I think I'm outnumbered on Polycount by a lot, as I'm a very big proponent of college education, but I think the issue is about what someone expects to get from college. Most would-be game artists aren't really looking for a typical fine arts education; they want a technical education to teach them the ins-and-outs of practical game development so they can get jobs as soon as possible. There's nothing at all wrong with that - if you want to learn to be a welder, you don't go for a degree in metallurgy, and you don't spend five years getting a degree in materials science and complain at the end that you never learned how to operate an arc welder.
Personally, I've always had issues with the idea of a fine arts diploma. You can be exposed to the theory and philosophy and history of art, but none of that is going to make you a good painter in and of itself. For that, you need to paint, and you need to do it a hell of a lot more than school studio classes could provide.
Anyway, I think that if the school is marketing itself as a curriculum that places graduates in game industry jobs, it's seriously at fault for misrepresenting that. But I think it's just as much a fault of a student of any art who thinks getting a diploma is substitute for ability. That's not true in any field, but doubly so in a creative one. If you don't notice until your last year of college that your technical skills are crap, it's just as much your failure as it is the university's.
The first rule of portfolios is that the portfolio is about as strong as your weakest piece. Art directors will tell you not to include things in your portfolio you'd be ashamed of people seeing.
And this guy is telling the world he knows his portfolio isn't very competitive.
Yet, instead of thinking, "Maybe I should improve my portfolio," he instead thinks, "The system is broken! Revolution! Up with the fresh hungry neophytes! Look, I have passion too!"
(This problem exists in other industries as well. Writing is another notable place where people get rejected and then accuse the system of being broken, or better still, run by a power-hungry cabal of publishers.)
Anyway, I think he's confusing his passion with playing video games for a creative passion. If he was truly creative or passionate, I can't help thinking that his portfolio would reflect that instead being bland and uninspiring and rather incompetently executed. I didn't see one item in his portfolio that would lead me to believe he played or loved a video game. Nothing that says, "Hey, I made a concept for Diablo or a mod for Civ or NWN...." Nothing.
All the devs I know are workaholics who keep outside projects on their plates. They enter things like 11 second club or model favourite characters from old cartoons...that sort of thing. You can tell what they love. It's all over their portfolio, it's on their desks at home, it permeates their lives.
I feel bad for the guy, but if he's really passionate, hopefully he'll get off his arse and work on improving his stuff.
Sadly I have to agree. Towards the end of this year I couldn`t wait to finish all the uni assignments (effects (wtf?), animation) so I can work on stuff that actually matters (building a portfolio). I still gave it my best shot and even enjoyed it but couldn`t shake the feeling that all this work was for nothing. SUre I may get a few extra % but will I be hired because I produced some awesome (??? :>)spacemonsterfight-scene for uni? I think not.
Man, 3D Effects for Games was brutal. I'm giving it in this summer, didn't even bother with it during the year.
I totally agree with rooster - going to uni is way more awesome that some tech college - especially if you gave great teachers/tutors as enthusiastic as you...
but yes, though also it's a downer when you have to bullshit your way through a 4000 word essay on European post-war fellinism and what that piece "emotes"....lame
you have these 55yr old tutors teaching "new media" course as part as a compulsory elective, still quoting some fucker lev manovich, and saying that we can't reference anything outside of the archaic and pompous "gamestudies" site - which again has 60 year olds posting invalid articles about 'game studies'......meh after three years i'm kinda upset about the uni bureaucracy, and the fact that the main animation labs are still using half-assed linuxes!!
anywayyy, with these theory based courses, i think the networking, and deep thinking and self-motivation that you get from going to uni (like thematic projects) outways my attendence at a dullish tech course where everyones end of your 'portfolio' has a generic morph target (lip synching) animation.uggggh.
the problem is that universities are academic insitutes, if you're good at reaserch, writing, and bullshit then you'll probably pull off a good grade with sub standard technical work. So long as you have some kind of reason why you made the shirt blue because it shows the characters feelings of deep inward reflection and meditation. You need the nouse and drive to do cool stuff, and you bring those to university you aren't taught them.
That's the bottom line- I am personally glad i want to uni, and I ran into the same problems as Mop (in the same uni ) but, the research, writing and bullshit did teach me stuff that I wouldnt have bothered to learn otherwise, and that I feel back up what I have to do these days at work.
Totally agree with this.
The program I'm in at the moment is well.. somewhat of a joke. I'm pulling nearly straight A's without even trying. Its sad, but it gives me time to work on things outside of school and work, that can help me portfolio wise later.
While the program itself isn't tremendously useful to me in terms of professional development, I'm somewhat happy to be there, if nothing else than to share a lot of the technical information from here and my own research etc, with a load of people who largely haven't a clue, and haven't figured out where to look. Still going to write a semi-rebuttal Op-Ed piece and hope they publish it. Another perspective is needed, especially if anyone reads that article without reading the assorted forum discussions surrounding it.
I just checked his portfolio again and looked trough all the pieces and I am amazed by how long it took him to make some of his stuff. There are 3 'menu boards' on his portfolio which basically consist of a plane with a texture made up from text and googled images and it took him one and a half hour to make it!!! Damn, even if you ask someone who hasnt been to a design school could make it better than that shit!
If you know how to write, it doesnt automatically make you a great writer. If you know how to make 3d assets, it doesnt automatically make you a great 3d artist.
he's obviously hasn't been directed to what the game dev industry is looking for at the moment. His work would of been great for the ps1 generation but sadly not for the 360 generation.
So because his work isn't good enough for the current gen, it'd be a shoe-in for older tech? I couldn't disagree more. He lacks any skill in texturing, and I see no reason to believe he could achieve great results with low polycounts. You've never struck me as a particularly troll-ish or stupid person, so I'll reserve my 'bollocks, what a pointless comment', but you can see how that's not entirely correct, right?
PeterK that looks like a pretty good list to me so far. Nice to see someone who has the ability to actually do something about this game art education issue. Most of us just talk about it and cant do much more. I think I will have a chat with my lecturers before I leave uni and make sure they know what my experience of university was like. I was right from the beginning and even tried to change university but in the end I just kept my mouth shut and got on with it. Im really grateful for having 3 years to teach myself what I want and for the experience of being at university with other like minded students was great but Im appalled at the quality of education.
got my degree show in a week its kinda strange I want to make sure people know that the work I display is mine and is not the result of any kind of standardised educational program. The lecturers wont ever have even seen alot of my work.
fucking looser , altho , in the school were i am at ( where i go like once in a month ) its full of people like that, that make some boxy people in the T pose and slap a noise texture done, they are ready to work at ilm, the other day i tried to tell a retard that if his website takes 19 seconds to load it would be enough for anyone to throw it away , the conversation ended with him telling me "what the fuck you know about it ? the professor knows his shit and told me to do it like this ,." obviously i didnt even bother.
But yeah schools are 90% shitty, and from those shitty 99% of people that come out are below mediocre prop artists.
hahaha are you serious? why exactly are YOU on such a school? honestly you could teach there...
So because his work isn't good enough for the current gen, it'd be a shoe-in for older tech? I couldn't disagree more. He lacks any skill in texturing, and I see no reason to believe he could achieve great results with low polycounts. You've never struck me as a particularly troll-ish or stupid person, so I'll reserve my 'bollocks, what a pointless comment', but you can see how that's not entirely correct, right?
haha, funny thing is that it seems like lowbudget studios on wii and ds (but not exclusively) usually end up with that kind of people, since "obviously" lowpoly is easier to make better looking.
Seing alot of the lowpoly stuff on here, it makes me realize ds and wii games should look way better than they do
Hard to feel sorry for a guy who looks like he's spent a total of one day on his entire portfolio. Commitment? Passion? I think not. Geezus. He probably spent more time writing that bloody article.
Rofl, my situation was the same, but i definately wasnt blind to the issue, I was given a choice of finishing my degree for the brilliant peice of paper, or going my own route and actually making myself a reel, i went with the latter.
Still got my shitty piece of paper too! Albeit it isnt as pretty haha.
But alas, people just like him are what every (EVERY) university is after these days, there not after people who will get their eitherway, there after the braindead ignorant.
Coming from a decent college educated animation program, I have to say that formal education isn't everything... it's the desire, the drive, the commitment and the passion that gets you things you need, from experience to skills to a kickass portfolio and a job.
This guy's port just seems like a bunch of random stuff... there's no soul, no expression in it... they just look like he's following instructions to complete a task. There's nothing extra anywhere on that port to say that he'd be willing to go that extra bit to make it look good.
Not that I'm not guilty of similar things along the vein, but I know when I have to step it up to make a good impression. Everyone needs to know their limitations and when to push to succeed... this guy just seems to be coasting.
Really after teaching for the last year I noticed this, there are those that do and those that bitch. And it is true that you need to have instructors that know what they are talking about, but really it is up to the student to take his career seriously, as I have put in more time in a few careers than those who's career it was. When it comes to the graduates, I am seriously harsh on them as I ask myself, " would it benefit our industry and this person if I let them graduate?" , and it's rarely a tough decision for me one way or another. I for one put in alot of time trying to push the students that enter my class, telling them to look at the proffesionals out there, to make sure to learn time managment and how one person who fails can have a ripple effect on a team and so on and so on. Either they get it the first time, or fail out of the class and take the class again and hopefully get it then. In my opinion looking at this guy's work, which is really the only proof that we can go on, I would say that he probably sat on his ass and expected good things to come to him, rather than get off it and do the hard work that is neccessary to get into the industry.
Spark
As a Student of Spark, I have to say it fucking sucks, and its hard. But damnit we need more teachers like him, because people in schools like mine now a days get away with way too much! Then they end up like this guy, but are clueless as to why they ended up that way!
The truth is, the people that open these schools don't open them for the benefit of the gaming/art/3D industry, in fact most of them don't know anything about the industry at all! What they know is that gaming is popular, and it will make them money.
So if your passing the class your paying for it, and if your paying for it they make money, and when you realise that you graduated but you learned nothing, they walk away with all your money and say ok good luck out there.
Im not saying its that extreme everywhere you go, but that kind of corporate pressure to make and turn a profit is everywhere, and in an industry like this it is prime for corruption, because honestly the only standards you are held to is that people are entertained, its not like your being trained to save someones life here, in the end its all about the money.
The truth is, the people that open these schools don't open them for the benefit of the gaming/art/3D industry, in fact most of them don't know anything about the industry at all! What they know is that gaming is popular, and it will make them money.
So if your passing the class your paying for it, and if your paying for it they make money, and when you realise that you graduated but you learned nothing, they walk away with all your money and say ok good luck out there.
Isn't that how every college/university is? Every one I've been to was like that. A college/university is a business first and foremost. I would imagine that colleges and faculty that put the wellbeing of their particular field above the monetary bottom line are few and far-between.
Coming from a decent college educated animation program, I have to say that formal education isn't everything... it's the desire, the drive, the commitment and the passion that gets you things you need, from experience to skills to a kickass portfolio and a job.
This guy's port just seems like a bunch of random stuff... there's no soul, no expression in it... they just look like he's following instructions to complete a task. There's nothing extra anywhere on that port to say that he'd be willing to go that extra bit to make it look good.
Not that I'm not guilty of similar things along the vein, but I know when I have to step it up to make a good impression. Everyone needs to know their limitations and when to push to succeed... this guy just seems to be coasting.
You don't need heart, or to pour our soul into your work to succeed. But you do need to demonstrate that you can preform at a competent level. The school failed to weed him out, mostly for the reasons firecracker outlined. But he also failed to prepare himself properly.
School can only give you a chance to work on 2 of the three things needed to land a job. Practice, dedication and a good/great portfolio, which is the proof of the first two.
Heart, soul, creativity, those are nice but not required.
What I do is just ask questions in forums like this, actually USE the advice, and IMPROVE. I've never taken any art classes involving 3d or texturing, nor are they available where I live
I don't know anything about the "industry," and I'm still a kid, so I can't give any input about that or classes.
Good practice does not make perfect, but it makes improvement. On the other hand, bad practice leads to bad technique. And if you post your practice on a site like this, people can tell you what you do wrong or what you do right, and flesh out the rights and flush down the wrongs
Wow, this guy has caused quite the stir haha. I think that it is fairly easy to teach someone how to do something, but very difficult to teach how to do that same thing very well and with purpose. It is a tough argument for those opposed to college educations or just learning it on your own. At the beginning of my schooling I thought the knowledge would just work itself out and my instructors would point me in the right direction. Lo and behold it did not quite work out that way. But it did give me the ability to find the answers or solutions on my own. Fortunately I had the drive and passion to truly want to learn beyond the classroom. I did learn the majority of what I know from websites and pitfalls other artists had encountered.
I am thankful for my education but if I would of relied on only my instructors I would have failed miserably and wouldn't have come out of the gates knowing a thing. As with everything in life you get out of things what you truly put in.
This poor guy did not go into it knowing what it would really take and probably thought that what he would be taught would give him the abilities without the practice. I do think he is wrong for writing a negative view towards the gaming industry. he should be sending some of those arrows at the school and instructors then turn the bow on himself and fire the rest of those arrows at himself. I agree the guy should go into writing and maybe his article will help him realize things happen for a reason and that his true path is in the writing field. He can become a game reviewer and still be part of the industry in that capacity..
Remember kids, nothing comes to those who sit and expect things. Things come to those that put in the time and effort to realize their endeavors are the outcome of their true desires.
My co-workers and I have decided that this MUST be a joke. Like "The Onion" of game career articles/portfolios. I think he's taking all of us for a horrible, horrible ride. Or at least I really hope he is. : /
you spend around 1500 on a Intro to Black an White Photography class
And you get learn this,
how you a 35mm manual camera correctly
what the different combinations of fstops and shutter speed do to the picture you are take.
how to develop you negative properly
how to print archival photographs
how to use an enlarger
All this in one semester, and you either learn or fail the class, simple as that.
Computer classes 90 % of the time you get this bull
Do a quickie in Photoshop
Do quickie in Illustrator
do final project with photoshop and Illustrator,
Nothing in depth or challenging like you would get with the photography class yet both are intros classes. The main problem is the expectations set by the Art department. In the Photo class the lazy students knew that if they didn't do goo d work they would fail, in the computer class they knew it was coffee shop time.
Why this is, I don't know but it drove me nuts when I was in school. There was never enough time to learn or do any good projects, and the professors didn't care.
You don't need heart, or to pour our soul into your work to succeed. But you do need to demonstrate that you can preform at a competent level. The school failed to weed him out, mostly for the reasons firecracker outlined. But he also failed to prepare himself properly.
School can only give you a chance to work on 2 of the three things needed to land a job. Practice, dedication and a good/great portfolio, which is the proof of the first two.
Heart, soul, creativity, those are nice but not required.
I suppose that's true... working for 2 years in the tv animation industry sapped my heart and soul away that I turned into an automaton that bent over on request.
I'd like to add that I got that gig cause I was good enough at the right moment in time that they needed someone at the studio (middle of my last year at school) I think they needed 12 for the night shift, they interviewed 10 from my school and hired 6.
While the others who were more skilled decided not to apply because they wanted to finish school first, I decided I had nothing to lose and it was a chance to jump ahead of portfolios I knew were stronger than mine.
But yes vig, you're absolutely right, you don't need any of those I listed, just a proficiency in producing quality work.
I get the feeling though (along with a bunch of others who have mentioned it) that his program is a cash cow program, designed to sucker people into handing over their money. It's not to say though, that even with their minimal training, that you can't put more into it than they expect of you, to get your work that much better.
You can't get away with doing bare minimum all the time.
From what I have seen of 3d schools people are far better off joining Polycount in most cases, it doesn't cost you a fortune and you will quickly discover if you have what it takes to not only learn the skills you need but also to deal with some pretty harsh criticisim. I have seen numerous portfolios from kids that have either just finished or are finishing some form of art school and I have to say that in most cases I am seriously unimpressed. For gods sake, I am self taught and learned most of what I know by scouring boards like PC and CGSociety and even I can do better than a lot of the junk I see these days.
Vig has a point, practice and dedication will take you far further than raw tallent and creativity. Lets face it people, 3d artists who make it into the industry seldom get the chance to show creativity, you make what you are told to make and you make it on time. Most people wanting to get into the industry are in love with an idea and like most ideas things are never quite like you imagine.
This guys portfolio looks like someone did a bunch of free tutorials (badly) in an afternoon and put the result into a portfolio. There is literaly nothing in there that tells me he has had any training at all. If this is what graduates from art schools then I am so happy I never wasted my hard earned cash on going to one.
Well you get to meet ladies at school soo it's not a total waste. I love the comment about the tutorials, but no it wasn't free which is the entire problem.
Ladies at school? (O_O) where, where, i cant see them T_T.. i think it's more likely for a decent girl to randomly knock on your door at home than a decent looking girl to even get close to setting it's foot inside a game school :P
Ladies at school? (O_O) where, where, i cant see them T_T.. i think it's more likely for a decent girl to randomly knock on your door at home than a decent looking girl to even get close to setting it's foot inside a game school :P
I've done both for an extended period of time. Statement is fail.
Ladies at school? (O_O) where, where, i cant see them T_T.. i think it's more likely for a decent girl to randomly knock on your door at home than a decent looking girl to even get close to setting it's foot inside a game school :P
Hey I resent that, there are some cool girls out there ok, just dont freak out and everything will be fine, just like normal ppl socialize..but oh yeah I forget I go to a game school....
Being an artist who wants to publicly display his work(i.e apply for jobs or release in general) you have to have the stomach for rejection and have the drive and will to improve and keep trying. Most people don't have the constitution for it, including this guy it would seem.
I learned normal mapping from ben mathis and learned how to properly project normals from jordan walker and his txvinewall file he uploaded a few year ago. Even after showing that stuff and introducing the nvidia filter, crazybump, xnormal to my instructors they still felt what they were teaching was better. They said those were incorrect methods or tools. :poly101: they came around eventually..
I feel lucky my intructors at AAU weren't that way... They were mostly very open to new idea and loved it when people demonstrated new techniques in class to other students.
I can sympathize with how the guy has no idea what quality work should be however. Having crappy arts is one thing, but I really think every school should at least make their students understand what "good acceptable" arts are... I had a few friends that graduated from AAU, completely crappy port folio but the teacher/director still let them out with praises. Really confusing. I heard some story too that a few instructor at AAU got in trouble because they criticized students assignment too harsh, I guess it's one reason instructor just praise their students now.
I used to study Architect and we got really harsh critique. My instructor really tore our projects to shit, picking on every errors pointing out every bad little spot. It was really depressing. But once you graduate out into real world, that's exactly what you'll get from your clients/boss. The cold hard truth are important to get used to.
On the one hand, I think most of the members here can sympathize with the author's situation. We've pretty much all been "there" at one point or another. We all get frustrated with the never-ending quest for employment. Even if you do manage to land a good job in the industry you love, a wise man (or woman) will still keep their ear to the ground in hopes of future opportunities. I thankfully managed to land a new job after two months of unemployment. (not in the games industry, but mortgages don't pay themselves) Being out of work is no picnic.
But on the other hand, I can't bring myself to dole out sympathy for someone who is not willing to put in the requisite legwork. I went to a liberal-arts college and got a well-rounded education with a major in Graphic Design. I may not be the best at what I do, but I'm good enough to stay consistently employed in the design industry. And even though 3D modeling is just a hobby for me, I've taught myself everything I know about it. I've never taken a single class or had any formal training, and I'd still put my 3D work up against that guy's efforts any day of the week. And I know there are quite a few other board members here like me.
Passion and enthusiasm are well and good. But you would imagine that genuine passion would translate into a desire for practice and disciplined effort. When I get psyched about a project, I roll up my sleeves and get busy. The opportunity in the industry is actually expanding as of late, and that trend is likely to continue. Even if opportunity knocks, you still have to get your lazy ass off the sofa and answer the door.
On the one hand, I think most of the members here can sympathize with the author's situation. We've pretty much all been "there" at one point or another. We all get frustrated with the never-ending quest for employment.
The problem I have with that line is that If you do the math on his individual piece time estimates, this kid has a weekends work to show for what, a 2, 3 year course? Everybody I know that is exceptional or even good in this field, got there through a lot of hard work and self training, whether naturally gifted or not. No sympathy here.
The problem I have with that line is that If you do the math on his individual piece time estimates, this kid has a weekends work to show for what, a 2, 3 year course? Everybody I know that is exceptional or even good in this field, got there through a lot of hard work and self training, whether naturally gifted or not. No sympathy here.
Quoted for truth. I remember busting my ass off in school, the highlight being a week long stint in the lab without going home (or even showering, if I recall, ugh). Sure I was stinky and my socks peeled off at the end, but it payed off in my demo reel and I landed a job as soon as I graduated. Personally, I think the greatest thing you gain from any school, really, is not so much instructors (cant think of a single teacher in all my education that really impacted on me) as is classmates and, hopefully, facilities. I didn't really learn all that much from teachers, but an absolute shitload from my fellow classmates. Provided, of course, you have competent classmates :P
Personally, I think the greatest thing you gain from any school, really, is not so much instructors (cant think of a single teacher in all my education that really impacted on me) as is classmates and, hopefully, facilities. I didn't really learn all that much from teachers, but an absolute shitload from my fellow classmates. Provided, of course, you have competent classmates :P
I think this is significant. When I was in school, one of the factors that pushed my craft the most was the constant comparisons with my contemporaries. My teachers would always have the class evaluate each piece vocally. Few things are harsher than having all your fellow students tear your work to shreds with their minds. It made you keenly aware of what to look for and what to work on. Facilities are also a plus. My college had only one copy of Lightwave, and they lost the dongle three weeks into my first semester. So sad.
You know what is funny, I am in the same boat as this guy as far as a full time position, and I am not crying about it. I know plenty of artists who did not get their foot in the door right away, and he needs to suck it up, and get better. Geezus and I were upset for the longest time because we did not land positions (now he works with Red Storm) and I am doing freelance. I guarantee that I am just as passionate, if not even more than him about games. Stop bitchin dude, and start polycountin!
Edit: Oh yeah, I work at Best Buy too, I bet he doesn't have to deal with that type of job all day, but I am doing what I need to in order to get by and strive for a full time gig.
Youre damn straight im in the same boat u r. Doing freelance also, yet im not bitching and im getting better a better at my 3d work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheez
Personally, I think the greatest thing you gain from any school, really, is not so much instructors (cant think of a single teacher in all my education that really impacted on me) as is classmates and, hopefully, facilities. I didn't really learn all that much from teachers, but an absolute shitload from my fellow classmates. Provided, of course, you have competent classmates :P
I suggest that you even go past this, compare yourself against other students? Why, they are not the ones you will be competiting against, but the professionals that are already working in the field that you want to go into. I have my students each week, find one artist and three of there works to share with the class, not only to build up there inspiration folder ( and mine:)) But to also make them get off there asses to see what is coming there way. I think that if this artist in question had done something similiar, he would have given up long ago. And yes still getting inspiration from someone in your class, or even learning from is important, but with the internet at your fingertips you have a world wide class of competent classmates:)
I think this is significant. When I was in school, one of the factors that pushed my craft the most was the constant comparisons with my contemporaries. My teachers would always have the class evaluate each piece vocally. Few things are harsher than having all your fellow students tear your work to shreds with their minds. It made you keenly aware of what to look for and what to work on. Facilities are also a plus. My college had only one copy of Lightwave, and they lost the dongle three weeks into my first semester. So sad.
This was one big thing that was missing from my time spent at UAT. There was little to no feedback amongst peers. No time spent with the entire class critiquing each others work. Luckily I had this kind of exposure in High School art class as well as in ~2 years of art classes at the local community college.
It's alot easier to grow when you've got lots of useful feedback. You need to be able to talk about your work and the process you went to get there. Just twiddling off on your own in silence will only make you better in your mind.
I believe that a new studio should take some risk to recruit hungry and fresh outsiders
The industry is its called Outsourcing to China or maybe India, Poland or Indonesia. But whatever you want to call it - thousands of game development jobs are going overseas. If anything the industry is getting harder to break into because theres fewer jobs available onsite at most Game Companies. You have compete for the diminishing number of entry level jobs thats out there.
Ok enough snotyness from me I couldnt help myself. You do need a good shake from people in the industry though. Clearly your professors werent heavy handed with you when some tough love would have gone a long way to preparing you for the reality of the real world of game development. The best instructors Ive had worked hard to make some students cry to just give them a taste of the brutality they may face. Even these actions were just a vague friendly shadow of the reality of how tough Game Development and frankly, the whole Art field really is.
There are a lot of basic entry level opportunities out there and paid/unpaid internships in Game Studios. Over the years Ive helped interns get rolling gave pointers and doled out tasks they could chew on without endangering whatever project I was on. However, there are literally hundreds of starry eyed men and women trying to land those positions. Your classmates and the graduating classes of other colleges all going for those posts. If youre not at the top of your class, the odds of you getting into this industry are slim. Its survival of the fittest. Plain and simple.
Expect a phone call back? Dont . If you get called its because someone on the team wants you, They want you bad enough to drop what theyre doing and believe me theyre insanely busy. If every HR person or guy on a team who was doing the hiring called back every passionate applicant and spoke for just 15 minutes and gave a critique theyd spend their whole career doing that Some companies like Blizzard get so swamped that they have to put up a courteous website with information about what you need to do to get a job.
Look on the bright side. You claim a burning passion. Thats good! Put down your game controller, box up your console and spend your evenings doing art. Keep at it for the next 10 years. Day and Night. Stay on top of tips ,techniques and spend time talking to guys who do this stuff as a living. Most are quite friendly on boards and things. Most Game Developers are surprisingly helpful because they all started from the ground up too and they all share a passion- er insanity for developing games.. There are plenty of tutorials on the web by guys who do the real work. Keep at it till you succeed. Stay with your burning passion. Think Im kidding Im not. Other guys will be doing this. Your passion and dedication must be as strong as theirs. If you can run with the pack of hard core artist then someday youll get in.
Between school and my own time after college - I spent about 8 years training and buffing up before I started getting phone calls from big companies like Blizzard & EA, Even after my career is started I have to train and keep sharpening my skills. Even after spending an average 60 hours a week doing the job I have to keep doing art to ensure that Im attractive to employers. When I sleep, I dream about the work Im doing and dream about using the tools. Im not exaggerating. When you go out there you will be competing with guys as dedicated heck more dedicated than I.
Dont want to do that want some easy road to success. Sorry dude but it doesnt work that way for most Game Artists. Its all about hard work and developing a life time of dedication to the Art.
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Personally, I've always had issues with the idea of a fine arts diploma. You can be exposed to the theory and philosophy and history of art, but none of that is going to make you a good painter in and of itself. For that, you need to paint, and you need to do it a hell of a lot more than school studio classes could provide.
Anyway, I think that if the school is marketing itself as a curriculum that places graduates in game industry jobs, it's seriously at fault for misrepresenting that. But I think it's just as much a fault of a student of any art who thinks getting a diploma is substitute for ability. That's not true in any field, but doubly so in a creative one. If you don't notice until your last year of college that your technical skills are crap, it's just as much your failure as it is the university's.
And this guy is telling the world he knows his portfolio isn't very competitive.
Yet, instead of thinking, "Maybe I should improve my portfolio," he instead thinks, "The system is broken! Revolution! Up with the fresh hungry neophytes! Look, I have passion too!"
(This problem exists in other industries as well. Writing is another notable place where people get rejected and then accuse the system of being broken, or better still, run by a power-hungry cabal of publishers.)
Anyway, I think he's confusing his passion with playing video games for a creative passion. If he was truly creative or passionate, I can't help thinking that his portfolio would reflect that instead being bland and uninspiring and rather incompetently executed. I didn't see one item in his portfolio that would lead me to believe he played or loved a video game. Nothing that says, "Hey, I made a concept for Diablo or a mod for Civ or NWN...." Nothing.
All the devs I know are workaholics who keep outside projects on their plates. They enter things like 11 second club or model favourite characters from old cartoons...that sort of thing. You can tell what they love. It's all over their portfolio, it's on their desks at home, it permeates their lives.
I feel bad for the guy, but if he's really passionate, hopefully he'll get off his arse and work on improving his stuff.
Man, 3D Effects for Games was brutal. I'm giving it in this summer, didn't even bother with it during the year.
but yes, though also it's a downer when you have to bullshit your way through a 4000 word essay on European post-war fellinism and what that piece "emotes"....lame
you have these 55yr old tutors teaching "new media" course as part as a compulsory elective, still quoting some fucker lev manovich, and saying that we can't reference anything outside of the archaic and pompous "gamestudies" site - which again has 60 year olds posting invalid articles about 'game studies'......meh after three years i'm kinda upset about the uni bureaucracy, and the fact that the main animation labs are still using half-assed linuxes!!
anywayyy, with these theory based courses, i think the networking, and deep thinking and self-motivation that you get from going to uni (like thematic projects) outways my attendence at a dullish tech course where everyones end of your 'portfolio' has a generic morph target (lip synching) animation.uggggh.
Totally agree with this.
The program I'm in at the moment is well.. somewhat of a joke. I'm pulling nearly straight A's without even trying. Its sad, but it gives me time to work on things outside of school and work, that can help me portfolio wise later.
While the program itself isn't tremendously useful to me in terms of professional development, I'm somewhat happy to be there, if nothing else than to share a lot of the technical information from here and my own research etc, with a load of people who largely haven't a clue, and haven't figured out where to look. Still going to write a semi-rebuttal Op-Ed piece and hope they publish it. Another perspective is needed, especially if anyone reads that article without reading the assorted forum discussions surrounding it.
If you know how to write, it doesnt automatically make you a great writer. If you know how to make 3d assets, it doesnt automatically make you a great 3d artist.
So because his work isn't good enough for the current gen, it'd be a shoe-in for older tech? I couldn't disagree more. He lacks any skill in texturing, and I see no reason to believe he could achieve great results with low polycounts. You've never struck me as a particularly troll-ish or stupid person, so I'll reserve my 'bollocks, what a pointless comment', but you can see how that's not entirely correct, right?
got my degree show in a week its kinda strange I want to make sure people know that the work I display is mine and is not the result of any kind of standardised educational program. The lecturers wont ever have even seen alot of my work.
Too bad he has neither.
hahaha are you serious? why exactly are YOU on such a school? honestly you could teach there...
haha, funny thing is that it seems like lowbudget studios on wii and ds (but not exclusively) usually end up with that kind of people, since "obviously" lowpoly is easier to make better looking.
Seing alot of the lowpoly stuff on here, it makes me realize ds and wii games should look way better than they do
but its the dumpinggrounds for cheap workers.
Think he meant he went there to teach once a month tho? If not.. agreed!
Still got my shitty piece of paper too! Albeit it isnt as pretty haha.
But alas, people just like him are what every (EVERY) university is after these days, there not after people who will get their eitherway, there after the braindead ignorant.
This guy's port just seems like a bunch of random stuff... there's no soul, no expression in it... they just look like he's following instructions to complete a task. There's nothing extra anywhere on that port to say that he'd be willing to go that extra bit to make it look good.
Not that I'm not guilty of similar things along the vein, but I know when I have to step it up to make a good impression. Everyone needs to know their limitations and when to push to succeed... this guy just seems to be coasting.
As a Student of Spark, I have to say it fucking sucks, and its hard. But damnit we need more teachers like him, because people in schools like mine now a days get away with way too much! Then they end up like this guy, but are clueless as to why they ended up that way!
The truth is, the people that open these schools don't open them for the benefit of the gaming/art/3D industry, in fact most of them don't know anything about the industry at all! What they know is that gaming is popular, and it will make them money.
So if your passing the class your paying for it, and if your paying for it they make money, and when you realise that you graduated but you learned nothing, they walk away with all your money and say ok good luck out there.
Im not saying its that extreme everywhere you go, but that kind of corporate pressure to make and turn a profit is everywhere, and in an industry like this it is prime for corruption, because honestly the only standards you are held to is that people are entertained, its not like your being trained to save someones life here, in the end its all about the money.
Isn't that how every college/university is? Every one I've been to was like that. A college/university is a business first and foremost. I would imagine that colleges and faculty that put the wellbeing of their particular field above the monetary bottom line are few and far-between.
School can only give you a chance to work on 2 of the three things needed to land a job.
Practice, dedication and a good/great portfolio, which is the proof of the first two.
Heart, soul, creativity, those are nice but not required.
I don't know anything about the "industry," and I'm still a kid, so I can't give any input about that or classes.
Good practice does not make perfect, but it makes improvement. On the other hand, bad practice leads to bad technique. And if you post your practice on a site like this, people can tell you what you do wrong or what you do right, and flesh out the rights and flush down the wrongs
I am thankful for my education but if I would of relied on only my instructors I would have failed miserably and wouldn't have come out of the gates knowing a thing. As with everything in life you get out of things what you truly put in.
This poor guy did not go into it knowing what it would really take and probably thought that what he would be taught would give him the abilities without the practice. I do think he is wrong for writing a negative view towards the gaming industry. he should be sending some of those arrows at the school and instructors then turn the bow on himself and fire the rest of those arrows at himself. I agree the guy should go into writing and maybe his article will help him realize things happen for a reason and that his true path is in the writing field. He can become a game reviewer and still be part of the industry in that capacity..
Remember kids, nothing comes to those who sit and expect things. Things come to those that put in the time and effort to realize their endeavors are the outcome of their true desires.
funny stuff =D
you spend around 1500 on a Intro to Black an White Photography class
And you get learn this,
how you a 35mm manual camera correctly
what the different combinations of fstops and shutter speed do to the picture you are take.
how to develop you negative properly
how to print archival photographs
how to use an enlarger
All this in one semester, and you either learn or fail the class, simple as that.
Computer classes 90 % of the time you get this bull
Do a quickie in Photoshop
Do quickie in Illustrator
do final project with photoshop and Illustrator,
Nothing in depth or challenging like you would get with the photography class yet both are intros classes. The main problem is the expectations set by the Art department. In the Photo class the lazy students knew that if they didn't do goo d work they would fail, in the computer class they knew it was coffee shop time.
Why this is, I don't know but it drove me nuts when I was in school. There was never enough time to learn or do any good projects, and the professors didn't care.
I suppose that's true... working for 2 years in the tv animation industry sapped my heart and soul away that I turned into an automaton that bent over on request.
I'd like to add that I got that gig cause I was good enough at the right moment in time that they needed someone at the studio (middle of my last year at school) I think they needed 12 for the night shift, they interviewed 10 from my school and hired 6.
While the others who were more skilled decided not to apply because they wanted to finish school first, I decided I had nothing to lose and it was a chance to jump ahead of portfolios I knew were stronger than mine.
But yes vig, you're absolutely right, you don't need any of those I listed, just a proficiency in producing quality work.
I get the feeling though (along with a bunch of others who have mentioned it) that his program is a cash cow program, designed to sucker people into handing over their money. It's not to say though, that even with their minimal training, that you can't put more into it than they expect of you, to get your work that much better.
You can't get away with doing bare minimum all the time.
Vig has a point, practice and dedication will take you far further than raw tallent and creativity. Lets face it people, 3d artists who make it into the industry seldom get the chance to show creativity, you make what you are told to make and you make it on time. Most people wanting to get into the industry are in love with an idea and like most ideas things are never quite like you imagine.
This guys portfolio looks like someone did a bunch of free tutorials (badly) in an afternoon and put the result into a portfolio. There is literaly nothing in there that tells me he has had any training at all. If this is what graduates from art schools then I am so happy I never wasted my hard earned cash on going to one.
I've done both for an extended period of time. Statement is fail.
Your probably just unlucky.
Hey I resent that, there are some cool girls out there ok, just dont freak out and everything will be fine, just like normal ppl socialize..but oh yeah I forget I go to a game school....
I can sympathize with how the guy has no idea what quality work should be however. Having crappy arts is one thing, but I really think every school should at least make their students understand what "good acceptable" arts are... I had a few friends that graduated from AAU, completely crappy port folio but the teacher/director still let them out with praises. Really confusing. I heard some story too that a few instructor at AAU got in trouble because they criticized students assignment too harsh, I guess it's one reason instructor just praise their students now.
I used to study Architect and we got really harsh critique. My instructor really tore our projects to shit, picking on every errors pointing out every bad little spot. It was really depressing. But once you graduate out into real world, that's exactly what you'll get from your clients/boss. The cold hard truth are important to get used to.
But on the other hand, I can't bring myself to dole out sympathy for someone who is not willing to put in the requisite legwork. I went to a liberal-arts college and got a well-rounded education with a major in Graphic Design. I may not be the best at what I do, but I'm good enough to stay consistently employed in the design industry. And even though 3D modeling is just a hobby for me, I've taught myself everything I know about it. I've never taken a single class or had any formal training, and I'd still put my 3D work up against that guy's efforts any day of the week. And I know there are quite a few other board members here like me.
Passion and enthusiasm are well and good. But you would imagine that genuine passion would translate into a desire for practice and disciplined effort. When I get psyched about a project, I roll up my sleeves and get busy. The opportunity in the industry is actually expanding as of late, and that trend is likely to continue. Even if opportunity knocks, you still have to get your lazy ass off the sofa and answer the door.
The problem I have with that line is that If you do the math on his individual piece time estimates, this kid has a weekends work to show for what, a 2, 3 year course? Everybody I know that is exceptional or even good in this field, got there through a lot of hard work and self training, whether naturally gifted or not. No sympathy here.
Quoted for truth. I remember busting my ass off in school, the highlight being a week long stint in the lab without going home (or even showering, if I recall, ugh). Sure I was stinky and my socks peeled off at the end, but it payed off in my demo reel and I landed a job as soon as I graduated. Personally, I think the greatest thing you gain from any school, really, is not so much instructors (cant think of a single teacher in all my education that really impacted on me) as is classmates and, hopefully, facilities. I didn't really learn all that much from teachers, but an absolute shitload from my fellow classmates. Provided, of course, you have competent classmates :P
I think this is significant. When I was in school, one of the factors that pushed my craft the most was the constant comparisons with my contemporaries. My teachers would always have the class evaluate each piece vocally. Few things are harsher than having all your fellow students tear your work to shreds with their minds. It made you keenly aware of what to look for and what to work on. Facilities are also a plus. My college had only one copy of Lightwave, and they lost the dongle three weeks into my first semester. So sad.
Youre damn straight im in the same boat u r. Doing freelance also, yet im not bitching and im getting better a better at my 3d work.
Originally Posted by Cheez
Personally, I think the greatest thing you gain from any school, really, is not so much instructors (cant think of a single teacher in all my education that really impacted on me) as is classmates and, hopefully, facilities. I didn't really learn all that much from teachers, but an absolute shitload from my fellow classmates. Provided, of course, you have competent classmates :P
I suggest that you even go past this, compare yourself against other students? Why, they are not the ones you will be competiting against, but the professionals that are already working in the field that you want to go into. I have my students each week, find one artist and three of there works to share with the class, not only to build up there inspiration folder ( and mine:)) But to also make them get off there asses to see what is coming there way. I think that if this artist in question had done something similiar, he would have given up long ago. And yes still getting inspiration from someone in your class, or even learning from is important, but with the internet at your fingertips you have a world wide class of competent classmates:)
Spark
It's alot easier to grow when you've got lots of useful feedback. You need to be able to talk about your work and the process you went to get there. Just twiddling off on your own in silence will only make you better in your mind.
The industry is its called Outsourcing to China or maybe India, Poland or Indonesia. But whatever you want to call it - thousands of game development jobs are going overseas. If anything the industry is getting harder to break into because theres fewer jobs available onsite at most Game Companies. You have compete for the diminishing number of entry level jobs thats out there.
Ok enough snotyness from me I couldnt help myself. You do need a good shake from people in the industry though. Clearly your professors werent heavy handed with you when some tough love would have gone a long way to preparing you for the reality of the real world of game development. The best instructors Ive had worked hard to make some students cry to just give them a taste of the brutality they may face. Even these actions were just a vague friendly shadow of the reality of how tough Game Development and frankly, the whole Art field really is.
There are a lot of basic entry level opportunities out there and paid/unpaid internships in Game Studios. Over the years Ive helped interns get rolling gave pointers and doled out tasks they could chew on without endangering whatever project I was on. However, there are literally hundreds of starry eyed men and women trying to land those positions. Your classmates and the graduating classes of other colleges all going for those posts. If youre not at the top of your class, the odds of you getting into this industry are slim. Its survival of the fittest. Plain and simple.
Expect a phone call back? Dont . If you get called its because someone on the team wants you, They want you bad enough to drop what theyre doing and believe me theyre insanely busy. If every HR person or guy on a team who was doing the hiring called back every passionate applicant and spoke for just 15 minutes and gave a critique theyd spend their whole career doing that Some companies like Blizzard get so swamped that they have to put up a courteous website with information about what you need to do to get a job.
Look on the bright side. You claim a burning passion. Thats good! Put down your game controller, box up your console and spend your evenings doing art. Keep at it for the next 10 years. Day and Night. Stay on top of tips ,techniques and spend time talking to guys who do this stuff as a living. Most are quite friendly on boards and things. Most Game Developers are surprisingly helpful because they all started from the ground up too and they all share a passion- er insanity for developing games.. There are plenty of tutorials on the web by guys who do the real work. Keep at it till you succeed. Stay with your burning passion. Think Im kidding Im not. Other guys will be doing this. Your passion and dedication must be as strong as theirs. If you can run with the pack of hard core artist then someday youll get in.
Between school and my own time after college - I spent about 8 years training and buffing up before I started getting phone calls from big companies like Blizzard & EA, Even after my career is started I have to train and keep sharpening my skills. Even after spending an average 60 hours a week doing the job I have to keep doing art to ensure that Im attractive to employers. When I sleep, I dream about the work Im doing and dream about using the tools. Im not exaggerating. When you go out there you will be competing with guys as dedicated heck more dedicated than I.
Dont want to do that want some easy road to success. Sorry dude but it doesnt work that way for most Game Artists. Its all about hard work and developing a life time of dedication to the Art.
Good Luck,
Cathat
a fine art degree and 2 years passing my polycount diploma did me in better stead than alot of people that did game dev courses
I can read it fine now actually...