you can set the sliders to whatever numerical value you want to, by simply typing that value into the box.
ah, well I feel silly now
And yes I am aware of that, it's just that if I have let's say a 55% gloss value, and it doesn't feel completely right, I prefer to tweak it in the viewport a bit untill it looks good, so that I have an idea of where it should be, and then set it back to 1 instead of having to wait for QSM to save my map 8 times in a row.
Does anyone have an asset that uses an anisotropic direction map for hair (or anything really)? Andres is working on the aniso shader but we're lacking for test content.
Does anyone have an asset that uses an anisotropic direction map for hair (or anything really)? Andres is working on the aniso shader but we're lacking for test content.
the character i posted before has working hair texture but no direction map. i just have 4k diffuse+alpha, normal and spec for the hair. if that will help i can send you the files.
-a gamma correction slider for the hdri image to help contrast them
-a way to just turn on and off a map without removing it
-i did find the chromatique aberration feature but it work only with DOF, the old one was much more easy to use.
Does anyone have an asset that uses an anisotropic direction map for hair (or anything really)? Andres is working on the aniso shader but we're lacking for test content.
This might sound dumb, but where is the direction map slot?
That's an interesting question, as far as I know with our implementation Fresnel is a separate component that can be adjusted independantly. Unfortunately Jeff is on vacation atm so I can't bug him about it, we had many philosophical discussions on Fresnel behavior and came up with the implementation that we have now, which I think works quite well.
I'll try to remember to ask him about it when he gets back.
Well, for me i would also think fresnel as some kind of specular modulation.
so far with my test, i end up turning it of because i didn't like the way it work, giving this rim like specular that is hard to control. I'm more used to the way it work in vray for instance.
TO EVERYONE WHO IS HAVING PROBLEMS WITH SCENES NOT SAVING TEXTURES:
We may have narrowed this down a bit, I've finally managed to reproduce this bug (with seth.'s help). I've got the bug logged, but for now please try to do the following and see if it helps:
A. Avoid: spaces anywhere in the folder structure or file names
B. Save your .tbscene file above the folder where you textures are, ie:
asset/textures/*.tga and asset/scene.tbscene
Avoid: asset/textures/*.tga and asset/scenes/scene.tbscene
Let me know if following these rules fixes the issue for anyone!
-Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but I miss auto-reloading of a mesh or it updating when you re-open the file.
-I always found texturing in PS a bit akward to get base values, because there are always some waiting times.
Kinda wish there the sliders could go above 1, or there was a way when you imported a HP and put some materials on it to export all the diffuse/spec/gloss values of the materials you made to a single text file (in rbg) or an image that you can colorpick from.
-Everytime you change the scene from the original start scene it asks if you want to save it, but when you make changes to your current scene and close the program it never does.
-With all these metals, and looking at my diffuse, I can really see how good a metalness map is, so that is next on the to try list.
edit:
DOF and taking a screenshot, the DOF is always "shorter", so you also have to up the slider just a notch, and take a screenshot to see if it is right.
And when the DOF falls between a certain value (or the bokeh size) where there is still a good noticable effect in the viewport, it's as good as completely gone in the screenshot.
Hey, would it be possible to get a screenshot (just printscreen and paste into PS) and an exported shot for comparison? I can't seem to reproduce this DOF bug.
Also, any info about your image export settings and your video card would be good to know as well
I'm sure EQ will jump in and correct anything i say that's incorrect here. but i'll give it a go anyway.
you can set the sliders to whatever numerical value you want to, by simply typing that value into the box.
- BUT -
in a physical workflow that's not needed. when you take the specular/reflectance to 1, that's the maximum it can go to. you need to be aware that if you push above that you will start to see artifacts. the same is true for gloss, as 1 is an "infinite" highight, meaning that pushing it past 1 could again cause artifacts or your light reflections could simply disappear.
Yep, pretty much this. Generally I lock all the shader values to 1 and do all my tweaking in PS, it can be slow/painful to batch save a bunch of large maps after small changes, but its really the most accurate way.
And as Lee says, you can manually turn the values up past the slider max if you need to do.
-a gamma correction slider for the hdri image to help contrast them
Its not a gamma curve, but currently you can adjust the contrast of the IBL by expanding the "Selective Brightness" tab in the sky light properties and playing with the values
-a way to just turn on and off a map without removing it
Yeah me too, I think this is on the todo list.
-i did find the chromatique aberration feature but it work only with DOF, the old one was much more easy to use.
Currently we don't have chromatic aberration as a post process but this is on the to-do list as well. The Circle (aberration) bokeh shape preset is really something else entirely.
fresnel isn't specular modulation at all... fresnel is an integral part of accurate specular calculations.
EVERYTHING has fresnel, different things have different fresnel values, sure. but everything has fresnel.
putting it very simply, fresnel is the phenomenon where light appears to be brighter/broader when reflecting at a glancing angle. nothing more. the reason we have a slider to fuck around with values at all, is purely down to "artists choice". when it's actually just a straight forward mathematical fact.
fresnel isn't specular modulation at all... fresnel is an integral part of accurate specular calculations.
EVERYTHING has fresnel, different things have different fresnel values, sure. but everything has fresnel.
putting it very simply, fresnel is the phenomenon where light appears to be brighter/broader when reflecting at a glancing angle. nothing more. the reason we have a slider to fuck around with values at all, is purely down to "artists choice". when it's actually just a straight forward mathematical fact.
Yeah, this is pretty much the response I get every time I've brought it up with our engineers.
So how it works is: Fresnel should always be set to 1, because everything has Fresnel. Fresnel is the phenomenon observed when grazing light hit an object and causes it to be 100% reflective.
This is my understanding of it at least.
However, early on in testing we realized that setting it to 1 in itself doesn't really work for all materials, as the micro-surface of the object also comes into play as rougher materials will naturally cause reflection occlusion and will result in a less intense Fresnel. So, we also mask the Fresnel intensity by the gloss map as well.
Now if you want the Fresnel to "add on top" of the specular component you can actually do that. Manually type in a value higher than the specular intensity into the text field and it will do that. If you end up with values higher than 1 this isn't physically accurate to do in any way though, once you've got a value over 1 that means your object is reflecting more light than it receives.
Well saying "when it's actually just a straight forward mathematical fact." is not quite right, cause different materials has different index of refraction, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refractive_index
That changes on what angle the surface starts to rise in reflection, this is what I expect to happen when changing the fresnel value in toolbag.
it's my first experience with pbr, so if anyone sees me say something that's not correct, or sees something that's just bad/wrong in the textures, feel free to correct me.
Diffuse: pretty straightforward, metals are black (unless they are extremely worn, but didn't really have that), and the rest is just pure color.
because 90% was metal didn't really have a lot do here.
what I did notice is that you really have to be carefull not to make things to dark, I was sort of surprised in the black rubbery piece how light the diffuse colour actually was.
Spec: just started with the base values from a chart that you can find here: http://seblagarde.wordpress.com/2011/08/17/feeding-a-physical-based-lighting-mode/
And then just kept myself to "only change the spec or add things if there is an actual change of material"
(altough I might have gone wrong with the brass, it had some very noticable colour difference in the ref, and wasn't 100% sure if that had to go in the spec or the metal was more worn and the colour was more in the diffuse, not completely familiar with how that metal ages/wears).
Gloss: most of the work was done here, just tried to imagine a bit what would happen to the surface (like if you rub rubber in the same area a lot it becomes a bit more glossy, or the plated chrome, it would wear out at the edges and start to get dull there, or the small spots) and the things that actually would affect the surface (dents/deep scratches) I carried over to the normal map a bit.
overall after the initial start it was fun, everything makes more sense, and if you have textured in marmoset1, the step is actually very small.
the previous shots are a bit ridiculous in terms of texture size, it's a 4k, wich is actually overkill, but I was kind of scared because the uv's aren't exactly the greatest (very little mirroring going) and I wanted to do some really nice close up shots.
Joeriv thats awesome thanks for sharing your thought process and the flats i really appreciate has i still feel like the pbr workflow is figthing with old habits inside my head :P so thanks a lot btw i am guessing you kept the specular and gloss values at 1 in the shader? thanks in advance and keep up the awesome work
yes i also agree with the fact that every object has fresnel, that why i think it should in some way modulate the specular in mamroset to get realistic looking material.
here is the way it work in vray, the lower the ior the less reflective, the higher, the more reflective material.
i don't say this is the best way to do or use fresnel but i find it simple to use (ok i like vray so what ...)
Had a few people asking me about skin, and how to do it... So i figured rather than answer everyone individually, i'd just post up my very work in progress elf-head that i've been abusing in TB2.
zip file contains the toolbag scene and the texture files (flattened) used to achieve the final look.
maps used for skin:
- Normals
- Albedo
- Subdermis
- Gloss
- Transmission
- Cavity
Here's my process (roughly, i'm still refining it).
- Use normalmap in knald to generate cavity/convexity maps, combine in photoshop to get a result you're happy with.
- Specular intensity should be constant across the surface, it's all one surface (skin) and therefor how reflective it is should not change!
- Gloss should also be fairly constant. there are "hotspots" in a face though, like the lips, nose, and forhead. you would also paint sweat into the gloss map.
- Albedo is largely flat colour, in the yellow spectrum mostly. flat colour only, don't bake in lighting! Albedo for skin should be thought of as the epidermis.
- Subdermal should be (for humans) mostly reds/pinks, but use this map to bring your skin to life! Subdermal colours should be used for anything that's under the skin but still influences final colour... blood veins, bone showing through where the flesh is thinner etc.
- Transmission generated in Knald also. i'm currently using it "as is", but i'm going to be doing my final versions as coloured transmission maps, as the light transmitted through the ear results in a different colour than through the lips, for example.
Thanks Gir. I was wondering how you were getting such a smooth result, I think you're making much better use of the translucency map than I was doing, and a couple other great tweeks here.
when i originally created the cavity map, it was a 16bit rgb map. toolbag loaded it fine. i then converted it to an 8bit grayscale, toolbag reloaded it fine. when people try to open the scene (and myself, too) the file no longer loads into toolbag.
so if people want the cavity map to work, please convert it from grayscale to rgb in photoshop and resave, it will then work fine. but the above bug needs adressing too :P
just been messing with everything in general to try to see what could be improved and this is just some minor tweaking that would improve general ease of use and user experience.
1: drop down menu with right click:
1.2 add/delete meshes and lights
1.3 create material and assign it to selected mesh (alternative could be over the mesh that the mouse is hovering currently)
1.4 Swith to camera and then a sub menu with cameras available
2. Lighthing presets: this would enable us to save certain sky settings including child lights and allow for several light set ups for characters
3. maybe move the gloss near the spec i just find it confusing and bothersome that they are so far apart has sometimes files for albedo and spec are not in the same folder and it just takes a bit longer than if they were together.
4: this is very minor but i think grouping of the materials would improve ease of use specially in scenes with lots of materials either that or in the suggested right click drop down menu an option to select the material of the mesh your mouse is hovering.
5. capture settings should have an option for window size.
6. this is just something extra but it would be nice for an auto import textures feature like Ddo where it searches for the same name like jacket and then searches for the suffix _normal, _albedo/difuse , etc...
all of this is really minor but i think it would improve the overall experience
EDIT: found a bug where sometimes if you have 2 characters loaded save and load again the scene with those characters even if one is toggled as invisible it will still show up and you will need to tick on and off the visibility box again for it to disapear
Edit2: another bug, when the mesh is invisible but is on top of the mesh you want to select the mesh that is invisible will be selected instead
I found a weird bug.
look at the image, it look like the UV are broken while outside the 0-1 UV. almost like a bad triangulation.
if i put the uv back to 0-1 it look the way it should.
I tried the same mesh in marmoset 1.10, it look good.
you can get the mesh here: www.maddamart.com/images/UV.rar
Hi everyone, I'm very happy to be part of the beta for this wonderful tool!
This is my first test, it's a simple model I made a while ago.
So far Toolbag 2 is great, but there are a couple of things I don't quite understand:
- COLOR SPACE -
I really appreciate that the camera output is Linear, but I'm having hard time to match the tones of my model to match the result I get in other packages. As you can see from the sample below, the first image is rendered in Octane Render, which by default uses Linear space workflow. If you look at the HDR background image, the colors and the brightness match with the one in Marmoset, so that's great, however, my albedo textures doesn't quite match. If I check the option "Use sRGB Color Space" I get a more contrasted/saturated image, and if I uncheck it I get a more "washed out" desaturated result. That's kinda bothers me, because I don't want to have different texture set for rendering engines and Marmoset, I want to use the same.
- TRANSPARENCY -
To be honest, I was a bit disappointed about the new dithered transparency, mainly because it doesn't really give me a sense of transparency, but more of a dissolving effect. Also, (correct me if I'm wrong) I couldn't find anywhere the Double Sided option for the material, so basically the inside of a transparent object becomes invisible, and that's not really what I would expect.
Another problem of transparency is it ignores completely the Gloss settings. I would expect a semi-transparent glossy material to have a blurred transparency, according to the Gloss setting.
- ON-SCREEN ICONS -
This is a minor thing, but I find quite annoying not being able to hide the on-screen icons, for example the Lights icons. When I save the image they go away, but most of the time I like to show my model in the real-time viewport, and those Icons are distracting.
- CHARACTER ANIMATION -
Is it no longer supported? Or is it a future feature?
- FOCUS PICK -
I remember an old Marmoset version that had focus picker. It was really usefull, why is it gone?
==== BUGS ==== (I apologize if they have been already reported)
- Copy/Paste of values doesn't work (for example, from Photoshop if I want to copy a web code of a color to paste into Marmoset, that doesn't work)
- Turntable resets the HDR background to the default rotation, then once stopped it goes back to the rotation I set.
- It's not possible to delete a material from the stack, if I select a material and hit delete, it just creates a new default one.
This are the problems/question I found so far, I will test it intensively in the upcoming days, meanwhile great work guys, it's really the best tool an artist can have to show off his work! Thank you!
Toolbag 2.0 is really cool. Super fast and the new sIBL loaded is lightning fast! even loading in 20 MB .hdr's.
Also some great posts in here, awesome work. :thumbup:
The Local Reflections are incredible. I just tried some tests with an old hair model I have that was made by Dani Garcia (also his character) I think there is huge potential here. Again very fast. These were rendered out at 24x Temporal AA. It would be nice to have upto 24x Temporal in the viewport, live for more powerful machines to use.
Been slowly messing with spec and gloss in the skin as well as tweaking some settings in the shader and now it looks fairly decent under most lighting conditions
also the new system for lighting is kinda great because you can grab the colors from the floors and walls and sort of fake radiosity and bouncing light although its not perfect it doesn't look nice
Some more tests. Local Reflections really do tie things together nicely. It would be nice to have some more control over the Secondary Reflections, which ever method is used. It would also be cool to have a micro bump slot as well, for fine details, along with cavity map slot to break up specular reflections at a micro level.
It would also be cool to have a micro bump slot as well, for fine details, along with cavity map slot to break up specular reflections at a micro level.
When you select your normal map, you can switch from "Normal Map", to "Detail Normal Map", which allows you to add a detail normal map, on top of your regular normal map.
When you select your normal map, you can switch from "Normal Map", to "Detail Normal Map", which allows you to add a detail normal map, on top of your regular normal map.
Time for some more interesting test. This is my Heisenberg, rendered in Marmoset 2. I just did a small color correction in Photoshop, but that's basically how it looks in the viewport.
A couple of more thoughts:
- At the moment the fresnel is NOT occluded by the Ambient Occlusion, and that's annoying because it creates unwanted bright lines where is supposed to be occluded.
- The workflow for the eyes is a bit tricky. I have an inner geometry, with the eye texture, and an outside geometry for the reflection (and hopefully in the future refraction) but I cannot blend properly the two objects to keep both a strong reflection as well as the transparency. It would be nice to separate reflections from transparency. If anyone knows some trick to do proper eyes reflection, please tell me.
Anyway, I'm very pleased with the new shaders, they look really good!
The stuff in this thread is so impressive, I can't wait to get my hands on Toolbag 2.
stefanobernardi mentioned that he tried Toolbag 2 on an older MacBook Pro with less than stellar results. Has anyone tried running it on newer portable hardware? Is it remotely usable on something like a Surface Pro?
Did a quick render of Sam Hatami's flame thrower, keep in mind it's a wip
I would like a way to apply post-process effects while seeing the whole screen, cause now when changing vignetting I have to tweak, hide ui, tweak, hide ui... and so on.
just been messing with everything in general to try to see what could be improved and this is just some minor tweaking that would improve general ease of use and user experience.
1: drop down menu with right click:
1.2 add/delete meshes and lights
1.3 create material and assign it to selected mesh (alternative could be over the mesh that the mouse is hovering currently)
1.4 Swith to camera and then a sub menu with cameras available
2. Lighthing presets: this would enable us to save certain sky settings including child lights and allow for several light set ups for characters
3. maybe move the gloss near the spec i just find it confusing and bothersome that they are so far apart has sometimes files for albedo and spec are not in the same folder and it just takes a bit longer than if they were together.
4: this is very minor but i think grouping of the materials would improve ease of use specially in scenes with lots of materials either that or in the suggested right click drop down menu an option to select the material of the mesh your mouse is hovering.
5. capture settings should have an option for window size.
First off, thanks for the feeback! I'm a little confused by this last one, what do you mean by window size? You can set the resolution in the output options, do you mean a setting for aspect ratio?
6. this is just something extra but it would be nice for an auto import textures feature like Ddo where it searches for the same name like jacket and then searches for the suffix _normal, _albedo/difuse , etc...
all of this is really minor but i think it would improve the overall experience
EDIT: found a bug where sometimes if you have 2 characters loaded save and load again the scene with those characters even if one is toggled as invisible it will still show up and you will need to tick on and off the visibility box again for it to disapear
Edit2: another bug, when the mesh is invisible but is on top of the mesh you want to select the mesh that is invisible will be selected instead
I found a weird bug.
look at the image, it look like the UV are broken while outside the 0-1 UV. almost like a bad triangulation.
if i put the uv back to 0-1 it look the way it should.
I tried the same mesh in marmoset 1.10, it look good.
you can get the mesh here: www.maddamart.com/images/UV.rar
Good catch, I've tested it on my end with another asset and get the same issue as well. I've got this logged as a bug now, thanks!
Hi everyone, I'm very happy to be part of the beta for this wonderful tool!
This is my first test, it's a simple model I made a while ago.
So far Toolbag 2 is great, but there are a couple of things I don't quite understand:
- COLOR SPACE -
I really appreciate that the camera output is Linear, but I'm having hard time to match the tones of my model to match the result I get in other packages. As you can see from the sample below, the first image is rendered in Octane Render, which by default uses Linear space workflow. If you look at the HDR background image, the colors and the brightness match with the one in Marmoset, so that's great, however, my albedo textures doesn't quite match. If I check the option "Use sRGB Color Space" I get a more contrasted/saturated image, and if I uncheck it I get a more "washed out" desaturated result. That's kinda bothers me, because I don't want to have different texture set for rendering engines and Marmoset, I want to use the same.
This looks great! Unfortunately we are not privy to how the Octane render handles its color space, so it will be very difficult to get an exact match.
- TRANSPARENCY -
To be honest, I was a bit disappointed about the new dithered transparency, mainly because it doesn't really give me a sense of transparency, but more of a dissolving effect. Also, (correct me if I'm wrong) I couldn't find anywhere the Double Sided option for the material, so basically the inside of a transparent object becomes invisible, and that's not really what I would expect.
Another problem of transparency is it ignores completely the Gloss settings. I would expect a semi-transparent glossy material to have a blurred transparency, according to the Gloss setting.
The dithered order independent blending is probably not what you're looking for here. Its great for simple alpha blends like hair, but for more complex surfaces like glass etc you will probably want something different.
We will have a refraction option at some point which will provide more advanced options, though it may have issues with sorting as realtime implementations tend to.
Double sided is on the to-do list, just hasn't gotten in yet.
- ON-SCREEN ICONS -
This is a minor thing, but I find quite annoying not being able to hide the on-screen icons, for example the Lights icons. When I save the image they go away, but most of the time I like to show my model in the real-time viewport, and those Icons are distracting.
- CHARACTER ANIMATION -
Is it no longer supported? Or is it a future feature?
Animation is not currently supported. Animation will not be a day one feature but is something we will add as an update at some point. Its a really big, complex issue so its going to take some time to do well.
- FOCUS PICK -
I remember an old Marmoset version that had focus picker. It was really usefull, why is it gone?
==== BUGS ==== (I apologize if they have been already reported)
- Copy/Paste of values doesn't work (for example, from Photoshop if I want to copy a web code of a color to paste into Marmoset, that doesn't work)
- Turntable resets the HDR background to the default rotation, then once stopped it goes back to the rotation I set.
- It's not possible to delete a material from the stack, if I select a material and hit delete, it just creates a new default one.
This should only be the case if you are deleting the sole material in the scene. For technical reason there always needs to be one material in the scene (to be applied to any meshes that are in the scene). If you have more than one material, deleting a material should not create another one, though if it does, let me know.
This are the problems/question I found so far, I will test it intensively in the upcoming days, meanwhile great work guys, it's really the best tool an artist can have to show off his work! Thank you!
Toolbag 2.0 is really cool. Super fast and the new sIBL loaded is lightning fast! even loading in 20 MB .hdr's.
Also some great posts in here, awesome work. :thumbup:
The Local Reflections are incredible. I just tried some tests with an old hair model I have that was made by Dani Garcia (also his character) I think there is huge potential here. Again very fast. These were rendered out at 24x Temporal AA. It would be nice to have upto 24x Temporal in the viewport, live for more powerful machines to use.
So if toolbag 2 is a separate purchase can we still expect development on Toolbag 1 to continue?
Also I know you stated that exact pricing models haven't been figured out but will there be an option for existing TB1 users to upgrade to TB2 at a discounted price?
Some more tests. Local Reflections really do tie things together nicely. It would be nice to have some more control over the Secondary Reflections, which ever method is used. It would also be cool to have a micro bump slot as well, for fine details, along with cavity map slot to break up specular reflections at a micro level.
Warning. Some mild CG nudity!! :poly142:
Looking great as always Lee. Unfortunately the secondary reflections got sort of busted with some recent changes we made (when the materials got re-ordered), that's something we'll look into fixing, you're right that we need more control over it.
As Drew mentions, detail normal maps are in there, but detail cavity maps are not. I will add that to the suggestion list here. Thanks!
Time for some more interesting test. This is my Heisenberg, rendered in Marmoset 2. I just did a small color correction in Photoshop, but that's basically how it looks in the viewport.
A couple of more thoughts:
- At the moment the fresnel is NOT occluded by the Ambient Occlusion, and that's annoying because it creates unwanted bright lines where is supposed to be occluded.
- The workflow for the eyes is a bit tricky. I have an inner geometry, with the eye texture, and an outside geometry for the reflection (and hopefully in the future refraction) but I cannot blend properly the two objects to keep both a strong reflection as well as the transparency. It would be nice to separate reflections from transparency. If anyone knows some trick to do proper eyes reflection, please tell me.
Anyway, I'm very pleased with the new shaders, they look really good!
This looks really cool, I'm especially impressed by how nice the hat and suit look. I would love to see a material breakdown there if you have the time.
Fresnel is not occluded by ambient occlusion. Ambient occlussion only occludes ambient (skylight) diffuse lighting.
Cavity maps however, occlude both ambient light, and specular reflections(including fresnel), you may be able to get what you're after by including the content you wish to mask out of the fresnel contribution into a cavity map.
The workflow for eyes is not ideal at this point. We will likely have a more custom solution specifically for eyes at some point in the future.
The stuff in this thread is so impressive, I can't wait to get my hands on Toolbag 2.
stefanobernardi mentioned that he tried Toolbag 2 on an older MacBook Pro with less than stellar results. Has anyone tried running it on newer portable hardware? Is it remotely usable on something like a Surface Pro?
Toolbag 2.0 performance is tied directly to how good your GPU is. Unfortunately most older laptops and tablets have poor video cards.
I've ran it on an older Lenovo X220 with I5 and, I think Intel 4000 GPU. Its pretty slow on that sort of setup. It runs much better on my Sager with I7 and nvidia 675M, but is outpaced by pretty much any desktop pc with a recent mid-high end GPU.
I think the new Surface Pro 2 has intel 4000 GPU, so that is going to be about the bare minimum to run it, and performance will likely not be very good.
So if toolbag 2 is a separate purchase can we still expect development on Toolbag 1 to continue?
Also I know you stated that exact pricing models haven't been figured out but will there be an option for existing TB1 users to upgrade to TB2 at a discounted price?
Toolbag 1 will continue to be maintained/supported but new features will not be added. All efforts to develop new features and functionality will be focused on Toolbag 2.
I'm sorry I can't comment on pricing information yet. Pricing and release dates should be announced soon.
Toolbag 2.0 performance is tied directly to how good your GPU is. Unfortunately most older laptops and tablets have poor video cards.
I've ran it on an older Lenovo X220 with I5 and, I think Intel 4000 GPU. Its pretty slow on that sort of setup. It runs much better on my Sager with I7 and nvidia 675M, but is outpaced by pretty much any desktop pc with a recent mid-high end GPU.
I think the new Surface Pro 2 has intel 4000 GPU, so that is going to be about the bare minimum to run it, and performance will likely not be very good.
Thanks for the quick response, EarthQuake! I wasn't expecting anything more than barely workable. I've got a desktop workstation at the house for the heavy lifting, but hate being chained to my desk. I've been pleasantly surprised with the performance of these newer Intel mobile chipsets in other content creation applications.
According to some quick research, the X220 uses the Intel HD 3000 GPU. Most benchmarks put the HD 4000 at about a 30-50% advantage over the HD 3000, so this revelation is somewhat promising.
I'd be happy to do some testing if you've got any more beta invites to give out. :icon15:
Replies
ah, well I feel silly now
And yes I am aware of that, it's just that if I have let's say a 55% gloss value, and it doesn't feel completely right, I prefer to tweak it in the viewport a bit untill it looks good, so that I have an idea of where it should be, and then set it back to 1 instead of having to wait for QSM to save my map 8 times in a row.
Have you tried turning it on and off again?
the character i posted before has working hair texture but no direction map. i just have 4k diffuse+alpha, normal and spec for the hair. if that will help i can send you the files.
Some features request
-a gamma correction slider for the hdri image to help contrast them
-a way to just turn on and off a map without removing it
-i did find the chromatique aberration feature but it work only with DOF, the old one was much more easy to use.
This might sound dumb, but where is the direction map slot?
Well, for me i would also think fresnel as some kind of specular modulation.
so far with my test, i end up turning it of because i didn't like the way it work, giving this rim like specular that is hard to control. I'm more used to the way it work in vray for instance.
We may have narrowed this down a bit, I've finally managed to reproduce this bug (with seth.'s help). I've got the bug logged, but for now please try to do the following and see if it helps:
A. Avoid: spaces anywhere in the folder structure or file names
B. Save your .tbscene file above the folder where you textures are, ie:
asset/textures/*.tga and asset/scene.tbscene
Avoid: asset/textures/*.tga and asset/scenes/scene.tbscene
Let me know if following these rules fixes the issue for anyone!
Hey, would it be possible to get a screenshot (just printscreen and paste into PS) and an exported shot for comparison? I can't seem to reproduce this DOF bug.
Also, any info about your image export settings and your video card would be good to know as well
Yep, pretty much this. Generally I lock all the shader values to 1 and do all my tweaking in PS, it can be slow/painful to batch save a bunch of large maps after small changes, but its really the most accurate way.
And as Lee says, you can manually turn the values up past the slider max if you need to do.
Sweet!
Its not a gamma curve, but currently you can adjust the contrast of the IBL by expanding the "Selective Brightness" tab in the sky light properties and playing with the values
Yeah me too, I think this is on the todo list.
Currently we don't have chromatic aberration as a post process but this is on the to-do list as well. The Circle (aberration) bokeh shape preset is really something else entirely.
Thanks for the feedback!
EVERYTHING has fresnel, different things have different fresnel values, sure. but everything has fresnel.
putting it very simply, fresnel is the phenomenon where light appears to be brighter/broader when reflecting at a glancing angle. nothing more. the reason we have a slider to fuck around with values at all, is purely down to "artists choice". when it's actually just a straight forward mathematical fact.
Yeah, this is pretty much the response I get every time I've brought it up with our engineers.
So how it works is: Fresnel should always be set to 1, because everything has Fresnel. Fresnel is the phenomenon observed when grazing light hit an object and causes it to be 100% reflective.
This is my understanding of it at least.
However, early on in testing we realized that setting it to 1 in itself doesn't really work for all materials, as the micro-surface of the object also comes into play as rougher materials will naturally cause reflection occlusion and will result in a less intense Fresnel. So, we also mask the Fresnel intensity by the gloss map as well.
Now if you want the Fresnel to "add on top" of the specular component you can actually do that. Manually type in a value higher than the specular intensity into the text field and it will do that. If you end up with values higher than 1 this isn't physically accurate to do in any way though, once you've got a value over 1 that means your object is reflecting more light than it receives.
for example, metal fresnel seems to be a fairly tight, short falloff, while a cardboard box would give a much broader falloff.
That changes on what angle the surface starts to rise in reflection, this is what I expect to happen when changing the fresnel value in toolbag.
I don't have all the technical or theoretical details about this, but using physicaly based renders before we did set a ior value for out materials, using this list.
http://forums.cgsociety.org/archive/index.php/t-513458.html
edit: velvet for example uses a different ior curve than other materials.
in case that's not supposed to happen:
top row shows the DOF being less.
bottom row is it dissapearing after. (by either lowering the max bokeh size or far blur)
http://imageshack.us/a/img833/6315/9w2v.jpg
capture settings:
http://imageshack.us/a/img203/1374/a257.jpg
video card is a ati 7870 LE
Diffuse: pretty straightforward, metals are black (unless they are extremely worn, but didn't really have that), and the rest is just pure color.
because 90% was metal didn't really have a lot do here.
what I did notice is that you really have to be carefull not to make things to dark, I was sort of surprised in the black rubbery piece how light the diffuse colour actually was.
Spec: just started with the base values from a chart that you can find here:
http://seblagarde.wordpress.com/2011/08/17/feeding-a-physical-based-lighting-mode/
And then just kept myself to "only change the spec or add things if there is an actual change of material"
(altough I might have gone wrong with the brass, it had some very noticable colour difference in the ref, and wasn't 100% sure if that had to go in the spec or the metal was more worn and the colour was more in the diffuse, not completely familiar with how that metal ages/wears).
Gloss: most of the work was done here, just tried to imagine a bit what would happen to the surface (like if you rub rubber in the same area a lot it becomes a bit more glossy, or the plated chrome, it would wear out at the edges and start to get dull there, or the small spots) and the things that actually would affect the surface (dents/deep scratches) I carried over to the normal map a bit.
overall after the initial start it was fun, everything makes more sense, and if you have textured in marmoset1, the step is actually very small.
flats:
http://imageshack.us/a/img266/412/64sn.jpg
and the asset itself:
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/2563/mxfu.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img842/63/lu2y.jpg
the previous shots are a bit ridiculous in terms of texture size, it's a 4k, wich is actually overkill, but I was kind of scared because the uv's aren't exactly the greatest (very little mirroring going) and I wanted to do some really nice close up shots.
shot that is resized to a more reasonable 2k.
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/4240/7qnn.png
and a 1k shot:
http://imageshack.us/a/img202/3719/uvmw.png
here is the way it work in vray, the lower the ior the less reflective, the higher, the more reflective material.
i don't say this is the best way to do or use fresnel but i find it simple to use
Had a few people asking me about skin, and how to do it... So i figured rather than answer everyone individually, i'd just post up my very work in progress elf-head that i've been abusing in TB2.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/stk6oet5ryamjk5/Glorfindel.zip
zip file contains the toolbag scene and the texture files (flattened) used to achieve the final look.
maps used for skin:
- Normals
- Albedo
- Subdermis
- Gloss
- Transmission
- Cavity
Here's my process (roughly, i'm still refining it).
- Use normalmap in knald to generate cavity/convexity maps, combine in photoshop to get a result you're happy with.
- Specular intensity should be constant across the surface, it's all one surface (skin) and therefor how reflective it is should not change!
- Gloss should also be fairly constant. there are "hotspots" in a face though, like the lips, nose, and forhead. you would also paint sweat into the gloss map.
- Albedo is largely flat colour, in the yellow spectrum mostly. flat colour only, don't bake in lighting! Albedo for skin should be thought of as the epidermis.
- Subdermal should be (for humans) mostly reds/pinks, but use this map to bring your skin to life! Subdermal colours should be used for anything that's under the skin but still influences final colour... blood veins, bone showing through where the flesh is thinner etc.
- Transmission generated in Knald also. i'm currently using it "as is", but i'm going to be doing my final versions as coloured transmission maps, as the light transmitted through the ear results in a different colour than through the lips, for example.
If so I will wait until it comes out whenever that is.
when i originally created the cavity map, it was a 16bit rgb map. toolbag loaded it fine. i then converted it to an 8bit grayscale, toolbag reloaded it fine. when people try to open the scene (and myself, too) the file no longer loads into toolbag.
so if people want the cavity map to work, please convert it from grayscale to rgb in photoshop and resave, it will then work fine. but the above bug needs adressing too :P
1: drop down menu with right click:
1.2 add/delete meshes and lights
1.3 create material and assign it to selected mesh (alternative could be over the mesh that the mouse is hovering currently)
1.4 Swith to camera and then a sub menu with cameras available
2. Lighthing presets: this would enable us to save certain sky settings including child lights and allow for several light set ups for characters
3. maybe move the gloss near the spec i just find it confusing and bothersome that they are so far apart has sometimes files for albedo and spec are not in the same folder and it just takes a bit longer than if they were together.
4: this is very minor but i think grouping of the materials would improve ease of use specially in scenes with lots of materials either that or in the suggested right click drop down menu an option to select the material of the mesh your mouse is hovering.
5. capture settings should have an option for window size.
6. this is just something extra but it would be nice for an auto import textures feature like Ddo where it searches for the same name like jacket and then searches for the suffix _normal, _albedo/difuse , etc...
all of this is really minor but i think it would improve the overall experience
EDIT: found a bug where sometimes if you have 2 characters loaded save and load again the scene with those characters even if one is toggled as invisible it will still show up and you will need to tick on and off the visibility box again for it to disapear
Edit2: another bug, when the mesh is invisible but is on top of the mesh you want to select the mesh that is invisible will be selected instead
look at the image, it look like the UV are broken while outside the 0-1 UV. almost like a bad triangulation.
if i put the uv back to 0-1 it look the way it should.
I tried the same mesh in marmoset 1.10, it look good.
you can get the mesh here:
www.maddamart.com/images/UV.rar
This is my first test, it's a simple model I made a while ago.
So far Toolbag 2 is great, but there are a couple of things I don't quite understand:
- COLOR SPACE -
I really appreciate that the camera output is Linear, but I'm having hard time to match the tones of my model to match the result I get in other packages. As you can see from the sample below, the first image is rendered in Octane Render, which by default uses Linear space workflow. If you look at the HDR background image, the colors and the brightness match with the one in Marmoset, so that's great, however, my albedo textures doesn't quite match. If I check the option "Use sRGB Color Space" I get a more contrasted/saturated image, and if I uncheck it I get a more "washed out" desaturated result. That's kinda bothers me, because I don't want to have different texture set for rendering engines and Marmoset, I want to use the same.
- TRANSPARENCY -
To be honest, I was a bit disappointed about the new dithered transparency, mainly because it doesn't really give me a sense of transparency, but more of a dissolving effect. Also, (correct me if I'm wrong) I couldn't find anywhere the Double Sided option for the material, so basically the inside of a transparent object becomes invisible, and that's not really what I would expect.
Another problem of transparency is it ignores completely the Gloss settings. I would expect a semi-transparent glossy material to have a blurred transparency, according to the Gloss setting.
- ON-SCREEN ICONS -
This is a minor thing, but I find quite annoying not being able to hide the on-screen icons, for example the Lights icons. When I save the image they go away, but most of the time I like to show my model in the real-time viewport, and those Icons are distracting.
- CHARACTER ANIMATION -
Is it no longer supported? Or is it a future feature?
- FOCUS PICK -
I remember an old Marmoset version that had focus picker. It was really usefull, why is it gone?
==== BUGS ==== (I apologize if they have been already reported)
- Copy/Paste of values doesn't work (for example, from Photoshop if I want to copy a web code of a color to paste into Marmoset, that doesn't work)
- Turntable resets the HDR background to the default rotation, then once stopped it goes back to the rotation I set.
- It's not possible to delete a material from the stack, if I select a material and hit delete, it just creates a new default one.
This are the problems/question I found so far, I will test it intensively in the upcoming days, meanwhile great work guys, it's really the best tool an artist can have to show off his work! Thank you!
Also some great posts in here, awesome work. :thumbup:
The Local Reflections are incredible. I just tried some tests with an old hair model I have that was made by Dani Garcia (also his character) I think there is huge potential here. Again very fast. These were rendered out at 24x Temporal AA. It would be nice to have upto 24x Temporal in the viewport, live for more powerful machines to use.
( custom HDR's from http://www.bobgroothuis.com/ )
also the new system for lighting is kinda great because you can grab the colors from the floors and walls and sort of fake radiosity and bouncing light although its not perfect it doesn't look nice
Warning. Some mild CG nudity!! :poly142:
When you select your normal map, you can switch from "Normal Map", to "Detail Normal Map", which allows you to add a detail normal map, on top of your regular normal map.
Thanks, I didn't notice that.
A couple of more thoughts:
- At the moment the fresnel is NOT occluded by the Ambient Occlusion, and that's annoying because it creates unwanted bright lines where is supposed to be occluded.
- The workflow for the eyes is a bit tricky. I have an inner geometry, with the eye texture, and an outside geometry for the reflection (and hopefully in the future refraction) but I cannot blend properly the two objects to keep both a strong reflection as well as the transparency. It would be nice to separate reflections from transparency. If anyone knows some trick to do proper eyes reflection, please tell me.
Anyway, I'm very pleased with the new shaders, they look really good!
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stefanobernardi mentioned that he tried Toolbag 2 on an older MacBook Pro with less than stellar results. Has anyone tried running it on newer portable hardware? Is it remotely usable on something like a Surface Pro?
Did a quick render of Sam Hatami's flame thrower, keep in mind it's a wip
I would like a way to apply post-process effects while seeing the whole screen, cause now when changing vignetting I have to tweak, hide ui, tweak, hide ui... and so on.
Yes, Toolbag 2 will be a separate purchase, it will not be a free upgrade for Toolbag 1 users. Exact pricing details have not been announced yet.
First off, thanks for the feeback! I'm a little confused by this last one, what do you mean by window size? You can set the resolution in the output options, do you mean a setting for aspect ratio?
Good catch, I've tested it on my end with another asset and get the same issue as well. I've got this logged as a bug now, thanks!
This looks great! Unfortunately we are not privy to how the Octane render handles its color space, so it will be very difficult to get an exact match.
The dithered order independent blending is probably not what you're looking for here. Its great for simple alpha blends like hair, but for more complex surfaces like glass etc you will probably want something different.
We will have a refraction option at some point which will provide more advanced options, though it may have issues with sorting as realtime implementations tend to.
Double sided is on the to-do list, just hasn't gotten in yet.
Animation is not currently supported. Animation will not be a day one feature but is something we will add as an update at some point. Its a really big, complex issue so its going to take some time to do well.
This should only be the case if you are deleting the sole material in the scene. For technical reason there always needs to be one material in the scene (to be applied to any meshes that are in the scene). If you have more than one material, deleting a material should not create another one, though if it does, let me know.
Awesome, thanks so much for the feedback!
This looks really cool! I'm curious, how is the hair done? Is this a bunch of hair planes w/ alpha or is the hair individually modeled strans?
Also I know you stated that exact pricing models haven't been figured out but will there be an option for existing TB1 users to upgrade to TB2 at a discounted price?
Looking great as always Lee. Unfortunately the secondary reflections got sort of busted with some recent changes we made (when the materials got re-ordered), that's something we'll look into fixing, you're right that we need more control over it.
As Drew mentions, detail normal maps are in there, but detail cavity maps are not. I will add that to the suggestion list here. Thanks!
This looks really cool, I'm especially impressed by how nice the hat and suit look. I would love to see a material breakdown there if you have the time.
Fresnel is not occluded by ambient occlusion. Ambient occlussion only occludes ambient (skylight) diffuse lighting.
Cavity maps however, occlude both ambient light, and specular reflections(including fresnel), you may be able to get what you're after by including the content you wish to mask out of the fresnel contribution into a cavity map.
The workflow for eyes is not ideal at this point. We will likely have a more custom solution specifically for eyes at some point in the future.
Toolbag 2.0 performance is tied directly to how good your GPU is. Unfortunately most older laptops and tablets have poor video cards.
I've ran it on an older Lenovo X220 with I5 and, I think Intel 4000 GPU. Its pretty slow on that sort of setup. It runs much better on my Sager with I7 and nvidia 675M, but is outpaced by pretty much any desktop pc with a recent mid-high end GPU.
I think the new Surface Pro 2 has intel 4000 GPU, so that is going to be about the bare minimum to run it, and performance will likely not be very good.
Toolbag 1 will continue to be maintained/supported but new features will not be added. All efforts to develop new features and functionality will be focused on Toolbag 2.
I'm sorry I can't comment on pricing information yet. Pricing and release dates should be announced soon.
Thanks for the quick response, EarthQuake! I wasn't expecting anything more than barely workable. I've got a desktop workstation at the house for the heavy lifting, but hate being chained to my desk. I've been pleasantly surprised with the performance of these newer Intel mobile chipsets in other content creation applications.
According to some quick research, the X220 uses the Intel HD 3000 GPU. Most benchmarks put the HD 4000 at about a 30-50% advantage over the HD 3000, so this revelation is somewhat promising.
I'd be happy to do some testing if you've got any more beta invites to give out. :icon15: