i'm pretty stoked about the DW finally being here again, i guess the only thing i mind are the seemingly arbitrary stipulations on presenting concepts--why does the thumbnail sheet have to be single color or grayscale, if that's not how somebody works?
[ QUOTE ]
i'm pretty stoked about the DW finally being here again, i guess the only thing i mind are the seemingly arbitrary stipulations on presenting concepts--why does the thumbnail sheet have to be single color or grayscale, if that's not how somebody works?
but fools can't keep us down. time to get rockin'
[/ QUOTE ]
'cause single color concepts are Pro. quit being a hack and using all those colors.
[ QUOTE ]
that's not much arsh, some characters i know are like 42 billion tris, they probably look a few billion times better too
[/ QUOTE ]
hahahaha, your right!!! i have noticed that for each polygon added the model becomes one more factor of awesome! but i was hoping the dom war might be a nice break from work, it seems like its going to be more work on top of the work i already have.. i want to enter but with production ramping up its going to be a total maybe from me. i cant even think about it until after gdc. of course there are no rules against making something lower than the specs given, so i might try and do a half spec entry.
The 9000 tris are for everything on your pedestal. Which means if you were doing something like a necromancer, the necromancer could have 5000 tris, his artifact 500, and you could have a skeleton and a zombie each with 1750 tris.
[ QUOTE ]
The 9000 tris are for everything on your pedestal. Which means if you were doing something like a necromancer, the necromancer could have 5000 tris, his artifact 500, and you could have a skeleton and a zombie each with 1750 tris.
[/ QUOTE ]
speaking of pedestals, can we rely on some of the awesome environemt artists around here to make some for us to use? Or would that count as having a team?
[ QUOTE ]
rooster, i bet someone could make it with some simple tools and a LOT of time, patience, and precision.
[/ QUOTE ]
There are actually tribesman in Pakistan (or Afghanistan, forget which) that make knockoffs of guns with only rough machining tools. AKs, M-16s, whatever it is they'll make a functional replica, even if it's not as good.
So yeah, handguns, and even cannons should be just fine, since those don't really require any electronics to make or function. And there would probably be alot of leftovers around from per-magical times that the people of future-verse could reverse engineer using basic tech. So really it shouldn't be a problem to have big beefy guys running around with an m-4 in one hand and a big bertha strapped to their backs.
Then again, perhaps not, because then steam engines and such should also be allowed, but they aren't. I think that part of the prompt needs revision actually. Either allow things that could be made with early industrial processes and which don't require any electronics, or don't allow any tech of any kind past swords and such. Basically, either gears, joints, valves and other such mechanical things work, or they don't
Rules have changed again. Still sort of suck shader-wise, but better than they were. But I'm done arguing with those pricks, anyone who knows what they are talking about in the debate don't have any response and at this point no one is going to bother reading any of the old posts that explain the good points.
Oh well I'm going to go ahead with my plan anyway, if I get DQ'd I get DQ'd.
"For all final images, all shaders that ship with UT3, HL2, Crysis, idTech4 and Xnormal are allowed. Standard, non node-based shaders within Max, Maya, and XSI are allowed. No manual HLSL editing via code, and no node-based shader creation."
Don't see why the new rules are suck. Allowing you to use current-gen game engines to render out your winning pose is pretty much perfect. It is a game art challenge after all.
I just need to confirm whether I can use marmoset or not.
defacto: because, according to the rules, you can't use marmoset. The rules are still completely arbitrary and pointless. At least now they give leeway for flexing them more. This is a game art challenge, exactly: why can't I use all aspects of game art (and anyone who considers shaders not part of art is a downright fool)? Anyway, following the thread since the rule change, still no one has made any argument for the current rules. In fact, the staff seems intent on not really discussing anything but handing out decrees. Oh well.
BTW, polycount, since I know you will start sculpting in a little bit, here is Arsh's Basemesh with CrypticAR, so you can scale and whatnot before you bring it into zbrush (thanks to Arsh for his blessing to put it on my site for upload).
That's awesome Prof420, can't go wrong with arsh's mesh with Cryptic AR. That script totally blows biped out of the water for standard human rigs. Unfortunately I will not be making a standard human But thanks for the offering!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BTW, polycount, since I know you will start sculpting in a little bit, here is Arsh's Basemesh
[/ QUOTE ]
"All sketches, ideas, concepts, models, 3d meshes etc must be made specifically for this competition." :P
[/ QUOTE ]
Right, and we can only use 'standard' shaders. :P Mere coincidence, my last post, not saying I'm using or encouraging you all to use anything. I'm _surely_ not using it for my human.
And BTW, just so no one thinks I'm being an ungrateful prick in my earlier post: I do appreciate what Fred is doing. I've been in the position of organizing community events, though nothing on the scale of Dom War, but it doesn't give him or me or anyone a free pass to do what they want. Fact is, a very significant portion of people are complaining, and even more importantly, none of the issues have been addressed by the Staff. Thanks to those putting the contest on, but honestly, there is obviously a problem given the situation. The tricount limit was changed relatively quickly, I would guess largely because Fred, and everyone else, understand the idea of a tricount and what it does. I think the main reason people are fine with the current rules is because they are ignorant of what the discussion is about; most of all much of the Staff, who have been almost completely unwilling to rationalize or defend any of their decisions. We (the complainers) are trying to make the competition better for quite a minimal effort and investment, and I think those of you that think differently are quite mistaken.
I know I would love to have refractions and iridiscence on my character. But the way I see it, you can use a combination of the maps allowed to hack/fake pretty much any type of basic surface. If you think a majority of the entries are going to benefit from custom shaders or even use them to successfully execute their designs, you are mistaken. :-)
profesor420, fred and the DW staff have been busy clarifying the shader rule. The reason for the quick change on the tri count was likely due to it not needing much work to translate. Clarifying the brief on the other hand involves the coordination of the translators--hence the hesitancy to change things and the time spent deliberating on what to change them to.
As a someone who's never worked on anything even approaching a next gen game, I don't really understand all this shader malarky.
What exactly are we talking about here and more importantly, is it going to make enough difference for me to spend precious art-making time trying to get my head around Unreal Ed 3.
[ QUOTE ]
As a someone who's never worked on anything even approaching a next gen game...is it going to make enough difference for me to spend precious art-making time trying to get my head around Unreal Ed 3.
[/ QUOTE ]
No. Just use colour/spec/normal/whatever as usual.
Prof420: In regards to the complaints, the problem arises that people complain and nitpick about absolutely everything in the thought that it will make things better.
I've yet to see a competition brief go up where everyone goes "YAY A BRIEF lets work!" most of the time its a whole lot of "why can't we have this? or I wanted to do X, its not fair." Heck even the occasional low spec comps get complaints all the time "you have a 128 tex and 500 triangles" "Why not a 256 and 650? We can do so much more with that!"
I also think that some of the restrictions here make for a better competition. It isn't indicative of every aspect of game art, no. But it does provide a framework by which to judge who is a better artist in terms of design and presentation over a fairly level field.
On the one hand its disappointing to not be able to create our own shaders, but on the other hand, Its not like each character made for Unreal Tournament or any other game gets their own custom shader either. They tend to re-use the same shader with value and variable alterations for efficiency sake, so why not take that as the argument for no custom jobs?
just a thought.
Edit: oh and extraordinarily awesome Gauss. Desktopped too.
[ QUOTE ]
As a someone who's never worked on anything even approaching a next gen game, I don't really understand all this shader malarky.
What exactly are we talking about here and more importantly, is it going to make enough difference for me to spend precious art-making time trying to get my head around Unreal Ed 3.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're missing the point, the problem was a lack of clarification on the subject. Since you have absolutely no experience, it would be akin to saying "You can use polygons, but only the standard ones that come with max." instead of an actual polygon limit.
Do you need to do anything but the bare min to get by? No of course not, hell you dont even need to use normals or spec at all. Should that mean everyone else should do the same as you and be completely ignorant as to what the rules specifically allow?
Its really simple, if i was to able to use say, image based environment lighting(which is a pretty common shader these days) the way i create my specular maps would be totally different. This stuff matters, and its not surprising that the only people being vocal about *not changing anything* are the ones who also have absolutly *no experince* dealing with these things.
Also, ZARDOZZZZZZZZZZZ
ps: needs more Sean Connery rape.
from per on GA, for anyone who hasnet seen it
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry to have contributed to something that has since gotten out of hand, with a lot of foolish statements. I'll try to put some of the worries to rest in a clear internet-friendly manner:
-You don't need any shader writing skills.
-If you have the most basic knowledge of what kind of shaders are employed in games these days, you're fine.
-That knowledge is obligatory for game artists anyway, so if nothing else, this is your chance to learn.
-Fredh has opened up the shader rules to let you use typical game shaders. Now common sense dictates the restrictions, rather than harsh limiters.
-The whole shader issue was about the winning pose only.
-If you still have worries about your lack of shader knowledge, let me remind you that the beauty shot can employ even MORE complex shaders and effects, so why aren't you worried about that?
-If other people use "fancy" shaders, you will see what they do in their WIP thread. There's nothing stopping you from doing the exact same thing, so please relax.
For all of you complaining specs are too high and that you don't know shaders and so on: Welcome to the reality of game art production.
Saying there's more skill involved in using low specs is patently moronic. However you twist and bend it, all that's limited by specs is the potential of your output. As the Quake3 days washed over, we had the people saying 800tris was more than enough for a character. A few years ago we had those who were claiming normal maps to be a fad and that hand-painting flat textures required more skill somehow. You're only letting your own insecurities and lack of abilities show when you display fear of rising up to the challenge and working on the cutting edge. 9000 tris for a major boss character is relatively low. You may have noticed that in games recently characters actually look smooth, round and detailed as opposed to something ripped out of WOW. I can only say, in the most soothing of voices: Get with the times, dear friend.
That was the long version, here's the short one: If you can "squeeze the best" out of 5.000 tris, you can bloody well "squeeze the best" out of 20.000 too.
Thanks FredH for changing the rules to be much more in tune with what games are actually doing. This is proof that it actually helps for a group of people to get together and act like asshole know-it-alls
As I see it now, the rules are open, fair and forgiving. Time to get busy with actual entries, fools!
Valias: see EQ's response, and any of his posts in the GA thread. It wasn't about restrictions for most of us, it was about the impossibility of the rules... I proposed numerous ways to actually standardize it (provide screenshots of material setups for the winning pose, volunteered to set up a standardized DomWar3 viewer so all winning poses were viewed in the same app), finally they changed the rules. It wasn't about nitpicking, it was about the absurdity of the brief. It was like saying "You must use box modeling." For people that design shaders and art together, that is, like wtf? I have a certain way I make art that follows my strengths, I know how to model a certain way, why are the rules arbitrarily prohibiting that? Is it more fair if everyone has to box model? The rules were made by people that don't understand or see the value in shaders, they've responded to few or none of the arguments against the rules, and they hand down a really half-assed and just as confusing decision. Tell me, why even bother making the restriction? It doesn't make judging easier, it doesn't make the playing field any more level (after all, these are just techniques used to make art). No reason, just ignorance.
Edit: And apathy and deference to moderators who, of course, inherently know better than the members regarding everything.
Professor: I'm not really seeing the problem. From my understanding it's basically allowed if it's realtime and uses the maps presented. I could be wrong, but if I'm not then that's more than enough, and gives you plenty of wiggle room.
And hell, if you've got UT3 you can throw together all sorts of kickass shaders in there, so why worry?
Replies
but fools can't keep us down. time to get rockin'
i'm pretty stoked about the DW finally being here again, i guess the only thing i mind are the seemingly arbitrary stipulations on presenting concepts--why does the thumbnail sheet have to be single color or grayscale, if that's not how somebody works?
but fools can't keep us down. time to get rockin'
[/ QUOTE ]
'cause single color concepts are Pro. quit being a hack and using all those colors.
that's not much arsh, some characters i know are like 42 billion tris, they probably look a few billion times better too
[/ QUOTE ]
hahahaha, your right!!! i have noticed that for each polygon added the model becomes one more factor of awesome! but i was hoping the dom war might be a nice break from work, it seems like its going to be more work on top of the work i already have.. i want to enter but with production ramping up its going to be a total maybe from me. i cant even think about it until after gdc. of course there are no rules against making something lower than the specs given, so i might try and do a half spec entry.
electricity is not required to make a hand gun
[/ QUOTE ]
eh?? could we make a desert eagle without various machines and power tools etc etc..
its fun to bicker! I'm hyped really
The 9000 tris are for everything on your pedestal. Which means if you were doing something like a necromancer, the necromancer could have 5000 tris, his artifact 500, and you could have a skeleton and a zombie each with 1750 tris.
[/ QUOTE ]
speaking of pedestals, can we rely on some of the awesome environemt artists around here to make some for us to use? Or would that count as having a team?
rooster, i bet someone could make it with some simple tools and a LOT of time, patience, and precision.
[/ QUOTE ]
There are actually tribesman in Pakistan (or Afghanistan, forget which) that make knockoffs of guns with only rough machining tools. AKs, M-16s, whatever it is they'll make a functional replica, even if it's not as good.
So yeah, handguns, and even cannons should be just fine, since those don't really require any electronics to make or function. And there would probably be alot of leftovers around from per-magical times that the people of future-verse could reverse engineer using basic tech. So really it shouldn't be a problem to have big beefy guys running around with an m-4 in one hand and a big bertha strapped to their backs.
Then again, perhaps not, because then steam engines and such should also be allowed, but they aren't. I think that part of the prompt needs revision actually. Either allow things that could be made with early industrial processes and which don't require any electronics, or don't allow any tech of any kind past swords and such. Basically, either gears, joints, valves and other such mechanical things work, or they don't
Oh well I'm going to go ahead with my plan anyway, if I get DQ'd I get DQ'd.
Rules have changed again.
[/ QUOTE ]
"For all final images, all shaders that ship with UT3, HL2, Crysis, idTech4 and Xnormal are allowed. Standard, non node-based shaders within Max, Maya, and XSI are allowed. No manual HLSL editing via code, and no node-based shader creation."
Which is really a moot point. After the Chinese are done with us there won't be any asses on either side left to be kicked.
Still sort of suck shader-wise
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't see why the new rules are suck. Allowing you to use current-gen game engines to render out your winning pose is pretty much perfect. It is a game art challenge after all.
I just need to confirm whether I can use marmoset or not.
BTW, polycount, since I know you will start sculpting in a little bit, here is Arsh's Basemesh with CrypticAR, so you can scale and whatnot before you bring it into zbrush (thanks to Arsh for his blessing to put it on my site for upload).
http://www.robg3d.com/downloads.html#ArchCryptic
BTW, polycount, since I know you will start sculpting in a little bit, here is Arsh's Basemesh
[/ QUOTE ]
"All sketches, ideas, concepts, models, 3d meshes etc must be made specifically for this competition." :P
[ QUOTE ]
BTW, polycount, since I know you will start sculpting in a little bit, here is Arsh's Basemesh
[/ QUOTE ]
"All sketches, ideas, concepts, models, 3d meshes etc must be made specifically for this competition." :P
[/ QUOTE ]
Right, and we can only use 'standard' shaders. :P Mere coincidence, my last post, not saying I'm using or encouraging you all to use anything. I'm _surely_ not using it for my human.
And BTW, just so no one thinks I'm being an ungrateful prick in my earlier post: I do appreciate what Fred is doing. I've been in the position of organizing community events, though nothing on the scale of Dom War, but it doesn't give him or me or anyone a free pass to do what they want. Fact is, a very significant portion of people are complaining, and even more importantly, none of the issues have been addressed by the Staff. Thanks to those putting the contest on, but honestly, there is obviously a problem given the situation. The tricount limit was changed relatively quickly, I would guess largely because Fred, and everyone else, understand the idea of a tricount and what it does. I think the main reason people are fine with the current rules is because they are ignorant of what the discussion is about; most of all much of the Staff, who have been almost completely unwilling to rationalize or defend any of their decisions. We (the complainers) are trying to make the competition better for quite a minimal effort and investment, and I think those of you that think differently are quite mistaken.
i like to think this is how the polycount army gets their artifacts. ZARDOZ-style.
as per request, 1920x1200 size. any other sizes you can make yourself, buster
http://gausswerks.com/war/greentoothartifact_1920.jpg
i like to think this is how the polycount army gets their artifacts. ZARDOZ-style.
[/ QUOTE ]
PENIS EVIL! GUN GOOD!
http://gausswerks.com/war/greentoothartifact_1920.jpg
What exactly are we talking about here and more importantly, is it going to make enough difference for me to spend precious art-making time trying to get my head around Unreal Ed 3.
As a someone who's never worked on anything even approaching a next gen game...is it going to make enough difference for me to spend precious art-making time trying to get my head around Unreal Ed 3.
[/ QUOTE ]
No. Just use colour/spec/normal/whatever as usual.
I've yet to see a competition brief go up where everyone goes "YAY A BRIEF lets work!" most of the time its a whole lot of "why can't we have this? or I wanted to do X, its not fair." Heck even the occasional low spec comps get complaints all the time "you have a 128 tex and 500 triangles" "Why not a 256 and 650? We can do so much more with that!"
I also think that some of the restrictions here make for a better competition. It isn't indicative of every aspect of game art, no. But it does provide a framework by which to judge who is a better artist in terms of design and presentation over a fairly level field.
On the one hand its disappointing to not be able to create our own shaders, but on the other hand, Its not like each character made for Unreal Tournament or any other game gets their own custom shader either. They tend to re-use the same shader with value and variable alterations for efficiency sake, so why not take that as the argument for no custom jobs?
just a thought.
Edit: oh and extraordinarily awesome Gauss. Desktopped too.
My new background, baby!
-caseyjones
As a someone who's never worked on anything even approaching a next gen game, I don't really understand all this shader malarky.
What exactly are we talking about here and more importantly, is it going to make enough difference for me to spend precious art-making time trying to get my head around Unreal Ed 3.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're missing the point, the problem was a lack of clarification on the subject. Since you have absolutely no experience, it would be akin to saying "You can use polygons, but only the standard ones that come with max." instead of an actual polygon limit.
Do you need to do anything but the bare min to get by? No of course not, hell you dont even need to use normals or spec at all. Should that mean everyone else should do the same as you and be completely ignorant as to what the rules specifically allow?
Its really simple, if i was to able to use say, image based environment lighting(which is a pretty common shader these days) the way i create my specular maps would be totally different. This stuff matters, and its not surprising that the only people being vocal about *not changing anything* are the ones who also have absolutly *no experince* dealing with these things.
Also, ZARDOZZZZZZZZZZZ
ps: needs more Sean Connery rape.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry to have contributed to something that has since gotten out of hand, with a lot of foolish statements. I'll try to put some of the worries to rest in a clear internet-friendly manner:
-You don't need any shader writing skills.
-If you have the most basic knowledge of what kind of shaders are employed in games these days, you're fine.
-That knowledge is obligatory for game artists anyway, so if nothing else, this is your chance to learn.
-Fredh has opened up the shader rules to let you use typical game shaders. Now common sense dictates the restrictions, rather than harsh limiters.
-The whole shader issue was about the winning pose only.
-If you still have worries about your lack of shader knowledge, let me remind you that the beauty shot can employ even MORE complex shaders and effects, so why aren't you worried about that?
-If other people use "fancy" shaders, you will see what they do in their WIP thread. There's nothing stopping you from doing the exact same thing, so please relax.
For all of you complaining specs are too high and that you don't know shaders and so on: Welcome to the reality of game art production.
Saying there's more skill involved in using low specs is patently moronic. However you twist and bend it, all that's limited by specs is the potential of your output. As the Quake3 days washed over, we had the people saying 800tris was more than enough for a character. A few years ago we had those who were claiming normal maps to be a fad and that hand-painting flat textures required more skill somehow. You're only letting your own insecurities and lack of abilities show when you display fear of rising up to the challenge and working on the cutting edge. 9000 tris for a major boss character is relatively low. You may have noticed that in games recently characters actually look smooth, round and detailed as opposed to something ripped out of WOW. I can only say, in the most soothing of voices: Get with the times, dear friend.
That was the long version, here's the short one: If you can "squeeze the best" out of 5.000 tris, you can bloody well "squeeze the best" out of 20.000 too.
Thanks FredH for changing the rules to be much more in tune with what games are actually doing. This is proof that it actually helps for a group of people to get together and act like asshole know-it-alls
As I see it now, the rules are open, fair and forgiving. Time to get busy with actual entries, fools!
[/ QUOTE ]
Edit: And apathy and deference to moderators who, of course, inherently know better than the members regarding everything.
wall. paper.
Professor: I'm not really seeing the problem. From my understanding it's basically allowed if it's realtime and uses the maps presented. I could be wrong, but if I'm not then that's more than enough, and gives you plenty of wiggle room.
And hell, if you've got UT3 you can throw together all sorts of kickass shaders in there, so why worry?