Definitely a white/black battle going on. Good and bad. This episode was great at filling in many of the gaps for the show. I usually don't like shows to hold your hand, but I would still like some details shown, just to make things clear.
It was cool seeing that Jacob came in physical contact with all the losties at one point. Of course, that opens a new question. Why did he pick them? and why would he need them?
That 'friend' obviously needs to kill Jacob for some personal gain. Maybe it's a just a struggle between Egyptian Gods. That's probably what gets answered in the final season. I'm also assuming that next season will show us the timeline that results from what we saw last night. Who knows, maybe Daniel was right (and my previous theory was wrong).
I loved the scene where they ran into Bernard and Rose. Rose pointing out that all they do is constantly shoot at each other was funny. I got the impression that Bernard knew something, by the way he was trying to stop Juliet from leaving (offering the tea).
Also, seeing the Black Rock floating out there was great.
Good times... one year(well, 7 months or so) is a long damn time to wait!
That's the thing... these 'people' have been there the whole time, so I don't think they are a last second add-in. There has been mysterious dead people showing up for a long time.
It's actually really interesting now to think about Claire in the cabin. What if the Christian was Jacob and Claire was the other guy. That would explain the weird glare and smile she had.
Start thinking back on many of the instances, and there are many things that fit with this actually.
yeah I'm pretty sure all these clues were there this whole time. It's so freaking awesome how it was all planned out. there are SO many clues and so much foreshadowing and I'm even more convinced that the skeletons in s1 were bernard and rose
I'm not convinced Jacob and Loche 2.0 are enemies. What if they've been banished to the island and the only way for them to escape is to die but they're immortal and they can't kill each other. Maybe they're helping each other escape by finding ways to kill each other.
Or its like everyone suspects and they're locked in conflict. Even if that's the case I'm not sure Jacob is the poster boy for the light side.
I also get the feeling that the writers wrote themselves into the show as the pivotal characters.
"I'm actually Jacob!" "hee he guess who I am?"
So then this also means that Ben is still the Leader of the Others, right? That would be why AntiJacob (Locke 2) needed him, rather than just anyone on the island, to kill Jacob (because no one else could have requested an audience with him).
Did we know from before if Alpert was from the Black Rock? I forget. I know they showed him once with longer hair at some point in the past, but I don't remember when that was. Anyway, it seems like he probably was, which would mean he's been there since the very beginning of the chain of events that appears to have started around when Jacob and Anti-Jacob's conversation as the Black Rock was arriving took place.
What I'm wondering now is how Locke's father fits into all of it. Was it really him, brought to the island so Locke could kill him and become Leader (which would imply that James was brought to the island for his role in that), or was he just a form of the smoke/antijacob or some other illusion? And if it really was his father, does that mean that Ben had to kill Roger at some point too? And if didn't, could that have been part of why Jacob seemed to dismiss him? (Or was that just because the smoke saved him, or because he was never intended to even BE an Other, since Jacob doesn't seem to have chosen him directly?)
Also: If the black smoke is Anti-Jacob, what does that make the white flashes?
I dunno, I was kinda with this episode. I feel the casting for Jacob is very underwhelming (they should have got Christopher Walken! ) and I until I understand what his end game is, I don't know why he was picking those people in particular, so meh. Nice gun fights though. I knew Juliet would die eventually, and would do something very important eventually, just didn't know when.
I am intrigued by this black/white locke thing though...and also to see whether they caused or prevented the incident.
Maybe Jacob and his buddy are exiled gods or something? I do think they are enemies though...maybe the were exiled cause they had a big awesome dragonball z style battle in the sky and killed loads of innocent egyptians and were banished for it. lol.
nice catch on the herring/rock thing... and on the foot. I don't know if that means there are two statues, or if that was just a mistake on the show's part. The locations look different too though, either way
thats what I thought originally notman, they seem a little different (the statues feet themselves), but the location around the statues is obviously the same (look at the rocks)
Relentlessly unable to die in any normal sense. Always pivoting from saving people, to killing people outright. He's a fragmented character, unable to resolve the pieces.
He's John Locke, and Jeremy Bentham, two different philosophers of sorts. Locke more in favor of libertarian sort of ideals, and Bentham more utilitarian. Bentham also was the one to die btw 'life and death of Jeremy Bentham'
I'm starting to think the end of the show might be the resolution of these two forces inhabiting Locke and the Island.
Remember what Jack says to Richard... (paraphrasing) 'I wouldn't give up on Locke'.
This is even when Jack knows that Locke is 'dead'.
Well I wouldn't count him out either. I think he's got some surprises for us.
I fucking LOVE YOU GUYS! You all have great insight to all the statements you make! Lost rules me in so many ways! What a great episode, gives us so much food for thought. I have a question though. Who was the man that told Jacob that he wanted to kill him while Jacob was eating? Also, I want to commend Sawyer and his amazing acting, honestly...the best acting I have seen thus far in any series, it was so moving. So any thoughts on the guy who was talking shit to Jacob?
That's the guy we've been subtly mentioning. He's in the form of Locke now. I suspect he's been in some of the roles earlier, that we assumed were Jacob. For instance, Ben's daughter reappearing, was probably that guy (since Locke was separated from Ben moments earlier).
Bounchfx: yeah, I was looking at the rocks initially, but on the front corner, near the beach, I thought the rocks weren't visible in the new images, but actually they may be. So I'm beginning to think it was just an editing mistake (or intentional just to make sure we're still paying attention )
So when Jacob walks over to Locke after he's been tossed out of the window and says "I'm sorry this happened to you", does he mean:
- I'm sorry I'm bringing you back to life but leaving you paralyzed, sucks to be you, but its for a good reason.
or
- Wow getting tossed out a window by your dad, that has to be rough but good news is you're alive.
Did he leave Loche partially paralyzed or was that the extent of his "power". I'm also curious to see if jacob visited Loche in the chaos right after the crash while he was still out. Did he heal John the rest of the way?
No one has a name for the guy who talks to Jacob in the first part of the season ender. So far we only know that he's been impersonating Loche who is actually dead to exploit some loophole to kill Jacob. I've been calling him Loche 2.0 for now.
The island is the Garden of Eden. Jacob and "The Other Guy" (TOG) are either God & Satan or 2 (angelic?) guardians. This whole show is a test of humanity, to see if they're evolved enough to guard Eden or mature enough to deserve it.
My guesses & why:
The episode starts waaaay in the past with an old sail ship. Clearly, that makes Jacob & TOG immortal.
TOG states that the fact that Jacob brought them there.
It's also suggested that this WASN'T the 1st time that this test occurred.
Other people have been tested. Everybody has failed.
Jacob believes that man changes (improves?) with each failure. TOG doesn't agree. Obviously, they have competing goals.
The statue suggests that even ancient cultures were tested, possibly worshiping or rejecting Jacob or TOG as 2 opposing factions. (A result of their earliest test maybe.) This is also suggested by the existence of the temple.
Neither Jacob nor TOG can leave the island in their native forms. The loophole? Dead people. TOG is basically "The First Evil" from Buffy, who could only take the forms of dead people.
Maybe both Jacob and TOG are either aspects the smoke monster or 2 different ones. That explains why one kills brutally while the other one simply warned Ben & scared the crap out of him
In the first episode, Jack was ferrying back his father's dead body. His father is "alive", but only in the sense that TOG is body hopping or using dead people so that he can stack the deck & cheat on the test.
Miles can only hear dead people. Hurley sees dead people, but isn't crazy. Miles is the only legitimate psychic. Hurley is being manipulated by TOG via either bodies or spirits of dead people.
Locke is obviously dead. TOG is obviously using his form. He couldn't do that until Locke died. That's why Locke had to die, so that he could take his form.
In Season 4, Christian wouldn't turn the wheel in the Orchid & insisted that Locke do it. If this was TOG, he probably couldn't do it himself or was limited in what he could do while in the form of a dead person (eg. Christian).
Jacob ISN'T really dead. It's all part of the test to see if humans are still barbaric. Really. Are we expected to believe that a guy who could grant Richard with immortality would die so easily?
Richard was on that centuries old ship in the beginning scene. He's probably the closest that they came to finding somebody worthy of Eden. That's why he was made immortal and never leaves the island. The writers wouldn't show the sailing ship without any just cause. I'm thinking that's where Richard came from and why he became the intermediary between Jacob & the Others.
The fact that the island heals all major wounds and seems to constantly provide for the inhabitants would seem to suggest a paradise-like Eden.
The nuke didn't kill the Oceanic people. It shunted them back into 2007. That's why Richard THINKS he recalls seeing them die in 1977.
I think that this is all going to come down to a war between the Ocean passengers and the 2007 Others. I think that this will prove that humanity is still too barbaric. Flash forward to sometime in the future. Maybe 2012 or something. The game begins again and test continues. It's just a big game of chess. Dharma VS Others 1977. Oceanic VS Others 2007. Dharma VS Oceanic 1977.
That would also explain why TOG/Locke needed Ben to handle the knife. It was a test of mankind's continued barbarism. The war between the 2 factions on the island is even more proof of this. About the only 2 people who have learned better are the 2 retirees living in the jungle.
That's just my guess. Still sounds better then the old purgatory theory
It's the old Star Trek:TNG "humanity on trial by Q" story combined with both nature VS progress & good VS evil themes.
(Although he is wrong about Jacob not being able to leave the island; but the other guy might not be able to).
Also you guys are concentrating on the wrong thing; it is obviously the same statue. But...how did it get destroyed? Did the others destroy it? Sun didn't buy it when Ben told her it was like that when he got there. Also, the statue is that of Sobek, the god ancient egyptians credited with creating the world...so, Jacob is god and his buddy is Satan?
3) Neither Jacob nor TOG can leave the island in their native forms.
It depends on what their native form is. Smokey? Human who catches and eats fish? Clearly that form of Jacob can get off the island. As I think TOG can too. We'll probably see his involvement in their lives later next season, probably at dark moments.
I'm also pretty sure Jacob isn't dead. It's classic story telling "hero takes a punch to the gut, is down but not out, gets back up to kick the bad guys ass"
The thing with lost is its hard to tell who the hero is. People get punched then don't get up... and a new hero is revealed.
I think they can come and go as they please but the rest of the world doesn't hold their interest like the island. Why go hang out in the parking lot when the main event is taking place inside the stadium.
On the subject of the foot, if you overlay all 3 images that are from the same angle, they all line up pretty well. You can see the platform and the earth under it is the same place as well (whoever thought it was different).
Most of the plot is biblical, qu'ran and testament. Jacob went to Egypt to escape the famine, hence the egyptian theme. The only son that was not allowed to go to Egypt was Benjamin.
The plot is also science vs nature, I like Faraday and his theories on how to interupt the cycle of time travel. Its almost darwinists vs. religion. Which is very interesting.
Blenderhead, that quote is full of inaccuracies. It's like whoever wrote it sleeps during half the episodes. Half that stuff contradicts what we learned in the last episode alone!
A lot of the things I had felt more than knew, through intuition got proven !!!
It basically confirms why the Smoke monster visions had conflicting motives, because it was grooming them all, being directed by Jacob or (I'm going to call him Silas like he was in Deadwood cos thats cooler!) and thus sometimes trying to discern if they have the ability to follow orders without question and can live on faith alone as a guiding light in life, or do they have too much free will and are brave enough to think for themselves like Mr.Eko did when he met the smoke monster a 2nd time and was no longer passively scanning and testing him, it was instead offering an ultimatum.
I was always sure Ben had never seen Jacob, sure that wasn't the true Jacob in the lodge, but still wondering what the smaller lodge with the welcoming open door that only Hurley could find when he was scared by Jacob and ran.
I always felt that the face that looked out was a maddened and distorted John Locke, like no Locke we had ever seen or could imagine. Nice to know why, like I said, a very rewarding episode.
Incidentally, on the dvd the scene where Locke actually takes the time to explain the game in the pilot episode was cut but included on the extras. That may confirm the amount of time the writers debated including an explanation of the real story so early on. They settled in the end to just keep enough of that scene in to demonstrate that both Locke and Walt were special.
Ach anyway, brilliant fun, looking forward to the next season reboot.
Blenderhead, that quote is full of inaccuracies. It's like whoever wrote it sleeps during half the episodes. Half that stuff contradicts what we learned in the last episode alone!
Full of inaccuracies? I see one. (The fact that Jacob and Richard can in fact leave the island) I did actually state this in my post under the quote. Its the larger picture that I think he has got right.
I think he meant to say the other guy (maybe satan) can't leave the island. If the other guy is indeed manifesting himself as Christian, Locke 2, and others, it reminds me of when satan appeared as a snake in the garden of eden in the bible.
Most of the plot is biblical, qu'ran and testament. Jacob went to Egypt to escape the famine, hence the egyptian theme. The only son that was not allowed to go to Egypt was Benjamin.
this. There are constant references to the abrahamitic religions and especially to jacob's role (there even was a moses quote in the final if i didn't misheard it).
How about Ben sitting in Whidmore's bedroom, saying he wants to kill him but can't?
Ben has been an agent of Jacob without knowing it (ie. on faith) and Whidmore was an agent of Other Guy (knowingly? unknowingly?). Perhaps the rules that bind the competition between Jacob and other guy also extend to their proxies?
Also someone suggested the reason so many babies die on the island is because Facob (maybe satan) tries to manifest himself inside them as soon as they are born. If so, what about Aaron?
Also, I wonder if there is a relationship between Facob and the Dharma initiative torturer we all thought was Jacob for a while there?
Replies
Neo-Locke(& SmokeyAlex) is Black/Esau
all the visions and dead people walking around make sense now. Christian was trying to help most of them out, wasn't he?
the cabin contained esau/smokie, the good guys notice the clearing and head to jacob to tell him whats up.
That 'friend' obviously needs to kill Jacob for some personal gain. Maybe it's a just a struggle between Egyptian Gods. That's probably what gets answered in the final season. I'm also assuming that next season will show us the timeline that results from what we saw last night. Who knows, maybe Daniel was right (and my previous theory was wrong).
I loved the scene where they ran into Bernard and Rose. Rose pointing out that all they do is constantly shoot at each other was funny. I got the impression that Bernard knew something, by the way he was trying to stop Juliet from leaving (offering the tea).
Also, seeing the Black Rock floating out there was great.
Good times... one year(well, 7 months or so) is a long damn time to wait!
Also: Ille qui nos omnes servabit = He who will protect and save us all
I'm not sure I'm super into fake Locke/goatee Jacob guy yet. Let's throw in a dude to fix all our story issues seems a little like Faraday part 2.
Hopefully the ride will be worth it.
Rose/Bernard rocked the show too. Glad to see them back.
It's actually really interesting now to think about Claire in the cabin. What if the Christian was Jacob and Claire was the other guy. That would explain the weird glare and smile she had.
Start thinking back on many of the instances, and there are many things that fit with this actually.
Or its like everyone suspects and they're locked in conflict. Even if that's the case I'm not sure Jacob is the poster boy for the light side.
I also get the feeling that the writers wrote themselves into the show as the pivotal characters.
"I'm actually Jacob!" "hee he guess who I am?"
In season 2, it was the left foot of the statue, in the finale, it was the right.....
DUN DUN DUN!!!
Did we know from before if Alpert was from the Black Rock? I forget. I know they showed him once with longer hair at some point in the past, but I don't remember when that was. Anyway, it seems like he probably was, which would mean he's been there since the very beginning of the chain of events that appears to have started around when Jacob and Anti-Jacob's conversation as the Black Rock was arriving took place.
What I'm wondering now is how Locke's father fits into all of it. Was it really him, brought to the island so Locke could kill him and become Leader (which would imply that James was brought to the island for his role in that), or was he just a form of the smoke/antijacob or some other illusion? And if it really was his father, does that mean that Ben had to kill Roger at some point too? And if didn't, could that have been part of why Jacob seemed to dismiss him? (Or was that just because the smoke saved him, or because he was never intended to even BE an Other, since Jacob doesn't seem to have chosen him directly?)
Also: If the black smoke is Anti-Jacob, what does that make the white flashes?
Where did you hear that?! It looks like the same foot to me...
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Four-toed_statue
I am intrigued by this black/white locke thing though...and also to see whether they caused or prevented the incident.
Maybe Jacob and his buddy are exiled gods or something? I do think they are enemies though...maybe the were exiled cause they had a big awesome dragonball z style battle in the sky and killed loads of innocent egyptians and were banished for it. lol.
DUN DUN DUN!!!!
Jacob cooks a "red herring" on a "black rock."
ahem...wouldn't that be weird if jacob doesn't turn out to be dead, but reborn through claire's son?
some people are speculating two different statues, but who knows. One could be Sabec and the other some other god. Doubtful, but who know.
ooooh...nice catch
You know, I'm starting to think that Locke might end up inhabiting both sides of Jacob and Jacob's Enemy's positions.
Locke, always the manipulated, saved by light, and touched by darkness. A scar on one eye, that sees black, and the other light. http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/3/37/Lockeyeblackwhite.jpg (even check the backgammon pieces positions in the above photo)
Relentlessly unable to die in any normal sense. Always pivoting from saving people, to killing people outright. He's a fragmented character, unable to resolve the pieces.
He's John Locke, and Jeremy Bentham, two different philosophers of sorts. Locke more in favor of libertarian sort of ideals, and Bentham more utilitarian. Bentham also was the one to die btw 'life and death of Jeremy Bentham'
I'm starting to think the end of the show might be the resolution of these two forces inhabiting Locke and the Island.
Remember what Jack says to Richard... (paraphrasing) 'I wouldn't give up on Locke'.
This is even when Jack knows that Locke is 'dead'.
Well I wouldn't count him out either. I think he's got some surprises for us.
Bounchfx: yeah, I was looking at the rocks initially, but on the front corner, near the beach, I thought the rocks weren't visible in the new images, but actually they may be. So I'm beginning to think it was just an editing mistake (or intentional just to make sure we're still paying attention
- I'm sorry I'm bringing you back to life but leaving you paralyzed, sucks to be you, but its for a good reason.
or
- Wow getting tossed out a window by your dad, that has to be rough but good news is you're alive.
Did he leave Loche partially paralyzed or was that the extent of his "power". I'm also curious to see if jacob visited Loche in the chaos right after the crash while he was still out. Did he heal John the rest of the way?
No one has a name for the guy who talks to Jacob in the first part of the season ender. So far we only know that he's been impersonating Loche who is actually dead to exploit some loophole to kill Jacob. I've been calling him Loche 2.0 for now.
(Although he is wrong about Jacob not being able to leave the island; but the other guy might not be able to).
Also you guys are concentrating on the wrong thing; it is obviously the same statue. But...how did it get destroyed? Did the others destroy it? Sun didn't buy it when Ben told her it was like that when he got there. Also, the statue is that of Sobek, the god ancient egyptians credited with creating the world...so, Jacob is god and his buddy is Satan?
I'm also pretty sure Jacob isn't dead. It's classic story telling "hero takes a punch to the gut, is down but not out, gets back up to kick the bad guys ass"
The thing with lost is its hard to tell who the hero is. People get punched then don't get up... and a new hero is revealed.
I think they can come and go as they please but the rest of the world doesn't hold their interest like the island. Why go hang out in the parking lot when the main event is taking place inside the stadium.
So, it's definitely the left foot.
Richard can leave the island.
and recruit juliet..
god, I can't wait to rewatch the series. there is SO MUCH SHIT to catch!
The plot is also science vs nature, I like Faraday and his theories on how to interupt the cycle of time travel. Its almost darwinists vs. religion. Which is very interesting.
A lot of the things I had felt more than knew, through intuition got proven !!!
It basically confirms why the Smoke monster visions had conflicting motives, because it was grooming them all, being directed by Jacob or (I'm going to call him Silas like he was in Deadwood cos thats cooler!) and thus sometimes trying to discern if they have the ability to follow orders without question and can live on faith alone as a guiding light in life, or do they have too much free will and are brave enough to think for themselves like Mr.Eko did when he met the smoke monster a 2nd time and was no longer passively scanning and testing him, it was instead offering an ultimatum.
I was always sure Ben had never seen Jacob, sure that wasn't the true Jacob in the lodge, but still wondering what the smaller lodge with the welcoming open door that only Hurley could find when he was scared by Jacob and ran.
I always felt that the face that looked out was a maddened and distorted John Locke, like no Locke we had ever seen or could imagine. Nice to know why, like I said, a very rewarding episode.
Incidentally, on the dvd the scene where Locke actually takes the time to explain the game in the pilot episode was cut but included on the extras. That may confirm the amount of time the writers debated including an explanation of the real story so early on. They settled in the end to just keep enough of that scene in to demonstrate that both Locke and Walt were special.
Ach anyway, brilliant fun, looking forward to the next season reboot.
Full of inaccuracies? I see one. (The fact that Jacob and Richard can in fact leave the island) I did actually state this in my post under the quote. Its the larger picture that I think he has got right.
I think he meant to say the other guy (maybe satan) can't leave the island. If the other guy is indeed manifesting himself as Christian, Locke 2, and others, it reminds me of when satan appeared as a snake in the garden of eden in the bible.
I dunno, its possible.
this. There are constant references to the abrahamitic religions and especially to jacob's role (there even was a moses quote in the final if i didn't misheard it).
Ben has been an agent of Jacob without knowing it (ie. on faith) and Whidmore was an agent of Other Guy (knowingly? unknowingly?). Perhaps the rules that bind the competition between Jacob and other guy also extend to their proxies?
1) I think he can only impersonate the dead. That's why John Locke had to die.
But
2) What about those mysterious Walt appearances? (Although, they have made mention of him having some kind of power in previous seasons)
@Blenderhead, as for the 'full of inaccuracies' you are either 100% correct, or 100% full of shit. :poly122::angel:
Also someone suggested the reason so many babies die on the island is because Facob (maybe satan) tries to manifest himself inside them as soon as they are born. If so, what about Aaron?
Also, I wonder if there is a relationship between Facob and the Dharma initiative torturer we all thought was Jacob for a while there?
Damnit...January is too far away!