Obviously I haven't seen the reports, but I have seen that and I am surprised by the communities reaction. It often does come off as a little hypocritical with the sexualized women all over the place. Personally I don't find either offensive, especially in the context of this board. It's definitely weird how much guys seem to freak out when they see a boner attached to a sexy naked dude instead of a tank or helicopter.
Yeah, I'm not going to throw any artists under the bus here but I've seen some women Polycounters post sexualized men elsewhere on the internet... something that would be chased out of the forum with torches and pitchforks but is no more offensive than the all the scantily clad women they aren't allowed to raise an eyebrow over.
I'm sorry it's in a thread about Gav's art, it's a nice character and although she is a bit Disney-princessified in proportions she's still portrayed fairly well for a video game woman. He can't be blamed anyway, we have to make what's asked of us.
Not as much as culture would have you believe. In either case, the womans image is not one of power.
As an aside to the person talking about history. There were matriarchal societies as well.
What I find most frustrating in these sorts of threads is people who just spectacularly don't get it. It's not about this one image, or that one drawing, or that one model, or that one stupid comment some internet troll made.
And until you understand why it's not, you can't really contribute to these threads outside of cutesy gifs and statements like, "OMG, don't get offended! You have no right!"
Fuck. Maybe it's an age thing, I don't know.
Not sure what my statement had to do with that, but okay. Nobody (I think) said that a single image or model or whatever is what's pissing people off, it's the buildup of those images over time and the weight that adds to people's shoulders.
I still think this has way more to do with the userbase/consumer than it does with the industry that caters to that userbase.
I am surprised the Gears of War / He-Man argument is still alive and kicking seeing how flawed it is on multiple levels, and how throughly it has been addressed.
I find it funny when you guys quote Stephen Fry, maybe you should tweet that image back to him when he's criticizing Russia over their treatment of homosexuals.
There is a significant difference between easily offended by words and the systematic abuse and oppression of a minority by one of the largest countries in the world.
These are not women. These are feminists. Feminists are not women. They deserve to be extradited to different galaxy. World will be better without them. They should take along with them other fanatics as well.
There is a significant difference between easily offended by words and the systematic abuse and oppression of a minority by one of the largest countries in the world..
ah, I misread, I didn't realize the image was directed towards the men that are getting all butthurt over being called misogynist.
and Jesse: after further thought, please clarify: are you saying "If you don't like the portrayal of women in the game industry instead of trying to change things, get out"?
Really, we have to stop sticking our fingers in our ears and going "NANANANANA!" any time the topic of the portrayal of women comes up. I mean, can't you see that historically you end up being the villain?
and Jesse: after further thought, please clarify: are you saying "If you don't like the portrayal of women in the game industry instead of trying to change things, get out"?
No. I'm not saying get out at all. My wife works in a game studio as well so I know all too well how some guys are. I was also in the Navy and was on a ship with women and have dealt with a lot of these issues. Hell when I was on board a ship the guys weren't allowed to read Maxim magazine because some of the girls thought it was offensive but they were allowed to look at Victorias Secret catalogs and Cosmo which is far worse than Maxim (in my opinion of course). Honestly, I am all for equality but not for special privileges.
However and unfortunate it will not always be the case. People are people and flawed in nature. Sometimes games can be a bit over the top and push an image that is far from the truth but what is worse?
A video game doing it with polygons and fake images or a womans magazine airbrushing and manipulating an image of a woman into something she is not?
Neither one is right and I'm not saying ahh fuck it why stop now but I am saying that just because you are offended by something it doesn't give you power or a right to an apology or something. Now before this gets twisted I am not talking about discrimination or civil rights and basic human treatment but more of the "Oh my god she was drawn with huge boobs and a tiny waist I am so offended." Why are you offended?
It is a growing trend of being offended to be offended to get some upper hand for whatever reason.
I think all these discussions about "objectifying" someone aren't helping anyone. It's like we are working towards suppressing every thought we have in favor of a politically correct and socially accepted opinion thereof. It's like in Big Brother when suddenly country "C" is the enemy, even though before it was country "B" and "C" were allies.
This is just canon and not making up an opinion oneself. If all we learn in life is to say "A" or "B", we miss out on the finer shades of grey and more important - on having an opinion of our own.
It's causing too many problems, how often do you see these lewd ladies in non meat?
Occasionally, but not often
Seriously enough already. Enough of this god damn meat this, meat that shit. It's annoying and has absolutely no relevance to anything plus you were banned previously for this nonsense.
I find it funny when you guys quote Stephen Fry, maybe you should tweet that image back to him when he's criticizing Russia over their treatment of homosexuals.
not to derail or anything but... there's quite a distinct difference between offensive behavior, and actual physically harmful behavior that encroaches on human rights.
Gay men raped with beer bottles and then having their skulls smashed in with rocks just because they're gay?
MP's calling for laws to allow gay people to be whipped in the public square?
A man getting punched in the face for being gay, and then being arrested as the offender?
these aren't things that are simply offensive, at all.
not to derail or anything but... there's quite a distinct difference between offensive behavior, and actual physically harmful behavior that encroaches on human rights.
Gay men raped with beer bottles and then having their skulls smashed in with rocks just because they're gay?
MP's calling for laws to allow gay people to be whipped in the public square?
A man getting punched in the face for being gay, and then being arrested as the offender?
these aren't things that are simply offensive, at all.
Lets not forget it's not just Russia were stuff like this happens. It happens in the USA, to homosexuals, and even still, to blacks, muslims, and other minorities.
The issue I see with our industry, there is a lot of objectifying of women. It's not inherently a bad thing, and can actually be a good thing depending on the context of the game, but it seems to actively discourage female gamers from being part of the community, playing games, and wanting to work on games for a living. The community can be very hostile and degrading to female players, calling them not true gamers, and thinking it's okay to harass them.
I really only read these "objectification/feminism/meat" threads nowadays to see if anyone posts new .gifs or other images I feel like saving. I was disappointed at the lack of new ones until this. Thanks!
It's unfortunate that the OP had to tie the overreaction to Gav's art with a total dismissal of the issue. So you have people like Haz that people look up to coming in and just mocking the subject, it's a real let down.
Really, you can make the kind of art you want, maybe you guys should practice what you preach and not chase away members that post art that makes you uncomfortable as well.
Maybe facing just a small amount of discrimination & misconceptions over being disabled opened my eyes a little bit? I'm still a white male so I practically won the lottery so I'm not even assuming what I've been through is even a fraction of what women have to deal with on a daily basis.
I think a big problem here with those bringing up cases of exaggerated males in media is the difference between power fantasies and sexual fantasies.
It's pretty rare to have a male designed to be "sexy" instead of "tough" as the whole idea is to make the demographic (young males) feel powerful. On the other hand, women are exaggerated to usually be a sexual prize. They are not caricatured for extra worth in the terms of strength, leadership, power, etc. -- but to make males go "oh wow she's hot."
Big difference and the sooner you guys grasp it the better.
ok what do people think has to change in order to rectify the current situation that games finds itself in? If we can finally get around to understanding the problem rather than just making knee-jerk statements on Kotaku then what really is the soloution....what can game artists do to change/adapt/survive? Can we do anything or are we just the car stereo trying to make the car turn left?
I think that one issue here is that video games are a diverse medium bundled together under one heading, we have descriptors for the mechanic rather than the narrative.
If you look at the magazine industry as a whole then you can come to the same conclusions....I have seen the pictures in maxim therefore the whole magazine industry is objectifying women....and that's not the case. I think that the backlash here is akin to from Maxim subscribers being told that the content of their magazine needs to change to suit a demographic that it was never intended for.. quite understandably they would be pissed when the solution isn't to change one facet of the medium, but to diversify and expand to allow all tastes to have something individual to themselves.
ok this is really overly simplified and I expect someone smarter than me to jump all over this post, but hopefully I kinda made sense even though I am coming from the " you understand nothing, lottery winning, white male, walk a mile in my shoes" perspective that the internet keeps telling me is so worthless in these discussions.
Women are objectified in game art for sure, however, I just see this as more of an issue of serial complaining. Most of the people who complain about this are people that aren't personally offended, but instead find the need to complain on behalf of somebody else. You see this happen all the time in the news in the U.S. nowadays.
When people aren't bitching about women being objectified, they find something else to bitch about. I see this all the time on the Kotaku comments, on youtube comments, etc. I used to reply to a lot of people but it got to the point where I was just wasting my time. You aren't going to change these people's mindsets.
That being said, the best solution is to just deal with it, I don't see what complaining is going to change. I'm a muslim and grew up in an incredibly racist town. I got bullied every day at school and to this day, the racist police officers in my town will do everything in their power to scare me even if I've done nothing (last week 3 police cars came to my house and started questioning me because they thought I was a suspect in some bank robbery I didn't even know about.)
There is also the whole popular belief that all muslims/arabs/etc. are evil terrorists which is why you always see them depicted as the bad guy in basically every other shooter made within the last decade. I can't even watch TV without seeing muslims as being the #1 enemy.
I could go on about how it's unfair to me, but I'm not going to bitch about it because that won't do anything. I think the people complaining about objectifying women are in the same boat, yeah it sucks, yeah its unfair, but what is complaining going to do? Set an example with your own work or learn to deal with it. Artists depicting women inaccurately isn't the end of the world.
I think a big problem here with those bringing up cases of exaggerated males in media is the difference between power fantasies and sexual fantasies.
It's pretty rare to have a male designed to be "sexy" instead of "tough" as the whole idea is to make the demographic (young males) feel powerful. On the other hand, women are exaggerated to usually be a sexual prize. They are not caricatured for extra worth in the terms of strength, leadership, power, etc. -- but to make males go "oh wow she's hot."
Big difference and the sooner you guys grasp it the better.
What's kinda sad and funny, the only game that has "sexy" male as a prize type thing is Spelunky.
I'm not offended by sexualized characters. In fact, in some ways I see it as a skill. Only a talented artist can craft anatomy in a way that gets genders talking about it or is memorable.
That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing the level of sexuality in games provided you're not a jerk about it. Usually the same people I want to defend on this issue try and turn it as an attack on the artist or make assumptions about them that could be totally wrong (i.e, game artist must hate women).
In the end though, I think I'm immune to this issue. I can freely think up and draw characters that don't have to be sexy. I'm also not afraid of sexualizing male characters so it doesn't get anymore equal than that.
Just out of interest, what recent or upcoming, top selling games are showing examples of this to people? maybe gta a bit, but you can argue that that games all about stereotyping and pointing out silly things from our culture in a satirical way. Bayonetta maybe, due to her outfit, but she does kick ass. This isn't me saying it's not an issue, I just can't think of any
I honestly think we as an industry are growing, and as we go into next gen, artists are forced to raise their game and push their anatomy, in doing so you start to appreciate the female form. Massive boobs don't excite me now that I'm not 12, bone structure does haha. I still can't believe they pulled up bioshock though, they need to play it before criticising it and taking it out of context. For example, I've worked on stuff that looks completely innocent, then I picked up the game in a bargain bin and couldn't believe what the writers did to it, the look isn't the only offending issue.
One major issue is the sarkeesians of this world. Pointing out gamings sexist past without addressing the current standard of the industry. Yes we have a bit of growing to do but don't keep pointing out tomb raider from the 90s when it's just not relevant anymore. It's like having a discussion on racism and I keep bring up pre Martin luthor king.
Cleanse your brain real quick, I love all of these games, but again; cleanse your brain for a quick moment,
now think of what gender the games assume the player will have.
That's the problem right there, it's very simple.
Male? Because 90%+ of gamers are male. It's preconceptions I think are the issue, not gender equality. Just because a game has a male protagonist doesn't make it sexist, or if it chooses to make the characters edgey, it's all about context. Not everything needs to be gender equal, I don't expect women to play gears of war, or go see the newest Arnie flick, some do, but it's not the target audience. This doesn't mean I expect scantily clad or weak female characters in it though to please the immature jerks out there. There's an increasing amount of titles that are putting great emphasis on story and visual development, titles like the last of us, bioshock, the walking dead, mass effect etc.
So what games in your eyes are an issue? I'm not arguing, just genuinely interested as I think we are turning a corner, but are so blindsided by our past that we can't move forward from it, just wish the writers or game designers could grow up a bit more.
I usually try to avoid this whole debate because it just tends to bring out the crazy from both sides of the argument, but... holy shit. I can't not comment on this:
Really?
REALLY?
I try to avoid associating myself the school of thought that thinks every single patch of skin in a movie or video game or whatever is some sort of defining moment in the quest for equality, but this just rubbed me the wrong way.
Feminism and feminists are the reason we have things like women's right to voting, women in high political and economic stations, and women being able to do things like go out in public without a man's supervision. Feminism is why we have things like women being educated and making informed decisions about their lives and the lives of others. Feminism is why there is now widespread healthcare for women that can actually cater to their needs and not just give them useless folk medicine. Feminism is why women are now allowed to pick out the clothing they wear. Feminism is why women are not treated as property. Feminism is why women can own property.
Feminism has led to the shocking, shocking realization that women are actually human beings.
If anyone should be shipped off to a different galaxy, it's the people who don't understand the impact of saying stupid, ignorant shit. Like you.
It was 100 years ago. Things changed. Those early feminists had at least understandable reasons.
Now it change to something we can call circle jerk of "I'm offended by <pick something>".
Sorry. That's how it looks now. There is no reason. There is constant whine, that is trying to win something. I do not respect that.
But hey. Live on. As long as, you won't pick axe and use "I'm offended by <something>" I do not care what you say. As long as I can do the same. Because I do not feel offended by anything and I do not care.
You know, I was really excited when I saw the title of this thread because this is a topic I thought the generally level headed Polycount.com could discuss in a fair and logical manner, offer solutions, discussion perspectives and experiences, and get some fair representation, and I really REALLY wanted to be part of that conversation.
The aspect being defined here is called "Male Gaze", in which the content creator assumes that the audience is a hetrosexual male through context, camera angles, fragmentation, etc. And there isn't anything intrinsically wrong with that, but it is unbalanced. It's difficult to enjoy something when the developers have made it abundantly clear that it wasn't made for you. But I doubt you've really ever experienced that yourself, so it's hard to believe that something could be an issue that affects real people if you haven't been affected by it.
Male? Because 90%+ of gamers are male. It's preconceptions I think are the issue, not gender equality. Just because a game has a male protagonist doesn't make it sexist, or if it chooses to make the characters edgey, it's all about context. Not everything needs to be gender equal, I don't expect women to play gears of war, or go see the newest Arnie flick, some do, but it's not the target audience. This doesn't mean I expect scantily clad or weak female characters in it though to please the immature jerks out there. There's an increasing amount of titles that are putting great emphasis on story and visual development, titles like the last of us, bioshock, the walking dead, mass effect etc.
So what games in your eyes are an issue? I'm not arguing, just genuinely interested as I think we are turning a corner, but are so blindsided by our past that we can't move forward from it, just wish the writers or game designers could grow up a bit more.
45% of gamers are female according to a study by the ESA.
Unrelated to quote:
Completely dismissing something because someone calls it "offensive" is something which I cannot even fathom. Offense is indeed a mostly useless response to something, but that does not mean there isn't a real issue.
You know, I was really excited when I saw the title of this thread because this is a topic I thought the generally level headed Polycount.com could discuss in a fair and logical manner, offer solutions, discussion perspectives and experiences, and get some fair representation, and I really REALLY wanted to be part of that conversation.
The aspect being defined here is called "Male Gaze", in which the content creator assumes that the audience is a hetrosexual male through context, camera angles, fragmentation, etc. And there isn't anything intrinsically wrong with that, but it is unbalanced. It's difficult to enjoy something when the developers have made it abundantly clear that it wasn't made for you. But I doubt you've really ever experienced that yourself, so it's hard to believe that something could be an issue that affects real people if you haven't been affected by it.
wow I'd never of thought it was that much. How much of that is casual gaming though. My partner plays the rare console game like tomb raider and bioshock, but shes always on her phone with plants vs zombies or peggle.
anyway, excuse my ignorance would still like to see what games are offending people though so I can understand it a bit better
Oh hey, this discussion again.
If the entire point of art was not to evoke emotions and discussion about a certain subject matter, this might have merit.
As it stands it's an unfortunate byproduct of marketing and capitalism.
Only way to counter it is, break the perceived status quo and prove it isn't needed.
An artist can create whatever they want, a creation doesn't have rights and does not have to adhere to any bullet points of decency to avoid offending the delicate.
And while there are certainly points to be made about gross sexualisation of female and male characters in games/movies/books and art, they all lose merit when the complaints come from either outside the targeted audience or from someone who doesn't share the artists vision, because you're not the target.
Take the debacle around the MGS 5 character "Quiet". Her outfit is non conventional, and some people find it offensive because it either represents an unrealistic body standard or to give men/women the sexy jollies.
But the arguments against her outfit have no basis, as Kojima who designed the character stated again and again that she looks "erotic" for a reason and that within the context of the game (the game being the entire setting she was created for) it all makes sense. But some people want to argue that it can "never" make sense, that it is disgusting and that it should be changed.
And that's the biggest problem I have with this. Whenever you attack the artist/creation, you're either directly or indirectly asking for change, and that leads to censorship.
Critique is fine, but it doesn't have more merit if it comes from a source of personal offense, and deciding to ignore the critique does not make you a bigot.
Quick Edit:
Just want to add that my second favourite part of Infinite's art was all the character's especially Elizabeth, good to see the artist get broader recognition, even if it is from click bait cesspool like Kotaku.
Male? Because 90%+ of gamers are male. It's preconceptions I think are the issue, not gender equality. Just because a game has a male protagonist doesn't make it sexist, or if it chooses to make the characters edgey, it's all about context. Not everything needs to be gender equal, I don't expect women to play gears of war, or go see the newest Arnie flick, some do, but it's not the target audience.
Having to experience that ones favorite hobby probably isn't intended to be is not fun, and it's a cycle of people expecting games to not be for females, giving parents the idea that girls probably shouldn't be encouraged.
It does happen more often than not, it's like the same thing everyone here probably experiences when they talk about their profession and gets the "play games all days" and "games are for children", but on a much more harsh level and with a much more life-affecting effect.
As important though: you don't HAVE to take everything feminists or anita sarkeesian says as THE LAW to recognize a problem, you can pick your fights, don't put up full defenses because some things were too much.
fixing the very _idea_ that spawns games for target audiences in the biggest releases means that we can fix the male/female ratio in the industry and in the customerbase, and then when we at the point make male-oriented games knowing that we have to sacrifice a large part of the audience it means that we do it for the game, not to appeal the market.
Critique for art that is problematic and marginalizes people isn't censorship, art isn't art if it's immune to harsh criticism. if video games are ever going to be regarded as an art form, then we have to ask these questions, we have to give place for topics like sexism, marginalization, and political discourse.
There will always be objectified female characters (and male, though less common). But what people are really asking for is just more characters that they can relate to, that they can look up to, and that they can see themselves as. They want more representation and variety. Asking for that isn't censorship.
And is that unfair to ask for? Of course not, but people are treating it like it is asking too much or that it somehow takes away from groups that are well represented.
Besides, it's very difficult to see the merit in art when it's all been made abundantly clear that is wasn't for you to enjoy because of what you have in between your legs or what color your skin is. Art isn't art if we can't ask these questions.
I find it funny when you guys quote Stephen Fry, maybe you should tweet that image back to him when he's criticizing Russia over their treatment of homosexuals.
Dude come on.. that isn't even remotely comparable. People being offended by art or something someone said isn't the same as someone being outraged over a minority being ostracised from a relatively "modern" society because of bigotry.
Critique for art that is problematic and marginalizes people isn't censorship, art isn't art if it's immune to harsh criticism. if video games are ever going to be regarded as an art form, then we have to ask these questions, we have to give place for topics like sexism, marginalization, and political discourse.
There will always be objectified female characters (and male, though less common). But what people are really asking for is just more characters that they can relate to, that they can look up to, and that they can see themselves as. They want more representation and variety. Asking for that isn't censorship.
And is that unfair to ask for? Of course not, but people are treating it like it is asking too much or that it somehow takes away from groups that are well represented.
Besides, it's very difficult to see the merit in art when it's all been made abundantly clear that is wasn't for you to enjoy because of what you have in between your legs or what color your skin is. Art isn't art if we can't ask these questions.
I agree, my point was aimed more toward people who are of the assumption that if art aimed at them doesn't exist, art aimed at others should be changed to be aimed at them. Also critique isn't a baseless ask for "change" so critique is fine, always and necessary.
But yes, in general we need more variety, that would probably fix all of this.
Critique for art that is problematic and marginalizes people isn't censorship, art isn't art if it's immune to harsh criticism. if video games are ever going to be regarded as an art form, then we have to ask these questions, we have to give place for topics like sexism, marginalization, and political discourse.
There will always be objectified female characters (and male, though less common). But what people are really asking for is just more characters that they can relate to, that they can look up to, and that they can see themselves as. They want more representation and variety. Asking for that isn't censorship.
And is that unfair to ask for? Of course not, but people are treating it like it is asking too much or that it somehow takes away from groups that are well represented.
Besides, it's very difficult to see the merit in art when it's all been made abundantly clear that is wasn't for you to enjoy because of what you have in between your legs or what color your skin is. Art isn't art if we can't ask these questions.
see I would love to see this, but unfortunately its not in the hands of the artists on these big titles. We can try our best to add interest and depth, but it can be ruined in an instant with poor writing and animations. I just want more thought out and developed games, ones with story and no one note characters.
The issue for me isnt with misrepresentation or male focused gaming, but with poor writing or game design. It seems for me that gender issues is a side note on a bigger issue.
would still like to hear of titles that are causing issue? anyway, Im out
Take the debacle around the MGS 5 character "Quiet". Her outfit is non conventional, and some people find it offensive because it either represents an unrealistic body standard or to give men/women the sexy jollies.
But the arguments against her outfit have no basis, as Kojima who designed the character stated again and again that she looks "erotic" for a reason...
Yup, two of his reasons were to sell more figurines and encourage sexy cosplay. Credit to him for being honest I suppose.
I think a big problem here with those bringing up cases of exaggerated males in media is the difference between power fantasies and sexual fantasies.
It's pretty rare to have a male designed to be "sexy" instead of "tough" as the whole idea is to make the demographic (young males) feel powerful. On the other hand, women are exaggerated to usually be a sexual prize. They are not caricatured for extra worth in the terms of strength, leadership, power, etc. -- but to make males go "oh wow she's hot."
Big difference and the sooner you guys grasp it the better.
This argument is rather absurd, most videogame experiences are power fantasies, which are not gender centric, civilization which my girlfriend plays regularly is a power fantasy without a doubt.
Media portrayals while effecting men perhaps differently can just be as negative and damaging, if you are not strong, or tough, or have a six pack or massive guns theres something wrong with you, I wonder how many men have avoided things such as going to the hospital just because of the stupid societal values instilled in them they should conform to this image and walk it off.
a womans sexaul fantasy in the broadest popular culture term is likely to be a male with power, Twilight-vampire, 50 shades of grey-Millionaire, so by making us more than average you are creating a sexaulized standard of power we generally can never reach, there are even addictions where guys spend all day lifting weights and doing roids because they feel inadequate and being big is never enough.
if you don't think media reaches men as much as women you should ask a fat guy how he feels about swimming at a public pool.
But my argument quite clearly is opposed to the disproportionate sexaulization of women, I just think to believe men are enacting some power fantasy, while women are just sexaulized objects in games is pretty judgemental upon the men and women that play these games and is a far fetched judgement into peoples internal psychology.
I don't believe in suppressing male/female designs, whether they're sexualised or not.
But listening to a lot of the arguments against sexualised designs, I do think that there are far more various types/designs of males than there are of females. Female characters tend to not have enough variety in their design. And I can somewhat agree with that.
im always surprised to see the lack of reflection over their own art, many high profile artist in this community seem to have. with all the fancy talk about the importance of accepting criticism to develop as an artist, people sure do get very defensive. if you would spend countless hours sculpting, modeling and texturing a model, why not spend at least a couple of them developing a better design then "girl with hot body and big boobs".
i understand that the buisness people in most AAA companies feel the need to cater the games to the 14 year old boys of the world (actually of the USA, but thats a different issue), but its sad to see that many artists have that mindset aswell. cant we have higher ambitions than that? to make a overused comparisson, if the movie industry was in the same state as the games industry, michael bay would win every oscar.
My own opinion on the subject is that YES sometimes character are oversexualised in a way that I find it not of very good taste. BUT I feel that some people are bashing on some beautifull character with great artistic directions/stylisation only because they are curvy or seductive.
A female character with big booty and big boobs doesn't mean bad design, just as a female character with no boobs and no ass mean a good one.
I think we are making huge progress when it come to strong female character in video games with character like Ellie from the last of us, Elizabeth from Bioshock etc.
Those games have character developement, personality,Those female characters are not seen as object throughout the game and making elizabeth curvy is nothing close from offensive.
Replies
Yeah, I'm not going to throw any artists under the bus here but I've seen some women Polycounters post sexualized men elsewhere on the internet... something that would be chased out of the forum with torches and pitchforks but is no more offensive than the all the scantily clad women they aren't allowed to raise an eyebrow over.
I'm sorry it's in a thread about Gav's art, it's a nice character and although she is a bit Disney-princessified in proportions she's still portrayed fairly well for a video game woman. He can't be blamed anyway, we have to make what's asked of us.
Not as much as culture would have you believe. In either case, the womans image is not one of power.
As an aside to the person talking about history. There were matriarchal societies as well.
I still think this has way more to do with the userbase/consumer than it does with the industry that caters to that userbase.
There is a significant difference between easily offended by words and the systematic abuse and oppression of a minority by one of the largest countries in the world.
I just... Can't.
ah, I misread, I didn't realize the image was directed towards the men that are getting all butthurt over being called misogynist.
and Jesse: after further thought, please clarify: are you saying "If you don't like the portrayal of women in the game industry instead of trying to change things, get out"?
Really, we have to stop sticking our fingers in our ears and going "NANANANANA!" any time the topic of the portrayal of women comes up. I mean, can't you see that historically you end up being the villain?
No. I'm not saying get out at all. My wife works in a game studio as well so I know all too well how some guys are. I was also in the Navy and was on a ship with women and have dealt with a lot of these issues. Hell when I was on board a ship the guys weren't allowed to read Maxim magazine because some of the girls thought it was offensive but they were allowed to look at Victorias Secret catalogs and Cosmo which is far worse than Maxim (in my opinion of course). Honestly, I am all for equality but not for special privileges.
However and unfortunate it will not always be the case. People are people and flawed in nature. Sometimes games can be a bit over the top and push an image that is far from the truth but what is worse?
A video game doing it with polygons and fake images or a womans magazine airbrushing and manipulating an image of a woman into something she is not?
Neither one is right and I'm not saying ahh fuck it why stop now but I am saying that just because you are offended by something it doesn't give you power or a right to an apology or something. Now before this gets twisted I am not talking about discrimination or civil rights and basic human treatment but more of the "Oh my god she was drawn with huge boobs and a tiny waist I am so offended." Why are you offended?
It is a growing trend of being offended to be offended to get some upper hand for whatever reason.
It's causing too many problems, how often do you see these lewd ladies in non meat?
Occasionally, but not often
This is just canon and not making up an opinion oneself. If all we learn in life is to say "A" or "B", we miss out on the finer shades of grey and more important - on having an opinion of our own.
Seriously enough already. Enough of this god damn meat this, meat that shit. It's annoying and has absolutely no relevance to anything plus you were banned previously for this nonsense.
not to derail or anything but... there's quite a distinct difference between offensive behavior, and actual physically harmful behavior that encroaches on human rights.
Gay men raped with beer bottles and then having their skulls smashed in with rocks just because they're gay?
MP's calling for laws to allow gay people to be whipped in the public square?
A man getting punched in the face for being gay, and then being arrested as the offender?
these aren't things that are simply offensive, at all.
Lets not forget it's not just Russia were stuff like this happens. It happens in the USA, to homosexuals, and even still, to blacks, muslims, and other minorities.
The issue I see with our industry, there is a lot of objectifying of women. It's not inherently a bad thing, and can actually be a good thing depending on the context of the game, but it seems to actively discourage female gamers from being part of the community, playing games, and wanting to work on games for a living. The community can be very hostile and degrading to female players, calling them not true gamers, and thinking it's okay to harass them.
I really only read these "objectification/feminism/meat" threads nowadays to see if anyone posts new .gifs or other images I feel like saving. I was disappointed at the lack of new ones until this. Thanks!
Now that's out of the way, how bout we go 1 inch punchin? *nudge nudge wink wink saynomore saynomore*
Really, you can make the kind of art you want, maybe you guys should practice what you preach and not chase away members that post art that makes you uncomfortable as well.
Maybe facing just a small amount of discrimination & misconceptions over being disabled opened my eyes a little bit? I'm still a white male so I practically won the lottery so I'm not even assuming what I've been through is even a fraction of what women have to deal with on a daily basis.
It's pretty rare to have a male designed to be "sexy" instead of "tough" as the whole idea is to make the demographic (young males) feel powerful. On the other hand, women are exaggerated to usually be a sexual prize. They are not caricatured for extra worth in the terms of strength, leadership, power, etc. -- but to make males go "oh wow she's hot."
Big difference and the sooner you guys grasp it the better.
I think that one issue here is that video games are a diverse medium bundled together under one heading, we have descriptors for the mechanic rather than the narrative.
If you look at the magazine industry as a whole then you can come to the same conclusions....I have seen the pictures in maxim therefore the whole magazine industry is objectifying women....and that's not the case. I think that the backlash here is akin to from Maxim subscribers being told that the content of their magazine needs to change to suit a demographic that it was never intended for.. quite understandably they would be pissed when the solution isn't to change one facet of the medium, but to diversify and expand to allow all tastes to have something individual to themselves.
ok this is really overly simplified and I expect someone smarter than me to jump all over this post, but hopefully I kinda made sense even though I am coming from the " you understand nothing, lottery winning, white male, walk a mile in my shoes" perspective that the internet keeps telling me is so worthless in these discussions.
When people aren't bitching about women being objectified, they find something else to bitch about. I see this all the time on the Kotaku comments, on youtube comments, etc. I used to reply to a lot of people but it got to the point where I was just wasting my time. You aren't going to change these people's mindsets.
That being said, the best solution is to just deal with it, I don't see what complaining is going to change. I'm a muslim and grew up in an incredibly racist town. I got bullied every day at school and to this day, the racist police officers in my town will do everything in their power to scare me even if I've done nothing (last week 3 police cars came to my house and started questioning me because they thought I was a suspect in some bank robbery I didn't even know about.)
There is also the whole popular belief that all muslims/arabs/etc. are evil terrorists which is why you always see them depicted as the bad guy in basically every other shooter made within the last decade. I can't even watch TV without seeing muslims as being the #1 enemy.
I could go on about how it's unfair to me, but I'm not going to bitch about it because that won't do anything. I think the people complaining about objectifying women are in the same boat, yeah it sucks, yeah its unfair, but what is complaining going to do? Set an example with your own work or learn to deal with it. Artists depicting women inaccurately isn't the end of the world.
*equips blast shield*
What's kinda sad and funny, the only game that has "sexy" male as a prize type thing is Spelunky.
That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing the level of sexuality in games provided you're not a jerk about it. Usually the same people I want to defend on this issue try and turn it as an attack on the artist or make assumptions about them that could be totally wrong (i.e, game artist must hate women).
In the end though, I think I'm immune to this issue. I can freely think up and draw characters that don't have to be sexy. I'm also not afraid of sexualizing male characters so it doesn't get anymore equal than that.
Watching from the sidelines with no guilt is fun!
I honestly think we as an industry are growing, and as we go into next gen, artists are forced to raise their game and push their anatomy, in doing so you start to appreciate the female form. Massive boobs don't excite me now that I'm not 12, bone structure does haha. I still can't believe they pulled up bioshock though, they need to play it before criticising it and taking it out of context. For example, I've worked on stuff that looks completely innocent, then I picked up the game in a bargain bin and couldn't believe what the writers did to it, the look isn't the only offending issue.
One major issue is the sarkeesians of this world. Pointing out gamings sexist past without addressing the current standard of the industry. Yes we have a bit of growing to do but don't keep pointing out tomb raider from the 90s when it's just not relevant anymore. It's like having a discussion on racism and I keep bring up pre Martin luthor king.
Cleanse your brain real quick, I love all of these games, but again; cleanse your brain for a quick moment,
now think of what gender the games assume the player will have.
That's the problem right there, it's very simple.
Male? Because 90%+ of gamers are male. It's preconceptions I think are the issue, not gender equality. Just because a game has a male protagonist doesn't make it sexist, or if it chooses to make the characters edgey, it's all about context. Not everything needs to be gender equal, I don't expect women to play gears of war, or go see the newest Arnie flick, some do, but it's not the target audience. This doesn't mean I expect scantily clad or weak female characters in it though to please the immature jerks out there. There's an increasing amount of titles that are putting great emphasis on story and visual development, titles like the last of us, bioshock, the walking dead, mass effect etc.
So what games in your eyes are an issue? I'm not arguing, just genuinely interested as I think we are turning a corner, but are so blindsided by our past that we can't move forward from it, just wish the writers or game designers could grow up a bit more.
It was 100 years ago. Things changed. Those early feminists had at least understandable reasons.
Now it change to something we can call circle jerk of "I'm offended by <pick something>".
Sorry. That's how it looks now. There is no reason. There is constant whine, that is trying to win something. I do not respect that.
But hey. Live on. As long as, you won't pick axe and use "I'm offended by <something>" I do not care what you say. As long as I can do the same. Because I do not feel offended by anything and I do not care.
What a fool I was...
And crazyfool, just for the record, 45%-50% of gamers are women. http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp
The aspect being defined here is called "Male Gaze", in which the content creator assumes that the audience is a hetrosexual male through context, camera angles, fragmentation, etc. And there isn't anything intrinsically wrong with that, but it is unbalanced. It's difficult to enjoy something when the developers have made it abundantly clear that it wasn't made for you. But I doubt you've really ever experienced that yourself, so it's hard to believe that something could be an issue that affects real people if you haven't been affected by it.
45% of gamers are female according to a study by the ESA.
Unrelated to quote:
Completely dismissing something because someone calls it "offensive" is something which I cannot even fathom. Offense is indeed a mostly useless response to something, but that does not mean there isn't a real issue.
wow I'd never of thought it was that much. How much of that is casual gaming though. My partner plays the rare console game like tomb raider and bioshock, but shes always on her phone with plants vs zombies or peggle.
anyway, excuse my ignorance
If the entire point of art was not to evoke emotions and discussion about a certain subject matter, this might have merit.
As it stands it's an unfortunate byproduct of marketing and capitalism.
Only way to counter it is, break the perceived status quo and prove it isn't needed.
An artist can create whatever they want, a creation doesn't have rights and does not have to adhere to any bullet points of decency to avoid offending the delicate.
And while there are certainly points to be made about gross sexualisation of female and male characters in games/movies/books and art, they all lose merit when the complaints come from either outside the targeted audience or from someone who doesn't share the artists vision, because you're not the target.
Take the debacle around the MGS 5 character "Quiet". Her outfit is non conventional, and some people find it offensive because it either represents an unrealistic body standard or to give men/women the sexy jollies.
But the arguments against her outfit have no basis, as Kojima who designed the character stated again and again that she looks "erotic" for a reason and that within the context of the game (the game being the entire setting she was created for) it all makes sense. But some people want to argue that it can "never" make sense, that it is disgusting and that it should be changed.
And that's the biggest problem I have with this. Whenever you attack the artist/creation, you're either directly or indirectly asking for change, and that leads to censorship.
Critique is fine, but it doesn't have more merit if it comes from a source of personal offense, and deciding to ignore the critique does not make you a bigot.
Quick Edit:
Just want to add that my second favourite part of Infinite's art was all the character's especially Elizabeth, good to see the artist get broader recognition, even if it is from click bait cesspool like Kotaku.
Having to experience that ones favorite hobby probably isn't intended to be is not fun, and it's a cycle of people expecting games to not be for females, giving parents the idea that girls probably shouldn't be encouraged.
It does happen more often than not, it's like the same thing everyone here probably experiences when they talk about their profession and gets the "play games all days" and "games are for children", but on a much more harsh level and with a much more life-affecting effect.
As important though: you don't HAVE to take everything feminists or anita sarkeesian says as THE LAW to recognize a problem, you can pick your fights, don't put up full defenses because some things were too much.
fixing the very _idea_ that spawns games for target audiences in the biggest releases means that we can fix the male/female ratio in the industry and in the customerbase, and then when we at the point make male-oriented games knowing that we have to sacrifice a large part of the audience it means that we do it for the game, not to appeal the market.
There will always be objectified female characters (and male, though less common). But what people are really asking for is just more characters that they can relate to, that they can look up to, and that they can see themselves as. They want more representation and variety. Asking for that isn't censorship.
And is that unfair to ask for? Of course not, but people are treating it like it is asking too much or that it somehow takes away from groups that are well represented.
Besides, it's very difficult to see the merit in art when it's all been made abundantly clear that is wasn't for you to enjoy because of what you have in between your legs or what color your skin is. Art isn't art if we can't ask these questions.
Dude come on.. that isn't even remotely comparable. People being offended by art or something someone said isn't the same as someone being outraged over a minority being ostracised from a relatively "modern" society because of bigotry.
I agree, my point was aimed more toward people who are of the assumption that if art aimed at them doesn't exist, art aimed at others should be changed to be aimed at them. Also critique isn't a baseless ask for "change" so critique is fine, always and necessary.
But yes, in general we need more variety, that would probably fix all of this.
see I would love to see this, but unfortunately its not in the hands of the artists on these big titles. We can try our best to add interest and depth, but it can be ruined in an instant with poor writing and animations. I just want more thought out and developed games, ones with story and no one note characters.
The issue for me isnt with misrepresentation or male focused gaming, but with poor writing or game design. It seems for me that gender issues is a side note on a bigger issue.
would still like to hear of titles that are causing issue? anyway, Im out
Maybe you worded that wrong but if that's how you feel, you're a pretty horrible human being.
I mean, I don't like saying that to someone so if that's not what you meant, PLEASE clarify.
This argument is rather absurd, most videogame experiences are power fantasies, which are not gender centric, civilization which my girlfriend plays regularly is a power fantasy without a doubt.
Media portrayals while effecting men perhaps differently can just be as negative and damaging, if you are not strong, or tough, or have a six pack or massive guns theres something wrong with you, I wonder how many men have avoided things such as going to the hospital just because of the stupid societal values instilled in them they should conform to this image and walk it off.
a womans sexaul fantasy in the broadest popular culture term is likely to be a male with power, Twilight-vampire, 50 shades of grey-Millionaire, so by making us more than average you are creating a sexaulized standard of power we generally can never reach, there are even addictions where guys spend all day lifting weights and doing roids because they feel inadequate and being big is never enough.
if you don't think media reaches men as much as women you should ask a fat guy how he feels about swimming at a public pool.
But my argument quite clearly is opposed to the disproportionate sexaulization of women, I just think to believe men are enacting some power fantasy, while women are just sexaulized objects in games is pretty judgemental upon the men and women that play these games and is a far fetched judgement into peoples internal psychology.
But listening to a lot of the arguments against sexualised designs, I do think that there are far more various types/designs of males than there are of females. Female characters tend to not have enough variety in their design. And I can somewhat agree with that.
i understand that the buisness people in most AAA companies feel the need to cater the games to the 14 year old boys of the world (actually of the USA, but thats a different issue), but its sad to see that many artists have that mindset aswell. cant we have higher ambitions than that? to make a overused comparisson, if the movie industry was in the same state as the games industry, michael bay would win every oscar.
when will the reign of meat end?
BUT I feel that some people are bashing on some beautifull character with great artistic directions/stylisation only because they are curvy or seductive.
A female character with big booty and big boobs doesn't mean bad design, just as a female character with no boobs and no ass mean a good one.
I think we are making huge progress when it come to strong female character in video games with character like Ellie from the last of us, Elizabeth from Bioshock etc.
Those games have character developement, personality,Those female characters are not seen as object throughout the game and making elizabeth curvy is nothing close from offensive.