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TB2 beta thread

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  • seth.
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    seth. polycounter lvl 14
    EarthQuake wrote: »
    Hey dude, that is looking much improved with the new shader. I think its a bit desaturated though but that may be the lighting.

    yeah Its my maps rather than the lighting, I'm still working out how much colour you can get into the skin via the subdermal map
    EarthQuake wrote: »
    There is a toggle for light visibility now, actually for all objects in the scene list, to the right of each object is a little eyeball icon you can click to toggle vis.

    ahhh spotted, fantastic!
    EarthQuake wrote: »
    About the shadows, I'll have to check but I think the shadow blurring in a post process, possibly in screen space on the standard shadow data, which means it probably won't be possible for it to behave as you suggest. One thing you can try is to turn down shadow bluring in skin shader a bit and try turning up the light size/softness in the individual lights to soften them, which should respect the correct penumbra behavior.

    That seems like a more than fair soloution. I was being a bit daft with the sliders...can we have one that goes up to 11?

    I have found that the maps not loading in a saved scene is eliminated when I save to the desktop....so maybe its a length of file pathway issue?
    *EdIT* Just saw what Tits wrote, I guess that's not the answer then but just another part of the puzzle I guess.


    another old to new comparison today.

    comparison.jpg
    can't wait for you guys to add SoulMaps for eyes.

    so next gen :D
  • darknessbear
    Nice stuff! I'm so jealous everyone gets to play with this. The inclusion of a ONE BUTTON save sounds like a miracle from the skies, I cannot wait to try it. Throw me on a beta list... ;)
  • eof
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    eof polycounter lvl 16
    Here's my first test with TB2. New lighting and shading system is awesome! Thank you guys!
    My 2 cents:
    1.Could we get free rotation for transform gizmos?
    2.Layered normal maps with ability for tiling so I could use addititional skin pores texture on top of backed normalmap.
    Cheers
    Eugene
    marmoset1.jpg
  • Stromberg90
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    Stromberg90 polycounter lvl 11
    seth, looks great with the new skin shader :)

    eof: You can use detail normal maps for pores, even using a weight map for defining where on the model it appears.
  • MrHobo
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    MrHobo polycounter lvl 13
    EarthQuake wrote: »
    Could you expand on this a little? By default, all meshes have a material assigned to them (the default material). We've been thinking about some ways to make it a little more clear which materials are assigned to which mesh chunks, is that generally your issue here?

    I like to make all my materials right off the bat, name them and then drop them onto the right mesh chunk. Once everything is assigned I start adding the textures. Right now sometimes I loose track of what I have and have not assigned. Ultimately this is a really minor thing and it dawned on me that I could just tint my materials a color when I make them so I can see whats been applied, but I thought I would ask anyway.

    Also thanks for the response and it's great to hear that so much of what I asked is already being considered :)
  • joeriv
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    joeriv polycounter lvl 7
    Modelled something tonight to bake/texture this weekend.
    Just the highpoly with some basic materials for now.

    k989.png
    nwhs.png
  • [Deleted User]
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    [Deleted User] polycounter lvl 3
    Are there any plans to support rendering of images to separate passes for easier composition later?
  • Roepetoepa
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    Roepetoepa polycounter lvl 12
    Looks great, would love to join the fun.
    any news on the public beta ?
  • vickgaza
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    vickgaza polycounter lvl 6
    I`d love some render passes myself really. Better for compositing and presentations.
    Also an awesome feature would be storing multiple camera bookmarks, and the bookmarks be stored in the actual TBag scene save. My 2 cents:D Looks great so far pepps.
  • eof
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    eof polycounter lvl 16
    Stromberg90 - thanks, I found how to plug it.
    One more test for lighting/shading:

    marmoset2.jpg
  • joeriv
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    joeriv polycounter lvl 7
    Was doing some tests, makes me feel like I am doing something wrong:

    Wanted to test the tangentspace switch, but the 3dsmax wasn't giving the result I was expecting (but looks fine inside max)
    Then did another bake in Xnormal 3.17.16, normal map is looking as I would expect it to in PS.
    Converted the normal map in Handplane to maya 2012&2013.

    In all three cased I made sure to set the tangenspace to the correct one in marmoset.

    All 3 tangentspaces are giving me results like the left part.
    To really test it I used one smoothing group in the latest ones, the image is the worst part, but there are noticable errors/gradients in other parts.

    (right part is just a "normal" bake with sufficient SG splits to check it wasn't the mesh).
    z2c2.jpg
  • DarkStar
    This is a buy for me!!! when is it coming out?
  • irya4321
    Hi i am now learning 3d and maya and i am glad for joining this community and i am thinking that i can get many stuff and many ideas from this forum.
  • Krot_Art
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    Krot_Art polycounter lvl 7
    DarkStar wrote: »
    This is a buy for me!!! when is it coming out?

    +1
  • q40753416
  • EarthQuake
    Azkur wrote: »
    Earthquake i asked before but not sure you seen it, are you guys thinking about maybe adding anything in the realm of global illumination like the newer engines are doing? crysis 3 and bf 3 already use this if i am not wrong

    Hey, sorry if I missed that. Radiosity/global illumination is not something that will be a day one feature, but its something we are going to look into doing. From a technical perspective its a really huge undertaking and there are a variety of methods that we'll look at going forward.
  • EarthQuake
    Tits wrote: »
    Hey guys!

    I dunno if i'm the only one having issue with that. But almighty_gir send me the scene from back when we did that little hangout thing. He send it to me with all the texture and the scene in a Zip, Everything seems to work fine but the diffuse (albedo) are not there anymore and you need to put them back manually. The other map where still there.
    I didn't have that problem when saving my scene here at home, maybe some problem when transfering a scene to another pc?

    Yeah it seems like a few people are having some path/saving issues. Could you or Lee get me the file that fails to load the textures? I haven't been able to reproduce this yet even though multiple people seem to be having the issue.
    Other than that, the wireframe works great (yeah quad!) with a darker color, but when using white I got that result.

    Hmmm looks like maybe a bokeh+wireframe bug, I'll look into it. Thanks!
  • EarthQuake
    eof wrote: »
    Here's my first test with TB2. New lighting and shading system is awesome! Thank you guys!
    My 2 cents:
    1.Could we get free rotation for transform gizmos?
    2.Layered normal maps with ability for tiling so I could use addititional skin pores texture on top of backed normalmap.
    Cheers
    Eugene

    This is looking really nice! Thanks for the notes too.
    You can use detail normal maps for pores, even using a weight map for defining where on the model it appears.

    I assume he means multiple layers/detail normal maps to blend between various detail normal maps. Currently we do support 1 detail normal map with a texture to mask it as Stromberg mentions.

    More detail maps/layering/etc will likely come sometime down the road.
    MrHobo wrote: »
    I like to make all my materials right off the bat, name them and then drop them onto the right mesh chunk. Once everything is assigned I start adding the textures. Right now sometimes I loose track of what I have and have not assigned. Ultimately this is a really minor thing and it dawned on me that I could just tint my materials a color when I make them so I can see whats been applied, but I thought I would ask anyway.

    Also thanks for the response and it's great to hear that so much of what I asked is already being considered :)

    Ok cool, I think I understand your issue and we have some ideas to better visualize selected meshes and materials, though this is pretty low priority so for now sure when such features would be implemented.
  • EarthQuake
    mantragora wrote: »
    Are there any plans to support rendering of images to separate passes for easier composition later?
    vickgaza wrote: »
    I`d love some render passes myself really. Better for compositing and presentations.

    We do not currently support separate render passes (just standard image export with alpha for background/transparency mask). If there is a lot of interest for render passes its something we may look into.
    vickgaza wrote: »
    Also an awesome feature would be storing multiple camera bookmarks, and the bookmarks be stored in the actual TBag scene save. My 2 cents:D Looks great so far pepps.

    You can have as many camera objects in a Toolbag 2 scene as you like. Each camera object contains camera specific settings like DOF, FOV, and post FX.
  • EarthQuake
    Roepetoepa wrote: »
    Looks great, would love to join the fun.
    any news on the public beta ?
    DarkStar wrote: »
    This is a buy for me!!! when is it coming out?

    Sorry, but we do not have any official release dates or time frames yet.
  • EarthQuake
    joeriv wrote: »
    Was doing some tests, makes me feel like I am doing something wrong:

    Wanted to test the tangentspace switch, but the 3dsmax wasn't giving the result I was expecting (but looks fine inside max)
    Then did another bake in Xnormal 3.17.16, normal map is looking as I would expect it to in PS.
    Converted the normal map in Handplane to maya 2012&2013.

    In all three cased I made sure to set the tangenspace to the correct one in marmoset.

    All 3 tangentspaces are giving me results like the left part.
    To really test it I used one smoothing group in the latest ones, the image is the worst part, but there are noticable errors/gradients in other parts.

    (right part is just a "normal" bake with sufficient SG splits to check it wasn't the mesh).

    I was wondering how long it would take until someone noticed how broken the Max tangent space is. :poly124: This is a known issue actually, and just got fixed in our internal build it looks like. Xnormal still has some issues in build that is out in the wild (though its more accurate than the Max TS).

    I'm surprised to hear you didn't have any better luck with the Maya tangentspace though. From all of my testing, the Maya tangent space matches the Maya HQ viewport (which is about as good as tangent space maps get).

    If you want to dropbox me a link to the high, low, object space bake and handplane exported Maya bake I will be happy to take a look at it. In general, the Maya tangentspace is the most accurate in the build you have.
  • Tits
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    Tits mod
    By the way, don't know if i'm doing anything wrong but when I tried using a spotlight there was nothing letting me know in wich direction it was pointing. Everytime I had to turn the light in all directions and in very weird angle to finally manage to see it. Making it very hard to point it in a very efficient/precise manner.
  • EarthQuake
    Tits wrote: »
    By the way, don't know if i'm doing anything wrong but when I tried using a spotlight there was nothing letting me know in wich direction it was pointing. Everytime I had to turn the light in all directions and in very weird angle to finally manage to see it. Making it very hard to point it in a very efficient/precise manner.

    Yeah sorry about that, the GUI element for light direction simple isn't in there yet. That will be improved in a later version.
  • Jerc
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    Jerc interpolator
    Just encountered a weird bug, I'm surprised nobody noticed it yet.
    I was wondering why my roughness maps seemed so wrong, it looks like 8bit greyscale TGAs are offset when imported (even the thumbnail is). PNGs or other formats are fine but greyscale TGA import is buggy.
  • Computron
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    Computron polycounter lvl 7
    EarthQuake wrote: »
    Hey, sorry if I missed that. Radiosity/global illumination is not something that will be a day one feature, but its something we are going to look into doing. From a technical perspective its a really huge undertaking and there are a variety of methods that we'll look at going forward.

    Awesome! What methods, for example?
  • Stromberg90
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    Stromberg90 polycounter lvl 11
    Jerc: Really? I have been using greyscale maps myself, do you mean greyscale saved as rbg maps or set to greyscale in photoshop?
  • Jerc
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    Jerc interpolator
    Jerc: Really? I have been using greyscale maps myself, do you mean greyscale saved as rbg maps or set to greyscale in photoshop?

    True greyscales maps, with a single 8bit channel.
  • Stromberg90
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    Stromberg90 polycounter lvl 11
    Did you use the metalness map with that? cause I noticed when using that, the gloss worked differently than expected, I think that was more down to me then the maps though.

    I did try it out myself now with greyscale .tga and rgb .tga, and there is a "small" difference, you got a good eye to notice that :)

    Edit: Here is a image so people can see, top half is rgb and bottom half is greyscale.
    B5hAhzf.png
  • Jerc
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    Jerc interpolator
    The difference I was talking about ended up being a flip on the X axis of the texture, and I pinned it down to only happening with TGAs saved with our Substance Player. That's super weird, I guess there is something in the metadata of the texture that Toolbag2 doesn't like. I'll dig into it.
    The issue you are seeing seems to be more a shift in colors, maybe a linear/srgb thing ?

    Speaking about substance, here are a few substance related bugs I found:

    - If you load a substance and then replace one of the texture by a standard bitmap, it will still display it as a substance output and you won't have access to the texture properties popup.

    - Metallic and Roughness outputs from a substance won't plug automatically to the metalness map and the gloss map respectively.
    The usage you need to look for in the sbsar file for the bindings are "metallic" and "roughness".
  • Stromberg90
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    Stromberg90 polycounter lvl 11
    Glad you figured it out, I tried setting the linear and srbg in toolbag to see what happens, there is still the difference shown in the image between them.

    Also one other thing, when changing the fresnel setting on the plane, it does nothing at all, which it should do when looking at it from different angles.
  • bakaneko
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    bakaneko null
    Hi there
    Thanks to the marmoset team to let me play with the beta :)
    It's definitely a big update and the new system of lighting is awesome ! By the way, the skin shader is delicious.

    My first try is done with an old model created for the mass effect challenge. So i reused the textures and the result can probably be better. But it was perfect to try the new system of reflection on armor. I really like it !

    1. I have a bug with the texture loading. When i open my scene, all the slots are empty but it keeps the materials.
    2. The transform gizmo is not fonctional.
    3. A mask could be useful for reflexion, specialy with mirror mode.
    4. A way to have multiple shaders on a obj. ( With the ID material or mask )
    5. Like Eof says, layered material to add tiling textures
    6. Undo command :)

    ME_TB2_bakaneko_01.jpg


    Thanks again ! I'll post few others render and feedbacks soon.
  • MrHobo
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    MrHobo polycounter lvl 13
    Started working on something new too put TB2 through it's paces.
    mgWqxWf.jpg

    Will there be some way to manipulate pivots, or at least center them?
    Also would be great if a new camera was created from the same position as the current one.
  • Drew++
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    Drew++ polycounter lvl 14
    MrHobo wrote: »
    Will there be some way to manipulate pivots, or at least center them?

    I like this idea. Also maybe a reset button on the movement, and rotation transform; so we don't have to type "0.0" in each box, for each object to reset the transformation.
  • Stromberg90
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    Stromberg90 polycounter lvl 11
    I second the reset button and having a way to manipulate pivots.
  • maddam
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    maddam polycounter lvl 8
    +1 and be able to scale the object would be great too.
  • Neox
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    Neox godlike master sticky
    Finally i found some time to test it. very cool update compared to the old marmoset.
    So far my biggest issue is that the alpha channels are really borked up o get a lot of tiny errors

    here is the resulting alpha, it doesn't matter if i export as tga, png or psd

    alpha_issue.jpg

    interesting, i just rendered a back shot (and man the skin is sexy) and it worked as it should, besides the AO or something still beeing slightly visible. very strange

    i'll upload my result once i added the postwork.

    aaand with particle action

    warlock_golem_06.jpg
  • slosh
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    slosh hero character
    Is there a way to join this beta?
  • Turchik
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    Turchik polycounter lvl 4
    After looking through the other posts I didn't see anyone ask this question. Maybe because they know better : ).

    I was wondering if Marmoset would possibly be able to publish to web like other game engines, or have its own viewer, or an export to a 3d web viewer like verold, sketchfab, or p3d? Obviously keeping it a PBR renderer would be key and I didn't know if this would be possible at this point.

    Other thoughts would be to support Quicktime VR or similar rendering support. Since TB2 already does turntables, it would just need to do them at various angles. Although I've never actually assembled one of these myself I assume other software is required?

    LODs would be nice as well. I assume at this point, having not tested the software, they could be exported separately and drug into the scene together, and turned on/off?

    Keep up the good work!
  • Fingus
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    Fingus polycounter lvl 11
    Well you could use Marmoset Skyshop in Unity and make a web player build. It's Toolbag1 tech though, so a lot of the sexy stuff like SSR and the skin shader aren't present, unless you implement that separately in Unity.

    http://www.marmoset.co/skyshop
  • EarthQuake
    Computron wrote: »
    Awesome! What methods, for example?

    Sorry, I can't really give you any specifics, all of our internal discussions on the topic have been preliminary at this point. Again I want to stress that if we do add a radiosity/GI solution this would be added at a later date and not a day one feature, so I don't want to start speculating on the specifics.

    If you have a preferred method or something please feel free to make a suggestion.
  • EarthQuake
    Jerc wrote: »
    The difference I was talking about ended up being a flip on the X axis of the texture, and I pinned it down to only happening with TGAs saved with our Substance Player. That's super weird, I guess there is something in the metadata of the texture that Toolbag2 doesn't like. I'll dig into it.
    The issue you are seeing seems to be more a shift in colors, maybe a linear/srgb thing ?

    Speaking about substance, here are a few substance related bugs I found:

    - If you load a substance and then replace one of the texture by a standard bitmap, it will still display it as a substance output and you won't have access to the texture properties popup.

    - Metallic and Roughness outputs from a substance won't plug automatically to the metalness map and the gloss map respectively.
    The usage you need to look for in the sbsar file for the bindings are "metallic" and "roughness".

    Hey Jerc,

    Thanks for continuing to check all of the substance stuff.

    I've noticed the same issue with files out of World Machine, they come in upside down, but simply re-saving them in photoshop fixes the issue. So its possible that this has something to do with how you guys are writing the files.

    I'll make note of it anyway in case its an issue on our end, and the other issues too.
  • EarthQuake
    Glad you figured it out, I tried setting the linear and srbg in toolbag to see what happens, there is still the difference shown in the image between them.

    Also one other thing, when changing the fresnel setting on the plane, it does nothing at all, which it should do when looking at it from different angles.

    I just tried and fresnel does appear to have effect on a simple plane, try this:

    Set spec intensity to 0, and diffuse to black, so all you're seeing is fresnel. Now adjust the fresnel.

    Another note: fresnel is masked by gloss content, so the rougher the surface, the less fresnel.
  • EarthQuake
    bakaneko wrote: »
    Hi there
    Thanks to the marmoset team to let me play with the beta :)
    It's definitely a big update and the new system of lighting is awesome ! By the way, the skin shader is delicious.

    My first try is done with an old model created for the mass effect challenge. So i reused the textures and the result can probably be better. But it was perfect to try the new system of reflection on armor. I really like it !

    1. I have a bug with the texture loading. When i open my scene, all the slots are empty but it keeps the materials.
    2. The transform gizmo is not fonctional.

    Hi, first off thank you for the feedback. Could you be a little more specific about the issue with the transform gizmo?
    3. A mask could be useful for reflexion, specialy with mirror mode.
    The specular map masks reflections in Bling-phong mode and Mirror reflection mode. Unless you mean something different?
    4. A way to have multiple shaders on a obj. ( With the ID material or mask )
    5. Like Eof says, layered material to add tiling textures
    6. Undo command :)

    Thanks again ! I'll post few others render and feedbacks soon.

    Awesome, please do!
  • Stromberg90
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    Stromberg90 polycounter lvl 11
    EQ: Maybe I have learned about fresnel in the wrong way, but should it not modulate the specular even if the intensity is set to 1?
    The way I see it fresnel is part of the specular not a separate component, that's wrong?
  • EarthQuake
    Neox wrote: »
    Finally i found some time to test it. very cool update compared to the old marmoset.
    So far my biggest issue is that the alpha channels are really borked up o get a lot of tiny errors

    here is the resulting alpha, it doesn't matter if i export as tga, png or psd

    interesting, i just rendered a back shot (and man the skin is sexy) and it worked as it should, besides the AO or something still beeing slightly visible. very strange

    i'll upload my result once i added the postwork.

    aaand with particle action

    Sweet!

    Yeah there are some alpha bugs, we've got them logged on our bug list. It looks like two issues, one is the random hot pixels like you see, and another is SSR getting baked into the alpha mask as well (the AO looking thing probably)

    Thanks
  • EarthQuake
    MrHobo wrote: »
    Started working on something new too put TB2 through it's paces.
    Will there be some way to manipulate pivots, or at least center them?
    Also would be great if a new camera was created from the same position as the current one.

    Its not on the official todo list but object pivot editing is on our suggestion list, I'll add a few more votes to it from everyone here.

    New camera at current position is a good idea too, added to the suggestion list as well.
  • EarthQuake
    EQ: Maybe I have learned about fresnel in the wrong way, but should it not modulate the specular even if the intensity is set to 1?
    The way I see it fresnel is part of the specular not a separate component, that's wrong?

    That's an interesting question, as far as I know with our implementation Fresnel is a separate component that can be adjusted independantly. Unfortunately Jeff is on vacation atm so I can't bug him about it, we had many philosophical discussions on Fresnel behavior and came up with the implementation that we have now, which I think works quite well.

    I'll try to remember to ask him about it when he gets back.
  • Stromberg90
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    Stromberg90 polycounter lvl 11
    That's cool, just a bit different from what I would expect, would be nice to hear other peoples opinion on this :)
  • joeriv
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    joeriv polycounter lvl 7
    Just had a go at texturing in TB2.
    Some thoughts:

    -Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but I miss auto-reloading of a mesh or it updating when you re-open the file.

    -I always found texturing in PS a bit akward to get base values, because there are always some waiting times.
    Kinda wish there the sliders could go above 1, or there was a way when you imported a HP and put some materials on it to export all the diffuse/spec/gloss values of the materials you made to a single text file (in rbg) or an image that you can colorpick from.

    -Everytime you change the scene from the original start scene it asks if you want to save it, but when you make changes to your current scene and close the program it never does.

    -With all these metals, and looking at my diffuse, I can really see how good a metalness map is, so that is next on the to try list.

    edit:

    DOF and taking a screenshot, the DOF is always "shorter", so you also have to up the slider just a notch, and take a screenshot to see if it is right.
    And when the DOF falls between a certain value (or the bokeh size) where there is still a good noticable effect in the viewport, it's as good as completely gone in the screenshot.
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    joeriv wrote: »
    -I always found texturing in PS a bit akward to get base values, because there are always some waiting times.
    Kinda wish there the sliders could go above 1, or there was a way when you imported a HP and put some materials on it to export all the diffuse/spec/gloss values of the materials you made to a single text file (in rbg) or an image that you can colorpick from.

    I'm sure EQ will jump in and correct anything i say that's incorrect here. but i'll give it a go anyway.

    you can set the sliders to whatever numerical value you want to, by simply typing that value into the box.

    - BUT -

    in a physical workflow that's not needed. when you take the specular/reflectance to 1, that's the maximum it can go to. you need to be aware that if you push above that you will start to see artifacts. the same is true for gloss, as 1 is an "infinite" highight, meaning that pushing it past 1 could again cause artifacts or your light reflections could simply disappear.
1568101117
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