Well, why? Why do you need a demonstration? Faith is a big part of Lost - whether that's spiritual faith, faith in humanity or anything else. These characters had faith in something and that drove them to their own actions. If I told you something bad would happen if a giant rock slammed into earth, would you not believe me? Would you need a demonstration of the effects? While I understand that's a quite a literal example dictated by obvious cause/effect outcome, you can see my point.
But a giant rock slamming into the earth is something I understand. I've read evidence that it has happened before, killing all the dinosaurs, and I understand the science of how it could happen again. A better question (to pluck from the show) is if I handed you a small metal box with a button on it and I told you something bad would happen unless you pushed the button every day, would you believe me? Would YOU need an explanation, or are you taking my word that your pressing this mysterious button is the only thing preventing catastrophe?
Pushing the button to prevent disaster is not something I understand. Same goes for guarding the light - I need an explanation.
The characters didn't know any better, so they had to trust what they were told. They had to have faith in these people and believe they were making the right choices as a result.
I don't get that, either. How is trusting people for no reason an example of faith? It used to be that people fell for the Nigerian prince email scams - they didn't know better, and they did what they were told. Is that faith or naivety?
FLocke was obviously a bad entity. I mean, it was a pillar of black smoke for cryin' out loud. A cloud of smoke that routinely went on killing sprees and murdered many people over all six seasons and could take the form of dead people. Is it really be hard to understand why it would be a bad thing for this thing to get off the island?
But here's the thing: why do we know it's bad? Because Jacob said so. And how does he know? Because his 'mom' said so. And who is she?
She's a woman who kills the mother of newborn twins moments after birth. She's a woman who slaughters an entire village without provocation. That's where our good guy, Jacob, gets his information from. That's the source of the Losties' faith, a woman who murders in cold blood. Why would you take the word of this woman, when the only thing you know about her is that she will kill innocents to further her agenda? Can you really say who is obviously a bad entity, when the supposed force for good has so much blood on her hands? FLocke wanted off the island before he was a smoke monster, and it was her denial of his freedom to choose his own path that set the conflict in motion.
Poor FLocke. His true mother was murdered by the woman who raised him, a woman who kept him caged on an island - first by ignorance and then by destroying his only means of escape. He wasn't out to hurt anyone, all he wanted was to leave. It's not evil to want to be free.
Tom... You and I need to stop agreeing with each other. What's going on with that! I liked it better when we were at each other's throats in total disagreement. Hahaha.
I'm with you 100% all the way on this.
I'm actually interested to hear what Per has to say about the finale.
But here's the thing: why do we know it's bad? Because Jacob said so. And how does he know? Because his 'mom' said so. And who is she?
This, for me, was one of the biggest letdowns. Not only the lack of explanation as to who she is, but also the timing of her introduction felt really slap-dash to me.
If she had been introduced even a little earlier, some hint of how she made it so that Jacob and the MiB couldn't kill each other (or leave) and some clue as to what the island is and how it has these mysterious properties would have gone a long way towards making the ending (which I actually enjoyed immensely, btw) a lot more satisfying.
I mean, I could even let some stuff that bugged other people slide, like what the light is and why it's so important it be kept lit, if they'd given us just a little more to chew on with regards to such incredibly important plot devices as to Jacob and the MiB's true origins.
The lostie inside me though still yearns for explanations, but it's quite obvious that the island is magic. The mother uses magic, Jacob and Flocke are protected by magic and can give magic. Men want to find the islands secrets, thats what the whole show ran on. The island had worshippers and enemies.
I don't think we need to know why the island was magic - that would have been disappointing.
The purgatory side universe where the plane never crashed was a bit of an odd side road to go with (as the show doesn't explain how everyone on there died in the real world, but we can only guess the escape plane crashes). Desmond is special because he can see into purgatory, his own afterlife, that much is obvious. The island gave him this magic, just as it gave Locke the ability to walk.
If you look at it, everything is explained right in front of you - just connecting the dots takes time and reflection. As this was explained during 6 years of the show, there is no big reveal. So in that respect, the show ended quite beautifully.
It's not necessarily true that the last plane crashed. In the purgatory world, they all died at various points. For all we know, Hurley and Ben could have been guarding the island for until the end of mankind - but they still died. There's no "now" as Jack's father said, all of them area dead some sooner some later.
I liked the ending. I was actually expecting a much more cliffhangy ending, but I was glad they just said "fuck it, we'll spoon feed you with everything so you get it" because now I will only spend a few days thinking about it. Else I'd have a week of sleepless nights trying to understand something.
I think the best part of the ending, were the final seconds. Jack lying exactly where he was lying in the beginning. I had a flashback to when I started watching Lost for the first time, when it was still about something mysterious and you didn't quite know what was going on, and the nostalgia filled me to be brim. I just sat there for a while, sad that this whole thing ended.
As for good and bad thing - guys I'm pretty sure it was intended that way. Even Evil said it - you can argue about what's good and bad all day and at the end of it nothing is changed. Evil was made, well, evil by the actions of those who tried to protect him and prepare for something greater. Or actually, evil was dormant, but the man who embodied it had the seed of it inside his heart all the time. Aside: The whole Untitled-Jacob thing is like a weird mix between Cain and Abel and Adam and Eve. They were given Eden, but because they were humans, they were curious. God (woman) tries to warn them, but the serpent (humanity) attracts their attention and they learn the evil ways of our true nature. Of course only one of them really embraces this truth and eventually becomes Evil itself as it is consumed by the evil that lives within all of us (kills mother) and makes the goody-shoes Jacob kill him in the Light (forbidden fruit).
Anyway, I think Evil/FakeLocke is evil exactly because it doesn't forgive, and embraces the darker, cruel nature of humanity. Jacob, on the other hand, while largely responsible for this outcome, believes in mankind. He believed that at some point, someone, is going to make the right decisions (right from a moral standpoint) which earns him his "good" title. It may be a dictionary definition of good and evil, but this clearly rebukes the idea that Smokey could have actually been good and etc.
Also,
EDIT: I suppose I can't leave without mentioning things that could have been done better.
I thought the whole island collapsing sequence was a bit pulled. It was violently collapsing at first, but then they needed like an hour for the cliff to collapse. I know why they did it, the characters need time, etc. but it could have been done better imo.
I totally thought Jack was the next Smokey when he appeared outside. Though his final moments were much more gratifying than seeing Jack become a smoke monster embodiment of evil, I was kinda expecting it and it would be at least a little bit of cliffhanging. Of course it wouldn't really fit with happy Jack in paradise, oh well.
A few pages back I saw someone mention Ecko. I loved that guy. Silent, huge, deadly and a fucking priest. He challenged fucking Evil itself, he had fucking balls yo. I wanted to see him too (although admittedly I only remembered about him while reading posts) but his absence can be explained by either:
1) he wasn't ready like Anna-Lucia.
2) the crash wasn't the most memorable and affecting thing that happened to him. He loved his brother the most, so maybe his purgatory wasn't with them.
Last but not least, it's fucking 05:31 am here an I have a math test (like hell I'll be thinking of math tomorrow), but I thought I'd mention the fact that I haven't watched the show in sequence everytime an episode came out. A show as gripping as Lost I can only watch when it's out in full. Perhaps the fact that I watched 4 eps before the 2 ep finale cushioned it slightly. Perhaps a weeklong wait for the final episode would have made me cooler in regards to it.
about Ecko, whom I awlso thought was wicked bad, the reason he wasn't there at the end is the same as the reason he died on the show to begin with, the guy's a dick who wanted off so they killed him and didn't invite him back for the finale.
Stephen King is among the top five best-selling living authors of fiction, and arguably the most notable of them. His storytelling is arresting. You are glued to the page while mysteries unfold and cliffhanger chapter endings keep you hooked.
One of King's vital strengths is his character writing. He often employs the technique of lengthy flashbacks for even secondary and minor characters to get you invested in their situation. Some of his stories have several protagonists; you end up picking your favourite, his survival not being guaranteed fuels suspense.
At the base of Stephen King stories you'll almost exclusively find strong human and realistic tales. Everyday happenings and plights of characters you come to care about; and around the time when you do, supernatural events start occurring. He's got you hooked.
At some point the story will start getting messy, but you're so into the reading that you have faith in a worthy resolution. Several ideas for strong, logical conclusions roam around in your imagination and you assume that the best-selling author and master story-teller will have come up with an even better ending than you, the mere reader.
However, more often than not the stories will end in an absolute disaster of nonsensical rubbish and forced deus ex machina devices. You end up wishing that the telling had been free of supernatural elements as they seem completely unnecessary; teasing with layers of mystery without resolve, ruining what started out as a good character piece. If for some reason, lack of critical abilities being a candidate, a reader does not identify these flaws, there's little to gain from discussing with him. Simply accept that you are at different intellectual levels and leave it at that. If someone identifies the flaws yet instead focuses exclusively on the strengths of the story, then what's there to discuss? Lastly, if the person identifies the flaws but pretends not to, out of some stubborn and misguided devotion, then the appropriate response may be pity.
As a sidenote, six years is sufficient time to read the collected works of Stephen King, including the ones with decent to good endings.
It's funny you bring up King, and I agree completely. The way he ended The Dark Tower was literally the lamest thing I have ever read. At least I've come to expect that from him. I didn't know Lost was going to go out that way, which is probably why I'm as disappointed as I am. Funny thing, I read somewhere that another JJ Abrams drama, Alias, also had a really weak series ending. I don't know if there's anything to that, since I don't think he touched either show much after they started, but it's not a good track record...
about Ecko, whom I awlso thought was wicked bad, the reason he wasn't there at the end is the same as the reason he died on the show to begin with, the guy's a dick who wanted off so they killed him and didn't invite him back for the finale.
I heard that they made him an offer to be in the finale, but he wanted five times as much money. Guess they didn't need him that bad.
Between Eko, Michael and Walt, the finale kinda made it look like black men don't get into heaven. I'm 100% sure that's not intentional, but it's weird that the only really noticeable absences ended up that way.
I heard that they made him an offer to be in the finale, but he wanted five times as much money. Guess they didn't need him that bad.
According to Wikipedia, he requested to be written out of the show because he didn't feel at home in Hawaii - it doesn't mention anything about any outrageous demands or animosity between him and the staffers.
/shrug
And yeah, the Walt / Michael absence seemed very odd, as if they simply forgot about them. Surely Michael should have been there, as he's been dead the longest? Maybe his murderous actions prevented him from joining the others, but even Linus had the choice of joining them, and Michael had admitted his regret about killing Libby? No Walt at all, even though they revisited the character through Locke earlier in the show?
Maybe that was the intention of the creators, keep many secrets which will make us keep talking about the show for some time. Or maybe they will release more DVDs with all kinds of explanations, a great way to keep the money rolling :poly124:
It's funny you bring up King, and I agree completely. The way he ended The Dark Tower was literally the lamest thing I have ever read. At least I've come to expect that from him. I didn't know Lost was going to go out that way, which is probably why I'm as disappointed as I am. Funny thing, I read somewhere that another JJ Abrams drama, Alias, also had a really weak series ending. I don't know if there's anything to that, since I don't think he touched either show much after they started, but it's not a good track record...
Haha wow, I finished The Gunslinger a few days ago and was gonna pick up the second book in the library today and King pops up.
Talk about coincidence. Or maybe we're all a Hivemind?
Or maybe Fate brought us together.
Also, Michael said he was sealed on the island for his actions, so I guess he couldn't be with them? As for Walt, they can always say he isn't ready yet.
considering they pretty much wrote out everything to do with Walt after he got "too big" for the show (one single episope 4 seasons later doesn't count - and that's what happens when you wait a whole year between seasons you idiot producers) they're probably hoping nobody remembers. The guy that plays Micheal said on Kimmel that his spirit was stuck on the island, though I'd be surprised if knew for sure. Maybe he's hanging out with those diamond theives from season 3.
I used Stephen King as an example when discussing the finale with my wife.
I'm not 100% the following qualifies as a "spoiler" for those of you who have not yet read, but intend to read, the Gunslinger series, but I'm tagging it just to be safe:
The point I felt King was attempting to make with the ending of The Gunslinger was that it's not the ending that is important in story-telling, it's the journey getting there. While it may be seen as a bit of a cop-out, it has given me a new way to look at, and appreciate stories like like Lost and, to a much larger extent, video games which almost always have endings that feel like a "let-down."
If you take away the mysterious briefcase in Pulp Fiction and replace it with something mundane and ordinary, maybe Marcellus Wallace's lunch, the story still works (or at least until the final scene, which needs a dialogue change.) If you replace the island in Lost with something ordinary, even just a normal tropical island, the whole series is gone. There's no mystery, no conflcit, no compelling reason for the characters to do anything but sit on a beach and wait for rescue. It's much more important than Jules's briefcase or the Maltese Falcon or any other traditional empty plot device.
i dont think you understand what a macguffin is. the briefcase in pulp fiction works because whatever it is, it motivates the characters to interact with each other in interesting ways. do you really think marsellus wallace would send two trained killers to murder an entire apartment full of dudes over "something mundane and ordinary"? do you really think that tim roth would have fixated on it to the point where he lost the drop on jules and vincent? do you think that jules and vincent would have been willing to die over marcellus wallaces lunch? fuck no. whatever is in that case make the characters act a certain way, it doesn't matter what it is in actuality, all we need to know is that its a motivator for them.
the island is the same thing. because its mysterious and strange it forced all the characters to act in ways that were interesting. Lost doesn't happen without the magical mysterious nature of the island. if they were just stranded on a remote island, were left with Castaway. It doesnt matter what made the island the way that it is, nor does it matter why it effects people the way that it does. all that matters is that it is what it is, and it does what it does. it created a vehicle to drive the story forward, to get to know the characters in new and interesting ways, to force them to interact with each other.
would it have been nice to know the back story? FUCK YEAH. id still love to know what was in marcellus wallaces briefcase too, but that doesnt stop me from enjoying its effects in pulp fiction.
According to Wikipedia, he requested to be written out of the show because he didn't feel at home in Hawaii - it doesn't mention anything about any outrageous demands or animosity between him and the staffers.
/shrug
And yeah, the Walt / Michael absence seemed very odd, as if they simply forgot about them. Surely Michael should have been there, as he's been dead the longest? Maybe his murderous actions prevented him from joining the others, but even Linus had the choice of joining them, and Michael had admitted his regret about killing Libby? No Walt at all, even though they revisited the character through Locke earlier in the show?
i dont think you understand what a macguffin is. the briefcase in pulp fiction works because whatever it is, it motivates the characters to interact with each other in interesting ways. do you really think marsellus wallace would send two trained killers to murder an entire apartment full of dudes over "something mundane and ordinary"? do you really think that tim roth would have fixated on it to the point where he lost the drop on jules and vincent? do you think that jules and vincent would have been willing to die over marcellus wallaces lunch? fuck no. whatever is in that case make the characters act a certain way, it doesn't matter what it is in actuality, all we need to know is that its a motivator for them.
the island is the same thing. because its mysterious and strange it forced all the characters to act in ways that were interesting. Lost doesn't happen without the magical mysterious nature of the island. if they were just stranded on a remote island, were left with Castaway. It doesnt matter what made the island the way that it is, nor does it matter why it effects people the way that it does. all that matters is that it is what it is, and it does what it does. it created a vehicle to drive the story forward, to get to know the characters in new and interesting ways, to force them to interact with each other.
would it have been nice to know the back story? FUCK YEAH. id still love to know what was in marcellus wallaces briefcase too, but that doesnt stop me from enjoying its effects in pulp fiction.
Ehhh. This seems like a rather strained comparison, to me.
You see the breifcase in what? 3 scenes in a 2 and a half hour movie. The island, in Lost, is talked about and explored in great detail in very many of the episodes of the show, and almost manifests as a character in itself.
It has more of an integral role in the show, rather than just a mere mechanism for driving the story and character interaction along. I think this is why most of the audience wants to know about the island, and what's driving it, and were majorly disappointed when most of this stuff passed by, and the gang went to heaven, or whatever that last scene was.
I know both the island and the breifcase are mechanisms, but the nature of how the island is woven into the plot of Lost makes the comparison seem extremely loose.
Well, interesting to read (and it certainly wouldn't be the first time such demands had been made by TV stars - David Duchovny, anyone?), but at least Wikipedia try to implement quality standards that include citing sources, something the likes of E! don't tend to bother with.
Shame, though - I liked Eko's character, and it would have been interesting to see how they would have written him into the battle against Flocke.
i dont think you understand what a macguffin is. the briefcase in pulp fiction works because whatever it is, it motivates the characters to interact with each other in interesting ways. do you really think marsellus wallace would send two trained killers to murder an entire apartment full of dudes over "something mundane and ordinary"? do you really think that tim roth would have fixated on it to the point where he lost the drop on jules and vincent? do you think that jules and vincent would have been willing to die over marcellus wallaces lunch? fuck no. whatever is in that case make the characters act a certain way, it doesn't matter what it is in actuality, all we need to know is that its a motivator for them.
the island is the same thing. because its mysterious and strange it forced all the characters to act in ways that were interesting. Lost doesn't happen without the magical mysterious nature of the island. if they were just stranded on a remote island, were left with Castaway. It doesnt matter what made the island the way that it is, nor does it matter why it effects people the way that it does. all that matters is that it is what it is, and it does what it does. it created a vehicle to drive the story forward, to get to know the characters in new and interesting ways, to force them to interact with each other.
would it have been nice to know the back story? FUCK YEAH. id still love to know what was in marcellus wallaces briefcase too, but that doesnt stop me from enjoying its effects in pulp fiction.
Nah, I understand what one is. The thing about a Macguffin the way Hitchcock described it is that its contents don't have any real effect on the story. You can replace the mysterious light in Pulp Fiction with a briefcase full of treasury bonds and the story works fine. You can swap the Maltese Falcon with a valuable oil painting and it's the same story. The government secrets in North by Northwest can be replaced with nuclear launch codes and not change the story. Those items drive the story, but don't affect the characters in the story.
You can't do that with the island in Lost. If you replace it with something non-magical or whatever, then the story changes - you pretty much wrote that yourself, right? If there's no magic island, there's no Dharma. If there's no Dharma, there's no Looking Glass, and no Looking Glass means Charlie doesn't drown after he turns off the signal jammer.
I think I view the island more as a character than a plot device, because it had such a profound effect on other characters' growth. Just my opinion, though.
*edit*
I see that the Wikipedia entry for Macguffins lists the island as being one, but I'm never sure about the truthiness of Wikipedia
Haha wow, I finished The Gunslinger a few days ago and was gonna pick up the second book in the library today and King pops up.
Talk about coincidence. Or maybe we're all a Hivemind?
Or maybe Fate brought us together.
Maybe we were all drawn? I think that's the third book.
The Gunslinger is great, I still remember the opening line ("the man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed"). The first three books are just awesome, and the fourth one was interesting. It's the last three that I think go downhill. They were all written after King was nearly killed in a car accident, and I got the impression he was rushing to get them done. I won't spoil any of the plot, but there's all kinds of weird shit in the last couple books, pop culture references to things like Harry Potter and King himself appears as a character. He actually stops the last novel before the final act and warns people to quit reading because they won't like it... I should have listened
Nah, I understand what one is. The thing about a Macguffin the way Hitchcock described it is that its contents don't have any real effect on the story. You can replace the mysterious light in Pulp Fiction with a briefcase full of treasury bonds and the story works fine. You can swap the Maltese Falcon with a valuable oil painting and it's the same story. The government secrets in North by Northwest can be replaced with nuclear launch codes and not change the story. Those items drive the story, but don't affect the characters in the story.
You can't do that with the island in Lost. If you replace it with something non-magical or whatever, then the story changes - you pretty much wrote that yourself, right? If there's no magic island, there's no Dharma. If there's no Dharma, there's no Looking Glass, and no Looking Glass means Charlie doesn't drown after he turns off the signal jammer.
I think I view the island more as a character than a plot device, because it had such a profound effect on other characters' growth. Just my opinion, though.
*edit*
I see that the Wikipedia entry for Macguffins lists the island as being one, but I'm never sure about the truthiness of Wikipedia
haha...i guess im not the only one that feels like the island is a macguffin then.
i understand what your saying but if you look at the things your swapping out, they are all interchangeable. IE they would still motivate the people to act in the same ways.
so we just need to find something that works in the same way for the island. what if we were to swap out the magical nature of the island for frank herberts planet dune. it has something people would want (source of spice). there are mysterious people that were called there hidden around the area (fremen). there are people off world (island) that want to find it/exploit it (space guild/harkonens). direct contact with this magical nature has profound effects (paul atreides precog abilities), while no one really understands why it does what it does.
i feel like they could have told the story within the confines of the dune universe and had the characters act/interact in the same ways to drive the story forward.
I suspect he was telling Locke that Desmond can enter that pool without being killed, because that was the moment when Locke decided he was glad Desmond wasn't dead.
I can't remember a t.v series invoking this much discord among people. We've really suspended disbelief to the extent that we are so angry. Questions we desperately wanted answered were left untouched. We forgot that Lost was written by men, able to omit details over the previous 5 seasons, forget about fillers that the network forced upon them. I remember reading that ABC were so pleased about the initial success of Lost they ordered season after season, so its unsurprising that there are so many holes left unfilled. People gotta eat, so Lost gotta air regardless of how we feel!
Hell, Academy award movies are riddled with continuity errors and blatant timeline flaws, (anyone remember the red hydrant in Gladiator?)
I was happy to watch Lost, it passed the time, and whilst I wasn't completely overjoyed about the ending I think it's done a fine job in invoking emotion and raising discussion that we wouldn't normally talk about, and thats a good thing right?
Personally, I'm more pissed that HBO canned Deadwood before it's time...Swearengen Cocksucker!
As for LOST - I'm done arguing about it, hah. I absolutely loved the ending and I'm fine with how some things were left open. You can NEVER satisfy all viewers.
As for LOST - I'm done arguing about it, hah. I absolutely loved the ending and I'm fine with how some things were left open. You can NEVER satisfy all viewers.
Now, Sopranos had a fucking lame ass ending.
Oddly enough I actually liked the way The Sopranos ended.
I liked the ending of LOST for what it was. But it had me yelling "NO! NNOO!!" at the TV for the last 5 - 10 mins, because I could totally see where it was going. Once it got there, I just had the whole "meh" feeling and switched off the TV.
They all met up in "heaven" and lived happily ever after staring at the church altar. YAY! What a steaming load!
Most of those "questions" had at least some form of explanation. If you had full through and through answers to every possible question in that video, what would be left of LOST's mystique?
- Why did the monster kill the pilot? Because it's a FUCKING MONSTER
- What did Locke see when he first saw the smoke? He said "something beautiful", calling it the "eye". Specifics do not matter!
- What's with the polar bear in Walt's comic? A distraction to get you thinking it was related to the Dharma polar bear - nothing more
- Where is Christian Shepard's body? Smokey took the fucking thing. He already said he was Christian when Jack saw him. He disposed of the real body
- Why did the psychic tell Claire to get on 815 and that she had to raise him? Ultimately, because it would result in Aaron getting OFF the island, and WITH Kate
- Why did the others want Walt so bad? Because he was the most special, and the best "candidate"
- Who send Kate the letter about her mother being treated for cancer? I'll assume that was Sawyer's "ex" who she befriended. But again - does it really matter?
- How does Walt know about the hatch and why does he tell Locke not to open it? Walt is special and can do strange things (like appearing in random places). I'm sure that Walt could see some kind of future resulting from Locke opening it
- Why does the smoke monster make mechanical sounds? Does it matter? Would you rather have it make farting noises?
- How did Walt appear to Shannon and talk to Michael on Dharma ICQ? Again, Walt is special. Doesn't really matter
- What's the deal with Kate and that horse? Her and the Marshal crashed in a rainstorm and she escaped, remember? She saw a black horse there. As to the core relevancy of what it means to her - DOESN'T MATTER!
- Why do Dharma drops still come to the island after the purge? This is related to time travel. It could be old Dharma sending them forward, who knows. Again, irrelevant
- Who triggered the lockdown and why do blacklights come on? It sounded like faulty wiring triggered the lockdown and Radzinsky probably installed the lighting to see his "invisible" map of the Dharma stations
- What happened to the real Henry Gale? He's dead
- How did Libby get from the mental hospital to flight 815? Doesn't matter, but I'll assume it had to do with Widmore
- Who built the 4-toed statue? It looks egyptian to me. Who knows. I'd personally LOVE to know more about the statue, but I'm fine with it not being explained
- Why does only one bearing get you off the island? I'm guessing this is due to the magnetic interference
- What are the symbols on the hatch clock? Although never explained on the show, you can find many many forums explaining them. nothing mysterious about it
- Why did Tom wear a fake bear? Because they were trying to appear as rugged, dirty and unorganized. Making their enemies think they are weak
- Who was Libby's husband that had the boat she gave to Desmond? Doesn't matter
- Who are the skeletons in the polar bear cave? Could be people from the black rock, or where "mother" dumped the bodies of those she killed
Where did the toy truck come from? A Dharma kid perhaps?...
Ok, I lunch break is over, hah. Someone else want to continue? Really, some of these are painfully obvious.
your missing two key words whenever you write 'doesnt matter' in your post............TO ME. Cant you understand that these things that do not matter to you might matter to other people who watched the show and who are ultimately disappointed with its climax?
your missing two key words whenever you write 'doesnt matter' in your post............TO ME. Cant you understand that these things that do not matter to you might matter to other people who watched the show and who are ultimately disappointed with its climax?
You're missing proper grammar
But honestly, do you want them to go down a checklist of everything and tell you exactly what was going on? I think, IMO, it really doesn't matter to me at all to learn the answers to half of the nonsense they threw at us in this show. It was a fun roller coaster, and I had my hands up the whole time.
Its all about faith, and if you believe in the island. I am happy with the result, and a lot of people were upset that certain characters were not there. Micheal was in the jungle with Hurley, and said, "I am dead, and stuck here...whispering...". When Hurley got out of his Hummer to give the 125k to Anna Lucia, he said, "Is she coming with us?", Desmond, "She is not ready..."
Come up with your own conclusions, because everyone has a different take on the show, and that is the beauty of it.
Vassago, I like how half your explainations are "it doesn't matter" or "it's irrelevant". If people are asking these questions then I guess it does actually matter, regardless of relevance.
Just saying.
But I guess we are just two different people, I'm a man of science and you're a man of faith.
All the unanswered questions just make me think they'll do a sequel to it, might not be on tv, but disney won't just stop when there's money to be made. Hell, they own Marvel now and they've had a bunch of comic writers on the show, a comic mini-series to explain a few things would probably sell reasonably well
Vassago, I like how half your explainations are "it doesn't matter" or "it's irrelevant". If people are asking these questions then I guess it does actually matter, regardless of relevance.
Just saying.
But I guess we are just two different people, I'm a man of science and you're a man of faith.
2nded. The fact that people are asking is more than enough significance to say these things do matter. hell at the beginning of the show I didn't give a crap about any of the people I just wanted to know what the island was about, and what the cool smoke monster had to do with things.. and why the hell a polar bear was on the island...
imho.. the ending failed on multiple levels. I remember a few years ago a friend of mine called the ending and I was like "nah man, it won't be that lame."
but boy do those writers know how to write characters.
2nded. The fact that people are asking is more than enough significance to say these things do matter. hell at the beginning of the show I didn't give a crap about any of the people I just wanted to know what the island was about, and what the cool smoke monster had to do with things.. and why the hell a polar bear was on the island...
Same here, that's the way it is for me. I didn't get hooked on Lost because it was a relationship drama, but because it was a badass sci-fi mystery. Remember the first season cliffhanger, when they open the hatch? Nothing about character, it was totally about plot! The series grew to have good characters, but that's not how the show started and that's not what drew me in.
To have so much of that go unaddressed is just very disappointing. The characters were good, but the story is what mattered to me.
1. jack dies and we are reunited with the characters past and present for a final send off (happened)
2. jack dies and we are told the secrets of the island, somehow, and exactly why and how it came into being.
I originally thought the writers were storytelling geniuses.
I now believe they were just a bunch of stoned college kids throwing random crap together off the top of their head because they thought it "would be cool". And with one episode, I feel like I'm the victim of a 6 year long inside joke.
And with one episode, I feel like I'm the victim of a 6 year long inside joke.
Wow, seriously?...
Look, lots of people saw the finale as mushy and cheesily mystic. But the spiritual themes of Lost have always been there and if you didn't like them, they were easy to ignore because the show had so many other entertaining things going on. However, the end seemed to be all about spirituality and seemed to announce the whole series had been about the spiritual stuff.
If you never connected with the spirituality, wither your investment of time and interest in the show you thought Lost was, but apparently wasn't? (As Ben said to Jacob last season: "What about me?" Maybe that's why you find it easy to angrily jab a knife into the heart of the show now that it's over) - paraphrased from "Doc" Jensen.
If the finale made anything clear, it's that you sometimes just have to let go. You don't always get all the answers. The biggest questions were answered and the story about these characters came to a close. Move on.
Look, lots of people saw the finale as mushy and cheesily mystic. But the spiritual themes of Lost have always been there and if you didn't like them, they were easy to ignore because the show had so many other entertaining things going on. However, the end seemed to be all about spirituality and seemed to announce the whole series had been about the spiritual stuff.
If you never connected with the spirituality, wither your investment of time and interest in the show you thought Lost was, but apparently wasn't? (As Ben said to Jacob last season: "What about me?" Maybe that's why you find it easy to angrily jab a knife into the heart of the show now that it's over) - paraphrased from "Doc" Jensen.
If the finale made anything clear, it's that you sometimes just have to let go. You don't always get all the answers. The biggest questions were answered and the story about these characters came to a close. Move on.
Yes, seriously. And I don't appreciate the mocking tone. You are no smarter or enlightened than I am. Many people feel the same as I do about this finale. You say the biggest questions were answered. My God, are YOU serious?! The biggest questions were NOT answered.
Sometimes you just have to let go? Sounds like a copout for poor storytelling. I just watched the finale last night, and believe me, I HAVE let go. I don't think another show will be able to get away with what LOST has pulled off throughout it's 6 year run.
Replies
But a giant rock slamming into the earth is something I understand. I've read evidence that it has happened before, killing all the dinosaurs, and I understand the science of how it could happen again. A better question (to pluck from the show) is if I handed you a small metal box with a button on it and I told you something bad would happen unless you pushed the button every day, would you believe me? Would YOU need an explanation, or are you taking my word that your pressing this mysterious button is the only thing preventing catastrophe?
Pushing the button to prevent disaster is not something I understand. Same goes for guarding the light - I need an explanation.
I don't get that, either. How is trusting people for no reason an example of faith? It used to be that people fell for the Nigerian prince email scams - they didn't know better, and they did what they were told. Is that faith or naivety?
But here's the thing: why do we know it's bad? Because Jacob said so. And how does he know? Because his 'mom' said so. And who is she?
She's a woman who kills the mother of newborn twins moments after birth. She's a woman who slaughters an entire village without provocation. That's where our good guy, Jacob, gets his information from. That's the source of the Losties' faith, a woman who murders in cold blood. Why would you take the word of this woman, when the only thing you know about her is that she will kill innocents to further her agenda? Can you really say who is obviously a bad entity, when the supposed force for good has so much blood on her hands? FLocke wanted off the island before he was a smoke monster, and it was her denial of his freedom to choose his own path that set the conflict in motion.
Poor FLocke. His true mother was murdered by the woman who raised him, a woman who kept him caged on an island - first by ignorance and then by destroying his only means of escape. He wasn't out to hurt anyone, all he wanted was to leave. It's not evil to want to be free.
I'm with you 100% all the way on this.
I'm actually interested to hear what Per has to say about the finale.
This, for me, was one of the biggest letdowns. Not only the lack of explanation as to who she is, but also the timing of her introduction felt really slap-dash to me.
If she had been introduced even a little earlier, some hint of how she made it so that Jacob and the MiB couldn't kill each other (or leave) and some clue as to what the island is and how it has these mysterious properties would have gone a long way towards making the ending (which I actually enjoyed immensely, btw) a lot more satisfying.
I mean, I could even let some stuff that bugged other people slide, like what the light is and why it's so important it be kept lit, if they'd given us just a little more to chew on with regards to such incredibly important plot devices as to Jacob and the MiB's true origins.
Must say I found it quite emotional.
The lostie inside me though still yearns for explanations, but it's quite obvious that the island is magic. The mother uses magic, Jacob and Flocke are protected by magic and can give magic. Men want to find the islands secrets, thats what the whole show ran on. The island had worshippers and enemies.
I don't think we need to know why the island was magic - that would have been disappointing.
The purgatory side universe where the plane never crashed was a bit of an odd side road to go with (as the show doesn't explain how everyone on there died in the real world, but we can only guess the escape plane crashes). Desmond is special because he can see into purgatory, his own afterlife, that much is obvious. The island gave him this magic, just as it gave Locke the ability to walk.
If you look at it, everything is explained right in front of you - just connecting the dots takes time and reflection. As this was explained during 6 years of the show, there is no big reveal. So in that respect, the show ended quite beautifully.
I liked the ending. I was actually expecting a much more cliffhangy ending, but I was glad they just said "fuck it, we'll spoon feed you with everything so you get it" because now I will only spend a few days thinking about it. Else I'd have a week of sleepless nights trying to understand something.
I think the best part of the ending, were the final seconds. Jack lying exactly where he was lying in the beginning. I had a flashback to when I started watching Lost for the first time, when it was still about something mysterious and you didn't quite know what was going on, and the nostalgia filled me to be brim. I just sat there for a while, sad that this whole thing ended.
As for good and bad thing - guys I'm pretty sure it was intended that way. Even Evil said it - you can argue about what's good and bad all day and at the end of it nothing is changed. Evil was made, well, evil by the actions of those who tried to protect him and prepare for something greater. Or actually, evil was dormant, but the man who embodied it had the seed of it inside his heart all the time. Aside: The whole Untitled-Jacob thing is like a weird mix between Cain and Abel and Adam and Eve. They were given Eden, but because they were humans, they were curious. God (woman) tries to warn them, but the serpent (humanity) attracts their attention and they learn the evil ways of our true nature. Of course only one of them really embraces this truth and eventually becomes Evil itself as it is consumed by the evil that lives within all of us (kills mother) and makes the goody-shoes Jacob kill him in the Light (forbidden fruit).
Anyway, I think Evil/FakeLocke is evil exactly because it doesn't forgive, and embraces the darker, cruel nature of humanity. Jacob, on the other hand, while largely responsible for this outcome, believes in mankind. He believed that at some point, someone, is going to make the right decisions (right from a moral standpoint) which earns him his "good" title. It may be a dictionary definition of good and evil, but this clearly rebukes the idea that Smokey could have actually been good and etc.
Also,
EDIT: I suppose I can't leave without mentioning things that could have been done better.
I thought the whole island collapsing sequence was a bit pulled. It was violently collapsing at first, but then they needed like an hour for the cliff to collapse. I know why they did it, the characters need time, etc. but it could have been done better imo.
I totally thought Jack was the next Smokey when he appeared outside. Though his final moments were much more gratifying than seeing Jack become a smoke monster embodiment of evil, I was kinda expecting it and it would be at least a little bit of cliffhanging. Of course it wouldn't really fit with happy Jack in paradise, oh well.
A few pages back I saw someone mention Ecko. I loved that guy. Silent, huge, deadly and a fucking priest. He challenged fucking Evil itself, he had fucking balls yo. I wanted to see him too (although admittedly I only remembered about him while reading posts) but his absence can be explained by either:
1) he wasn't ready like Anna-Lucia.
2) the crash wasn't the most memorable and affecting thing that happened to him. He loved his brother the most, so maybe his purgatory wasn't with them.
Last but not least, it's fucking 05:31 am here an I have a math test (like hell I'll be thinking of math tomorrow), but I thought I'd mention the fact that I haven't watched the show in sequence everytime an episode came out. A show as gripping as Lost I can only watch when it's out in full. Perhaps the fact that I watched 4 eps before the 2 ep finale cushioned it slightly. Perhaps a weeklong wait for the final episode would have made me cooler in regards to it.
It's funny you bring up King, and I agree completely. The way he ended The Dark Tower was literally the lamest thing I have ever read. At least I've come to expect that from him. I didn't know Lost was going to go out that way, which is probably why I'm as disappointed as I am. Funny thing, I read somewhere that another JJ Abrams drama, Alias, also had a really weak series ending. I don't know if there's anything to that, since I don't think he touched either show much after they started, but it's not a good track record...
I heard that they made him an offer to be in the finale, but he wanted five times as much money. Guess they didn't need him that bad.
Between Eko, Michael and Walt, the finale kinda made it look like black men don't get into heaven. I'm 100% sure that's not intentional, but it's weird that the only really noticeable absences ended up that way.
According to Wikipedia, he requested to be written out of the show because he didn't feel at home in Hawaii - it doesn't mention anything about any outrageous demands or animosity between him and the staffers.
/shrug
And yeah, the Walt / Michael absence seemed very odd, as if they simply forgot about them. Surely Michael should have been there, as he's been dead the longest? Maybe his murderous actions prevented him from joining the others, but even Linus had the choice of joining them, and Michael had admitted his regret about killing Libby? No Walt at all, even though they revisited the character through Locke earlier in the show?
I think I need to lie down.
Haha wow, I finished The Gunslinger a few days ago and was gonna pick up the second book in the library today and King pops up.
Talk about coincidence. Or maybe we're all a Hivemind?
Or maybe Fate brought us together.
Also, Michael said he was sealed on the island for his actions, so I guess he couldn't be with them? As for Walt, they can always say he isn't ready yet.
Maybe walt wasn't dead yet? We don't know how long it has been since the events on the island and perhaps walt is still an old man...
I used Stephen King as an example when discussing the finale with my wife.
I'm not 100% the following qualifies as a "spoiler" for those of you who have not yet read, but intend to read, the Gunslinger series, but I'm tagging it just to be safe:
Anyhow, thanks Lost, I enjoyed the ride.
i dont think you understand what a macguffin is. the briefcase in pulp fiction works because whatever it is, it motivates the characters to interact with each other in interesting ways. do you really think marsellus wallace would send two trained killers to murder an entire apartment full of dudes over "something mundane and ordinary"? do you really think that tim roth would have fixated on it to the point where he lost the drop on jules and vincent? do you think that jules and vincent would have been willing to die over marcellus wallaces lunch? fuck no. whatever is in that case make the characters act a certain way, it doesn't matter what it is in actuality, all we need to know is that its a motivator for them.
the island is the same thing. because its mysterious and strange it forced all the characters to act in ways that were interesting. Lost doesn't happen without the magical mysterious nature of the island. if they were just stranded on a remote island, were left with Castaway. It doesnt matter what made the island the way that it is, nor does it matter why it effects people the way that it does. all that matters is that it is what it is, and it does what it does. it created a vehicle to drive the story forward, to get to know the characters in new and interesting ways, to force them to interact with each other.
would it have been nice to know the back story? FUCK YEAH. id still love to know what was in marcellus wallaces briefcase too, but that doesnt stop me from enjoying its effects in pulp fiction.
http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/watch_with_kristin/b182526_losts_adewale_akinnuoye-agbaje_turned.html#ixzz0orCtEiXY
This would be both cruel and clever.
Ehhh. This seems like a rather strained comparison, to me.
You see the breifcase in what? 3 scenes in a 2 and a half hour movie. The island, in Lost, is talked about and explored in great detail in very many of the episodes of the show, and almost manifests as a character in itself.
It has more of an integral role in the show, rather than just a mere mechanism for driving the story and character interaction along. I think this is why most of the audience wants to know about the island, and what's driving it, and were majorly disappointed when most of this stuff passed by, and the gang went to heaven, or whatever that last scene was.
I know both the island and the breifcase are mechanisms, but the nature of how the island is woven into the plot of Lost makes the comparison seem extremely loose.
Well, interesting to read (and it certainly wouldn't be the first time such demands had been made by TV stars - David Duchovny, anyone?), but at least Wikipedia try to implement quality standards that include citing sources, something the likes of E! don't tend to bother with.
Shame, though - I liked Eko's character, and it would have been interesting to see how they would have written him into the battle against Flocke.
Nah, I understand what one is. The thing about a Macguffin the way Hitchcock described it is that its contents don't have any real effect on the story. You can replace the mysterious light in Pulp Fiction with a briefcase full of treasury bonds and the story works fine. You can swap the Maltese Falcon with a valuable oil painting and it's the same story. The government secrets in North by Northwest can be replaced with nuclear launch codes and not change the story. Those items drive the story, but don't affect the characters in the story.
You can't do that with the island in Lost. If you replace it with something non-magical or whatever, then the story changes - you pretty much wrote that yourself, right? If there's no magic island, there's no Dharma. If there's no Dharma, there's no Looking Glass, and no Looking Glass means Charlie doesn't drown after he turns off the signal jammer.
I think I view the island more as a character than a plot device, because it had such a profound effect on other characters' growth. Just my opinion, though.
*edit*
I see that the Wikipedia entry for Macguffins lists the island as being one, but I'm never sure about the truthiness of Wikipedia
Maybe we were all drawn?
The Gunslinger is great, I still remember the opening line ("the man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed"). The first three books are just awesome, and the fourth one was interesting. It's the last three that I think go downhill. They were all written after King was nearly killed in a car accident, and I got the impression he was rushing to get them done. I won't spoil any of the plot, but there's all kinds of weird shit in the last couple books, pop culture references to things like Harry Potter and King himself appears as a character. He actually stops the last novel before the final act and warns people to quit reading because they won't like it... I should have listened
haha...i guess im not the only one that feels like the island is a macguffin then.
i understand what your saying but if you look at the things your swapping out, they are all interchangeable. IE they would still motivate the people to act in the same ways.
so we just need to find something that works in the same way for the island. what if we were to swap out the magical nature of the island for frank herberts planet dune. it has something people would want (source of spice). there are mysterious people that were called there hidden around the area (fremen). there are people off world (island) that want to find it/exploit it (space guild/harkonens). direct contact with this magical nature has profound effects (paul atreides precog abilities), while no one really understands why it does what it does.
i feel like they could have told the story within the confines of the dune universe and had the characters act/interact in the same ways to drive the story forward.
Hell, Academy award movies are riddled with continuity errors and blatant timeline flaws, (anyone remember the red hydrant in Gladiator?)
I was happy to watch Lost, it passed the time, and whilst I wasn't completely overjoyed about the ending I think it's done a fine job in invoking emotion and raising discussion that we wouldn't normally talk about, and thats a good thing right?
Personally, I'm more pissed that HBO canned Deadwood before it's time...Swearengen Cocksucker!
Hell yes!
As for LOST - I'm done arguing about it, hah. I absolutely loved the ending and I'm fine with how some things were left open. You can NEVER satisfy all viewers.
Now, Sopranos had a fucking lame ass ending.
I DID! I thought they were going to show REAL alternate endings...fucking TV advertising bullshit! Argh..
I liked the ending of LOST for what it was. But it had me yelling "NO! NNOO!!" at the TV for the last 5 - 10 mins, because I could totally see where it was going. Once it got there, I just had the whole "meh" feeling and switched off the TV.
They all met up in "heaven" and lived happily ever after staring at the church altar. YAY! What a steaming load!
I Used to Like the "Lost" Finale. And Then I Saw This Video
"One-Hundred Unanswered Lost Questions "
Most of those "questions" had at least some form of explanation. If you had full through and through answers to every possible question in that video, what would be left of LOST's mystique?
Because it's a FUCKING MONSTER
- What did Locke see when he first saw the smoke?
He said "something beautiful", calling it the "eye". Specifics do not matter!
- What's with the polar bear in Walt's comic?
A distraction to get you thinking it was related to the Dharma polar bear - nothing more
- Where is Christian Shepard's body?
Smokey took the fucking thing. He already said he was Christian when Jack saw him. He disposed of the real body
- Why did the psychic tell Claire to get on 815 and that she had to raise him?
Ultimately, because it would result in Aaron getting OFF the island, and WITH Kate
- Why did the others want Walt so bad?
Because he was the most special, and the best "candidate"
- Who send Kate the letter about her mother being treated for cancer?
I'll assume that was Sawyer's "ex" who she befriended. But again - does it really matter?
- How does Walt know about the hatch and why does he tell Locke not to open it?
Walt is special and can do strange things (like appearing in random places). I'm sure that Walt could see some kind of future resulting from Locke opening it
- Why does the smoke monster make mechanical sounds?
Does it matter? Would you rather have it make farting noises?
- How did Walt appear to Shannon and talk to Michael on Dharma ICQ?
Again, Walt is special. Doesn't really matter
- What's the deal with Kate and that horse?
Her and the Marshal crashed in a rainstorm and she escaped, remember? She saw a black horse there. As to the core relevancy of what it means to her - DOESN'T MATTER!
- Why do Dharma drops still come to the island after the purge?
This is related to time travel. It could be old Dharma sending them forward, who knows. Again, irrelevant
- Who triggered the lockdown and why do blacklights come on?
It sounded like faulty wiring triggered the lockdown and Radzinsky probably installed the lighting to see his "invisible" map of the Dharma stations
- What happened to the real Henry Gale?
He's dead
- How did Libby get from the mental hospital to flight 815?
Doesn't matter, but I'll assume it had to do with Widmore
- Who built the 4-toed statue?
It looks egyptian to me. Who knows. I'd personally LOVE to know more about the statue, but I'm fine with it not being explained
- Why does only one bearing get you off the island?
I'm guessing this is due to the magnetic interference
- What are the symbols on the hatch clock?
Although never explained on the show, you can find many many forums explaining them. nothing mysterious about it
- Why did Tom wear a fake bear?
Because they were trying to appear as rugged, dirty and unorganized. Making their enemies think they are weak
- Who was Libby's husband that had the boat she gave to Desmond?
Doesn't matter
- Who are the skeletons in the polar bear cave?
Could be people from the black rock, or where "mother" dumped the bodies of those she killed
Where did the toy truck come from?
A Dharma kid perhaps?...
Ok, I lunch break is over, hah. Someone else want to continue? Really, some of these are painfully obvious.
Because they were trying to appear as rugged, dirty and unorganized. Making their enemies think they are weak
Or, the same reason they set up a fake camp, made a fake hatch and put on super grungy, hand made, moth eaten costumes. To disguise themselves...
You're missing proper grammar
But honestly, do you want them to go down a checklist of everything and tell you exactly what was going on? I think, IMO, it really doesn't matter to me at all to learn the answers to half of the nonsense they threw at us in this show. It was a fun roller coaster, and I had my hands up the whole time.
Its all about faith, and if you believe in the island. I am happy with the result, and a lot of people were upset that certain characters were not there. Micheal was in the jungle with Hurley, and said, "I am dead, and stuck here...whispering...". When Hurley got out of his Hummer to give the 125k to Anna Lucia, he said, "Is she coming with us?", Desmond, "She is not ready..."
Come up with your own conclusions, because everyone has a different take on the show, and that is the beauty of it.
Just saying.
But I guess we are just two different people, I'm a man of science and you're a man of faith.
2nded. The fact that people are asking is more than enough significance to say these things do matter. hell at the beginning of the show I didn't give a crap about any of the people I just wanted to know what the island was about, and what the cool smoke monster had to do with things.. and why the hell a polar bear was on the island...
imho.. the ending failed on multiple levels. I remember a few years ago a friend of mine called the ending and I was like "nah man, it won't be that lame."
but boy do those writers know how to write characters.
Same here, that's the way it is for me. I didn't get hooked on Lost because it was a relationship drama, but because it was a badass sci-fi mystery. Remember the first season cliffhanger, when they open the hatch? Nothing about character, it was totally about plot! The series grew to have good characters, but that's not how the show started and that's not what drew me in.
To have so much of that go unaddressed is just very disappointing. The characters were good, but the story is what mattered to me.
1. jack dies and we are reunited with the characters past and present for a final send off (happened)
2. jack dies and we are told the secrets of the island, somehow, and exactly why and how it came into being.
Method 2 would kill the legacy of the show
I now believe they were just a bunch of stoned college kids throwing random crap together off the top of their head because they thought it "would be cool". And with one episode, I feel like I'm the victim of a 6 year long inside joke.
Wow, seriously?...
Look, lots of people saw the finale as mushy and cheesily mystic. But the spiritual themes of Lost have always been there and if you didn't like them, they were easy to ignore because the show had so many other entertaining things going on. However, the end seemed to be all about spirituality and seemed to announce the whole series had been about the spiritual stuff.
If you never connected with the spirituality, wither your investment of time and interest in the show you thought Lost was, but apparently wasn't? (As Ben said to Jacob last season: "What about me?" Maybe that's why you find it easy to angrily jab a knife into the heart of the show now that it's over) - paraphrased from "Doc" Jensen.
If the finale made anything clear, it's that you sometimes just have to let go. You don't always get all the answers. The biggest questions were answered and the story about these characters came to a close. Move on.
Yes, seriously. And I don't appreciate the mocking tone. You are no smarter or enlightened than I am. Many people feel the same as I do about this finale. You say the biggest questions were answered. My God, are YOU serious?! The biggest questions were NOT answered.
Sometimes you just have to let go? Sounds like a copout for poor storytelling. I just watched the finale last night, and believe me, I HAVE let go. I don't think another show will be able to get away with what LOST has pulled off throughout it's 6 year run.