Objectifying women...
interpolator
I recently saw this article on Polycounts Gavin Goulden's work on Bioshock "Buried at Sea"
here: http://kotaku.com/bioshocks-characters-were-not-born-they-had-to-be-mad-1482347062#!
Awesome work... but of course we have in the comments all this stuff about objectifying women. I'm so tired of hearing this. The focus should be on the high quality art, and accomplishments in the game!
Why do some women (and men I guess) still take this stuff personally?
Has anyone ever heard of guys getting pissed about gears of war characters with huge biceps and stuff. "I can never get that big, therefore I am seriously offended!", Sure guys might say it looks stupid, but not feel bad about themselves.
Personally, I'm indifferent on the subject. I like stylized stuff at times and realistic at other times. If its too over the top, then it just looks silly to me.
But, If you want more realism in games don't support the ones that stray from it. It's simple economics that drives these design choices. Please stop crying about it.
here: http://kotaku.com/bioshocks-characters-were-not-born-they-had-to-be-mad-1482347062#!
Awesome work... but of course we have in the comments all this stuff about objectifying women. I'm so tired of hearing this. The focus should be on the high quality art, and accomplishments in the game!
Why do some women (and men I guess) still take this stuff personally?
Has anyone ever heard of guys getting pissed about gears of war characters with huge biceps and stuff. "I can never get that big, therefore I am seriously offended!", Sure guys might say it looks stupid, but not feel bad about themselves.
Personally, I'm indifferent on the subject. I like stylized stuff at times and realistic at other times. If its too over the top, then it just looks silly to me.
But, If you want more realism in games don't support the ones that stray from it. It's simple economics that drives these design choices. Please stop crying about it.
This discussion has been closed.
Replies
"Please stop crying about it."
Cold and unnecessary. The same could be thrown back at you.
Thats a male power fantasy.
The women are a male sexual fantasy.
Hope this helps, and look for the memes in games thread (locked) thread for more discussion.
This is the only comment that pissed me off along with the wall of text after that.
It's like the internet got together and got all the male-whiteknights and the feminists together in a stampede to eradicate anything which has breasts and shows a bit of skin.
This is hardly something to protest about , I think in this case it's very silly.
I read your signature and I'm reporting you to Anita Sharkesian.
[ame="
Now do I think videogames Objectify and have Objectified women disproportionately, yes I do, but I don't think any of these problems are linked infact to videogames, its more deep seeded in our nature and our history, and anyone who disbelieves that needs to read the Odyssey, if ever a woman was seen to be a prize to be won, it can be found in that classic tale.
But humans as a whole are increasingly objectified in the media, characters with big muscles or great skills create a warped view of what it is to be a man as much as this does a woman, but then do I think we should start censoring the right to tell a tale or experience something through the eyes of these gods among men? absolutely not.
[ame="
(go on tell me they were checking out his personality)
the objectification of people through the media whether realistic or unrealistic is a fact of life unfortunately,I don't support it, and fully think it can be damaging to people's images and self esteem, so all I think we can ultimately do is try and educate people that we are all loving human beings with our own independent thoughts, desires and ideas and not merely the pound of flesh that surrounds our bones.
As for Elizabeth herself I found her character rather emotionally deep and did not see her as a sexaul object throughout the first game (have yet to play the DLC) and thank god too! id say more but no spoilers lol
In reality: If someone is better than me at something I feel driven to get better, knowing in many cases it’s impossible for me to achieve what the very best have. It seems that others reaction is to feel bad and inferior. I applaud others for their accomplishments.
In fiction: I know what’s real and what is not. If its distasteful to me I’ll essentially turn it off. There is no logical reason a person should compare themselves to something that has no grounds in reality.
The reason I’m “Cold” is because I think people shouldn’t take this so seriously. And what can really be done about it, other than vote “no” (don’t support things you don’t approve of). Certainly you can’t take away a person’s right to design these characters and it would be a horrible world if you did.
[edit] well said ExcessiveZero
haha!
[ame="
On the other side of it, it is absolutely not fair to say that sexualized male characters, like Gears of War, is on the same level as sexualized female characters. There is a deeper issue besides the visual look of the character and simply saying it is just good art work doesn't make up for it.
When I see a barely clothed lady in games, comics or shows, it seems to insult the intelligence of the viewers and detract from the overall mood of the story. That is no good.
The fan service on the that new "Kill la Kill" and "One Piece" is rather appalling and undermining the bizarre designs, and unusual special attacks.
There was a singing ship, a lady who could turn anything into abstract art, and dude with the power of push and pull; yet all some people care about is "shipping" and how hawt some lady is.
Fellows are always making the beautiful barely clothed ladies instead of the special attack types, that is no good, we are game fellows after all and that should be the most important factor you know? I think we should strive to make more memorable strange characters instead of these heartthrobs and meat dudes.
I know its not gonna change anything really, and starting this thread I was well aware I might get personally attacked for doing so. (It really doesn't bother me if I do get attacked for my opinion in this case).
Funny you say "Sick art GAV!" since I'm defending it, as others have pointed out its a long stretch saying this objectifies women.
That said, it is really interesting hearing the feedback here. I'm pretty surprised its such a hot topic really.
But really, that outfit is oversexed? THAT?! Considering 50's fashion, I'd say it's right on the money... for fuck's sake the skirt goes past the knees!
If anything that persons comment was sexist.
Ok two things I didn’t bother mentioning because I didn’t think it was necessary…
1. Actually I did search and found a thread started by Ben Mathis, (which was closed already), so I started a new thread thinking it was relevant to some people. Since so many have already posted here I think I have proven it was worth starting this thread. Just because its not important to you, (although you still take the time to read this here for some reason) doesn’t mean its not important to everyone, or that everyone is already as informed as you.
2. I did start this thread to defend Gavs art in that, because I felt it was such a stretch that his stuff with bioshock was sexist. Like how far will this go seriously? That was the root of what irritated me enough to start this thread.
However, there is really no point in me explaining this or defending myself.
TeriyakiStyle: But please don’t let this deter you from continuing to post here.
I surerly tell you one thing. I do not give a shit, how man are portrayed in games, or internet, or how woman are, or who ever is. Anyone who treat internet(or any other medium for that matter) seriously and takes everything as personal offence deserve to be hunted by 4chan, and see what it really is to be taken seriously by internet.
These are not women. These are feminists. Feminists are not women. They deserve to be extradited to different galaxy. World will be better without them. They should take along with them other fanatics as well.
Women I know, don't even care about this shit.
tl;dr version.
I'm sick of political correctness, not naming things as they are, instead inventing new phrases to make them less insulting. The point of telling truth as it is, is to make people think.
Now we just make up nice words and and think that nothing really happen. Because hey.. nice words!
Just to be clear. Let them talk whatever they want. But never let situation where I will talk whatever I want and they will feel insulted and mark me as <racist, facist, chauvinist, etc> and try to censor me, because they do not agree with what I'm tell them (and I will not be polite, I will speak as I see it). If you will feel insulted, assaulted or discriminated, you skin in not thick enough to handle the truth or you known from the start that your "arguments" were worthless.
tl;dr 2
World is ending. People don't have better problems, than feeling insulted because of artificial character in entertainment medium. Mark my words. Western world will end in 15 years if people will still care about just minor crap non-issues, rather than some serious ones...
That's my little rant about state of humanity.
All your guys are rough and, in a sense, ugly. The only woman you've made is generically attractive with smooth creamy skin, a form of abstracted perfection. That's essentially what the argument is about.
I am not a fan of getting a handy from some old guy in the steam rooms at my gym so I don't participate but hey maybe it is for some people. I don't burn the place to the ground.
(perhaps i am a bit off in my example but for real...)
I'm going to look for some steamy deviant art pics/models of men to post later, now you guys have to stick to your values and not rage-report it and bawl about having to wash your eyes out with bleach; compare that to how the "feminist" respond and you could say they are showing saintly levels of restraint.
Isn't that how E3 was for so long? All kidding aside...
Snader: yea man, you make a good point. But honestly, I just make what interests me because 3d is such a slow process I need to really like what I'm doing. Also, from an artist standpoint the male characters are extremely good looking in my eyes. By this I mean, strong features and characteristics are what I find most interesting. The one female character I made was inspired by FirstKeeper's Windrunner: http://firstkeeper.deviantart.com/art/Sylvanas-Windrunner-177432486
Which by the way was made by a female!
Wat
Wat???
*facepalm*
Really?
REALLY?
I try to avoid associating myself the school of thought that thinks every single patch of skin in a movie or video game or whatever is some sort of defining moment in the quest for equality, but this just rubbed me the wrong way.
Feminism and feminists are the reason we have things like women's right to voting, women in high political and economic stations, and women being able to do things like go out in public without a man's supervision. Feminism is why we have things like women being educated and making informed decisions about their lives and the lives of others. Feminism is why there is now widespread healthcare for women that can actually cater to their needs and not just give them useless folk medicine. Feminism is why women are now allowed to pick out the clothing they wear. Feminism is why women are not treated as property. Feminism is why women can own property.
Feminism has led to the shocking, shocking realization that women are actually human beings.
If anyone should be shipped off to a different galaxy, it's the people who don't understand the impact of saying stupid, ignorant shit. Like you.
[ame="
"do as I say, not as I do"
It's also frequently a female sexual fantasy.
And yes, in a patriarch world, women get the stick end of the.. er stick. Not fair, not equal, it is what it is.
Plus, when fat ugly women see this sexist objectification, they get offended, grow armpit hair and become feminist (of the bad type), all cuz they know they'll never reach that ideal standard.
Fat ugly men just jerk off and move on. We don't care. He-Man super ripped and awesome? Fuck yea!
However, if that same person starts spouting off calling the guy (or GAL) who made the art, saying they're some sex-deprived loser who is destroying equality, then they're just showing ignorance. You cannot shame artists out of creating idealized subject matter, and you cannot cleanse the world of art that you do not like!
I respect any woman who says "this piece of art makes me feel this way because of this" and I want our industry to be full of as much diversity as possible! If game studios had 50% women, that would be nothing but beneficial in my opinion. But the women (and men) who see a piece of art, especially one as stylized (AND TAME) as Elisabeth, and start slamming the creators, calling them a bunch of pervs who are jerking off as they create art? That's flaming, not helping progress the industry.
And until you understand why it's not, you can't really contribute to these threads outside of cutesy gifs and statements like, "OMG, don't get offended! You have no right!"
Fuck. Maybe it's an age thing, I don't know.
Regardless of where I logically stand on the issue I take offense to that, my girlfriend is a feminist(Shocker I know!), the same rights that allow us to create the content we like, is the same rights that allow people to express their views.
I think I made a very clear point about society objectification, which is aimed disproportionately at women, but its a shame we can't have a reasonable debate when there are so many fanatics on both sides when we could just get on with discussing this completely reasonable issue.
For example, when I see Elisabeth from Bioshock, I see a technically great model, based on a concept that incorporates "noir" features and the ideal body shape from an era when women shaped their curves by wearing a corset. It is a modern adaptation and a stylized version of a woman from a particular era. And both the concept (art) as well as the rendering are very well accomplished. So all I see is a great model + a job well done.
That these features don't pertain to any existing/real life counterpart should be just as clear. Even that Russian lookalike needs a lot of push ups and helpers to look that much like Elisabeth.
And this may be the flaw maybe - we keep translating games into reality. But games are fictional and don't mean to mimick real life. At best they comment on it, like the GTA series does; but that is Satire (which is also not understood very well any more). We have to stop confusing games with life. It's been proven that violence and gaming are hardly related, so why are some people still riding the generic "games are objectifying women" routine?
-> actually, technically speaking it is even true, because everything in games is just an object, either dynamic or static.