Games aren't the only offenders, and women aren't the only one that suffer from a sexist society. However, that does not mean women's portrayal in games should be dismissed, nor is it any less of a problem than if it were only in this industry.
The only problem I have with these sexy chicks in games is that it makes video games looks really immature, for a media that is already always portrayed in a wrong way. But sex sells and you have to attract the male audience. (Look at Transformers and Megan Fox, (And her presence in COD's trailer omg))...
In the end I think it's always about money. When women won't attract the males like a horde of zombies, then maybe we won't have sexy girls in video games anymore. (And there won't be big boobed girls everywhere in conventions).
I think it is also extremely important to make the difference between the content creators (game devs and writers) and the marketing teams in charge of "selling" the product, which often dumb it down or even misrepresent it. Any movie can be recut into a 5 minutes sexist trailer. Every game can be made to look stupid with some clever editing.
As for the graph above regarding the representation of women in movies : Yes, that seems unbalanced. That means that there is probably not enough women directors and writers, and few marketing/production teams lead by women. But the men writing men-oriented movies are not the ones to blame for that. You cannot generate new content by simply pointing fingers at those who are not creating the content you would hope to see more of. (in other words : don't ask an action flick or porn director to write and direct something like Moon). You can, however tilt the balance by simply supporting the kind content that you want to see more of. Or by being directly involved in creating such content - something that is now wildly accessible, with anyone walking around with a HD camera in their pocket, and Unity/UDK/CryEngine being free or affordable.
Also, I do find many arguments about representation to be rather ... juvenile, so to speak. I understand that kids and teens often need role models to closely identify too. (in that regard, the balance is already tilting, with recent kids movies like Wreck It Ralph, Rapunzel, Brave and Frozen). But as adults, I would hope that we would be wise enough to be able to appreciate a good story regardless of the gender, sexual orientation, skin color and job of the main protagonist - even if it is wildly different from ours, and even if the main protagonist is a ruthless killer without morals.
At the end of the day I am very much with Crazyfool on this issue. This forum is great not only because of the criticism given, but also because the persons giving criticism are experienced in the first place, which keeps things on point. In that spirit, I think it would be interesting to actually make the discussion less theorical and more about precise, concrete examples.
I am not suggesting that the problem does not exist - just saying that in the context of the recent years, I dont think I remember many "objectified women" in the games I had the chance to play. But of course, if a game's message was "treat women like objects ! That's all they are good for !" I would be rather unlikely to buy it in the first place anyways.
- I do remember the twins in Duke Nukem Forever to be acting as objects, but I did see it as a satire on the way some people are willing to sell themselves in the name of fame and money in Hollywood. Now Duke is an accomplice of that, and that does make him a despicable character - but again, this is pretty much a caricature of Charlie Sheen and his two girlfriends. And when they die of an horrible death in front of him, he swears to avenge them since he didn't manage to save them. And regardless - I don't think anyone ever tried to imply that DNF is depicting how real people are supposed to act anyways.
- There is that weird MMO in which all the player character are females, and micro-transactions unlock sexier and sexier costumes. In this case I don't see much of a problem either : this is obviously targeted at a specific audience willing to pay to enjoy that, and in no ways does it diminish my or other people's opinion of women.
- Dead or Alive is an interesting example as there is a growing confusion between the core DoA games, and the beach resort / volleyball DoA spinoffs. These games have different target audiences, and different marketing strategies. Now I do understand that some might be "offended" by the shallow way the characters act in the women-only DoA spinoffs, and the way breasts bounce unrealistically in the core DoA fighting games. But again, this is acting (mocap, even), just like porn - no one is saying that this is how women are supposed to act in real life. Are people not allowed to have fantasies anymore ?
Anyways - I don't want to get too involved with the discussion, just curious about concrete recent examples really. I guess I fall into a strange category of males, with my favorite movie being Lola Rennt and one of my favorite games being Mirror's Edge ...
Idealization of the human body isn't a new thing. So why all the rage against it now? Maybe that we can see obesity rising together with affluence has something to do with it. I'm thinking people are just a little jealous.
Because people do not have better problems to think of. Or rather people in power doesn't want people to think about more serious issues.
I give you all a hint about one such issue.
Think about recent economic recession. And think about it broader spectrum, what will happen to world economy in next 30 years if we will continue with neo-capitalistic principles.
Your conspiracy theory assumes that the "people in power" WANT society to collapse. I don't see the profit in that. You don't kill the cow you're getting the milk from.
Your conspiracy theory assumes that the "people in power" WANT society to collapse. I don't see the profit in that. You don't kill the cow you're getting the milk from.
Well I don't think collapsing is ultimate goal. What I really think is that situation just got out of control, and now they have no idea how fix it. So now the goal is to post pond it as long as possible.
The theory of current economic system was nice, the problem with it, is that is completely detached from reality that is surrounding us. Short version is, it assume that we have infinite resources, and money get value because of trust, not because it represents real physical (or digital) goods.
I like what people in Iceland have done. I wish more people did the same thing.
Well I don't think collapsing is ultimate goal. What I really think is that situation just got out of control, and now they have no idea how fix it. So now the goal is to post pond it as long as possible.
The theory of current economic system was nice, the problem with it, is that is completely detached from reality that is surrounding us. Short version is, it assume that we have infinite resources, and money get value because of trust, not because it represents real physical (or digital) goods.
I like what people in Iceland have done. I wish more people did the same thing.
Can you do us all a favour and take your conspiracy theories elsewhere please, and stop derailing this thread?
1. Political correctness and the victim mentality, if it isnt the "white man" at fault, its some how the "male" at fault.
2. Not enough women in the game, rather entertainment industry. You want to balance delivery out, you need more females interested in this kind of industry. Naturally men will have and deliver more attention to detail as to what they "desire".
The whole concept of "objectifying women" is false because its ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE. My GF who is both a minority and also a non US born citizen also agrees, that for many females, certain portrays are considered empowering. Its entirely dependent upon the mindsent and self identity, or perhaps insecurity, of the female in question. I mean you rarely see male characters, whether overly buff and masculine or wimpy and feminine result in insecure or upset male players. I believe it all comes down to a politically in"correct" view of the world tied to a groups confirmation bias and narrative. Nothing more, nothing less.
Ill end with, if men didnt desire women, based on all parts of their genetic and personal make up (character) then you wouldnt have babies, and quite frankly without reproduction you wouldnt have civilization. Females often value the alpha male more than the beta male, so lets not pretend its one sided here.
I just walked in. It's like going for nandos, you know going a full chicken and large chips will make you feel incredibly ill and full after it but its too difficult to resist.
in my opinion (i think im off to a good start here), It is up to the creative to decide how characters are portrayed and how they look. naturally you tend to focus or exaggerate more on what you desire (like chicken) and so you end up with these i guess rather curvey characters or muscly characters (or glorious chicken).
when it comes to organised videogame making (large companies) or even film, you get a small group of people at the top making these decisions on how it should look, this will be based on their desires/exaggerations or their thoughts of what the majority of the public/consumers would want (chicken).
unfortunately games are mostly aimed/marketed at men and as such there is a male bias. there are some companies trying to move towards a more balanced situation which is good but currently big AAA shooty shooty's are aimed towards males.
I don't think it is as bad as it has been in the past however, sure graphics have become better so it looks like it has gotten worse but proportions are slowly coming down to more natural sizes over time (although i wish chicken would get bigger).
it will never entirely go away since it all depends on the marketed audiance for that product.
I'd also like to say as a man i have no idea what women want or would like to see or if they will find it offensive if I desire to have a female character i find attractive in a piece of work i create (although i am terrible at characters and it would probably be a really large chicken breast or she'd have chicken breasts...massive chicken breasts with nandos sauce...).
I never make something with the intention to offend people and I would be upset if i did make something that offended people, but It is difficult to tell if what you want to create will be offensive to others, especially if you are making characters (vegans probably hate me after this post...).
Replies
In the end I think it's always about money. When women won't attract the males like a horde of zombies, then maybe we won't have sexy girls in video games anymore. (And there won't be big boobed girls everywhere in conventions).
As for the graph above regarding the representation of women in movies : Yes, that seems unbalanced. That means that there is probably not enough women directors and writers, and few marketing/production teams lead by women. But the men writing men-oriented movies are not the ones to blame for that. You cannot generate new content by simply pointing fingers at those who are not creating the content you would hope to see more of. (in other words : don't ask an action flick or porn director to write and direct something like Moon). You can, however tilt the balance by simply supporting the kind content that you want to see more of. Or by being directly involved in creating such content - something that is now wildly accessible, with anyone walking around with a HD camera in their pocket, and Unity/UDK/CryEngine being free or affordable.
Also, I do find many arguments about representation to be rather ... juvenile, so to speak. I understand that kids and teens often need role models to closely identify too. (in that regard, the balance is already tilting, with recent kids movies like Wreck It Ralph, Rapunzel, Brave and Frozen). But as adults, I would hope that we would be wise enough to be able to appreciate a good story regardless of the gender, sexual orientation, skin color and job of the main protagonist - even if it is wildly different from ours, and even if the main protagonist is a ruthless killer without morals.
At the end of the day I am very much with Crazyfool on this issue. This forum is great not only because of the criticism given, but also because the persons giving criticism are experienced in the first place, which keeps things on point. In that spirit, I think it would be interesting to actually make the discussion less theorical and more about precise, concrete examples.
I am not suggesting that the problem does not exist - just saying that in the context of the recent years, I dont think I remember many "objectified women" in the games I had the chance to play. But of course, if a game's message was "treat women like objects ! That's all they are good for !" I would be rather unlikely to buy it in the first place anyways.
- I do remember the twins in Duke Nukem Forever to be acting as objects, but I did see it as a satire on the way some people are willing to sell themselves in the name of fame and money in Hollywood. Now Duke is an accomplice of that, and that does make him a despicable character - but again, this is pretty much a caricature of Charlie Sheen and his two girlfriends. And when they die of an horrible death in front of him, he swears to avenge them since he didn't manage to save them. And regardless - I don't think anyone ever tried to imply that DNF is depicting how real people are supposed to act anyways.
- There is that weird MMO in which all the player character are females, and micro-transactions unlock sexier and sexier costumes. In this case I don't see much of a problem either : this is obviously targeted at a specific audience willing to pay to enjoy that, and in no ways does it diminish my or other people's opinion of women.
- Dead or Alive is an interesting example as there is a growing confusion between the core DoA games, and the beach resort / volleyball DoA spinoffs. These games have different target audiences, and different marketing strategies. Now I do understand that some might be "offended" by the shallow way the characters act in the women-only DoA spinoffs, and the way breasts bounce unrealistically in the core DoA fighting games. But again, this is acting (mocap, even), just like porn - no one is saying that this is how women are supposed to act in real life. Are people not allowed to have fantasies anymore ?
Anyways - I don't want to get too involved with the discussion, just curious about concrete recent examples really. I guess I fall into a strange category of males, with my favorite movie being Lola Rennt and one of my favorite games being Mirror's Edge ...
Because people do not have better problems to think of. Or rather people in power doesn't want people to think about more serious issues.
I give you all a hint about one such issue.
Think about recent economic recession. And think about it broader spectrum, what will happen to world economy in next 30 years if we will continue with neo-capitalistic principles.
Well I don't think collapsing is ultimate goal. What I really think is that situation just got out of control, and now they have no idea how fix it. So now the goal is to post pond it as long as possible.
The theory of current economic system was nice, the problem with it, is that is completely detached from reality that is surrounding us. Short version is, it assume that we have infinite resources, and money get value because of trust, not because it represents real physical (or digital) goods.
I like what people in Iceland have done. I wish more people did the same thing.
Can you do us all a favour and take your conspiracy theories elsewhere please, and stop derailing this thread?
1. Political correctness and the victim mentality, if it isnt the "white man" at fault, its some how the "male" at fault.
2. Not enough women in the game, rather entertainment industry. You want to balance delivery out, you need more females interested in this kind of industry. Naturally men will have and deliver more attention to detail as to what they "desire".
The whole concept of "objectifying women" is false because its ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE. My GF who is both a minority and also a non US born citizen also agrees, that for many females, certain portrays are considered empowering. Its entirely dependent upon the mindsent and self identity, or perhaps insecurity, of the female in question. I mean you rarely see male characters, whether overly buff and masculine or wimpy and feminine result in insecure or upset male players. I believe it all comes down to a politically in"correct" view of the world tied to a groups confirmation bias and narrative. Nothing more, nothing less.
Ill end with, if men didnt desire women, based on all parts of their genetic and personal make up (character) then you wouldnt have babies, and quite frankly without reproduction you wouldnt have civilization. Females often value the alpha male more than the beta male, so lets not pretend its one sided here.
in my opinion (i think im off to a good start here), It is up to the creative to decide how characters are portrayed and how they look. naturally you tend to focus or exaggerate more on what you desire (like chicken) and so you end up with these i guess rather curvey characters or muscly characters (or glorious chicken).
when it comes to organised videogame making (large companies) or even film, you get a small group of people at the top making these decisions on how it should look, this will be based on their desires/exaggerations or their thoughts of what the majority of the public/consumers would want (chicken).
unfortunately games are mostly aimed/marketed at men and as such there is a male bias. there are some companies trying to move towards a more balanced situation which is good but currently big AAA shooty shooty's are aimed towards males.
I don't think it is as bad as it has been in the past however, sure graphics have become better so it looks like it has gotten worse but proportions are slowly coming down to more natural sizes over time (although i wish chicken would get bigger).
it will never entirely go away since it all depends on the marketed audiance for that product.
I'd also like to say as a man i have no idea what women want or would like to see or if they will find it offensive if I desire to have a female character i find attractive in a piece of work i create (although i am terrible at characters and it would probably be a really large chicken breast or she'd have chicken breasts...massive chicken breasts with nandos sauce...).
I never make something with the intention to offend people and I would be upset if i did make something that offended people, but It is difficult to tell if what you want to create will be offensive to others, especially if you are making characters (vegans probably hate me after this post...).
Im hungry...