im always surprised to see the lack of reflection over their own art, many high profile artist in this community seem to have. with all the fancy talk about the importance of accepting criticism to develop as an artist, people sure do get very defensive. if you would spend countless hours sculpting, modeling and texturing a model, why not spend at least a couple of them developing a better design then "girl with hot body and big boobs".
i understand that the buisness people in most AAA companies feel the need to cater the games to the 14 year old boys of the world (actually of the USA, but thats a different issue), but its sad to see that many artists have that mindset aswell. cant we have higher ambitions than that? to make a overused comparisson, if the movie industry was in the same state as the games industry, michael bay would win every oscar.
when will the reign of meat end?
Well I would do such things, just for the sake or irritating others. What is better reward, that looking at people who circle jerk at your art that it being controversial. Free advertising I say.
In terms of artists choices for what they are creating either personal art or industry art I don’t feel it’s ever fair to point the finger at the individual artist (unless they say they are trying to make women feel bad or something equally absurd). Their design choices could stem from any number of reasons. For example, if you are arguing that most games objectify women, then in order to get a job from company X, shouldn’t you show that you can portray a female in said style?
Anyway, I’m not saying that’s what you should do its only one example. I could see someone with different design choices actually standing out more in some cases.
As a side note: If you are fighting for women’s rights and trying to change things in video games the goal should be to educate and point out how things could change for the better. Calling individuals out, name calling, getting all pissed and mean about it doesn’t really do anything but further the divide on either side.
If things do change where less people are offended I think that’s great. But if you are offended over this female character in Bioshock I’m sorry to say, I think you will never be happy.
I'm not seeing too much objectification of women in American/European games lately, with the push toward a more mature and realistic look in games theres a lot less scantily clad women in games. Pretty much the only sexy female I can think of is Moxxie from Borderlands and her design is completely intentional and meant to be a satire of 'old west madame'
That said, I feel like there are a lot more sexualized characters in Japanese games. Dead or Alive, Soul Calibur, Tekken, some Final Fantasy, Dragon's Crown. I mean have you seen the boob physics in Soul Calibur?
As far as that goes theres not much we can do as artists to change the gaming landscape in the Japanese game industry
My own opinion on the subject is that YES sometimes character are oversexualised in a way that I find it not of very good taste. BUT I feel that some people are bashing on some beautifull character with great artistic directions/stylisation only because they are curvy or seductive.
A female character with big booty and big boobs doesn't mean bad design, just as a female character with no boobs and no ass mean a good one.
I think we are making huge progress when it come to strong female character in video games with character like Ellie from the last of us, Elizabeth from Bioshock etc.
Those games have character developement, personality,Those female characters are not seen as object throughout the game and making elizabeth curvy is nothing close from offensive.
Ouais, agreed 100%, but the "some people are bashing..." thing is just noise. Every controversial and heated discussion will have lots of it, so we need to try not to mistake the noise for signal.
Youtube and Kotaku comments are unfortunately 99% noise, so that's a very bad starting point for an intelligent debate. Tends to lower it to knee-jerk reactions and then we don't get anywhere...
Oxynary said it first. Large, muscle bound male characters are a male power fantasy. It does not count as objectification of men. Has a video game ever even had a nude male character in it? I know that StarBreeze Studios Escape from Butcher Bay had nude characters in it at one point, before the censors got to it. We objectify women constantly in the game industry and I have trouble thinking of a single situation where a male was objectified.
The worse part is, it extends beyond the content of the games. Just look at the extreme misogyny that occurs in the convention circuit. This is a toxic environment. One of the ways to fix the problem is to get more female game developers but as long as this kind of atmosphere is normal, that is going to be difficult.
Oxynary said it first. Large, muscle bound male characters are a male power fantasy. It does not count as objectification of men. Has a video game ever even had a nude male character in it? I know that StarBreeze Studios Escape from Butcher Bay had nude characters in it at one point, before the censors got to it. We objectify women constantly in the game industry and I have trouble thinking of a single situation where a male was objectified.
The worse part is, it extends beyond the content of the games. Just look at the extreme misogyny that occurs in the convention circuit. This is a toxic environment. One of the ways to fix the problem is to get more female game developers but as long as this kind of atmosphere is normal, that is going to be difficult.
Reiterating a point doesn't make it right, why not try addressing the arguments against that instead of just reciting a mantra and believing only your perception is the correct one.
what videogames have had male nudity? off the top of my head, GTA (lost and damned), dragon age and amnesia dark descent, oh and I saw some penis's on the statues in rome 2! lol.
I only skimmed through most of the thread, so if any of this was said already, oups.
In all honesty, the problem with sexism in video games is societies views on sexism as a whole. It has nothing to do with games, but how society views sexism.
Sexism is terrible, if it's in favour of men. But if it's in favour of women, everything is A-OK. Let me explain...
*disclaimer... When I say Women, I mean the women who have an all these issues with sexism. I know not every woman thinks like this*
Women are absolutely disgusted by all the stereotypes of a hot woman. They hate that they have to look thin and toned and all that jazz. They hate that women always have big boobs in movies and games. They tend to hate it all. But then they have no problem with the stereotypical hot guy. Most lead roles in games or movies are muscular men. These beefed up muscles are essentially the male version of big boobs. You can argue it, but it's true. Either way, both genders have that typical "hot body". It's just more acceptable for men to have to look like that. Girls oogle over guys just as much as guys oogle over girls. I know more women that have said they want to see a movie because it has a hot guy in than i know guys who wanted to see a movie cause of a hot girl. Girls are plenty shallow about looks, its just more socially acceptable for them to do so. How many of you know women that lost their shit when this movie came out?
Another example of sexism being ok if its in favour of the women.... I`m an overweight male. If any of you are also, Im willing to bet you`ve experienced this too..... The number of times a woman has said to me "You`re a big guy..." (in reference to my body size :P)... Yes, I`m a big guy, and you just called me fat in a "nice" way. Still hurts my feelings though. Thanks for that. But hey, apparently it's ok for gals to say that to guys. Don't believe me? The next overweight girl you see, tell her she's a big girl. I garentee you that shit will hit the fan.
It's socially acceptable to judge men based on looks. And of course, you get all these commercials / ads, and all these facebook posts about real women having curves.... If everything I was saying was false, then pics like this wouldn't pop up. Other guys have felt the same things i have.
All this is why I really don't side with women complaining about this stuff. They do it too, yet get away with it. Yes, I agree that we need more women leads in games. But don't complain about their body type of you arent going to complain about mens body types either. How often do you see a scrawny guy, or a fat guy as your lead?
Treat others how you wish to be treated....
And yes, I fully believe in equal rights. I just don't see these arguements are fighting for them. Not when men are judged daily without a care or second thought.
Wow, it's crazy how many men in this thread are terrible at understanding 'objectification'.
Imagine if every guy was judged by their income, and nothing else. Then imagine every media source telling you that if you don't drive a Maserati, you are less of a man, and won't attract women. Imagine there is absolutely NO way to hide it, and your bank account number and income levels are just plainly open for everyone to see.
Every Advertisement on TV, every magazine ad telling you that anything less than a $500k salary you should just kill yourself. Every movie showing only men that can win the heart of any woman as long as they're wealthy. If you have a moderate income, you're likely the villain of every Disney movie.
Imagine you are told by everyone that NOTHING matters about you, your experiences, your passions, ONLY your income, and that's it. And envision that its socially acceptable for women to open laugh at how little income you make.
There's lot of points completely being missed here, and the understanding of what objectification is to women is not really being understood by most of the men posting pics of He-man.
It's not about a single model or a single whatever ... it's about a lifetime of shit that women have to put up with and men laugh about it and wonder why they can't stop whining.
A He-Man doll or some fat dude being embarrassed to take off his shirt is not even remotely in the same ballpark. To go Pulp Fiction, it's not even in the same city. It's not even the same SPORT.
I guess that leads to the question of "What can be done about this?"
I feel as if even talking about the topic does nothing as some kind of action would probably have to be done. I could try to set an example with work, but all of my zbrush sculpts look like turds so that is probably not the best way to do something about it.
I think a great start would be to acknowledge the issue and not hand wave it away with snark and funny gifs whenever it comes up. Respect it. Talk about it.
Wow, it's crazy how many men in this thread are terrible at understanding 'objectification'.
Imagine if every guy was judged by their income, and nothing else. Then imagine every media source telling you that if you don't drive a Maserati, you are less of a man, and won't attract women. Imagine there is absolutely NO way to hide it, and your bank account number and income levels are just plainly open for everyone to see.
Every Advertisement on TV, every magazine ad telling you that anything less than a $500k salary you should just kill yourself. Every movie showing only men that can win the heart of any woman as long as they're wealthy. If you have a moderate income, you're likely the villain of every Disney movie.
Imagine you are told by everyone that NOTHING matters about you, your experiences, your passions, ONLY your income, and that's it. And envision that its socially acceptable for women to open laugh at how little income you make.
There's lot of points completely being missed here, and the understanding of what objectification is to women is not really being understood by most of the men posting pics of He-man.
Yes, Jacqui, now imagine those same men judged purely on their bank account going up to all the low imcome women and telling them they have a tiny balance / bank account in a tone that sounds positive. Same shit that happens in the world today.
Wow, it's crazy how many men in this thread are terrible at understanding 'objectification'.
Imagine if every guy was judged by their income, and nothing else. Then imagine every media source telling you that if you don't drive a Maserati, you are less of a man, and won't attract women. Imagine there is absolutely NO way to hide it, and your bank account number and income levels are just plainly open for everyone to see.
Every Advertisement on TV, every magazine ad telling you that anything less than a $500k salary you should just kill yourself. Every movie showing only men that can win the heart of any woman as long as they're wealthy. If you have a moderate income, you're likely the villain of every Disney movie.
Imagine you are told by everyone that NOTHING matters about you, your experiences, your passions, ONLY your income, and that's it. And envision that its socially acceptable for women to open laugh at how little income you make.
There's lot of points completely being missed here, and the understanding of what objectification is to women is not really being understood by most of the men posting pics of He-man.
So your saying the objectification of men how they have to be rich or successful according to mainstream society is okay because we can hide it....
Like someone really can't workout my socio-economic wealth by my trainers, what clothes im wearing what watch I own or don't own or cellphone etc
I have no doubt women are disproportionately objectified throughout human history and most widely in modern societies by the media.
Making presumptions on what people understand isn't generally a good idea to intelligently debate such things, we understand the objectification of women as we do men, why is it so wrong to say that the media in general creates unrealistic societal values across gender and race lines, why do you have to narrow it so towards women.
I think more over disproportionately black people are under represented in video games or when they are seem to be too stereotypically cast as a "gangsta" a rare exception to this rule I can think of is Louis from left 4 dead.
Of course I could easily point to your resume and your own personal sexaul objectification of women and call you a hypocrite, but I don't feel that's overly constructive as a whole, but what are we going to do ultimately in your ideal world, censor artists such as yourself if we deem their work offensive?.
And furthermore there are plenty of societies that a woman can hide her image, they just tend to be the most oppressive societies towards women on earth.
Wow, it's crazy how many men in this thread are terrible at understanding 'objectification'.
It's also crazy how those who claim to understand objectification can't accept that it does happen to men too. People can't go around claiming that objectification is bad and dehumanizes women while at the same time patronizing others who claims it happens to both parties. That would only be a case of hypocrisy. Is it worse for women? Absolutely. Should we ignore the other side of the coin because it involves a minority? That would only be ironic considering feminists are working for 'equality'.
By the way, I wonder, having seen these calendars of firefighters and policemen for years. Are you seriously telling me they are made as a male power fantasy?
I'm not trying to bend this into a "bohoo, me too"-response. I'm just tired of seeing feminists on the internet claiming to fight for equality but who use misandry undertones to run their agenda. If you can't accept, no matter how unbalanced it can be, that something happens to both parties, you can never achieve equality.
Can't we work together to lessen both objectification and power fantasies of both parties and aim for quality in game development instead?
Honestly? I think we already are moving toward a solution on this issue. Maybe it's moving too slow, but I think that people are changing this. We're continually seeing better female characters in games and movies, and more and more people are aware of the problem. On a personal level I think more people are conscious of the issue and are making an effort to create characters that are not objectifications.
I mean, in my short lifetime I have noticed huge leaps in the right direction here. Blatantly sexualized characters will never disappear completely but I think it won't be long until women are no more objectified than men. Maybe I'm just an optimist though.
Should you have to make 100% of people happy all the time? No. That is ridiculous.
The same reason why no matter what there will always be an issue with this anyway you slide the bar.
You win people will bitch, you loose people will bitch.
My opinion best posts in this thread.
Tits x2 & JacqueChoi
Objectification to women is the same as slavery still is to many blacks, don't mean to steer this there but it is just an example.
There is that vibe that always lingers around with some people of how they were conditioned to think, yes we are conditioned to think certain things, hence advertisements in any form. Luckily for me i am not affected by these tools, i feel they are inferior and do not work on me, i can't speak for anyone else though.
Back on topic:
Ever see a really nice lady walk by, ever want to check out her ass there you go being the objectifying male at his best, though aren't we supposed to check out the goods before we buy/purchase or approach what we are interested in?
I am just going to state that the other day in the city i saw this amazing looking woman and she was covered from head to toe and i was instantly floored and was immediately attracted to her and she was wearing glasses and reading a book, I have eclectic taste, been with small, chubby, fat, skinny. I look for good women through and through and we pretty much all look for someone good in the end.
There is a connection loss of consideration for others when it comes to the sexual interest most men have when they view a female of interest for the first time.
It is usually negative in the objectification department no matter how you look at it because we like what we like.. And most of us men like women naked, it is messed up but it is in reality just there overwhelming beauty of them in there birthday suit and even women say it as well there is MORE to look at on a female than a male...
So i doubt this battle will ever be resolved, lets say you win, then what?
no more porn, no more bubbly women, no more magazines, no more strip clubs, no more nude scenes in movies, no more keeping the lights on when doing the naughty dance...
Carry on?
Prepare for dickyness.
This is what i was going to post and thought who cares why not add this in anyway.
I am just curious though how this topic even came to be did a guy start this or did a girl?
or did a girl get into a guys head to create this in the first place and now he's all about her goal?
Or was it a father who decided that his old ways are no longer appropriate now that he has a little girl? hmmm, yea...
Also that game footage posted earlier was obviously trolling and if not they were just playing with a man's scrotum to gain a profitable advantage over everyone of the dudes that goes to play that game, in-turn screwing over the very people those of you are upset at... who objectify women.
I think maybe some men have lost there sacks, i mean i love women and i love them more naked cause i am attracted to the opposite sex and it isn't that i love to see big bubbling body parts or use women as objects it is their grace and how god damn loving they can be as well as how damn soft they are.
I know also many are smart and i am not looking past that but the reality is you don't date a person your not attracted to or do you?
I once did it and it turned out to be the WORST experaince of my life so i want the same people bitching to give going out with someone your not attracted to a try and see what the result is.
Why do i bring this up the situation is simple cause people like pretty things, be it cars, jewelry, money, anything & EVERYONE does It!
Your bullshitting if you claim to not be even a little bit shallow and also claiming to be perfect on top of that, which no one is.
By the way, I wonder, having seen these calendars of firefighters and policemen for years. Are you seriously telling me they are made as a male power fantasy?
The image society expects women to meet also happens to be a leading cause of anorexia and other eating disorders. With men, however, it's not so much the case. Photoshopped magazine covers which give off the a literally impossible image to achieve gets into the minds of young girls at a very, very young age.
We've all seen this gif everywhere:
Feminism isn't about hating on men and blaming anything that has a penis. It's about equal rights. Of course you've got radical feminists who'll lecture you if you so much as hold the door open for them out of politeness, but a radical anything is never good. Go read a book, open your horizons a little, and maybe, MAYBE you'll begin to understand that women have a just reason to want their rights just as we've always had.
Thanks, Jacque, I want to buy you a beer. Someone who understands.
The image society expects women to meet also happens to be a leading cause of anorexia and other eating disorders. With men, however, it's not so much the case.
Lies damned, lies, its a issue that transcends gender whether you like it or not, why is embracing both sides of the coin such a problem? and why are men immediately blamed as the problem for this as if we alone have somehow perpetuated the culture we find ourselves in, near No MEN are buying these magazines that perpetuate this unrealistic photoshopped female ideal, these magazines and their articles are predominantly written by, created, and featured by women, not in any way to justify it just to give more clarification.
Disproportionately society does make it worse for women, no doubt there, but to say this isn't a issue that transcends gender or that men are somehow different to women when it comes to vanity, media imagery, sexual/financial worth, self esteem or how they are affected by mainstream media is fundamentally sexist.
you should try promoting equality, not supremacy and devalue others opinions or feelings of being objectified simply because of their gender.
Look, comparing what men deal with to what women deal with is asinine. Please stop that.
I don't know if it is? Saying every single woman is singled out and has to deal with the levels we are speaking of is a bit drastic. I think it really depends on where you go and how you deal with things.
I think women in general are more sensitive to the issues at hand and thus react differently.
Just wanna say that for me, the whole male power fantasy thing is a load of shit. Presenting an impossible physical "ideal" for men to aspire to doesn't get me going, it never did, it made me feel alienated and weak.
I only felt included when my character could perform an action I wanted them to, and to me the gender/race of that character doesn't matter as long as I can feel empowered through my actions in the game, as if I matter.
Aesthetics is one thing, I feel uncomfortable playing as a super beefy jacked up guy or a super handsome guy same way I feel odd about playing as an attractive woman or some beefed up warrior queen. It's part of the reason I don't enjoy Gears of War or Uncharted anymore and can't finish Bayonetta.
But I can't ignore the fact that in those games you're still capable of getting things done, and to some extent I guess that's why Metroid and Halo are more appealing to me, both characters are kind of faceless and their skills are a result of tertiary powers from a suit, so it's not some physical ideal.
I dunno I'm rambling a bit. What do you guys think could be a solution towards people feeling less alienated then? Make every character in games an amorphous blob which players can select the race and gender for based on some options?
Saints Row does a neat job of being inclusive, but it only works because the game is designed the way it is.
If someone were to make a game based on the life of Genghis Khan, could that game ever be 100% inclusive? Should they change the history it's based on to be more appealing to the masses or stick with their vision at the cost of alienating some players and potentially offending others?
It honestly seems like it's all about reaching a balance where everyone feels like they lose despite actually winning :P
Aesthetics is one thing, I feel uncomfortable playing as a super beefy jacked up guy or a super handsome guy same way I feel odd about playing as an attractive woman or some beefed up warrior queen. It's part of the reason I don't enjoy Gears of War or Uncharted anymore and can't finish Bayonetta.
That's one thing that bothered me about Skyrim, you just have a body size slider, and your only options are skinny buff or bulky buff, with some options in between. Every NPC, even homeless people, are ripped once you steal their stuff.
Wow, it's crazy how many men in this thread are terrible at understanding 'objectification'.
Imagine if every guy was judged by their income, and nothing else. Then imagine every media source telling you that if you don't drive a Maserati, you are less of a man, and won't attract women. Imagine there is absolutely NO way to hide it, and your bank account number and income levels are just plainly open for everyone to see.
Every Advertisement on TV, every magazine ad telling you that anything less than a $500k salary you should just kill yourself. Every movie showing only men that can win the heart of any woman as long as they're wealthy. If you have a moderate income, you're likely the villain of every Disney movie.
Imagine you are told by everyone that NOTHING matters about you, your experiences, your passions, ONLY your income, and that's it. And envision that its socially acceptable for women to open laugh at how little income you make.
There's lot of points completely being missed here, and the understanding of what objectification is to women is not really being understood by most of the men posting pics of He-man.
I get what you're saying but income really does matter a lot for guys even if TV ads aren't saying it
I get what you're saying but income really does matter a lot for guys even if TV ads aren't saying it
from OKCupid's userbase
It was an example of his, to get a point across. Also, OkCupid is hardly a reliable source for a study, especially considering wealth/success has so many variable factors when you apply them to dating sites, where physical image is one of the most important factors.
While men can suffer from muscle dysmorphia and feeling bad for being overweight, women not only have to deal with body image, but unfair wages, sexual harassment, gender-specific professions and so on. Women have had hundreds of years of being oppressed for being female. Men have always dominated society.
Yes, men have to deal with the ideal body type, but women have had to put up with more shit for their entire lives. I don't think its fair to consider what men go through equal to a woman's plight. Unless we are strictly speaking about body image and not the myriad other gender issues. I'd like to see a study for both genders of how many struggle with the 'ideal body type' and if it really does skew more towards women.
I don't know if it is? Saying every single woman is singled out and has to deal with the levels we are speaking of is a bit drastic. I think it really depends on where you go and how you deal with things.
I think women in general are more sensitive to the issues at hand and thus react differently.
I agree with Jesse and think there is no reason a person needs to get so worked up over this specific issue. I understand its part of a greater issue, but there is no limit to how far you can take this if you choose to.
My own personal experience: My wife and I compete in bodybuilding (My wife in bikini). Now before anyone flips out and says she is contributing to objectifying women. Bodybuilding has helped her a lot with various issues in her past, and she has begun to find a healthy balance in her life thanks to it.
Me, I gain 60+ lbs in the offseason. Go to extremes where I know it makes me look bad, so that I can have a better end result at the next show which lasts for a single day. I guess I have a deep seeded desire to be some comic book hero or some shit. Point is, I know first hand I push myself to the limits and well beyond what the average person does. Its extremely important to me. I can compare myself to the pros and I know Ill never get there no matter how hard I try. But it doesnt deter me from trying. I dont get offended by bodybuilders much better than me even though I know much of it is based solely on genetics.
Bottom line, like Jesse said, everyone will react differently to different situations. You can have everything and be in total misery. Tough times dont come based on what gender you are born with. Comparing men to women is perfectly valid. This doesnt mean things cant be improved across the line, but you cant speak in such generalities is all.
I really do understand why some people stand up when they see characters that are oversexualised and I agree that it is still an issue that still needs to be talked about.
Tho as I character artist I think that women (and men!) body are BEAUTIFULL.
Women's body have such amazing natural flow of curves and as character artist we like to see and reproduce those.
When making those curvy and seducing female character most of the time there is no other intention then to make aesthetically pleasing character to the eye of the player, female or male.
After that if it's gonna be objectified or not is up to how the game presents it and finally how the player perceive it.
If you really want to go against game that objectify woman I would say Dead or alive would be a good choice..!
Never played the game haha but It does looks like the game present the female character as an object and so does the player :P
Lies damned, lies, its a issue that transcends gender whether you like it or not, why is embracing both sides of the coin such a problem? and why are men immediately blamed as the problem for this as if we alone have somehow perpetuated the culture we find ourselves in, near No MEN are buying these magazines that perpetuate this unrealistic photoshopped female ideal, these magazines and their articles are predominantly written by, created, and featured by women, not in any way to justify it just to give more clarification.
Disproportionately society does make it worse for women, no doubt there, but to say this isn't a issue that transcends gender or that men are somehow different to women when it comes to vanity, media imagery, sexual/financial worth, self esteem or how they are affected by mainstream media is fundamentally sexist.
you should try promoting equality, not supremacy and devalue others opinions or feelings of being objectified simply because of their gender.
Lol. "Men" read these all the time. You think Maxim and Playboy don't photoshop?
Since we all seem to be relying on external videos to make our point. The season finale of South Park addressed this issue perfectly.
Idealization of the human body isn't a new thing. So why all the rage against it now? Maybe that we can see obesity rising together with affluence has something to do with it. I'm thinking people are just a little jealous.
I totally agree about not pleasing everyone, its impossible.
I think the perfect example is the Noir Elizabeth from Bioshock. Obviously some people got offended, who knows if they're male or female. Her wardrobe isn't revealing at all but the issue is that her waist is a little small and her bust is a little big. I don't think she's sexualized to a distasteful point, and a few women who have posted in this thread aren't offended either. She's not dressed up like Ivy from Soul Calibur for crying out loud.
BigJohn: You may have a point. I mean pretty much every Greek statue is of some buff naked guy and the Greeks have put up with it for centuries! And they're considered works of art too! How come Michelangelo isn't slandered because of David?
I also feel like everyone has some aspect of beauty the objectify in someway, butt, bone structure, height, weight, dimples, freckles, collar bones, hair color. A few hundred years ago being fat was a sign of wealthy and power.
I think the problems arises when there's basically one variation that is deemed perfect by society, media, and culture, and everyone else is flawed. And when there is pressure to conform to the standard.
I would be lying if I said I didn't objectify the guy on the left. That's what I initially find attractive in a person, and there's nothing wrong with that. Even if you are only initially attracted to more "ideal" forms of beauty. That isn't inherently the problem.
I find it very strange that many games do not have any variation in body types, it really creeps me out, and this is a really common issue.
It was an example of his, to get a point across. Also, OkCupid is hardly a reliable source for a study, especially considering wealth/success has so many variable factors when you apply them to dating sites, where physical image is one of the most important factors.
It's not a study its just user data and what is wrong with it? Researchers have used hotornot.com for research papers and articles, getting access to a big database of user data like this is actually really valuable for seeing patterns of behavior in real life rather than just survey data
OkCupid does some great data research on their user base. Most people don't have access to that kind of data, and they do great blogs on it, that have numbers backing them. All they show is trends, but it's a good starting point.
Entirely valid argument mate, Men no doubt read and perpetuate the societal objectification of women through Playboy maxim etc, but as do women Objectifying themselves, in all these various vanity and fashion magazines, to from a outsiders perspective a sickening degree, with their fashion tips, weight loss promotion etc, does it make it right?
entirely not, I was mainly trying to make the point this isn't a men vs women issue, this goes far beyond gender lines and into unrealistic depictions of people through the media which warp our perceptions and values on what is attractive, or ideal.
Edit: Oh yeah and that was a fantastic episode of southpark with a meaningful yet harrowing ending.
It was an example of his, to get a point across. Also, OkCupid is hardly a reliable source for a study, especially considering wealth/success has so many variable factors when you apply them to dating sites, where physical image is one of the most important factors.
It was based on income not image. Taking into account that there will be physically attractive/un at every level of imcome. It would still average out to a medium point. Thus the results still show a trend.
If you assume its based on who suffers the most, right behind natives you have white males. Females are a fraction in every case.
However, I don't believe its based on who is treated the worse in society at all. Its all about how you handle stress and your external world. Just trying to support my theory that women shouldn't be so sensitive when it comes to games specifically. Especially not this Bioshock female character.
Someone tried to tell me that Women having big breasts, and skinny wastes, is Men pushing their ideals on women; this made it unacceptable. And that Men being Muscley is Men pushing their ideals on themselves; and so it's their own fault, and not as big of a deal. I think that is the most absurd argument in the world. Men aren't some group that operates as a single unit. Even if this "Male Power Fantasy" is a legitimate concept, it does not apply to all Men, and it can make men feel insecure in the same way the Woman-As-A-Sexual-Fantasy thing does.
It almost seems like these concepts are being imposed upon us from something outside. Like they are living on through their own will, and not by the will of the people. As a feminine sort of Male, sure, media sometimes makes me wonder and feel insecure about my less-than-masculine image. But most of the time I love my less than Masculine Image. The media largely sucks and perpetuates images that society as a whole may not even support, and through their omnipresence, they get people to support those images.
One thing that has always bothered me are the "Real women are curvy" arguments. No, real women are whatever they are. I know plenty of skinny women who are naturally that way, and I know plenty of curvy women who are the same. Just because a women is skinny doesn't mean she's conforming to men's sexual fantasies. She's just being herself.
And I never did like the term feminism; I feel like it should be something less polarizing, like "Equalism" or something. Gender Equality. I understand the meaning of the word is different than the perception, but so many people I know won't touch that word with a ten foot pole because of the negative connotations. Don't go near a feminist blog on tumblr, if you don't want to Rage quit the internet, for instance. Scum of the Earth, some of them. So full of hate. I'm sure there are a fair share of great intelligent feminist blogs on their too, but there's too much to wade through.
At any rate, I understand the hostility people can feel about this, from both sides. But hostility solves nothing. And I think Bioshock is maybe the worst example of sexism in a game. Maybe ever. Oh, another thing. I do think sexism applies very much so to both sexes; Women are just delegated to the submissive position, while Men are delegated to the dominant. And besides, we need to stop differentiating so much. Sexism will continue so long as we keep segregating the genders. And throughout this thread there's been a lot of "Don't even try comparing Women's suffering with men's" sorts of comments. I don't think that helps things.
This is Polycount. I think most of us are trying to understand, and to state our viewpoints respectfully. To meet that with hostility would be a discourtesy.
Also, we need to start a revolution against the meat and the woodland fellows. Salami.
If anything here offends anyone, I probably just didn't word something clearly enough.
A video game character is fluff in terms of equality for women. It's a fictional character in a fictional story based on an era when women ACTUALLY were heavily objectified. Designers will stop designing those characters when those character designs stop selling.
Men are also just as objectified as women in video games. Most women like muscles, how many muscle bound men do you see in games? Also, considering the ratio of male characters to female, how much more often are males objectified?
I think the whole fiasco stems more from confusion over gender identity than a legitimate social movement. Almost every woman I know claims to be a "feminist", but 80% of them confess to crying their way out of a speeding ticket. Conversely I've lost count of how many "nice" guys I've seen lose their girlfriend to some asshole who (surprise) acted more masculine.
Somewhere along the line, "feminists" (and this applies to both genders) need to figure out that a person can express their gender and still be progressive.
The only reason people are ticked over Bioshock is because it's popular and they see a potential target to raise awareness on. Meanwhile there's trash spewing out of Asia that's absurdly objectifying and it's dismissed as "cultural". (Just because it's exotic doesn't mean it's not sexist.)
Replies
Well I would do such things, just for the sake or irritating others. What is better reward, that looking at people who circle jerk at your art that it being controversial. Free advertising I say.
Anyway, I’m not saying that’s what you should do its only one example. I could see someone with different design choices actually standing out more in some cases.
As a side note: If you are fighting for women’s rights and trying to change things in video games the goal should be to educate and point out how things could change for the better. Calling individuals out, name calling, getting all pissed and mean about it doesn’t really do anything but further the divide on either side.
If things do change where less people are offended I think that’s great. But if you are offended over this female character in Bioshock I’m sorry to say, I think you will never be happy.
That said, I feel like there are a lot more sexualized characters in Japanese games. Dead or Alive, Soul Calibur, Tekken, some Final Fantasy, Dragon's Crown. I mean have you seen the boob physics in Soul Calibur?
As far as that goes theres not much we can do as artists to change the gaming landscape in the Japanese game industry
Ouais, agreed 100%, but the "some people are bashing..." thing is just noise. Every controversial and heated discussion will have lots of it, so we need to try not to mistake the noise for signal.
Youtube and Kotaku comments are unfortunately 99% noise, so that's a very bad starting point for an intelligent debate. Tends to lower it to knee-jerk reactions and then we don't get anywhere...
The worse part is, it extends beyond the content of the games. Just look at the extreme misogyny that occurs in the convention circuit. This is a toxic environment. One of the ways to fix the problem is to get more female game developers but as long as this kind of atmosphere is normal, that is going to be difficult.
Reiterating a point doesn't make it right, why not try addressing the arguments against that instead of just reciting a mantra and believing only your perception is the correct one.
what videogames have had male nudity? off the top of my head, GTA (lost and damned), dragon age and amnesia dark descent, oh and I saw some penis's on the statues in rome 2! lol.
In all honesty, the problem with sexism in video games is societies views on sexism as a whole. It has nothing to do with games, but how society views sexism.
Sexism is terrible, if it's in favour of men. But if it's in favour of women, everything is A-OK. Let me explain...
*disclaimer... When I say Women, I mean the women who have an all these issues with sexism. I know not every woman thinks like this*
Women are absolutely disgusted by all the stereotypes of a hot woman. They hate that they have to look thin and toned and all that jazz. They hate that women always have big boobs in movies and games. They tend to hate it all. But then they have no problem with the stereotypical hot guy. Most lead roles in games or movies are muscular men. These beefed up muscles are essentially the male version of big boobs. You can argue it, but it's true. Either way, both genders have that typical "hot body". It's just more acceptable for men to have to look like that. Girls oogle over guys just as much as guys oogle over girls. I know more women that have said they want to see a movie because it has a hot guy in than i know guys who wanted to see a movie cause of a hot girl. Girls are plenty shallow about looks, its just more socially acceptable for them to do so. How many of you know women that lost their shit when this movie came out?
Another example of sexism being ok if its in favour of the women.... I`m an overweight male. If any of you are also, Im willing to bet you`ve experienced this too..... The number of times a woman has said to me "You`re a big guy..." (in reference to my body size :P)... Yes, I`m a big guy, and you just called me fat in a "nice" way. Still hurts my feelings though. Thanks for that. But hey, apparently it's ok for gals to say that to guys. Don't believe me? The next overweight girl you see, tell her she's a big girl. I garentee you that shit will hit the fan.
It's socially acceptable to judge men based on looks. And of course, you get all these commercials / ads, and all these facebook posts about real women having curves.... If everything I was saying was false, then pics like this wouldn't pop up. Other guys have felt the same things i have.
All this is why I really don't side with women complaining about this stuff. They do it too, yet get away with it. Yes, I agree that we need more women leads in games. But don't complain about their body type of you arent going to complain about mens body types either. How often do you see a scrawny guy, or a fat guy as your lead?
Treat others how you wish to be treated....
And yes, I fully believe in equal rights. I just don't see these arguements are fighting for them. Not when men are judged daily without a care or second thought.
Imagine if every guy was judged by their income, and nothing else. Then imagine every media source telling you that if you don't drive a Maserati, you are less of a man, and won't attract women. Imagine there is absolutely NO way to hide it, and your bank account number and income levels are just plainly open for everyone to see.
Every Advertisement on TV, every magazine ad telling you that anything less than a $500k salary you should just kill yourself. Every movie showing only men that can win the heart of any woman as long as they're wealthy. If you have a moderate income, you're likely the villain of every Disney movie.
Imagine you are told by everyone that NOTHING matters about you, your experiences, your passions, ONLY your income, and that's it. And envision that its socially acceptable for women to open laugh at how little income you make.
There's lot of points completely being missed here, and the understanding of what objectification is to women is not really being understood by most of the men posting pics of He-man.
It's not about a single model or a single whatever ... it's about a lifetime of shit that women have to put up with and men laugh about it and wonder why they can't stop whining.
A He-Man doll or some fat dude being embarrassed to take off his shirt is not even remotely in the same ballpark. To go Pulp Fiction, it's not even in the same city. It's not even the same SPORT.
I feel as if even talking about the topic does nothing as some kind of action would probably have to be done. I could try to set an example with work, but all of my zbrush sculpts look like turds so that is probably not the best way to do something about it.
not everyone is going to be happy with everything 100% of the time. It is just the way it is.
Should you have to make 100% of people happy all the time? No. That is ridiculous.
That would be a start.
I will just wave my hand and go live in cave.
So your saying the objectification of men how they have to be rich or successful according to mainstream society is okay because we can hide it....
Like someone really can't workout my socio-economic wealth by my trainers, what clothes im wearing what watch I own or don't own or cellphone etc
I have no doubt women are disproportionately objectified throughout human history and most widely in modern societies by the media.
Making presumptions on what people understand isn't generally a good idea to intelligently debate such things, we understand the objectification of women as we do men, why is it so wrong to say that the media in general creates unrealistic societal values across gender and race lines, why do you have to narrow it so towards women.
I think more over disproportionately black people are under represented in video games or when they are seem to be too stereotypically cast as a "gangsta" a rare exception to this rule I can think of is Louis from left 4 dead.
Of course I could easily point to your resume and your own personal sexaul objectification of women and call you a hypocrite, but I don't feel that's overly constructive as a whole, but what are we going to do ultimately in your ideal world, censor artists such as yourself if we deem their work offensive?.
And furthermore there are plenty of societies that a woman can hide her image, they just tend to be the most oppressive societies towards women on earth.
By the way, I wonder, having seen these calendars of firefighters and policemen for years. Are you seriously telling me they are made as a male power fantasy?
I'm not trying to bend this into a "bohoo, me too"-response. I'm just tired of seeing feminists on the internet claiming to fight for equality but who use misandry undertones to run their agenda. If you can't accept, no matter how unbalanced it can be, that something happens to both parties, you can never achieve equality.
Can't we work together to lessen both objectification and power fantasies of both parties and aim for quality in game development instead?
I mean, in my short lifetime I have noticed huge leaps in the right direction here. Blatantly sexualized characters will never disappear completely but I think it won't be long until women are no more objectified than men. Maybe I'm just an optimist though.
The same reason why no matter what there will always be an issue with this anyway you slide the bar.
You win people will bitch, you loose people will bitch.
My opinion best posts in this thread.
Tits x2 & JacqueChoi
Objectification to women is the same as slavery still is to many blacks, don't mean to steer this there but it is just an example.
There is that vibe that always lingers around with some people of how they were conditioned to think, yes we are conditioned to think certain things, hence advertisements in any form. Luckily for me i am not affected by these tools, i feel they are inferior and do not work on me, i can't speak for anyone else though.
Back on topic:
Ever see a really nice lady walk by, ever want to check out her ass there you go being the objectifying male at his best, though aren't we supposed to check out the goods before we buy/purchase or approach what we are interested in?
I am just going to state that the other day in the city i saw this amazing looking woman and she was covered from head to toe and i was instantly floored and was immediately attracted to her and she was wearing glasses and reading a book, I have eclectic taste, been with small, chubby, fat, skinny. I look for good women through and through and we pretty much all look for someone good in the end.
There is a connection loss of consideration for others when it comes to the sexual interest most men have when they view a female of interest for the first time.
It is usually negative in the objectification department no matter how you look at it because we like what we like.. And most of us men like women naked, it is messed up but it is in reality just there overwhelming beauty of them in there birthday suit and even women say it as well there is MORE to look at on a female than a male...
So i doubt this battle will ever be resolved, lets say you win, then what?
no more porn, no more bubbly women, no more magazines, no more strip clubs, no more nude scenes in movies, no more keeping the lights on when doing the naughty dance...
Carry on?
Prepare for dickyness.
This is what i was going to post and thought who cares why not add this in anyway.
or did a girl get into a guys head to create this in the first place and now he's all about her goal?
Or was it a father who decided that his old ways are no longer appropriate now that he has a little girl? hmmm, yea...
Also that game footage posted earlier was obviously trolling and if not they were just playing with a man's scrotum to gain a profitable advantage over everyone of the dudes that goes to play that game, in-turn screwing over the very people those of you are upset at... who objectify women.
I think maybe some men have lost there sacks, i mean i love women and i love them more naked cause i am attracted to the opposite sex and it isn't that i love to see big bubbling body parts or use women as objects it is their grace and how god damn loving they can be as well as how damn soft they are.
I know also many are smart and i am not looking past that but the reality is you don't date a person your not attracted to or do you?
I once did it and it turned out to be the WORST experaince of my life so i want the same people bitching to give going out with someone your not attracted to a try and see what the result is.
Why do i bring this up the situation is simple cause people like pretty things, be it cars, jewelry, money, anything & EVERYONE does It!
Your bullshitting if you claim to not be even a little bit shallow and also claiming to be perfect on top of that, which no one is.
The image society expects women to meet also happens to be a leading cause of anorexia and other eating disorders. With men, however, it's not so much the case. Photoshopped magazine covers which give off the a literally impossible image to achieve gets into the minds of young girls at a very, very young age.
We've all seen this gif everywhere:
For those of you saying Feminism is no longer needed in our day and age, you need a slap in the face and a wake-up call. Women in western countries may not be directly oppressed as they once were, but the fight for equality as a whole is far from over. You might want to watch this real quick:
http://www.upworthy.com/nailed-it-this-ad-calls-out-5-ridiculous-double-standards-women-face-in-less-than-60-seconds-2
Feminism isn't about hating on men and blaming anything that has a penis. It's about equal rights. Of course you've got radical feminists who'll lecture you if you so much as hold the door open for them out of politeness, but a radical anything is never good. Go read a book, open your horizons a little, and maybe, MAYBE you'll begin to understand that women have a just reason to want their rights just as we've always had.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_dysmorphia
Lies damned, lies, its a issue that transcends gender whether you like it or not, why is embracing both sides of the coin such a problem? and why are men immediately blamed as the problem for this as if we alone have somehow perpetuated the culture we find ourselves in, near No MEN are buying these magazines that perpetuate this unrealistic photoshopped female ideal, these magazines and their articles are predominantly written by, created, and featured by women, not in any way to justify it just to give more clarification.
Disproportionately society does make it worse for women, no doubt there, but to say this isn't a issue that transcends gender or that men are somehow different to women when it comes to vanity, media imagery, sexual/financial worth, self esteem or how they are affected by mainstream media is fundamentally sexist.
you should try promoting equality, not supremacy and devalue others opinions or feelings of being objectified simply because of their gender.
Carry on with your wonderful conversation, kind people.
I don't know if it is? Saying every single woman is singled out and has to deal with the levels we are speaking of is a bit drastic. I think it really depends on where you go and how you deal with things.
I think women in general are more sensitive to the issues at hand and thus react differently.
I only felt included when my character could perform an action I wanted them to, and to me the gender/race of that character doesn't matter as long as I can feel empowered through my actions in the game, as if I matter.
Aesthetics is one thing, I feel uncomfortable playing as a super beefy jacked up guy or a super handsome guy same way I feel odd about playing as an attractive woman or some beefed up warrior queen. It's part of the reason I don't enjoy Gears of War or Uncharted anymore and can't finish Bayonetta.
But I can't ignore the fact that in those games you're still capable of getting things done, and to some extent I guess that's why Metroid and Halo are more appealing to me, both characters are kind of faceless and their skills are a result of tertiary powers from a suit, so it's not some physical ideal.
I dunno I'm rambling a bit. What do you guys think could be a solution towards people feeling less alienated then? Make every character in games an amorphous blob which players can select the race and gender for based on some options?
Saints Row does a neat job of being inclusive, but it only works because the game is designed the way it is.
If someone were to make a game based on the life of Genghis Khan, could that game ever be 100% inclusive? Should they change the history it's based on to be more appealing to the masses or stick with their vision at the cost of alienating some players and potentially offending others?
It honestly seems like it's all about reaching a balance where everyone feels like they lose despite actually winning :P
I really feel you are just brushing these arguments off to support an agenda instead of discussing them.
That's one thing that bothered me about Skyrim, you just have a body size slider, and your only options are skinny buff or bulky buff, with some options in between. Every NPC, even homeless people, are ripped once you steal their stuff.
from OKCupid's userbase
It was an example of his, to get a point across. Also, OkCupid is hardly a reliable source for a study, especially considering wealth/success has so many variable factors when you apply them to dating sites, where physical image is one of the most important factors.
Yes, men have to deal with the ideal body type, but women have had to put up with more shit for their entire lives. I don't think its fair to consider what men go through equal to a woman's plight. Unless we are strictly speaking about body image and not the myriad other gender issues. I'd like to see a study for both genders of how many struggle with the 'ideal body type' and if it really does skew more towards women.
I agree with Jesse and think there is no reason a person needs to get so worked up over this specific issue. I understand its part of a greater issue, but there is no limit to how far you can take this if you choose to.
My own personal experience: My wife and I compete in bodybuilding (My wife in bikini). Now before anyone flips out and says she is contributing to objectifying women. Bodybuilding has helped her a lot with various issues in her past, and she has begun to find a healthy balance in her life thanks to it.
Me, I gain 60+ lbs in the offseason. Go to extremes where I know it makes me look bad, so that I can have a better end result at the next show which lasts for a single day. I guess I have a deep seeded desire to be some comic book hero or some shit. Point is, I know first hand I push myself to the limits and well beyond what the average person does. Its extremely important to me. I can compare myself to the pros and I know Ill never get there no matter how hard I try. But it doesnt deter me from trying. I dont get offended by bodybuilders much better than me even though I know much of it is based solely on genetics.
Bottom line, like Jesse said, everyone will react differently to different situations. You can have everything and be in total misery. Tough times dont come based on what gender you are born with. Comparing men to women is perfectly valid. This doesnt mean things cant be improved across the line, but you cant speak in such generalities is all.
Tho as I character artist I think that women (and men!) body are BEAUTIFULL.
Women's body have such amazing natural flow of curves and as character artist we like to see and reproduce those.
When making those curvy and seducing female character most of the time there is no other intention then to make aesthetically pleasing character to the eye of the player, female or male.
After that if it's gonna be objectified or not is up to how the game presents it and finally how the player perceive it.
If you really want to go against game that objectify woman I would say Dead or alive would be a good choice..!
Never played the game haha but It does looks like the game present the female character as an object and so does the player :P
Lol. "Men" read these all the time. You think Maxim and Playboy don't photoshop?
Since we all seem to be relying on external videos to make our point. The season finale of South Park addressed this issue perfectly.
[ame="
I think the perfect example is the Noir Elizabeth from Bioshock. Obviously some people got offended, who knows if they're male or female. Her wardrobe isn't revealing at all but the issue is that her waist is a little small and her bust is a little big. I don't think she's sexualized to a distasteful point, and a few women who have posted in this thread aren't offended either. She's not dressed up like Ivy from Soul Calibur for crying out loud.
BigJohn: You may have a point. I mean pretty much every Greek statue is of some buff naked guy and the Greeks have put up with it for centuries! And they're considered works of art too! How come Michelangelo isn't slandered because of David?
I think the problems arises when there's basically one variation that is deemed perfect by society, media, and culture, and everyone else is flawed. And when there is pressure to conform to the standard.
I would be lying if I said I didn't objectify the guy on the left. That's what I initially find attractive in a person, and there's nothing wrong with that. Even if you are only initially attracted to more "ideal" forms of beauty. That isn't inherently the problem.
I find it very strange that many games do not have any variation in body types, it really creeps me out, and this is a really common issue.
Entirely valid argument mate, Men no doubt read and perpetuate the societal objectification of women through Playboy maxim etc, but as do women Objectifying themselves, in all these various vanity and fashion magazines, to from a outsiders perspective a sickening degree, with their fashion tips, weight loss promotion etc, does it make it right?
entirely not, I was mainly trying to make the point this isn't a men vs women issue, this goes far beyond gender lines and into unrealistic depictions of people through the media which warp our perceptions and values on what is attractive, or ideal.
Edit: Oh yeah and that was a fantastic episode of southpark with a meaningful yet harrowing ending.
It was based on income not image. Taking into account that there will be physically attractive/un at every level of imcome. It would still average out to a medium point. Thus the results still show a trend.
All I am gonna say about this is:
If you want to make a fantasy game in which powerful male main character destroys the enemies and saves the extremely sexy princess... do it..
.. BUT !! DON'T give me that bulls..t about your game being mature or realistic in any way !
It isn't.. It simply isn't. It isn't supposed to be !
If you are selling me fantasies I am completely okay with that. I'll buy them if I want. Just tell me the truth about what you sell.
If I wanna buy a game which has realistic characters ( male/ female) I'll go buy that one because it is the game that is honest with me.
That is all.
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/suicide/statistics/rates02.html
If you assume its based on who suffers the most, right behind natives you have white males. Females are a fraction in every case.
However, I don't believe its based on who is treated the worse in society at all. Its all about how you handle stress and your external world. Just trying to support my theory that women shouldn't be so sensitive when it comes to games specifically. Especially not this Bioshock female character.
It almost seems like these concepts are being imposed upon us from something outside. Like they are living on through their own will, and not by the will of the people. As a feminine sort of Male, sure, media sometimes makes me wonder and feel insecure about my less-than-masculine image. But most of the time I love my less than Masculine Image. The media largely sucks and perpetuates images that society as a whole may not even support, and through their omnipresence, they get people to support those images.
One thing that has always bothered me are the "Real women are curvy" arguments. No, real women are whatever they are. I know plenty of skinny women who are naturally that way, and I know plenty of curvy women who are the same. Just because a women is skinny doesn't mean she's conforming to men's sexual fantasies. She's just being herself.
And I never did like the term feminism; I feel like it should be something less polarizing, like "Equalism" or something. Gender Equality. I understand the meaning of the word is different than the perception, but so many people I know won't touch that word with a ten foot pole because of the negative connotations. Don't go near a feminist blog on tumblr, if you don't want to Rage quit the internet, for instance. Scum of the Earth, some of them. So full of hate. I'm sure there are a fair share of great intelligent feminist blogs on their too, but there's too much to wade through.
At any rate, I understand the hostility people can feel about this, from both sides. But hostility solves nothing. And I think Bioshock is maybe the worst example of sexism in a game. Maybe ever. Oh, another thing. I do think sexism applies very much so to both sexes; Women are just delegated to the submissive position, while Men are delegated to the dominant. And besides, we need to stop differentiating so much. Sexism will continue so long as we keep segregating the genders. And throughout this thread there's been a lot of "Don't even try comparing Women's suffering with men's" sorts of comments. I don't think that helps things.
This is Polycount. I think most of us are trying to understand, and to state our viewpoints respectfully. To meet that with hostility would be a discourtesy.
Also, we need to start a revolution against the meat and the woodland fellows. Salami.
If anything here offends anyone, I probably just didn't word something clearly enough.
Men are also just as objectified as women in video games. Most women like muscles, how many muscle bound men do you see in games? Also, considering the ratio of male characters to female, how much more often are males objectified?
I think the whole fiasco stems more from confusion over gender identity than a legitimate social movement. Almost every woman I know claims to be a "feminist", but 80% of them confess to crying their way out of a speeding ticket. Conversely I've lost count of how many "nice" guys I've seen lose their girlfriend to some asshole who (surprise) acted more masculine.
Somewhere along the line, "feminists" (and this applies to both genders) need to figure out that a person can express their gender and still be progressive.
The only reason people are ticked over Bioshock is because it's popular and they see a potential target to raise awareness on. Meanwhile there's trash spewing out of Asia that's absurdly objectifying and it's dismissed as "cultural". (Just because it's exotic doesn't mean it's not sexist.)
[ame="
Just fyi, I'm reasonably certain the reason for those numbers is that males are more likely to try methods such as guns in suicide.
http://www.morningjournal.com/general-news/20120816/why-are-middle-aged-white-males-at-such-high-risk-for-suicide