments. I assumed an A would be for more than just showing up and handing in all the assignments on time.
That's why I sort of wish this guy would have written something more pointed and relevant if he was going to write a bitch-piece about art college. Those schools could all be a lot better if they'd just start demanding better work from their students and paying attention to what's really required for entry-level employment.
A dentistry school wouldn't rely on its students going out and learning to perform oral surgery by reading tutorials on the Internet. That would be stupid. So why is it okay for any other profession? If a school can't base its instruction and grading on the standards that the game industry holds, then the school has no business offering a degree in game art.
the problem is that universities are academic insitutes, if you're good at reaserch, writing, and bullshit then you'll probably pull off a good grade with sub standard technical work. So long as you have some kind of reason why you made the shirt blue because it shows the characters feelings of deep inward reflection and meditation. You need the nouse and drive to do cool stuff, and you bring those to university you aren't taught them.
That's the bottom line- I am personally glad i want to uni, and I ran into the same problems as Mop (in the same uni ) but, the reaserch, writing and bullshit did teach me stuff that I wouldnt have bothered to learn otherwise, and that I feel back up what I have to do these days at work.
Really after teaching for the last year I noticed this, there are those that do and those that bitch. And it is true that you need to have instructors that know what they are talking about, but really it is up to the student to take his career seriously, as I have put in more time in a few careers than those who's career it was. When it comes to the graduates, I am seriously harsh on them as I ask myself, " would it benefit our industry and this person if I let them graduate?" , and it's rarely a tough decision for me one way or another. I for one put in alot of time trying to push the students that enter my class, telling them to look at the proffesionals out there, to make sure to learn time managment and how one person who fails can have a ripple effect on a team and so on and so on. Either they get it the first time, or fail out of the class and take the class again and hopefully get it then. In my opinion looking at this guy's work, which is really the only proof that we can go on, I would say that he probably sat on his ass and expected good things to come to him, rather than get off it and do the hard work that is neccessary to get into the industry.
Replies
if not lol.
I'm pretty sure at this guy's university no-one actually told him that he'll definitely land a job just for attending his classes.
There's not much to say here, the guy reminds me of a classmate of mine who was so fucking high all the time, he was under the impression he was the worlds best animator. Complete detachment from reality, this guy must be a similar case, although he does say "his portfolio isn't the greatest".
Well no shit it ain't the greatest motherfucker, it looks like the shit you create before entering a university while playing with max 2.5 that you downloaded 8 years ago and didn't even bother reading tutorials.
Anyway, the guy might be looking for a position as writer somewhere, so if that's the case and he only wrote this article to add to his article-writing portfolio, I applaud him. I really hope that's the reason he wrote that article.
*fixed.
Posts: 2
I attended with him...
"I went to school with him... and was his roommate.
I must say that like all education, it is what you take out of it. With the need for a kick ass portfolio, it should never include in-class work. Those are just assignments to teach you the skills to make something better.
I can't tell you how many of my peers still show chess sets in there modeling reels... It is the first assignment from a beginning 3DSMAX class.
As far as jobs in the industry, he did not mention that he did not want to leave the area he is at. That area has only 6 studios, non of which are hiring anything but concept artists and programmers. As he is neither, it does not apply to him.
A few other companies he applied at were for writing, which arguably he is better at than other tasks, but not what his education was for. Possibly he should of switched long ago...
He has a sour attitude towards his education here since he arrived, sabotaging himself with his game focused education.
As for Guild Hall, he was not accepted and never went. That is a Masters program and he is referring to a Undergraduate program in contrast.
Lastly with all the other comments he made on the industry and such, I must add -
He is a novice, he never did any study into women in the industry, education in the industry, or anything else he talks about.
This is a self taught industry even to this day. It takes drive and focus. What more it takes a understand that you need to improve, and that you need to work as hard and harder as the next guy to make a effort.
I attend every GDC that I can just to build connections for when I ask for a job. I spend months making games, because I enjoy it. If my stuff sucks, I redo it. This is a tenancy that he never found.
I myself might be to blame, a large portion of the time I had arguments with the other roommates that wanted to see him model, not his strong suite. The whole time he should of been focusing on writing."
Saw this posted on their forums in reply to his op ed,supposedly from his roomate
but yeah i think people are more humbled by traditional work than digital when it comes to giving it a shot.
Originally Posted by CKeene
Something can be said for not being found in the search query "Does [school] suck".
There is a frighteningly large amount of negative press circulating about trade schools that people are absorbing and using in their vehement need to discredit x school. Yes, there are a lot of bogus programs out there. No, you certainly don't need to attend a games-specific program to get in the industry.
Like I said on another post, I attend the same school and was his roommate. It is not a trade school like he says, it is fully accredited and supports many disciplines.
The school was not bad, he merely sabotaged himself, and did not put any effort into the work.
When working on a group, he left early every night so he could sleep, or so he would not miss his TV shows, which were reruns.
He did not put the effort forth to enable his own portfolio. They teach never to use what you made in class, that the classes are a teaching tool. To many don't listen and put the 3DSMax 101 Chess set into there portfolio still.
You are suppose to work on a completed game project before graduation, he waited to the last semester.
He did not want to leave AZ so he did not look past this state when applying.
He hurt himself, and is a poor reflection of what the school is. While he did not finish with a kick ass portfolio, he meet the bar minimum standards that the school can not withhold his degree, he did pay for it right.
But a degree has little to no bearing on a job in this industry.
His mistake is in thinking a degree will get him a job when he does not have the talent himself.
If its true it would make sense,i went to school with alot of guys with lax attitudes like this.
It's crap like this that continues the cycle of laziness. Boo Hoo getting a job is tough...well guess what dude you think it was easy for the rest of us? I bet more than half of us could write a book on our journeys getting into the game industry.
I could go on and on...but alas i need to work!
Glad to see his roommate posting a second opinion.
B
He needs more time behind the wheel of the application. Shit, I was given an art test for TR and had to learn max from the get go and learned max from scratch and almost finished the art test but I sent it in letting them know I knew maya and picked up max in a week. I could have done the building in Maya but went ahead and learned max for 5or 6 days and modelled the building for 1-2. Now I feel pretty comfortable in Max and previously I just hadn't used it.
He just needs to get elbow deep into the applications and start posting stuff and learning from his mistakes. PC and IRC PC has helped me tremendously, and I told everyone while I was going to school to post here and none have, and my stuff is hanging all over the walls at schools and when I see it now I cringe and how noobtacular it is.
Maybe he's not pressing it right... Last time I checked you didn't need schooling to learn how to press a button.
On a serious note, its too much of a whine. I can't believe that anyone would expect to get anywhere without doing the required work. "what do you mean I suck, I paid my money what for you not pour knowledge and experienced in mine head?"
The parts that complain about burn out are pure imagination. Only the horribly mismanaged places work their people to the breaking point. Which are exactly the types of places he would get hired at. He wouldn't solve burn out, he would contribute to it by working at a place no one else would.
I admire the attitude of "doing anything it takes to get in". But how about doing what is required?
What scares me is his few lines about working cheaper. Son of a bitch. You want my job, take it, but take it because you can do it better, not because you can do it cheaper. You hurt not only yourself but everyone else trying to get a foot in the door.
Alex
I have recently been thinking about these issues, as I have friends whom are currently trying to graduate, and I have about a year to a year and half left of school.
I think that what a lot of us need to realize is that in college we basically have 3 years to make a product out of ourselves. Our homework is only there as a learning device, but really shouldn't be in a portfolio. It's not high school anymore, and just "doing the work" isn't going to be up to standards; We can't wait until Portfolio time rolls around to start either.
(this is off subject but hear me out)
My problem is that I'm still really unsure about what I want to do! I enjoy modeling, animating, and most of all drawing. It's time to pick a specific to focus on, but it's really hard for me. I know that I need to make up my mind now, but how do you know for sure? All I know is that I love drawing, but I have a feeling that it's easier to love drawing, because I've already spent my whole life practicing and improving. Modeling and animating are scary because it's a whole new "something" to learn. But I'm willing to take the effort to do so, it's just.... which one?
My univeristy (University of Southern Miss) had probably 70-80% students who thought that doing the bare minimum would get them a job. It's simply not the case in any field. I know 3 students from my graduating class who work at the mall, right now.
It's a shame.
Thanks
Spark
http://www.gamecareerguide.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1287
Spark
lmao, pwnt.
Granted, its impossible to tell by just looking at work, but if i were that guy's prof i'd be damn sure that he'd be doing 100x more than what was there to try to improve, not to just churn and burn formula models.
tighten up the graphics on level 3 imo.
If i was him, I'd delete all that work, pickup some tutorials and make new portfolio pieces that actually look like they were made in zbrush.
Exactly, hence why I haven't really had time to work on anything. I've just graduated with a Masters Degree, but my reel that was supposed to be modeling focused, I cannot use, simply because what they wanted me to turn in as a finished product was entirely different than what the industry accepts and sees as standard. Turntables? Nope. Renders showing proper edgeloop topology and meshflow? Not there either. Almost a one minute animated short movie with storyline, where I had to take care of everything from particle fx to sound myself, and do a complete write-up of the reseach behind said project, with storyboards, animatics, etc.?...yes. :poly107:
You wouldn't find him coming from this...
[ame]http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=spSGNMJhWV0[/ame]
Sadly I have to agree. Towards the end of this year I couldn`t wait to finish all the uni assignments (effects (wtf?), animation) so I can work on stuff that actually matters (building a portfolio). I still gave it my best shot and even enjoyed it but couldn`t shake the feeling that all this work was for nothing. SUre I may get a few extra % but will I be hired because I produced some awesome (??? :>)spacemonsterfight-scene for uni? I think not.
I got a low B grade for my online portfolio at University. It was graded by a woman who couldn't tell you the difference between a polygon and a pixel... I even had included several appraisals from industry veterans in well-known companies to back up my work, but I guess she ignored them or didn't understand them.
It turned out that people who handed in websites for the same course, which were 100% Flash animated, poorly put together and lacking content, got A-grades for that stuff.
Guess who got a job...
There are far too many universities springing open new courses with only half a clue of what to actually teach or how to teach in them. The majority of the UK university "games industry" related courses have only sprung up in the last 5 years or so, and are basically just catch-all courses for spitting out jack-of-all-trades students who can do mediocre work in a few digital media.
The universities need to improve before students will get any actual work-related information or tuition out of them. Pretty much every technical thing available at my university, I already knew before going in.
It doesn't help that a lot of students seem to think that the course will hand them their desired career on a platter... they don't seem to realise that you actually have to work towards your goals, spend some time outside of school researching and practising your craft.
Seems like the attitude of most students (non games industry related) that I've met here in the UK anyway, so I'm not surprised that they get ripped off and can't pay back their loans.
lol , are you sure you didn`t go to my school? EXACTLY the same story here.
that said, it never really bothered me much. I never had the illusion that uni assignments alone get me far. 99% of what I know comes from reading tutorials, forums and researching industry workflows - I dont think many of my tutors ever heard of occlusion maps or xnormal or crazybump or proper edgeflow and the list could go on :poly133:
my ars poetica is what you do in your free time outside uni is what really matters
The guy that got an A in the 3d class could barely get a job at kinkos when he went to get a real job. I barely got a B I got into fight with the professors too much, the fact that I knew they were wasting my time and money didn't go over to well. Damn you Alex for not kissing our behinds, you have to lick our arse for the A, no licking you take your B and die.
Alex
So I took the time to look into each game I've been playing and see if I can understand how things are built and put across to us players. And of course I've looked at peoples work here, which is some of the best when putting across ideas and the process behind each piece.
This guy can go on its educations fault, but as individual artists I feel its about how we handle that gap and over come it.
Just my 20p anyways.
The reason for my frustration with this is that its outside the instructor's hands really. Even if the instructors know what they're talking about (a lot of mine did, they were all professionals actually in the industry with experience for what they were teaching), the University as an entity may expect something entirely different from its students in order to award them a degree. Generalization is another problem with the University system. Specialization sometimes is good, especially if the student wants to specialize in something, instead of being a jack-of-all trades, master of none... :poly105:
He should have been failing his classes from day one, and would then be forced to either step up his work or drop out. Any polycounter could have told him his work was crap, his school just kept patting him on the shoulder for 2 to 4 years and then shoved him out the door, diploma in hand.
Thats why this industry is so largely self taught still (and Polycount is entirely self taught, so don't judge so harsly). The academic side is not up to snuff and if you can't put in the effort to learn said Skillz from the internet you're basically fucked.
In more mature fields of work, say accounting, you can get your degree and trust your school to provide you with a baseline education to get you in the door and on to counting someone's beans. This guy didn't even get that.
I honestly think it may be a combination of things that caused him to write this:
* The feeling of being ripped off by the promises of his university
* The actual loss of $ that was spent in the program that might have otherwise been used elsewhere to further this career endeavor (or another).
* The inability to understand why his degree doesn't mean more in this industry (which, I believe was the transition from blaming his school to blaming the industry as a whole).
I felt sorry for the guy. And before I got to reading "Part B," I really didn't think the article was too terrible. But when he got to Part B, he not only started knocking the industry for wanting to be successful (by its hiring the best and brightest it can get), but by totally giving up hope. He can't change the school and he can't change the industry's standard for excellence. As a result, he needs to focus on the one thing that IS within his power to change....the quality of his work....which will only come by hard work, perseverance, and a change in attitude.
on the flip side of that, i do understand why they have you do so much stuff that isnt related to hardcore game development. i know that here at PC were primarily focused on poly modeling to industry standards, but you have to realize that there are other kinds of games out there. the way i always looked at it the school was throwing a bit of every aspect of all kinds of gaming at you, and it was your job to find what you liked the most and run with that in your own time.
i know a couple of guys who went to school for games, all fired up about hardcore gaming, and found they really truly enjoyed doing flash, and now work in the casual games market. im sure that at least a couple people found a love for particles or animation, or lighting, or whatever that they never knew they had. that is the schools job in my eyes, to expose the students to all aspects of video games and see what they like the best. its the job of the student to take what they like best and do a whole shit ton of that in their freetime.
ON TOPIC:
that was an extraordinary bad portfolio, but a well written article bitching about the industry. perhaps what homeboy needs to do is concentrate on his writing and give up on making games.
[edit] I guess he's technically an ape, not a monkey
I am glad I stayed in for certain projects and my internship, but even still I feel I have learned most of what I know, at least 3D related things on my own. I think I am one of the only people in class or one of the few in my college who do thigns outside of class like work on MODs or other projects not for class.
My class started out as around 32 students and now is 7. I still wonder how some people in my class are still there as their attitudes are very similar to this guy and same thing goes with the work ethic.
I hope I can get a job right away, but in reality that probably won't happen. I am in the middle of an art test now for a major game studio and all I can do work hard on it and give it what I got. If I dont get the job I dont get the job, then I know I need to work harder. It just really bothers me when people really want to be game artists but won't put the time and effort into it and expect to get a job. This industry like many others requires major self motivation, otherwise you won't get a job. No one is going to hold your hand all the way through.
Spark
Even without a teacher you should be ALOT better then that guy after such a long time of trying to learn 3D.
this thread is very timely. I've been asked to consult at the local university for a game dev/art major/course-list they want to create. I'm going to point the admins to this thread, I've already made a list of things I want to discuss with them.
I'd love to know what the other vets on the forum think we can do to make better courses and graduates.
Here is what I have so far: http://www.exisinteractive.com/schools3.html
As for the article I don't think the industry should take a risk on someone unproven not when so many proven individuals exist out there.
That's pretty much all I learned about 3d from my school. I've been trying to learn as much as I can online ever since then (beginning while I was still in school), and I have no problem with that; but I wouldn't have wasted all that time and gone into that much debt if I'd realized that everything I need to learn would be learned on my own, at home, for free.
It may have been naive to assume that they would, but I was like 18 when I started looking at schools. When they said they'd teach me the skills to build up a solid portfolio, I assumed they weren't just flat-out lying. I knew I'd have to do work, but I figured at least some of the work would be done in the form of meaningful homework and focused lessons, and that in-class crits would be harsher than fluffy Deviant Art comments. I assumed an A would be for more than just showing up and handing in all the assignments on time.
That's why I sort of wish this guy would have written something more pointed and relevant if he was going to write a bitch-piece about art college. Those schools could all be a lot better if they'd just start demanding better work from their students and paying attention to what's really required for entry-level employment.
A dentistry school wouldn't rely on its students going out and learning to perform oral surgery by reading tutorials on the Internet. That would be stupid. So why is it okay for any other profession? If a school can't base its instruction and grading on the standards that the game industry holds, then the school has no business offering a degree in game art.
That's the bottom line- I am personally glad i want to uni, and I ran into the same problems as Mop (in the same uni
So true, Spark.
OT: In other news from McKinney, Texas - Crap artist that did get a job? http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/051708dnmetyearbook.108e16bb1.html